Would Tywin have hated Tyrion if he weren't a dwarf?

[Ser Frasier of House Crane]

If Joanna died giving birth to Tyrion, but Tyrion had been born a normal child, would Tywin still have hated him? Or would he have eventually seen Tyrion as the useful member of House Lannister that he was?

[True.Kitn902]

No he would of loved him as much as  his other children and Tyrion would be his heir as soon as Jamie becomes KY.  

[Unbent_Unbroken]

Probably not. The chief reason Tywin hates Tyrion is that he sees his very existence as a mockery to House Lannister. Joanna dying giving birth to him is more of an excuse. A Tyrion who isn't an ugly dwarf wouldn't invite that kind of scorn therefore would be treated better. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Of course, Tywin's only reason for disliking Tyrion is his dwarfism. Women die in childbirth, it is tragic. But it happens. If he was a normal child he would love him, celebrate his intelligence and name him as his heir once Jaime joined the KG. He'd have found him a lovely noble wife, and set him up with as a squire to a prestigious knight when he was the right age. 

But my god would the story and his character be a lot less interesting for it. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

He doesn't really hate Tyrion, he is just incredibly disappointed in him. Tywin is not a warm fuzzy guy to begin with (few Lords actually seem to be in Westeros) but that does not mean he hates Tyrion.

Tywin's life has been about serving the family, Tyrion's thus far has been about avoiding responsibility and the one time Tywin tries to groom him as his heir (making him Hand) Tyrion messes it up by threatening the lives of his grandchildren over the life of a whore.

[ForTheNorth]

Tywin is a sociopath who never forgets a slight and had Tyrions wife gang raped in front of him as a lesson. 

The fact that Tyrion won't bow and resign himself to a life out of sight as Casterly Rocks sanitation engineer grates Tywin the most. 

[LordMiddleFinger]

 He would probably.... still hate him.

Tyrion is a dwarf yes, that is one of the reasons why Tywin doesn't like him but not the main reason.

  I don't wanna answer this question with a fan theory but it is possible ( though i personally doubt it ) that Tyrion is actually the son of the Mad King.  If this is true, then Tywin would hate Tyrion regardless of how he ( Tyrion ) looks. Besides, Tywin blames Tyrion for Joanna's death.

[Trigger Warning]

If he was exactly the same as Tyrion but not a dwarf, then yes. However being a dwarf has shaped him so who knows. 

[James Steller]

Tywin wouldn't hate Tyrion, but he would still make his life hell. He loved Joanna more than any other human being, and losing her was clearly a big deal for him. And given how he could never stop arguing with his brothers, and even gave his sister the silent treatment for half a year, it's safe to say that no matter who or what Tyrion was, Tywin would never forgive him for "killing" Joanna.

[VeryLittleGravitasIndeed]

He might resent that Tyrion lived while Joanna died but I can't see it coloring his relationship that much. He'll treat Tyrion far better than in canon because dwarfism is a subject of mockery and a risk to the propagation and purity of the Lannister bloodline while a whole Tyrion is a boon to the family (and Tywin's all about family and all against mockery).

 

[The Arthur Smith]

Back then, children were often blame for the death of their mother in childbirth. So Tywin would still blame and hate Tyrion for Joanna's death. It doesn't help that Tywin was deeply in love with Joanna.

[Lord Wraith]

Probably resent him for causing Joanna's death but otherwise would treat him normally.

[Alaynsa Starne]

I don't think Tywin would have hated Tyrion, but I don't think he would have loved him, either. I really do think that a lot of Tywin's viciousness towards Tyrion comes from the loss of Joanna, not just Tyrion's dwarfism. You'll notice that Tyrion's uncles and aunt treat him normally, even kindly. That probably has a lot to do with them not being Tyrion's parent in general or Tywin specifically, but we can see that there's still room for familial love and kindness even with Tyrion's dwarfism in a society as strongly ableist as Westeros. It's possible that if Joanna had survived and had treated Tyrion with the same love that she did Jaime and Cersei, that could have theoretically influenced Tywin's feelings and behavior towards Tyrion as well. I don't think that Tywin was particularly warm with any of his children after Joanna died, and Tyrion being the cause of her death and a "monster" besides really only made that loss worse. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

12 minutes ago, Alaynsa Starne said:

I don't think Tywin would have hated Tyrion, but I don't think he would have loved him, either. I really do think that a lot of Tywin's viciousness towards Tyrion comes from the loss of Joanna, not just Tyrion's dwarfism.

