Skahaz is scum

[desire]

At least he is loyal to a degree

[LadyoftheNorth72]

10 hours ago, The Drunkard said:

He also suggests the equivalent of a Red Wedding when they're talking about how to defeat the entrenched slaver families. 

That was Daario.

Although the Shavepate seems brutal in some ways, he understands far better than Dany how brutal the Harpy loyalists are willing to be. And it was Dany's lousy judgment to take in children for "hostages" while sending adults out for her enemies to hold and slaughter.

[Equilibrium]

Skahaz is my favorite Ghiscari, hard working individual giving himself completely to the common good and progress. One of the best characters ever to set foot in Meereen.

He is realist, you don't combat regressive slavery regime by nice wishes, political marriages and caving in to their demands. If you take threaten to kill the hostages you better carry out that threat otherwise no one will take you seriously. 

Skahaz didn't need to assist Daenerys, he was noble, he could have remained at home or oppose her, but he saw th progress she was bringing, and decided slaves need freedom and his people need to get rid of decadent sadistic oligarchy.

It's one thing for Daenerys to come and declare the abolishment of slavery on whim, other thing is for Skahaz to support that, he is relinquishing his privileges, he is going against culture he was raised in, he is probably going against his friends and family to support a good cause. Who should we praise more? Daenerys can allow herself to be passive and debate  moral intricacies, Skahaz can't, he knows that Ghiscari prey on weakness and that they will not relent, Daenerys can pack up and leave, what do you think would happen to Skahaz and everyone he ever held dear?

There is absolutely no proof that he is two-faced, dishonest or has any kind of ulterior motivation, assuming so is mostly related to the second cause of Skahaz hate. 

Most people aren't really concerned with his declared willingness to hurt children for greater good, it's subconscious, you either hate him because of your support for Oriental moral relativism and you see poor Skahaz as a traitor to the race and culture, or you consider Skahaz a prototype of ugly, brown, evil Easterner and assume his motivation is cruelty and lust for power while Aryan Jaime is always be conveniently excused when he declares willingness to kill children or indeed tries to kill children.

Skahaz should be revered as great anti-hero, man who understands human condition and price of progress, not be lumped together with sadistic psychopaths like Mountain and Vargo.

 

 

[Maester of Valyria]

I very much doubt that Skahaz is the harpy, or that he'll turn on Dany (at least, not without a substantial shift in the power dynamic in the region). Skahaz owes everything to Dany and her reign, and he must know that if she falls then he'll be on a cross before nightfall. You can make arguments that he's a traitor in deep cover, but the fact that he was the first Meereenese nobleman to come over to her side would seem to preclude this: he wouldn't have had much time to organise this with the other Sons of the Harpy.

Yes, morally he is a complete monster, but every ruler (at least in this time period) needs a monster or two to do the dirty jobs. He knows that given the current state of affairs Dany's best option is sometimes the painful, bloody, immoral one.

Don't judge Skahaz for what he might do in the future: I have seen very convincing arguments that he will betray Dany later on, just as I have seen very convincing arguments that he will remain loyal. We don't have enough evidence to say one way or the other yet, so we can only judge him on his past actions. These have all been for the good of Dany's reign.

[Abdallah]

10 hours ago, Equilibrium said:

Skahaz is my favorite Ghiscari, hard working individual giving himself completely to the common good and progress. One of the best characters ever to set foot in Meereen.

He is realist, you don't combat regressive slavery regime by nice wishes, political marriages and caving in to their demands. If you take threaten to kill the hostages you better carry out that threat otherwise no one will take you seriously. 

Skahaz didn't need to assist Daenerys, he was noble, he could have remained at home or oppose her, but he saw th progress she was bringing, and decided slaves need freedom and his people need to get rid of decadent sadistic oligarchy.

It's one thing for Daenerys to come and declare the abolishment of slavery on whim, other thing is for Skahaz to support that, he is relinquishing his privileges, he is going against culture he was raised in, he is probably going against his friends and family to support a good cause. Who should we praise more? Daenerys can allow herself to be passive and debate  moral intricacies, Skahaz can't, he knows that Ghiscari prey on weakness and that they will not relent, Daenerys can pack up and leave, what do you think would happen to Skahaz and everyone he ever held dear?

There is absolutely no proof that he is two-faced, dishonest or has any kind of ulterior motivation, assuming so is mostly related to the second cause of Skahaz hate. 

