How in the hell was Arthur Dayne defeated?

[Demonking1381]

Seriously I don't understand how this guy was killed. Throughout the book series multiple people have praised him for being one of the best warriors to have ever lived but was killed by Ned and howland reed somehow at the tower of joy. Jaime says he could have killed five men with one hand and defeated the smiling knight of the kings wood brotherhood who was one of the most dangerous outlaws ever and was said to be the deadliest knight in the kings guard and the seven kingdoms by catelyn and had to go through the intense physical training to become the sword of the morining and wield dawn. So how the hell did eddard and howland reed manage to defeat this guy?

[Mladen]

Ned wasn't the ordinary fight, he was actually quite trained and at that moment, experienced in battle. I would also assume that Howland fought with net, something Arthur as the knight would be unaccustomed to, plus there must have been some sort of element of surprise. Probably Ned and Arthur fought one on one and Howland intervened when Ned was about to lose. Ned afterall did say Howland saved his life.

[Black Crow]

The dirty rotten coward Howland Reed shot poor Arthur in the back 

[PrinceHenryris]

Howland broke out his magiks.

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

Well, the fight was seven on three. Numbers count for everything. It would be truly incredible if they won. Hell, it's incredible that five of the seven were killed. For all we know, five of the seven were fighting Arthur Dayne while the others were having one on one fights. Nobody can win a sword fight against five determined, experienced combatants, no matter how good they are or how magical their swords are. Not to mention, Ned had his Valyrian steel sword, too.

He didn't stand a chance.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

35 minutes ago, Demonking1381 said:

Seriously I don't understand how this guy was killed. Throughout the book series multiple people have praised him for being one of the best warriors to have ever lived but was killed by Ned and howland reed somehow at the tower of joy. Jaime says he could have killed five men with one hand and defeated the smiling knight of the kings wood brotherhood who was one of the most dangerous outlaws ever and was said to be the deadliest knight in the kings guard and the seven kingdoms by catelyn and had to go through the intense physical training to become the sword of the morining and wield dawn. So how the hell did eddard and howland reed manage to defeat this guy?

Well for starters it was not just Ned and Howland, they are just the survivors. For all we know Dayne was fighting 3 or maybe 4 all at once and killed 2 before being killed himself.

 7 trained warriors are always going to defeat 3, especially when there is a good chance that Hightower was way past hos peak at that point and still suffering from a hand injury he received against the kingswood Brotherhood.

I honestly don't know why people have such trouble with this subject. The Kingsguard are not superheroes, they are human and can fall in battle as easily as any other Knight.

[alienarea]

A bad day of Arthur Dayne and a lucky punch by one of seven (presumably Howland Reed) is all it takes.

Imagine Anguy the Archer would decide to take out the Mountain. He would kill him with an arrow and the Mountain wouldn't see it coming.

[James Steller]

On a crazy conspiracy note, what if the three Kingsguard did indeed manage to fight off all seven men, with Ned about to die by Arthur Dayne's hand, and Howland Reed warged into Arthur, finished off the other two Kingsguard, and then warged out of Arthur just in time for Ned to kill him? Ned refuses to talk about it due to the dishonourable nature of his victory.

[alienarea]

9 minutes ago, James Steller said:

On a crazy conspiracy note, what if the three Kingsguard did indeed manage to fight off all seven men, with Ned about to die by Arthur Dayne's hand, and Howland Reed warged into Arthur, finished off the other two Kingsguard, and then warged out of Arthur just in time for Ned to kill him? Ned refuses to talk about it due to the dishonourable nature of his victory.

Alternatively, Howland Reed is a gunslinger.

[James Steller]

10 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Alternatively, Howland Reed is a gunslinger.

Ah, so the reason we haven't seen him in the series yet is because he's off pursuing the man in black?

[watcher of the night]

You should consider several things.

-Ned’s party had the numerical advantage.

-Ned’s guy were experienced, they fought through a rebellion and survived. Of course the KG had experience too, the point is that they fought good opponents not some random guys.

-IMO people underestimate Ned because he never boasted, never fought tourneys. He was trained to fight from boyhood, he learned fromthe best, he had the best weapons, which brings us to the next point.

-Ned had Ice to match up with Dawn. Perhaps that is why he fought Dayne, because they knew that the others had little chance with ordinary swords.

-Howland Reed is a wildcard. We know nothing about him. He could have used green magic, he could have used a poisoned spear, he might have been able to warg people we don’t know. He could be just a sneaky guy waiting in the shadows for the perfect moment to strike.