Can I ask what viciousness did Tywin show Tyrion?

I know the Tysha incident was reprehensible but I imagine that had Cersei or Jaime ran off with a homeless peasant and married them there would have been a similar outcome. This had little to do with Tyrion's disability or Joanna's demise and more to do with Tywin's elitism in a society that is already pretty elitist.

I'm really not seeing the same viciousness a lot of others are.

[Alaynsa Starne]

4 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Can I ask what viciousness did Tywin show Tyrion?

I know the Tysha incident was reprehensible but I imagine that had Cersei or Jaime ran off with a homeless peasant and married them there would have been a similar outcome. This had little to do with Tyrion's disability or Joanna's demise and more to do with Tywin's elitism in a society that is already pretty elitist.

I'm really not seeing the same viciousness a lot of others are.

He sends Tyrion to fight in the Battle of the Green Fork in AGOT, the implication being that, given Tyrion's relative physical disadvantage and lack of battle experience, Tyrion will be conveniently killed off so that Tywin doesn't have to deal with him anymore. At least, that's what I got from that incident. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

27 minutes ago, Alaynsa Starne said:

He sends Tyrion to fight in the Battle of the Green Fork in AGOT, the implication being that, given Tyrion's relative physical disadvantage and lack of battle experience, Tyrion will be conveniently killed off so that Tywin doesn't have to deal with him anymore. At least, that's what I got from that incident. 

You are not alone in jumping to that conclusion. But if you reread the two Tyrion chapters that is not actually what happens.

First of all Tywin offers Tyrion a much easier role, a role that Tyrion refuses.

"If you have a mind to make yourself of use, I will give you a command," his father said. "Marq Piper and Karyl Vance are loose in our rear, raiding our lands across the Red Fork."

Tyrion made a tsking sound. "The gall of them, fighting back. Ordinarily I'd be glad to punish such rudeness, Father, but the truth is, I have pressing business elsewhere."

 

It is not Tywin's decision for Tyrion to fight in the Vanguard but the Mountain Clans, as they demand that he fight with them.

 

"We will ride with you, lion lord," Chella daughter of Cheyk agreed, "but only if your halfman son goes with us. He has bought his breath with promises. Until we hold the steel he has pledged us, his life is ours."

 

And even in another meeting Tywin still offers Tyrion a chance to not be part of it.

 

Lord Tywin Lannister turned to his brother. "If my son's men will not obey his commands, perhaps the vanguard is not the place for him. No doubt he would be more comfortable in the rear, guarding our baggage train."

"Do me no kindnesses, Father," he said angrily. "If you have no other command to offer me, I'll lead your van."

Lord Tywin studied his dwarf son. "I said nothing about command. You will serve under Ser Gregor."

Tyrion was not made to do anything by his father, it was the Mountain Clans who demanded he be with them and even after he was given the option to back out and have a far safer role. And even then, there was little chance that Tyrion would be killed off. Tywin had a squire, Bronn and 300 men to command.

[Alaynsa Starne]

16 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

You are not alone in jumping to that conclusion. But if you reread the two Tyrion chapters that is not actually what happens.

First of all Tywin offers Tyrion a much easier role, a role that Tyrion refuses.

"If you have a mind to make yourself of use, I will give you a command," his father said. "Marq Piper and Karyl Vance are loose in our rear, raiding our lands across the Red Fork."

Tyrion made a tsking sound. "The gall of them, fighting back. Ordinarily I'd be glad to punish such rudeness, Father, but the truth is, I have pressing business elsewhere."

 

It is not Tywin's decision for Tyrion to fight in the Vanguard but the Mountain Clans, as they demand that he fight with them.

 

"We will ride with you, lion lord," Chella daughter of Cheyk agreed, "but only if your halfman son goes with us. He has bought his breath with promises. Until we hold the steel he has pledged us, his life is ours."