Most people aren't really concerned with his declared willingness to hurt children for greater good, it's subconscious, you either hate him because of your support for Oriental moral relativism and you see poor Skahaz as a traitor to the race and culture, or you consider Skahaz a prototype of ugly, brown, evil Easterner and assume his motivation is cruelty and lust for power while Aryan Jaime is always be conveniently excused when he declares willingness to kill children or indeed tries to kill children.

Skahaz should be revered as great anti-hero, man who understands human condition and price of progress, not be lumped together with sadistic psychopaths like Mountain and Vargo.

 

 

Hey bro, long time no see. U ser deserve a medal for such a well put argument. But no I am mad at him for hurting children, specifically that little girl. Kids are a red line for me. And while I am an Oriental myself, I have no problem with other shavepates, such as Rezdak and Hizdahr. I'm actually glad Daenerys conquered slaver's bay and I hate the slavers, especially Kraznys, more than Skahaz. As for Jaime, throwing Bran out a window was total BS on his part. Thing is he changed after losing a hand. There was a bible quote "And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell." and it seems Jaime lost alot of his evil along with his right hand the same hand he used to push Bran out a window. He has threatened Kids since then (Roslin's baby and the hostages) but we're not sure if he would do it. 

[Alaynsa Starne]

I'm pretty neutral about Skahaz. I can see why people would see him as a pretty scummy guy, but he struck me more as a utilitarian attempting to navigate through Dany's inconsistent and bizarre decisions rather than someone as needlessly brutish as Gregor. 

[Metheos]

While Shakaz is certainly far more fond of uninhibited violence than you'd want in a high placed advisor, I think his 'eliminate the slavemasters' approach is a better bet than Daenerys's attempt to placate them. While his willingness to kill the child hostages shows a marked lack of morality, he does have a point that if Daenerys wasn't willing to kill them, she shouldn't have taken them, and continuing to hold them just makes her look weak. And the idea that he will betray her seems patently idiotic to me: as others have said, he's gone all in with her. He's advocated the deaths of the slavemasters, formed the Brazen Beasts, worked with the freedmen, and (most notably) continued to fight on her side after Daenerys was taken away by Drogon. If Daenerys falls or simply leaves, he and his entire family will have their heads on spikes in hours. Yes, he's in it for selfish reasons rather than any anti-slavery ideals, but Daenerys can't afford to be picky at the moment.

[bemused]

I lost a post I was composing when the forums went down, but it was much along the same lines as Lady of the North, Equlibrium and Maester of Valyria..I agree with so much of what they've said.

But Abdallah.. Why do you assume the owner of the wineshop's daughters were little girls ? There's nothing to say they were - in fact, I think the text suggests otherwise..

“Your servants have arrested the owner of the wineshop and his daughters. They plead their ignorance and beg for mercy.”
They all plead ignorance and beg for mercy. “Give them to the Shavepate. Skahaz, keep each apart from the others and put them to the question.”
“It will be done, Your Worship. Would you have me question them sweetly, or sharply?”

“Sweetly, to begin. Hear what tales they tell and what names they give you. It may be they had no part in this.” She hesitated. “Nine, the noble Reznak said. Who else?”

"They" are pleading ignorance..would a child be thought to be involved, or to have reliable information, to begin with ? Would Dany be instructing Skahaz to put the daughters to the question at all, if they were little girls? And would she be sayng "sweetly" to begin - implying that progressing to "sharply" might be necessary? ... I highly doubt it. .. 

After learning that Rylona Rhee, the harpist and spokesperson for the freedmen was one of the victims ,and that she had first had her fingers cut off...

Mercy, thought Dany. They will have the dragon’s mercy. “Skahaz, I have changed my mind. Question the man sharply.”
“I could. Or I could question the daughters sharply whilst the father looks on. That will wring some names from him.”
“Do as you think best, but bring me names.” Her fury was a fire in her belly.

Dany wouldn't give Skahaz carte blanche in the matter, even in her fury, if they were children.

And we should note that Ska says he could question the daughters in front of the father. That's a suggestion. He isn't begging or demanding to do it. .. He would probably be willing to do it, but before it comes to that, he may think even the threat might work on the father.

Dany suspects Ska goes too far in his interrogations.. But we never actually see him interrogate anyone, so it's hard to judge..

In the meantime, Dany and the reader have the GG and Hizdahr fueling those suspicions. The GG observes that Dany has not harmed any of her hostages, in spite of continued SoH activity. Dany makes light of it, saying, who would pour her wine..

