The Fattest Leech

Wood Dancers and Bran and Pinocchio???

56 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, GloubieBoulga said:

 

I like very much your way to synthetize LF character ! LF, the crow/bird/singer character on the tree, who whispers the tonality, who stays hidden behind the leaves, and whom all child dreams were broken

 

15 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I've long held to the belief that Littlefinger's goal is not to sit the IT but to be the puppetmaster behind the throne. He wants to make everyone dance while he pulls the strings. LF is actually an interesting parallel to Bran. In a way LF is Pinocchio too because he grew up wanting to be a "real boy" in the sense of wanting to be one of the upper crust of Westerosi nobility. He lies so much his nose would be a forest by now if this was literal. He was the puppet, dependent on those above him, his life determined by which strings they pulled, and when he tried to break free, he ended up broken. He's spent his whole life trying to prove he's not broken, but it's the pain from the past that still drives him, and he smashed his cricket...er, conscience, long ago.

I agree with Gloubie, that's a great interpretation of LF as a parallel to Bran.  When Littlefinger tells Sansa 'surely Winterfell has withstood fiercer enemies than me?' it's another of his facetious statements with slimy, iridescent depths.  The truth is Winterfell has never encountered as fearsome a foe as the current Bael-ish, his ultimate goal being to extinguish the Stark line utterly, occupy Winterfell and Riverrun, and finally get to kill Brandon Stark.  He's more dangerous from a Stark perspective than Euron!  After all, as you point out -- in your rather generous interpretation of his psyche -- his life's ambition has been to rectify the narcissistic wound suffered in his childhood, represented by the blistering humiliation suffered via the physical defeat at the hands of his nemesis, the strong guy, Brandon Stark.  He got out of that bind by appealing to the soft hearts of gullible women who intervened to save him from certain death; and as a reward for their kindness ended up getting themselves killed (directly and indirectly by him) down the line as a consequence of their mushy hearts.  Now -- unbeknownst to him, which might be a blessing for the Starks -- Brandon Stark is still alive rising harder and stronger than ever; the hearts of women he used to seduce with ease are harder (case in point: Lady Stoneheart); and Sansa the current embodiment of the Lady Forlorn he's cornered on the chess board may have a sharper edge than foreseen...

P.S.  A major difference between Littlefinger and Pinocchio is that Littlefinger would never sacrifice himself for someone he loved, because he's incapable of both (love and therefore self-sacrifice).  I'm referring to Pinocchio being willing to be swallowed by the whale in order to rescue his father Geppetto (being in the belly of the Leviathan is akin to skinchanging Hodor, the tree, or another object, like a dragon, moon or meteor for example; jumping into the sea also aligns with my green sea/ green see pun).  What's more, despite his obvious brokenness, LF never had a 'cricket.'  What makes Bran so interesting is that he might still have his!  Will Bran go the abominable way of Varamyr and Littlefinger -- and give in to the lure of absolute power -- or will he be capable of the self-sacrifice required in aid of another, when the time comes?

Obviously, I'd prefer the latter outcome.  I like to imagine that Bran too took a leaf from his childhood.  Unlike Littlefinger, he wasn't always broken; and even when he was broken, others took care of him, even giving their lives for him.  When he didn't catch a fish, Jon gave him his so he wouldn't feel bad.  When Ned and Theon wanted to kill the wolves, in response to Bran's pain and to save the wolves, Jon gave up his right to have a wolf of his own and symbolically his right to affiliate himself with the sigil, and be a Stark.  All of this was noted by Bran, since it's in his POV we learn of Jon's supreme kindness -- there's no other character as kind to others, even to his own detriment.  While some may read this as foreshadowing of Jon's Christlike symbolism and future sacrifice alone, I read it as Jon having modeled brotherhood, empathy, love, generosity, and high principle for the rest of his siblings, especially Bran who has a tendency to be a little wayward.  When the time comes, however, I think in return Bran, according to the example he's been given by Jon and others, unlike Littlefinger, will choose Jon and lay down his own life for his friends.

Edited by ravenous reader

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, GloubieBoulga said:

 

I like very much your way to synthetize LF character ! LF, the crow/bird/singer character on the tree, who whispers the tonality, who stays hidden behind the leaves, and whom all child dreams were broken


.

Thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

 

I agree with Gloubie, that's a great interpretation of LF as a parallel to Bran.  When Littlefinger tells Sansa 'surely Winterfell has withstood fiercer enemies than me?' it's another of his facetious statements with slimy, iridescent depths.  The truth is Winterfell has never encountered as fearsome a foe as the current Bael-ish, his ultimate goal being to extinguish the Stark line utterly, occupy Winterfell and Riverrun, and finally get to kill Brandon Stark.  He's more dangerous from a Stark perspective than Euron!  After all, as you point out -- in your rather generous interpretation of his psyche -- his life's ambition has been to rectify the narcissistic wound suffered in his childhood, represented by the blistering humiliation suffered via the physical defeat at the hands of his nemesis, the strong guy, Brandon Stark.  He got out of that bind by appealing to the soft hearts of gullible women who intervened to save him from certain death; and as a reward for their kindness ended up getting themselves killed (directly and indirectly by him) down the line as a consequence of their mushy hearts.  Now -- unbeknownst to him, which might be a blessing for the Starks -- Brandon Stark is still alive rising harder and stronger than ever; the hearts of women he used to seduce with ease are harder (case in point: Lady Stoneheart); and Sansa the current embodiment of the Lady Forlorn he's cornered on the chess board may have a sharper edge than foreseen...