Put togteher all these things and the outcome is not  much of a surprise. It was a close fight; apperently Reed decided it, we don’t know how.

Ps. In the red band trailer when the ToJ scene begings (Ned’s party drawing swords) there are only six guys. This suggest that Reed might not show himself with the others. KG might have thought that they are fighting “only” six and not seven. So Dayne could have relaxed seeing that only Ned remained (i.e. Dayne might have been completely unaware of Reed).

[b00gieman]

My personal theory is that Ser Arthur Dayne allowed himself to be killed because Rhaegar shared with him what he read in the scrolls that changed his life so long ago.  That to me fits as they were best friends:

I believe that Rhaegar loved Lyanna and she was pregnant with his child. Could Rhaegar have walked away from being the heir to the throne?  I also believe that Rhaegar knew that he would lose his life on the Trident to Robert Baratheon because he read it in the scrolls that fateful day.  Rhaegar and Ser Arthur Dayne were best friends and I believe that the part of the prophecy that concerned his friend told him to lay down his life for the man who resembled or was the brother of the woman that Rhaegar loved. I believe Howland Reed saved Ned’s life by identifying him or calling out his name at a critical point in the fight between the two. So the question is did he know when the following occurred?

 

“They were seven against three.

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

 

“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.” As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming.

 

I believe that Ned was losing but after Ser Arthur Dayne became aware of whom Ned was he sacrificed himself because of the implications to the world of his killing this man. He gave up his life shortly before Lyanna gave birth and his soul was reincarnated into her child.  Lyanna is always associated with blue winter roses or blue rose petals.

The sword Dawn that Ser Arthur Dayne wielded isn’t like Valyrian Steel swords as it is said that it was made from a falling star.  It has similar characteristics of Valyrian Steel although it appears milky white.  It also isn’t passed from father to son like Valyrian Steel swords but is only passed to those in House Dayne who are considered worthy to wield it.  Who else better to become the new Sword of the Morning than the man whose soul was the previous wielder?  I believe that the Last Hero or Azor Ahai were Dayne’s also.  I believe that  Azor Ahai was the first of a line of many reincarnated souls to wield the sword Dawn in the Dayne family line.

 

Because this also happened in TWOT with Rand al’Thor’s father it happened with Jon and Ser Arthur Dayne just a little twist with Dayne not being his biological father.  But Jon to me is a Stark, Targaryen and a Dayne through Arthur’s soul.  Jon was born in the same place that the person who I believed is his reincarnated soul died.

 

“Was. So he was dead now, too. Egwene wore sympathy on her face. Rand ignored it; he did not want sympathy. How could he feel loss, for people he had never known? Yet he did. “How did Janduin die?”

 

The Wise Ones exchanged hesitant glances.  At last Amys said, "It was the beginning of the third year of the search for Laman when Shaiel found herself with child.  by the laws, she should have returned to the Threefold Land.  A Maiden is forbidden to carry the spear "while she carries a child.  but Janduin could forbid her nothing; had she asked the moon on a necklace, he would have tried to give it to her.  So she stayed, and in the last fight, before Tar Valon, she was lost, and the child was lost.  Janduin could not forgive himself for not making her obey the law.

 

He gave up his place as clan chief," Bair said.  "No one had ever done that before.  He was told it could not be done, but he simply walked away. He went north with the young men, to hunt Trollocs and Myrddraal in the Blight.  It is a thing wild young men do, and Maidens with less sense than goats.  Those who returned said he was killed by a man, though. They said Janduin claimed this man looked like Shaiel, and he would not raise his spear when the man ran him through."

Dead, then.  Both dead.  He would never lose his love for Tam, never stop thinking of him as father, but he wished he could have seen Janduin and Shaiel, just once."

Rand's father, an Aiel clan chief, would not kill Luc because he looked so much like his wife Tigraine or Shaiel her Aiel name. He sacrificed himself and let Luc kill him because of that fact alone.  His mother Tigraine gave birth to him and then she dies on the slopes of Dragonmount.  Rand is born at the same place that Lews Therin, the Lord of the Morning, who is Rand’s reincarnated soul died.  Tigraine’s personal sigil was a woman's hand gripping a thorny rose-stem with a white blossom.