The priestess did not smile. “The Shavepate would feed them to your dragons, it is said. A life for a life. For every Brazen Beast cut down, he would have a child die.”

Well, "it is said" by the GG. No one else seems to have heard it. (This reminds me of Bowen Marsh, and "The men say.." - Both cases are equally suspect to me.)

Skahaz, of course, has been advising Dany not to marry Hizdahr, so Hizdahr weighs in on Ska...

“I do not doubt that Skahaz would soon have me confessing. A day with him, and I will be one of the Harpy’s Sons. Two days, and I will be the Harpy. Three, and it will turn out I slew your father too, back in the Sunset Kingdoms when I was yet a boy. Then he will impale me on a stake and you can watch me die … but afterward the killings will go on.” Hizdahr leaned closer. “Or you can marry me and let me try to stop them.”

He's pouring it on pretty thick, but how far can it be believed? It's pretty certain that Hizdahr was in favour of the impaling of the 163 slave children, as one of the leading lights among the Great Masters .. Skahaz.. not so much, as a member of a much "lesser" noble family. He's the Shavepate, the first to ally with Dany , and we don't have the full backstory of why (or what caused the bad blood between Kandaq and Loraq). It's also pretty clear that Reznak and Hizdahr are only fake shavepates.

Anyway, Hizdahr's accusations smack of pre-emptively accusing your opponent of exactly what you would do in their place.

As for Dany... 

The Brazen Beasts had taken dozens of the Harpy’s Sons, and those who had survived their capture had yielded names when questioned sharply … too many names, it seemed to her. 

... But Dany doesn't think  "The Harpy" exists as one figure calling the shots - a whole organization where most operatives don't have a direct line to the top doesn't occur to her ... My enemies are legion, she thinks.

Of Skahaz, she thinks.. She trusted Skahaz more than she trusted Hizdahr, but the Shavepate would be a disaster as a king. He was too quick to anger, too slow to forgive.

This seems to be true where it concerns Hizdahr and the Great Masters, but is it true generally, and are his sentiments unreasonable? ... We don't know yet. However, Skahaz doesn't help himself in Dany's eyes (or the readers') when he says of Hizdahr... 

“If he is not the Harpy, he knows him. I can find the truth of that easy enough. Give me your leave to put Hizdahr to the question, and I will bring you a confession.”
“No,” she said. “I do not trust these confessions. You’ve brought me too many of them, all of them worthless.” ...... Again, it may be they're only worthless because most of the SoH that have been captured don't have a connection closer to the top.(Higher up the pyramid)

Perhaps it's easy for you to see the wineseller's daughters as children because soon after, we learn of Hazzea ?  (Which Skahaz suspects could be a lie... and I agree with him, after careful consideration.)

In any case,the daughters are clearly not children, and we know of no occasion where Skahaz tortured a child. He simply says Dany's hostages should be used as such. ... While I'm glad they have not been, he's right in principle, as any Westerosi lord would tell Dany. She should have taken different hostages , or used some other form of insurance / punishment .

[Equilibrium]

4 hours ago, Abdallah said:

Hey bro, long time no see. U ser deserve a medal for such a well put argument. But no I am mad at him for hurting children, specifically that little girl. Kids are a red line for me. And while I am an Oriental myself, I have no problem with other shavepates, such as Rezdak and Hizdahr. I'm actually glad Daenerys conquered slaver's bay and I hate the slavers, especially Kraznys, more than Skahaz. As for Jaime, throwing Bran out a window was total BS on his part. Thing is he changed after losing a hand. There was a bible quote "And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell." and it seems Jaime lost alot of his evil along with his right hand the same hand he used to push Bran out a window. He has threatened Kids since then (Roslin's baby and the hostages) but we're not sure if he would do it. 

Hey bro, thanks, glad you liked it. Maybe I was a little harsh and I never aimed any categorization at you, I just said what often is the case, Oriental cultural relativism has focus on the later part, the cultural relativism and people seeing Skahaz as Quisling, people are biased in that way and it doesn't refer just to people from Middle or Far East. I have read it again and I see how someone could be offended and I am glad you didn't, you are really stand up guy.

As I said both of those things are subconscious biases, we all have them, I was just trying to bring people's attention to that fact, so they can calculate them in their judgment. 

Jaime has repentant, and make no mistake I like Jaime, but we had his POVs and heard his motivations and reasons, we lack those for Skahaz. I never said he was paragon of virtue, but we don't know him very well, he maybe is selfless and loyal, yeah he may be corrupt treacherous opportunist but we have no reason to believe it so far.