P.S.  A major difference between Littlefinger and Pinocchio is that Littlefinger would never sacrifice himself for someone he loved, because he's incapable of both (love and therefore self-sacrifice).  I'm referring to Pinocchio being willing to be swallowed by the whale in order to rescue his father Geppetto (being in the belly of the Leviathan is akin to skinchanging Hodor, the tree, or another object, like a dragon, moon or meteor for example; jumping into the sea also aligns with my green sea/ green see pun).  What's more, despite his obvious brokenness, LF never had a 'cricket.'  What makes Bran so interesting is that he might still have his!  Will Bran go the abominable way of Varamyr and Littlefinger -- and give in to the lure of absolute power -- or will he be capable of the self-sacrifice required in aid of another, when the time comes?

Obviously, I'd prefer the latter outcome.  I like to imagine that Bran too took a leaf from his childhood.  Unlike Littlefinger, he wasn't always broken; and even when he was broken, others took care of him, even giving their lives for him.  When he didn't catch a fish, Jon gave him his so he wouldn't feel bad.  When Ned and Theon wanted to kill the wolves, in response to Bran's pain and to save the wolves, Jon gave up his right to have a wolf of his own and symbolically his right to affiliate himself with the sigil, and be a Stark.  All of this was noted by Bran, since it's in his POV we learn of Jon's supreme kindness -- there's no other character as kind to others, even to his own detriment.  While some may read this as foreshadowing of Jon's Christlike symbolism and future sacrifice alone, I read it as Jon having modeled brotherhood, empathy, love, generosity, and high principle for the rest of his siblings, especially Bran who has a tendency to be a little wayward.  When the time comes, however, I think in return Bran, according to the example he's been given by Jon and others, unlike Littlefinger, will choose Jon and lay down his own life for his friends.

Brilliant turn of phrase there!

Oh it's not a full analysis by any means. LF has clearly gone beyond just compensating for his broken heart and now wants to be the power behind the powers that be. Since his goal is entirely selfish, he'll never be a real boy. The kind of "real" he wanted would never make him happy anyway. He'll be the the same wooden boy, with a hollow place he thought would be filled.

Ah, the Blue Fairy fixing Pinocchio's nose problem for him. 

Probably not, but if he does fall in love with Sansa he might surprise us...and himself. Right now it certainly doesn't look hopeful. This is where Bran has the advantage over LF because he has a better background. Mothers may be a difference in this. Bran seems to have been Cat's favorite, and we never hear a thing about LF's mother except her name.

Puns rock. I'd say the cave and possibly becoming a tree make a better belly of the whale comparison, but given that Pinocchio goes there to save another, and Bran is doing this (whether he knows it or not) to save the world, it still works.

We don't really know that. It's easy to assume it, but even LF was an innocent child once. He may have had a cricket.

Good question, and it put me in mind of my wighting theory. LF got lost in the pursuit of his own "real boy" status. Bran could face a temptation beyond his own abilities. Don't know if you're familiar with my Wighting Theory (heavily inspired by another poster whose identity I have yet to discover), but it posits that living people can voluntarily choose to be "wighted" and this is basically what happened with Night's King. Now the dead wights are reanimated through the power of the Others, or the power behind them. What if Bran learns that if he allows himself to be live-wighted, he could walk again? Bloodraven can't offer him that, which either mans BR can't do it, or knows how but considers the cost too great (loss of humanity maybe?) and this implies either honesty or decency on the part of BR. But do the Others have any such humanity when they aren't even human? They have their own ideas of honor, but I doubt they'd balk at recruiting someone with Bran's powers. Imagine the Others with living soldiers on their side as well as the dead. This has potential to get really scary. And while Bran probably can escape the cave at some point he might never be able to escape this kind of devil's bargain.

That entire last paragraph highlights another advantage Bran has over LF...family. Bran had siblings, and his father right there with him. LF was an only child so far as we know, and was sent to a stranger's castle where he was always an outsider, always had to be on his best behavior so as not to disgrace his father or inconvenience Lord Hoster. His own consciousness of being below the Tully's on the social scale prevented him from forging family-like bonds the way Theon did with Robb...and LF wasn't even a hostage. The bonds of family may be what saves Bran and gets him back to being a real boy. I certainly hope so, because if my previous paragraph is possible we may see Jon having to kill Bran instead of dying to save him and Westeros.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wowwy! So many new comments here. I can't get to all of them at the moment because I am between work and running off to a game in a few minutes, but I will go over them and respond to more later. It took me only 50 weeks to get to page 3 in this thread :lol: Thanks guys :cheers:

16 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

 

@The Fattest Leech is there a table of contents for that book of Italian folk tales? I've spent years looking (when I remember) for a book of Italian Fairy Tales that my family had when I was a kid, with no luck. Now I'm hoping to find any of the stories it had in other books.

It does have a table of contents. Let me know which ones you are looking for and I will give it a search. That book is sitting right next to me as I type.