 

And even in another meeting Tywin still offers Tyrion a chance to not be part of it.

 

Lord Tywin Lannister turned to his brother. "If my son's men will not obey his commands, perhaps the vanguard is not the place for him. No doubt he would be more comfortable in the rear, guarding our baggage train."

"Do me no kindnesses, Father," he said angrily. "If you have no other command to offer me, I'll lead your van."

Lord Tywin studied his dwarf son. "I said nothing about command. You will serve under Ser Gregor."

Tyrion was not made to do anything by his father, it was the Mountain Clans who demanded he be with them and even after he was given the option to back out and have a far safer role. And even then, there was little chance that Tyrion would be killed off. Tywin had a squire, Bronn and 300 men to command.

Wow, from what you've provided, you're 100% correct. I suppose Tyrion's own perception of Tywin may have colored my own interpretation of him. As far as Tywin's viciousness in general goes, I can't think of any other examples off the top of my head. However, Tyrion does believe that his father hates him, and I strongly doubt that belief comes from somewhere other than his own personal experiences that predate the story in the series. And Shae being found in Tywin's bed does implicate Tywin to have been involved in framing Tyrion, though that's purely my own speculation. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

3 minutes ago, Alaynsa Starne said:

Wow, from what you've provided, you're 100% correct. I suppose Tyrion's own perception of Tywin may have colored my own interpretation of him.

Tyrion is not the only POV who is convinced that their father hates them.

Tell me, Father, when did you decide to disinherit me? Was it the day that Quentyn was born, or the day that I was born? What did I ever do to make you hate me so?" To her fury, there were tears in her eyes.

Yet despite this I am 100% certain that Doran does not hate her, they too have a weird relationship.

The characters are going to have their own hang ups, especially in a society that is probably not as emotionally honest as ours is. And it doesn't help that Tywin, even by the middle ages standards is very reserved and distant. Both Kevan and Genna know Tywin very well and explain his behaviour. I have quoted what they say about Tywin here if you want to read it.

 

[Alaynsa Starne]

21 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Tyrion is not the only POV who is convinced that their father hates them.

Tell me, Father, when did you decide to disinherit me? Was it the day that Quentyn was born, or the day that I was born? What did I ever do to make you hate me so?" To her fury, there were tears in her eyes.

Yet despite this I am 100% certain that Doran does not hate her, they too have a weird relationship.

The characters are going to have their own hang ups, especially in a society that is probably not as emotionally honest as ours is. And it doesn't help that Tywin, even by the middle ages standards is very reserved and distant. Both Kevan and Genna know Tywin very well and explain his behaviour. I have quoted what they say about Tywin here if you want to read it.

 

Well, the difference between Arianne and Tyrion is that Arianne is incorrect in her belief that Doran disinherited her; Tywin flatout told Tyrion that he would never inherit Casterly Rock despite Tyrion technically having the right to it. We see that in this confrontation:

"What do I want, you ask? I'll tell you what I want. I want what is mine by rights. I want Casterly Rock."

Hiw father's mouth grew hard. "Your brother's birthright?"

"The knights of the Kingsguard are forbidden to marry, to father children, and to hold land....The day Jaime put on that white cloak, he gave up his claim to Casterly Rock, but you never once have you acknowledged it....I want you to stand up before the realm and proclaim that I am your son and your lawful heir.

Lord Tywin's eyes were a pale green flecked with gold, as luminous as they were merciless. ""Casterly Rock," he declared in a flat cold dead tone. And then, "Never."...

"Why?"

"You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors since I cannot prove you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father's before him. But either gods nor me shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse."...

..."Go back to your bed, Tyrion, and speak to me no more of your rights to Casterly Rock. You shall have your reward, but it shall be one I deem appropriate to your servic and station.

[Poppa Bolton]

Hard to say.  People love to ignore the fact that Tyrion brings a lot of his problems with Tywin on himself.  He hates him because he's a dwarf, and he killed Joanna   But he also hates him because he's a drunkard, a known whoremonger, and makes things difficult for Tywin while he's trying to get important shit done. 

But if he wasn't a dwarf, he might not have those negative traits, so who knows?