People willing to sacrifice a child for thousands of lives are not villains, people who refuse to do so are, as they in fact sacrifice thousands of lives for one child and appeasing their inaction, peace of mind and illusion of moral high ground.

Daenerys is at fault, imagine how many innocent lives would be saved if she imposed iron-fisted tyranny from day one, and led consistent and even-handed policy, even if they don't want to admit it people even today like competent and just autocrat more then inconsistent and inefficient libertarian, thing is competent and just autocrats always were in short supply  

 

 

 

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, bemused said:

I lost a post I was composing when the forums went down, but it was much along the same lines as Lady of the North, Equlibrium and Maester of Valyria..I agree with so much of what they've said.

But Abdallah.. Why do you assume the owner of the wineshop's daughters were little girls ? There's nothing to say they were - in fact, I think the text suggests otherwise..

“Your servants have arrested the owner of the wineshop and his daughters. They plead their ignorance and beg for mercy.”
They all plead ignorance and beg for mercy. “Give them to the Shavepate. Skahaz, keep each apart from the others and put them to the question.”
“It will be done, Your Worship. Would you have me question them sweetly, or sharply?”

“Sweetly, to begin. Hear what tales they tell and what names they give you. It may be they had no part in this.” She hesitated. “Nine, the noble Reznak said. Who else?”

"They" are pleading ignorance..would a child be thought to be involved, or to have reliable information, to begin with ? Would Dany be instructing Skahaz to put the daughters to the question at all, if they were little girls? And would she be sayng "sweetly" to begin - implying that progressing to "sharply" might be necessary? ... I highly doubt it. .. 

After learning that Rylona Rhee, the harpist and spokesperson for the freedmen was one of the victims ,and that she had first had her fingers cut off...

Mercy, thought Dany. They will have the dragon’s mercy. “Skahaz, I have changed my mind. Question the man sharply.”
“I could. Or I could question the daughters sharply whilst the father looks on. That will wring some names from him.”
“Do as you think best, but bring me names.” Her fury was a fire in her belly.

Dany wouldn't give Skahaz carte blanche in the matter, even in her fury, if they were children.

And we should note that Ska says he could question the daughters in front of the father. That's a suggestion. He isn't begging or demanding to do it. .. He would probably be willing to do it, but before it comes to that, he may think even the threat might work on the father.

Dany suspects Ska goes too far in his interrogations.. But we never actually see him interrogate anyone, so it's hard to judge..

In the meantime, Dany and the reader have the GG and Hizdahr fueling those suspicions. The GG observes that Dany has not harmed any of her hostages, in spite of continued SoH activity. Dany makes light of it, saying, who would pour her wine..

The priestess did not smile. “The Shavepate would feed them to your dragons, it is said. A life for a life. For every Brazen Beast cut down, he would have a child die.”

Well, "it is said" by the GG. No one else seems to have heard it. (This reminds me of Bowen Marsh, and "The men say.." - Both cases are equally suspect to me.)

Skahaz, of course, has been advising Dany not to marry Hizdahr, so Hizdahr weighs in on Ska...

“I do not doubt that Skahaz would soon have me confessing. A day with him, and I will be one of the Harpy’s Sons. Two days, and I will be the Harpy. Three, and it will turn out I slew your father too, back in the Sunset Kingdoms when I was yet a boy. Then he will impale me on a stake and you can watch me die … but afterward the killings will go on.” Hizdahr leaned closer. “Or you can marry me and let me try to stop them.”

He's pouring it on pretty thick, but how far can it be believed? It's pretty certain that Hizdahr was in favour of the impaling of the 163 slave children, as one of the leading lights among the Great Masters .. Skahaz.. not so much, as a member of a much "lesser" noble family. He's the Shavepate, the first to ally with Dany , and we don't have the full backstory of why (or what caused the bad blood between Kandaq and Loraq). It's also pretty clear that Reznak and Hizdahr are only fake shavepates.

Anyway, Hizdahr's accusations smack of pre-emptively accusing your opponent of exactly what you would do in their place.

As for Dany... 

The Brazen Beasts had taken dozens of the Harpy’s Sons, and those who had survived their capture had yielded names when questioned sharply … too many names, it seemed to her. 

... But Dany doesn't think  "The Harpy" exists as one figure calling the shots - a whole organization where most operatives don't have a direct line to the top doesn't occur to her ... My enemies are legion, she thinks.