16 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Great thread, by the way.

Thanks. I never thought it really would lead to anything other than a couple of chance themes, but I may have undersold that idea to myself.

16 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

On to other fairy tales...the Humpty Dumpty for Patchface got me thinking of Shireen as Alice who is in danger from Mel as the Queen of Hearts. I hope Arya as TLM doesn't end up losing her tongue...which puts me in mind of Varys' little birds, Ser Ilyn Payne, and Euron's crew.

Holy Feathered Cows!!!! I always had this feeling that Mel's next mess up was going to be a big one. In her efforts to reach her Azor Nirvana, she is going to destroy some things, or people. Queen of Hearts. Perfect :wub: I actually think Selyse will have a hand in it as well.

Arya will keep her tongue :P, but she may have to sacrifice something else. Not sure what yet. I have always wanted to write up a comparison to that story as well, but I never see it getting past two or three fans that will act to just roadblock any additional conversation. That is truly a bittersweet story.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Wowwy! So many new comments here. I can't get to all of them at the moment because I am between work and running off to a game in a few minutes, but I will go over them and respond to more later. It took me only 50 weeks to get to page 3 in this thread :lol: Thanks guys :cheers:

It does have a table of contents. Let me know which ones you are looking for and I will give it a search. That book is sitting right next to me as I type.

Thanks. I never thought it really would lead to anything other than a couple of chance themes, but I may have undersold that idea to myself.

Holy Feathered Cows!!!! I always had this feeling that Mel's next mess up was going to be a big one. In her efforts to reach her Azor Nirvana, she is going to destroy some things, or people. Queen of Hearts. Perfect :wub:I actually think Selyse will have a hand in it as well.

Arya will keep her tongue :P, but she may have to sacrifice something else. Not sure what yet. I have always wanted to write up a comparison to that story as well, but I never see it getting past two or three fans that will act to just roadblock any additional conversation. That is truly a bittersweet story.

Alas I cannot remember the titles. One had a girl named Scioccolone. I'm pretty sure I spelled that wrong, but if you spot a similar name in the title of one there's a good chance that it's the same story.

Me too. Though I hope she'll offer herself first on the basis of her Gardener blood. Wasn't sure if Selyse would have enough of a roll to merit inclusion as half of the Queen of Hearts though.

Maybe part of it will be flipped. Gendry seems to rather long to be "part of her world" to paraphrase a song from the Disney version.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/19/2016 at 0:57 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

The fox and the cat- Theon is the cat and Reek/Ramsay is the fox

  • Both are depicted as con-men, who lead Pinocchio astray and unsuccessfully attempt to murder him.
  • The pair pretend to sport disabilities; the Fox lameness (Reek/Ramsay) and the Cat blindness. (Theon)
  • The Fox is depicted as the more intelligent of the two, with the Cat (Theon) usually limiting itself to repeating the Fox's words.
  • The pair catches and hangs Pinocchio from a tree. Theon and Reek hang the miller's boys from Winterfell.

Great topic! I have not read the whole OP yet, nor the ensuing comments, but had to comment on the above. In Pinocchio, while he's hanging from the tree, "a tempestuous northerly wind began to blow and roar angrily, and it beat the poor puppet from side to side, making him swing violently, like the clatter of a bell ringing for a wedding. And the swinging gave him atrocious spasms...His breath failed him and he could say no more. He shut his eyes, opened his mouth, stretched his legs, gave a long shudder, and hung stiff and insensible." This could link the cold winds in the North to Bran.

Edited by Feather Crystal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Great topic! I have not read the whole OP yet, nor the ensuing comments, but had to comment on the above. In Pinocchio, while he's hanging from the tree, "a tempestuous northerly wind began to blow and roar angrily, and it beat the poor puppet from side to side, making him swing violently, like the clatter of a bell ringing for a wedding. And the swinging gave him atrocious spasms...His breath failed him and he could say no more. He shut his eyes, opened his mouth, stretched his legs, gave a long shudder, and hung stiff and insensible." This could link the cold winds in the North to Bran.

Thanks for the kind words.

This is just a fun little topic that every time I think it’s lost to time, it pops up again :D

Bran is my favorite Stark, for sure, so I can’t wait to read the ideas of  another savvy poster such as yourself. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Thanks for the kind words.

This is just a fun little topic that every time I think it’s lost to time, it pops up again :D

Bran is my favorite Stark, for sure, so I can’t wait to read the ideas of  another savvy poster such as yourself. 

Thanks for the props! 

I read the SSM where you discussed Pinocchio, but didn't realize it was you! You lucky girl! I would have loved to have been at the coffee klatch!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/19/2016 at 0:57 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

The term Humpty Dumpty is actually a phrase used to describe a drunk person. Humpty Dumpty was not ever an egg until later versions where the riddle was turned into a child's nursery rhyme. It was a riddle first about a drunk man who falls down and the idea that you can never help a lackwit such as that.... and isn't this how most people treat Patchface?!?!?!! In Through the Looking Glass, HD provides riddles and speaks "backwards" by celebrating his un-birthday.