Of Skahaz, she thinks.. She trusted Skahaz more than she trusted Hizdahr, but the Shavepate would be a disaster as a king. He was too quick to anger, too slow to forgive.

This seems to be true where it concerns Hizdahr and the Great Masters, but is it true generally, and are his sentiments unreasonable? ... We don't know yet. However, Skahaz doesn't help himself in Dany's eyes (or the readers') when he says of Hizdahr... 

“If he is not the Harpy, he knows him. I can find the truth of that easy enough. Give me your leave to put Hizdahr to the question, and I will bring you a confession.”
“No,” she said. “I do not trust these confessions. You’ve brought me too many of them, all of them worthless.” ...... Again, it may be they're only worthless because most of the SoH that have been captured don't have a connection closer to the top.(Higher up the pyramid)

Perhaps it's easy for you to see the wineseller's daughters as children because soon after, we learn of Hazzea ?  (Which Skahaz suspects could be a lie... and I agree with him, after careful consideration.)

In any case,the daughters are clearly not children, and we know of no occasion where Skahaz tortured a child. He simply says Dany's hostages should be used as such. ... While I'm glad they have not been, he's right in principle, as any Westerosi lord would tell Dany. She should have taken different hostages , or used some other form of insurance / punishment .

While we never find out how exactly, Skahaz questions his prisoners, we can surmise that it's pretty unpleasant.  Medieval torture techniques (for that matter modern torture techniques) could be pretty awful.  In general, torture was considered to be a reliable means of extracting information from suspects (and sometimes, it actually is, such as the Gunpowder Plot).

Worse still, Skahaz gives every impression that he enjoys torture. 

[SeanF]

17 hours ago, Equilibrium said:

Skahaz is my favorite Ghiscari, hard working individual giving himself completely to the common good and progress. One of the best characters ever to set foot in Meereen.

He is realist, you don't combat regressive slavery regime by nice wishes, political marriages and caving in to their demands. If you take threaten to kill the hostages you better carry out that threat otherwise no one will take you seriously. 

Skahaz didn't need to assist Daenerys, he was noble, he could have remained at home or oppose her, but he saw th progress she was bringing, and decided slaves need freedom and his people need to get rid of decadent sadistic oligarchy.

It's one thing for Daenerys to come and declare the abolishment of slavery on whim, other thing is for Skahaz to support that, he is relinquishing his privileges, he is going against culture he was raised in, he is probably going against his friends and family to support a good cause. Who should we praise more? Daenerys can allow herself to be passive and debate  moral intricacies, Skahaz can't, he knows that Ghiscari prey on weakness and that they will not relent, Daenerys can pack up and leave, what do you think would happen to Skahaz and everyone he ever held dear?

There is absolutely no proof that he is two-faced, dishonest or has any kind of ulterior motivation, assuming so is mostly related to the second cause of Skahaz hate. 

Most people aren't really concerned with his declared willingness to hurt children for greater good, it's subconscious, you either hate him because of your support for Oriental moral relativism and you see poor Skahaz as a traitor to the race and culture, or you consider Skahaz a prototype of ugly, brown, evil Easterner and assume his motivation is cruelty and lust for power while Aryan Jaime is always be conveniently excused when he declares willingness to kill children or indeed tries to kill children.

Skahaz should be revered as great anti-hero, man who understands human condition and price of progress, not be lumped together with sadistic psychopaths like Mountain and Vargo.

 

 

I don't think that Skahaz is "relinquishing his privileges" any more than LF is.  Rather, he's making a bid for power, over the heads of greater lords, in the same way that LF does.

Leaving aside his attitude towards child hostages, we know that Skahaz enjoys the fighting pits as much as any other Great Master, employs torture readily, and appears to enjoy it, and advised Dany to rip out the tongue of Hazzea's father, rather than compensate him for the death of his daughter.  The last of these shows that he is no friend of the common man.

We don't know what his backstory is.  But, I doubt if he was a kind master to his slaves. 

He's certainly effective, as a plotter and chief of police.  But, he's no idealist.

[WSmith84]

18 hours ago, Equilibrium said:

Skahaz is my favorite Ghiscari, hard working individual giving himself completely to the common good and progress. One of the best characters ever to set foot in Meereen.

He is realist, you don't combat regressive slavery regime by nice wishes, political marriages and caving in to their demands. If you take threaten to kill the hostages you better carry out that threat otherwise no one will take you seriously. 

Skahaz didn't need to assist Daenerys, he was noble, he could have remained at home or oppose her, but he saw th progress she was bringing, and decided slaves need freedom and his people need to get rid of decadent sadistic oligarchy.