  • Chapter Six – Humpty Dumpty: After crossing yet another brook into the sixth rank, Alice immediately encounters Humpty Dumpty, who, besides celebrating his unbirthday, provides his own translation of the strange terms in "Jabberwocky". In the process, he introduces Alice (and the reader) to the concept of portmanteau words, before his inevitable fall.

Two of the earlier HD riddles are:

  1. Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall,

    Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.
    Four-score Men and Four-score more,

    Could not make Humpty Dumpty where he was before.
  2. Humpty Dumpty lay in a beck.
    With all his sinews around his neck;
    Forty Doctors and forty wrights
    Couldn't put Humpty Dumpty to rights!
    • A beck is a small creek or waterside. Hmmm, where was Patcface found, and wasn't he drunk/drowned in sea water???

*not sure who to credit for some of the HD connections, because when I tried before in another thread, I was told that that poster did not write it??? So, partial credit to another random poster

I might be your random poster regarding Humpty Dumpty...at least I made reference to him when I wrote my original OP regarding mirrored inversions that compared the Titled Chapters as being Jabberwocky:

Some of this project was inspired by another book about a reflected world of inversions. Through the Looking Glass, and What Alice Found There is the sequel novel to Lewis Carroll’s Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland and was written in 1871. Alice reenters a fantastical world by climbing through a mirror into the world that she can see beyond. 

Interestingly Alice is playing with a white kitten named Snowdrop and a black kitten called Kitty, both the offspring of Dinah, Alice’s cat when she ponders what the world would be like on the other side of the mirror’s reflection. She climbs up onto the fireplace mantel to poke at the mirror and discovers that she is able to step through it to an alternate world. She finds a book of poetry named Jabberwocky, whose reversed print can only be read by holding it up to the mirror. If the series ASOIAF is Jabberwocky, then the goal of these essays is to see if we can translate the past by holding it up to the mirror.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I might be your random poster regarding Humpty Dumpty...

I will happily go back and give credit and your link.

50 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

at least I made reference to him when I wrote my original OP regarding mirrored inversions that compared the Titled Chapters as being Jabberwocky:

Some of this project was inspired by another book about a reflected world of inversions. Through the Looking Glass, and What Alice Found There is the sequel novel to Lewis Carroll’s Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland and was written in 1871. Alice reenters a fantastical world by climbing through a mirror into the world that she can see beyond. 

Interestingly Alice is playing with a white kitten named Snowdrop and a black kitten called Kitty, both the offspring of Dinah, Alice’s cat when she ponders what the world would be like on the other side of the mirror’s reflection. She climbs up onto the fireplace mantel to poke at the mirror and discovers that she is able to step through it to an alternate world. She finds a book of poetry named Jabberwocky, whose reversed print can only be read by holding it up to the mirror. If the series ASOIAF is Jabberwocky, then the goal of these essays is to see if we can translate the past by holding it up to the mirror.

 

Nice, Nice, Nice!!! I skimmed a bunch, and am going to click back and read more in a second, but wanted to point out that the mirror idea as the Wall and being "under the sea"/reverse image is also used in other GRRM stories where the main protag is a Jon archetype. I can find some quotes to add a little later if you want me to. Sometimes it is the reflection in water that acts as a mirror (the frozen mirror water-Wall in ASOAIF version), in one story in particular it is an actual wall of mirrors. Good stuff.

A few months back I came across this mini-doc about Lewis Carroll and it made my brain spin and spin with ideas. If you have about an hour and are interested, here it is to watch:

Video description:

ALICE IN WONDERLAND is said to be the most quoted book in print, second only to The Bible, with a passionate army of fans who regularly congregate around the world to celebrate its rich and playful world. But what of its creator, the mild-mannered and unassuming Oxford University Math Don, Charles Lutwidge Dodgson, aka. Lewis Carroll? Famed not only for his wonderful stories, Carroll is also known for his ambiguous relationship with the young girl who inspired his most beloved creation, Alice Liddell, a seemingly innocent infatuation that he documented in his pioneering photography. With contributions from the likes of thespian Richard E. Grant, social commentator Will Self and author Philip Pullman, at once adoring and provocative this documentary casts a conflicted eye over the creation of Wonderland. Pouring through historical evidence and stories passed down through generations, hear the tale of Carroll’s first encounter with the three Liddell girls and the first telling of Alice’s tumble down the rabbit hole one summer’s afternoon in a boat upon the River Thames. Documentary first broadcast in 2015.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I will happily go back and give credit and your link.

Nice, Nice, Nice!!! I skimmed a bunch, and am going to click back and read more in a second, but wanted to point out that the mirror idea as the Wall and being "under the sea"/reverse image is also used in other GRRM stories where the main protag is a Jon archetype. I can find some quotes to add a little later if you want me to. Sometimes it is the reflection in water that acts as a mirror (the frozen mirror water-Wall in ASOAIF version), in one story in particular it is an actual wall of mirrors. Good stuff.