It's one thing for Daenerys to come and declare the abolishment of slavery on whim, other thing is for Skahaz to support that, he is relinquishing his privileges, he is going against culture he was raised in, he is probably going against his friends and family to support a good cause. Who should we praise more? Daenerys can allow herself to be passive and debate  moral intricacies, Skahaz can't, he knows that Ghiscari prey on weakness and that they will not relent, Daenerys can pack up and leave, what do you think would happen to Skahaz and everyone he ever held dear?

There is absolutely no proof that he is two-faced, dishonest or has any kind of ulterior motivation, assuming so is mostly related to the second cause of Skahaz hate. 

Most people aren't really concerned with his declared willingness to hurt children for greater good, it's subconscious, you either hate him because of your support for Oriental moral relativism and you see poor Skahaz as a traitor to the race and culture, or you consider Skahaz a prototype of ugly, brown, evil Easterner and assume his motivation is cruelty and lust for power while Aryan Jaime is always be conveniently excused when he declares willingness to kill children or indeed tries to kill children.

Skahaz should be revered as great anti-hero, man who understands human condition and price of progress, not be lumped together with sadistic psychopaths like Mountain and Vargo.

Sorry, but there are plenty of reasons Skahaz could be supporting Dany that have nothing to do with idealism. It would seem under Dany that he (and thus his family) have advanced up the ladder in terms of social standing. He also seems smart; accepting and aiding Dany's rule may simply be down to the fact that he saw which way the wind was blowing and decided to back the winning side.

And, really? Most people who don't like Skahaz do so because they're secretly racist? Really? Not because he tortures children, or would happily kill them to send a message, but because of his skin colour?

[OldGimletEye]

2 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

Sorry, but there are plenty of reasons Skahaz could be supporting Dany that have nothing to do with idealism. It would seem under Dany that he (and thus his family) have advanced up the ladder in terms of social standing. He also seems smart; accepting and aiding Dany's rule may simply be down to the fact that he saw which way the wind was blowing and decided to back the winning side.

Yeah, I too have a hard time seeing the Shavepate as some kind of committed social reformer, who "just does what needs to be done."
Seems like the Shavepate is mainly an opportunist, looking to advance his own and his families interest by using Dany.
In fact, I think we're told that historically the Kandaqs and the Loraqs have been in a pissing contest. That seems to indicate that the Shavepate wants to use Dany to get some payback and to eliminate his political rivals.
The Shavepate might prove useful to Dany. But, I think he would slit Dany's throat if he thought he could make a buck from doing that.

[Equilibrium]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I don't think that Skahaz is "relinquishing his privileges" any more than LF is.  Rather, he's making a bid for power, over the heads of greater lords, in the same way that LF does.

Leaving aside his attitude towards child hostages, we know that Skahaz enjoys the fighting pits as much as any other Great Master, employs torture readily, and appears to enjoy it, and advised Dany to rip out the tongue of Hazzea's father, rather than compensate him for the death of his daughter.  The last of these shows that he is no friend of the common man.

We don't know what his backstory is.  But, I doubt if he was a kind master to his slaves. 

He's certainly effective, as a plotter and chief of police.  But, he's no idealist.

He is relinquishing his privileges, Meereen suffered radical change of system, while Westeros didn't, he lost his slaves, Daenerys didn't bought the slaves and then released them, so he lost money and he gained competition in business. 

Interrogation is much more then torture it always has been, and as you said yourself we don't know what he does. Daenerys was the one who authorized it. And we don't know he enjoys it, he brings it up because he thinks it is effective.

Tongue ripping is interesting, because we still don't know for certain if Drogon killed Hazzea and of course in the off chance that it leaks to public what is to stop people from burning random children and expecting pay offs, there are bunch of chaotic camps and wandering children, it is downright dangerous precedent and it is accounting only random grifters, not Sons of the Harpy. He is no friend to chaos, anarchy and abusing Daenerys' inconsistent and emotional policies.

I see that in your interpretation of the book Skahaz is Jafar and I have nothing against saying we agree to disagree

13 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

Sorry, but there are plenty of reasons Skahaz could be supporting Dany that have nothing to do with idealism. It would seem under Dany that he (and thus his family) have advanced up the ladder in terms of social standing. He also seems smart; accepting and aiding Dany's rule may simply be down to the fact that he saw which way the wind was blowing and decided to back the winning side.