A few months back I came across this mini-doc about Lewis Carroll and it made my brain spin and spin with ideas. If you have about an hour and are interested, here it is to watch:

Video description:

ALICE IN WONDERLAND is said to be the most quoted book in print, second only to The Bible, with a passionate army of fans who regularly congregate around the world to celebrate its rich and playful world. But what of its creator, the mild-mannered and unassuming Oxford University Math Don, Charles Lutwidge Dodgson, aka. Lewis Carroll? Famed not only for his wonderful stories, Carroll is also known for his ambiguous relationship with the young girl who inspired his most beloved creation, Alice Liddell, a seemingly innocent infatuation that he documented in his pioneering photography. With contributions from the likes of thespian Richard E. Grant, social commentator Will Self and author Philip Pullman, at once adoring and provocative this documentary casts a conflicted eye over the creation of Wonderland. Pouring through historical evidence and stories passed down through generations, hear the tale of Carroll’s first encounter with the three Liddell girls and the first telling of Alice’s tumble down the rabbit hole one summer’s afternoon in a boat upon the River Thames. Documentary first broadcast in 2015.

If you truly hadn't read my OP before, I don't want to claim any credit. Maybe someone else also wrote about HD?

Anyways - I love your comments about the Wall being a mirror, because I need to keep reminding myself to say "mirror" instead of inverted or inversions, because it's much more descriptive and imaginative to keep referring to a gigantic mirror. I was thinking that the mirrored reflections were due to something being done or undone or unraveled to a/the wards on the Wall, and in one of my essays I discuss Victarion's memories of a "squeaky hinge". I'll try to stay off that topic here, because I don't want to derail your thread, but maybe you'll come over to HoBaw and comment on some of my crazy ideas? 

Thank you for the link. I will def watch dat!

I promise to read through the comments next. I'm sure there's much, much more to discuss about Branocchio!

Edited by Feather Crystal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

If you truly hadn't read my OP before, I don't want to claim any credit. Maybe someone else also wrote about HD?

Cross my heart I had not seen your essay before. When I first clicked your link, I thought I was at the Last Hearth site, and then I was like "nope, I am lost :P", because I was not aware of the HoBW site you are on. (sorry to the mods there)

However, I always find it rather interesting and telling when two readers find such similar clues independently of one another. I gave you credit and added your link to the main post- it's not an issue with me. If it pops up again with another poster, then I will add them too.

2 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Anyways - I love your comments about the Wall being a mirror, because I need to keep reminding myself to say "mirror" instead of inverted or inversions, because it's much more descriptive and imaginative to keep referring to a gigantic mirror. I was thinking that the mirrored reflections were due to something being done or undone or unraveled to a/the wards on the Wall,

Ooh, Feather, allow me a little time to get some quotes from other GRRM stories. I am not claiming he is copying himself at all, just that he is comfortable with his own themes he has worked out.

2 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

and in one of my essays I discuss Victarion's memories of a "squeaky hinge". I'll try to stay off that topic here, because I don't want to derail your thread, but maybe you'll come over to HoBaw and comment on some of my crazy ideas? 

What is this "on topic" idea you speak of??? If you have a link, share it, if not, feel free to add a post-it note here.

2 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Thank you for the link. I will def watch dat!

I promise to read through the comments next. I'm sure there's much, much more to discuss about Branocchio!

That video is really good, both in the story and the visuals. I may watch it again later this evening.

Brannocchio has truly evolved in to more than my brain first hiccuped out. Go for it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

What is this "on topic" idea you speak of??? If you have a link, share it, if not, feel free to add a post-it note here.

I just meant that I wouldn't derail your thread by discussing my theories about Victarion, the squeaky hinge, and the connections to the Wall and it's warding here. It really has nothing to do with your OP on Branocchio.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

A few months back I came across this mini-doc about Lewis Carroll and it made my brain spin and spin with ideas. If you have about an hour and are interested, here it is to watch:

THAT was disturbing! I think the guy was a pedophile!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/14/2018 at 10:51 AM, Feather Crystal said:

THAT was disturbing! I think the guy was a pedophile!

I have to admit that while I am still  tad unsure (some "norms" have changed), I would not be totally honest with myself if I did not admit that real possibility. :unsure:

Other than that, I found the help of the Liddle and a few other ideas rather interesting IF they are, indeed, a carry-over influence from that story in to our own Bran the story teller arc in ASOIAF.

 

Quote

Ooh, Feather, allow me a little time to get some quotes from other GRRM stories. I am not claiming he is copying himself at all, just that he is comfortable with his own themes he has worked out.


Ok, sorry for the delayed response to you. I have been (still sorta am) sick with the flu. Not sure where you live, but the flu here in the US this season has been particularly nasty.

As far as mirrors are concerned, GRRM uses them A LOT in many stories. So many that I cannot quote them all. Sometimes just as that innocuous "checked herself in a mirror before leaving" type of way, but when they mean something to the character's arc, they really mean something, and it is not always pleasant. This very much goes hand in hand with the reflection of one's self, including being caught on a darkling plain/stream. Right now our main players in the story are all caught in some sort of darkling plain/stream- Dany in the dark along the Skahazadan, Bran in the cave/sunless sea with the possible escape river nearby, and Jon will most likely take a trip there in the next book as he heals from his attack. These are all "kill the child and let the adult be born" moments- and many are "be careful of what you wish for" moments. The thing is we already see how Dany comes out on the other side. She has accepted her family words of "fire and blood" and eats with her dragon. Jon and Bran are next for us to read about.

I will start with what Goerge, himself, has to say about mirrors and reflections in his own words. With the other book quotes, I will just use the most pertinent parts to try and not spoil any future reading for anyone, so feel free to ask me any questions later if you want.

  • “Bad horror stories concern themselves with six ways to kill a vampire, and graphic accounts of how the rats ate Billy’s genitalia. Good horror stories are about larger things. About hope and despair. About love and hatred, lust and jealousy. About friendship and adolescence and sexuality and rage, loneliness and alienation and psychosis, courage and cowardice, the human mind and body and spirit under stress and in agony, the human heart in unending conflict with itself. Good horror stories make us look at our reflections in dark distorting mirrors, where we glimpse things that disturb us, things that we did not really want to look at. Horror looks into the shadows of the human soul, at the fears and rages that live within us all. “But darkness is meaningless without light, and horror is pointless without beauty. The best horror stories are stories first and horror second, and however much they scare us, they do more than that as well. They have room in them for laughter as well as screams, for triumph and tenderness as well as tragedy. They concern themselves not simply with fear, but with life in all its infinite variety, with love and death and birth and hope and lust and transcendence, with the whole range of experiences and emotions that make up the human condition. Their characters are people, people who linger in our imagination, people like those around us, people who do not exist solely to be the objects of violent slaughter in chapter four. The best horror stories tell us truths.” That was almost twenty years ago, but I stand by every word.

     

  • Its owner must let it ride around like this, and when Kenny had come unwillingly through the curtain, it had probably mistook him. All fat men look alike in the dark. Kenny grabbed behind him and tried to pull the monkey loose, but somehow he couldn’t seem to get a grip on it. The mirror, reversing everything, just made it worse. He jumped up and down ponderously, shaking the entire room and making the furniture leap around every time he landed, but the monkey held on tight to his ears and could not be dislodged. Finally, with what Kenny thought was incredible aplomb under the circumstances, he turned to the gross proprietor and said, “Your monkey, sir. Kindly help me remove it.”

“No, no,” the man said. “Make you skinny. Monkey treatment. You no want to be skinny?”

Of course I do,” Kenny said unhappily, “but this is absurd.” He was confused. This monkey on his back seemed to be part of the monkey treatment, but that certainly didn’t make very much sense.

 

  • Maximilian de Laurier rose slowly from the chair and walked across the room, brushing a light switch as he passed it. He stopped before the full-length mirror on the door, and surveyed the tall, gray-haired reflection that stared back from the glass. There was a curious whiteness about the face, he noted, and the hands were still trembling slightly. “And my life?” he said to the reflection. “What have I done with my life? Read a few books. Driven a few sports cars. Made a few fortunes. A blast, one long, wild blast. Playboy of the Western World.” He laughed softly, but the reflection still looked grim and shaken. “But what have I accomplished? In a year, will there be anything to show that Maxim de Laurier has lived?” He turned from the mirror with a snarl, a bitter, dying man with eyes like the gray ash of a fire that has long since gone out. As he turned, those eyes drank in the gathered remains of a life, sweeping over the rich, heavy furniture, the polished wooden bookcases with their rows of heavy, leather-bound volumes, the cold, sooty fireplace, and the imported hunting rifles mounted in a rack above the mantelpiece. Suddenly the fire burned again. With quick strides, de Laurier crossed the room and yanked one of the rifles from its mounting. He stroked the stock softly with a trembling hand, but his voice when he spoke was cold and hard and determined. “Damn it,” he said. “I’m not dead yet.” He laughed a wild, snarling laugh as he sat down to oil the gun.

     

  • And even in GRRM's storyboarding for his past tv shows, he is careful to specify the importance and focus on mirrors and what they reflect. In this story, a mirror plays a key part to the mystery plot of the story.

    • [Director's notes] She puts down the washcloth, looks at Megan’s reflection in the mirror, smiles. We move in TIGHT on the mirror as Denise’s eyes rise. Behind them, the open bathroom door is reflected, and outside in the hallway, sitting in his wheelchair, is the Vet. Denise spins around, and...

    • Instead of calming her, that just drives her WILD. Grabbing up a CHAIR, she swings at the mirrored window with all her strength. It bounces off the glass. Cat swings it again and again. The mirror begins to BREAK. A spiderweb of CRACKS fissures out. CAT (screaming) Not safe! Not safe! Not safe! The mirror SHATTERS, showering the hall outside with pieces of one-way glass. Cat is about to leap through the broken window when Tom grabs her, restrains her. TOM Cat, stop. Don’t …

 

  • Ok, this next bit is from a top three fave GRRM story of mine, The Skin Trade. Great story and worth a read if you like the north, Jon and Val, Ramsay/Bolton, Great Other plot in ASOIAF. A few times in ASOIAF the Wall is the reflector, the mirror of the story. That has a massive significance to the overall point of the story. And every time I ramble on in the forum how the likes of Marsh and the other plotters are the ones responsible for bringing down the wall, this next bit in part solidifies that concept. Jon, as the sun's son, is now a bleeding star now that he was mutiny stabbed. The mutineers got blood on the mirror. There is a lot more to the mirror concept in this story both before and after this passage. This is just a small sample:

Steven giggled. “You’ll get it now,” he said. “You called it. You got blood on the mirrors. You called it back again.”