And, really? Most people who don't like Skahaz do so because they're secretly racist? Really? Not because he tortures children, or would happily kill them to send a message, but because of his skin colour?

No one said he is complete idealist, he is to an extent, he is also practical. He was dedicated and loyal to the cause beyond question for now.

Not secret racist, that is a guy with KKK robe hidden in closet. I said subconsciously biased against him because he fits the archetype of bad guy present in culture and still propagated by media on the breaks from ridiculous PC extremism between which it still schizophrenically oscillates. It is normal thing and that affects some people, but I still did say most not all, and included another subconscious bias for those who like to think of themselves as "most people" to pick from.

It was call for people to stop and think with those possible biases in mind, if those don't check, then OK, if they do, it's time to either backtrack or keep it to themselves.

Your inflammatory post on the other hand was uncalled for because it was far from my mind to imply anyone is racist and you just tried to escalate the discussion, attribute to me something I haven't said and devaluate my opinion. 

 

[WSmith84]

22 minutes ago, Equilibrium said:

He is relinquishing his privileges, Meereen suffered radical change of system, while Westeros didn't, he lost his slaves, Daenerys didn't bought the slaves and then released them, so he lost money and he gained competition in business. 

Interrogation is much more then torture it always has been, and as you said yourself we don't know what he does. Daenerys was the one who authorized it. And we don't know he enjoys it, he brings it up because he thinks it is effective.

Tongue ripping is interesting, because we still don't know for certain if Drogon killed Hazzea and of course in the off chance that it leaks to public what is to stop people from burning random children and expecting pay offs, there are bunch of chaotic camps and wandering children, it is downright dangerous precedent and it is accounting only random grifters, not Sons of the Harpy. He is no friend to chaos, anarchy and abusing Daenerys' inconsistent and emotional policies.

I see that in your interpretation of the book Skahaz is Jafar and I have nothing against saying we agree to disagree

No one said he is complete idealist, he is to an extent, he is also practical. He was dedicated and loyal to the cause beyond question for now.

Not secret racist, that is a guy with KKK robe hidden in closet. I said subconsciously biased against him because he fits the archetype of bad guy present in culture and still propagated by media on the breaks from ridiculous PC extremism between which it still schizophrenically oscillates. It is normal thing and that affects some people, but I still did say most not all, and included another subconscious bias for those who like to think of themselves as "most people" to pick from.

It was call for people to stop and think with those possible biases in mind, if those don't check, then OK, if they do, it's time to either backtrack or keep it to themselves.

Your inflammatory post on the other hand was uncalled for because it was far from my mind to imply anyone is racist and you just tried to escalate the discussion, attribute to me something I haven't said and devaluate my opinion. 

 

You said:

Quote

Most people aren't really concerned with his declared willingness to hurt children for greater good, it's subconscious, you either hate him because of your support for Oriental moral relativism and you see poor Skahaz as a traitor to the race and culture, or you consider Skahaz a prototype of ugly, brown, evil Easterner and assume his motivation is cruelty and lust for power while Aryan Jaime is always be conveniently excused when he declares willingness to kill children or indeed tries to kill children.

Most people. That carries a pretty heavy implication, regardless of what you intended. While I'm sure that might play a factor for some, I doubt it mattered to most. Also, it might help if you don't dismiss another poster's criticisms of a character with 'I see that in your interpretation of the book Skahaz is Jafar.'

And 'question sharply' is a very clear euphemism for 'torture.' Torture is hardly uncommon in this story and seems to be considered a reliable way of extracting information. Dany later complains that Skahaz brings her too many names; presumably because people being tortured will say anything to get the pain to stop. So at least she learns.

He's also extremely willing to murder the child hostages; Barristan notes that Skahaz would kill every one of them if he allowed it.

Skahaz is also clearly from a family of modest standing. Barristan calls his pyramid 'modest', the Green Grace compares his family's standing negatively to that of the family of Loraq.

Also, 'gave up his privileges'? He didn't do that because he wanted to, he did that because Dany made it illegal to own slaves. He had no choice. It was that or die. Skahaz had the sense to embrace the change and choose the winning side; it doesn't make him an idealist or friend of the common man.

And the tongue ripping is just a downright evil suggestion. A man comes to Dany after everyone else has left and shows the remains of his daughter's body to Dany, saying Drogon killed her. If he wanted to cause a fuss, he would have done so whilst there was an audience. And Skahaz's suggestion is to take the grieving father and remove his tongue. How is that anything other than evil?

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Equilibrium said:

He is relinquishing his privileges, Meereen suffered radical change of system, while Westeros didn't, he lost his slaves, Daenerys didn't bought the slaves and then released them, so he lost money and he gained competition in business. 

Interrogation is much more then torture it always has been, and as you said yourself we don't know what he does. Daenerys was the one who authorized it. And we don't know he enjoys it, he brings it up because he thinks it is effective.

Tongue ripping is interesting, because we still don't know for certain if Drogon killed Hazzea and of course in the off chance that it leaks to public what is to stop people from burning random children and expecting pay offs, there are bunch of chaotic camps and wandering children, it is downright dangerous precedent and it is accounting only random grifters, not Sons of the Harpy. He is no friend to chaos, anarchy and abusing Daenerys' inconsistent and emotional policies.

I see that in your interpretation of the book Skahaz is Jafar and I have nothing against saying we agree to disagree

. 

 

No, I see him more like an Meereenesei version of someone like Roose Bolton.  He's not someone who chews the carpet, or does things for the evulz, just a cruel and ruthless power-seeker.

[HexMachina]

1 hour ago, OldGimletEye said:

Yeah, I too have a hard time seeing the Shavepate as some kind of committed social reformer, who "just does what needs to be done."
Seems like the Shavepate is mainly an opportunist, looking to advance his own and his families interest by using Dany.
In fact, I think we're told that historically the Kandaqs and the Loraqs have been in a pissing contest. That seems to indicate that the Shavepate wants to use Dany to get some payback and to eliminate his political rivals.
The Shavepate might prove useful to Dany. But, I think he would slit Dany's throat if the thought he could make a buck from doing that.

I see him as a bit of a cross between Littlefinger and Clayton Suggs. Ambitious social climber from a less prestigious noble house (i believe this is mentioned when Dany is soeaking with the green grace about a husband, that Kandaq is lesser than Loraq) but with a brutal ruthless streak. Skahaz is looking out for number one - himself. That aligns him with Dany for a time, as he is able to gain a very influential position in Dany's court by being a Shavepate. But if it would serve his best interests to do otherwise i have no doubt he would. There is a real possibility he betrays Barristan in the upcoming Battle. The reason he doesnt align with Hizdhar or Yunkai and pro-slavery is that it improves the position of his rivals and would likely restore him to his lesser position he had before Dany arrived

[WSmith84]

8 minutes ago, SeanF said:

No, I see him more like an Meereenesei version of someone like Roose Bolton.  He's not someone who chews the carpet, or does things for the evulz, just a cruel and ruthless power-seeker.

A Meereenese Roose Bolton is probably how I'd sum him up as well. He's sensible enough to side with Dany when she's clearly going to win, and later on he's loyal because he's considered a traitor of the worst sort by the Masters and possibly some personal loyalty to Dany as well.

[WSmith84]

3 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

The reason he doesnt align with Hizdhar or Yunkai and pro-slavery is that it improves the position of his rivals and would likely restore him to his lesser position he had before Dany arrived

Not just that, but he might be stripped of his wealth and ranks entirely and made a slave. He's considered a traitor by the other slavers. That's why I don't think he'll (at least outwardly, or totally) turn on Dany, not unless he can guarantee a secure position by doing so.

Dany would seem like a very safe horse once she decided to stay and rule Meereen. No one could have predicted her flying off. It left Skahaz in a tricky position, and I can see why he's trying desperately to keep Dany's rule going.

[SeanF]

12 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I see him as a bit of a cross between Littlefinger and Clayton Suggs. Ambitious social climber from a less prestigious noble house (i believe this is mentioned when Dany is soeaking with the green grace about a husband, that Kandaq is lesser than Loraq) but with a brutal ruthless streak. Skahaz is looking out for number one - himself. That aligns him with Dany for a time, as he is able to gain a very influential position in Dany's court by being a Shavepate. But if it would serve his best interests to do otherwise i have no doubt he would. There is a real possibility he betrays Barristan in the upcoming Battle. The reason he doesnt align with Hizdhar or Yunkai and pro-slavery is that it improves the position of his rivals and would likely restore him to his lesser position he had before Dany arrived

I think he'd be in danger of much more than demotion if the pro-slavery side won.

Whether or not one believes him to be behind the poisoned locusts, he clearly worked very hard to overthrow Hizdahr's government, after Dany flew off.  I don't think that betraying Barristan would now be a option, given that the Great Masters see him and his followers as traitors.  I think he's betting the ranch on a victory over the slavers, after which, he'll carry out a purge of his enemies.