The room seemed to spin. Moonlight ran from mirror to mirror to mirror, dizzyingly. Or maybe it wasn’t moonlight. Willie looked into the mirrors. The reflections were gone. Willie, Steven, the moon, all gone. There was blood on the mirrors and they were full of fog, a silvery pale fog that shimmered as it moved. Something was moving through the fog, sliding from mirror to mirror to mirror, around and around. Something hungry that wanted to get out. He saw it, lost it, saw it again. It was in front of him, behind him, off to the side. It was a hound, gaunt and terrible; it was a snake, scaled and foul; it was a man, with eyes like pits and knives for its fingers. It wouldn’t hold still, every time he looked its shape seemed to change, and each shape was worse than the last, more twisted and obscene. Everything about it was lean and cruel. Its fingers were sharp, so sharp, and he looked at them and felt their caress sliding beneath his skin, tingling along the nerves, pain and blood and fire trailing behind them. It was black, blacker than black, a black that drank all light forever, and it was all shining silver too. It was a nightmare that lived in a funhouse mirror, the thing that hunts the hunters. He could feel the evil throbbing through the glass.

“Skinner,” Steven called. The surface of the mirrors seemed to ripple and bulge, like a wave cresting on some quicksilver sea. The fog was thinning, Willie realized with sudden terror; he could see it clearer now, and he knew it could see him. And suddenly Willie Flambeaux knew what was happening, knew that when the fog cleared the mirrors wouldn’t be mirrors anymore; they’d be doors, doors, and the skinner would come …

(Yes, the hero's name is Willie Flambeaux. A flaming light bringer penis :cool4:, and his girlfriends name is Randi- get it :lol:)

[then later in the story the Roose Bolton-type explains the Skinner/Great Other thing. It goes from mirror to mirror, and if in ASOIAF the Wall is the greatest mirror, was there actually another wall in Essos so many millenia ago as we history readers suppose? The NW oaths do say "watchers on the walls" plural.]

“Fuck your city,” Randi said. “What about Willie?”

“It was a pity about Zoe, but once the skinner has been summoned, it keeps hunting until it takes a skin, from mirror to mirror to mirror. It knows our scent, but it doesn’t like to wander far from its gates. I don’t know how your mongrel friend managed to evade it twice, but he did …

  • This next bit is from "The Glass Flower", which is a crazy mindtrip of a story where the main character, not necessarily a nice person, is like a Dany-type, and she runs the "game of mind". Also note this is the second time GRRM uses "quicksilver" in relation to the mirror. Just sayin":

    • I raise a small, strong hand, gaze at the thick brown fingers, the patch of callous by my thumb, the blunt wide nails trimmed to the quick. I make a fist, a familiar gesture, and in my hand a mirror takes shape from the iron of my will and the quicksilver of my desire. Within its glittering depths I see a face. It is the face of a woman who is both hard and strong, with deep lines around her gray eyes from squinting into alien suns, a wide mouth not without its generosity, a nose once broken that has not healed straight, short brown hair in perpetual disarray. A comfortable face. It gives me comfort now. The mirror dissolves into smoke. The land, the sky, everything is shifting and uncertain. The sweet little girl is still screaming for her daddy. Some of the others are staring at me, lost. There is a young man, plain of face, his black hair swept back straight and feathered with color in a style that has not been the fashion on Gulliver for a century. His body looks soft, but in his eyes I see a hard edge that reminds me of Khar Dorian.

  • Some "darkling" reading. It is pretty easy to see how certain charactersin ASOAIF are going through/went through this:

    • Storm, mindstorm, yes, it was that. But it was to an ordinary mindstorm as a supernova is to a hurricane, and its violence was the violence of love. It loved me, that mindstorm, and it wanted me, and its bells called to me, and sang its love, and I reached to it and touched, wanting to be with it, wanting to link, wanting never to be alone again. And suddenly I was on the crest of a great wave once again, a wave of fire that washed across the stars forever, and this time I knew the wave would never end, this time I would not be alone afterwards upon my darkling plain. But with that phrase I thought of Lya. And suddenly I was struggling, fighting it, battling back against the sea of sucking love. I ran, ran, ran, RAN … and closed my minddoor and hammered shut the latch and let the storm flail and howl against it while I held it with all my strength, resisting. Yet the door began to buckle and crack.

    • Centuries ago there was a poet named Arnold, who wrote of a darkling plain. The poem’s in one of the old languages, but it’s worth reading. It shows—fear, I think. Something basic in man, some dread of being alone in the cosmos. Maybe it’s just fear of death, maybe it’s more. I don’t know. But it’s primal. All men are forever alone, but they don’t want to be. They’re always searching, trying to make contact, trying to reach others across the void. Some people never succeed, some break through occasionally. Lya and I were lucky. But it’s never permanent. In the end you’re alone again, back on the darkling plain. You see, Dino? Do you see?”

He smiled an amused little smile. Not derisive—that wasn’t his style—just surprised and disbelieving. “No,” he said.

“Look again, then. Always people are reaching for something, for someone, searching. Talk, Talent, love, sex, it’s all part of the same thing, the same search. And gods too. Man invents gods because he’s afraid of being alone, scared of an empty universe, scared of the darkling plain. That’s why your men are converting, Dino, that’s why people are going over. They’ve found God, or as much of a God as they’re ever likely to find. The Union is a mass-mind, an immortal mass-mind, many in one, all love. The Shkeen don’t die, dammit. No wonder they don’t have the concept of an afterlife. They know there’s a God. Maybe it didn’t create the universe, but it’s love, pure love, and they say that God is love, don’t they? Or maybe what we call love is a tiny piece of God. I don’t care, whatever it is, the Union is it. The end of the search for the Shkeen, and for Man too. We’re alike after all, we’re so alike it hurts.”

Valcarenghi gave his exaggerated sigh. “Robb, you’re overwrought. You sound like one of the Joined.”

“Maybe that’s just what I should be. Lya is. She’s part of the Union now.”

He blinked. “How do you know that?”

“She came to me last night, in a dream.”

“Oh. A dream.”

“It was true, dammit. It’s all true.”

 

Ok. I am tired again, and all coughy and gross. Damn flu. Anyway, I am open to other questions about this if you want.

Edited by The Fattest Leech

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Other than that, I found the help of the Liddle and a few other ideas rather interesting IF they are, indeed, a carry-over influence from that story in to our own Bran the story teller arc in ASOIAF.

Thank you for all of the above. I need more time to reread and digest it, so I anticipate more questions will pop up. Get better soon!

Please expand on your thoughts about the Liddle or direct me to some posts. I'd like to read more about this.

7 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Ok, sorry for the delayed response to you. I have been (still sorta am) sick with the flu. Not sure where you live, but the flu here in the US this season has been particularly nasty.

I'm sorry to hear you're sick. It has been a bad flu season. I got the flu shot last fall and so far I haven't fallen ill.

7 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

As far as mirrors are concerned, GRRM uses them A LOT in many stories. So many that I cannot quote them all. Sometimes just as that innocuous "checked herself in a mirror before leaving" type of way, but when they mean something to the character's arc, they really mean something, and it is not always pleasant.

 

I'll be on the lookout for actual mentions of mirrors. Very interesting. Did I mention before that I think the titled chapters are mirrored events from the past?

 

7 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The mirror, reversing everything, just made it worse.

 

I have some ideas/theories as to why the wheel of time in Westeros is mirrored and reversing, but this idea that it makes it worse is something I hadn't considered before.

 

7 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

every time I ramble on in the forum how the likes of Marsh and the other plotters are the ones responsible for bringing down the wall, this next bit in part solidifies that concept. Jon, as the sun's son, is now a bleeding star now that he was mutiny stabbed.

 

Lately I have been suspicious that the wildlings are descendants of the Ironborn, imprisoned after Aegon the Conqueror burned out Harren and his castle at Harrenhal. There's some unknown connection though between the Ironborn and the maesters at the Citadel that hasn't made sense yet. 

7 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

if in ASOIAF the Wall is the greatest mirror, was there actually another wall in Essos so many millenia ago as we history readers suppose? The NW oaths do say "watchers on the walls" plural.]

I think an older, destroyed second Wall along the Trident in the Riverlands would make more sense as the mirrored inversion to the Wall. It would also help explain the residual fire magic that Thoros draws on to revive Beric, and Beric to revive Cat. Of course that Wall may have been destroyed long before Aegon arrived, but the ruins at Moat Callin hint at some disaster as well as the water bogs.

I have a new theory that the Others are Ironborn. I have to backup a bit to interject that iron is a known substance used in wards, and the reason why the people are called Ironborn is because the Children tried to keep them out of Westeros and keep the peace, which is what wards are all about. 

The Ironborn's power is derived from the sea and their Drowned God. The Children called down their hammer of waters to sever the Iron Islands from the mainland. This worked for awhile, but the people were resilient and were reborn as raiders. The separation from Westeros was meant as a type of ward, but since they broke free of their restraints they were reborn from the iron (ward), or Ironborn. 

The Ironborn built ships and turned to raiding for a living, so the Children manipulated the seasons and brought about an extended winter to freeze the sea and the Ironborn's water magic, but magic is a double-bladed sword without a hilt. They didn't realize that the Ironborn would be able to work with frozen water and create white walker soldiers.

The Children weren't the only ones hunted by the white walkers. The First Men sent out the Last Hero and his friends to seek out the Children. We know some of how that story turned out with everyone dying but the Last Hero, but somehow a plan was put together to defeat the Others and it worked. The white walkers only appeared after the sun went down so the humans behind them needed to be dealt with during daylight hours and imprisoned until the Wall could be built - keeping them separated and unable to make the blood sacrifices necessary to work magic. After the Wall was built the water magic of the Ironborn was contained and warded with woven layers of ice magic.

Fast forward to Harren the Black who built Harrenhal in the Riverlands to mock the old gods. He clear cut all the weirwoods and dug up any greenseers he found. The surviving remnant of Children fled beyond the Wall into the cave where they now reside. Fire magic was summoned to deal with Harren by way of Aegon the Conqueror, and Harrenhal was destroyed. Aegon used a thousand swords of the defeated to build his Iron Throne. There were many Houses destroyed during the conquest, but IMO the Iron Throne is named after the defeated Ironborn.

 

Edited by Feather Crystal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now