[devilish]

Ned and his guards were hardly wimps. They were nobles who had been training in sword fighting for all their life and they were also battle hardened. Howland was a Reed ie an expert in guerilla warfare. They also had the numbers at their side 7 vs 3 and I believe that the hightower guy was hardly a young man by that time

[Danelle]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

The dirty rotten coward Howland Reed shot poor Arthur in the back 

The Assassination of Arthur Dayne by the Coward Howland Reed 

 

Anyway, GRRM managed to create a realistic universe, which means that anyone can be defeated.

Ser Arthur was skilled, strong but not indestructible. 

I think that the situation is similar to what Brown Ben had said about sellswords:

Quote

There are old sellswords and bold sellswords, but no old bold sellswords

 

[SevasTra82]

I always picture it like this....

....Based on what we know...Dayne, Ned, and Reed where the last 3 remaining.  Ned has stated that if it was not for Reed, then he would have died.

This leads me to believe that Ned was down for the count, and Dayne was possibly standing over him, getting ready to deal the final blow.  But right before that happened, Reed (who may have been presumed dead, or hiding out in the back), shot an arrow (or some other sort of projectile) at Dayne, taking him by surprise and killing him...saving Neds life at the last moment.

 

The fact that it was 7-to-3 odds and yet Daynes team *still* almost won the battle shows me how tough the guy was.  He was a single blow away from making it a 1-on-1 fight with Reed (who i have a feeling probably wouldn't have won).  The guy was a monster of a human, and just because he lost, doesn't discount the fact that he *barely* lost...Dayne was one kill-shot on Ned from winning it himself.

[StarkofWinterfell]

Arthur wasn't killed.........? Where do you get this idea from?

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

I think the details of the ToJ are deliberately sketchy (so far) because whatever happened there was not as straightforward as it was later reported.  All we know is that Arthur would have killed Ned had it not been for Howland, but nothing about how Howland interceded.  He could have stepped in with battle skills, magic or even well chosen words.

Howland's battle skills are dubious as we see he was easily beaten by squires and didn't feel able to take part in the tourney. With a net and trident it's possible he could hold his own but maybe not against a legendary knight with a magic sword.  I think he only holds the battle advantage on the treacherous, boggy ground at the neck where he knows how to avoid the hidden dangers and use the land to his advantage.  He is more of a defender than an attacker, I think.  As some of you pointed out above though, Arthur was not infallible.  It could have just been a lucky blow from Howland that either incapacitated or killed him.  However, if that's what happened, why not just say so?

Not sure about Howland using magic, because magic in general doesn't seem to have been very strong at that time.  A clever trick / illusion maybe or using the light or the land to his advantage.

I think Howland would too honourable to use poison in this situation.  Ned seems to have been very close to him and I don't believe Ned would accept/respect any dishonourable behaviour in battle, even with his sister at stake.  Despite Team Ned and the kingsguard being on different sides, there was mutual respect there.  

I believe it was words that saved Ned.  Howland is currently the key to unlock the mysteries at the core of these stories.  He's the last living person (that we know of) who was an eye witness at both Harrenhal and ToJ and also knows the facts about Jon Snow's origins.  We're also told that the crannogmen remember much more than anyone else about the old gods, the CoTF, greensight/dreams, etc.  And also that Howland has spent time on the isle of faces with the green men.  He has a lot of very useful information!  This may echo him having revealed something at the ToJ that was significant enough to stop Arthur killing Ned.  Remember, Ned doesn't say that Howland killed of even hurt Arthur, just that Howland stopped Arthur from killing Ned.  Or, if not a reveal, he could have been more of a negotiator and said something along the lines of "Rhaegar's son is also Ned's blood.  Ned won't harm him.  If you kill Ned, there's nobody left who can safely hide/raise him.  Ned could pass him off as a bastard."

Arthur may have already been fatally wounded from the battle at that point and died anyway - i.e. he was ultimately defeated because the KG were outnumbered.  Or, as some theorise, maybe Arthur didn't die at all that day but handed Ned his sword to take back to Starfall and went into hiding - I think this is unlikely because I can't see what purpose that would serve, but I wouldn't rule it out as there's still a lot we don't know.

 

[Jam On Toast]

With the TV show coming up, can we rely on that being an accurate answer? I suspect there will just be some fancy fight and Dayne will barely be mentioned. Season 5 was good in that for me personally I finally view the two stories as completely different - we'll get the same outcome at the end but I will probably enjoy the books more.

On the subject of Dayne, I lean towards thinking that Howland saved Eddard through words. I don't know why, just my gut feeling. No idea what happened to Dayne, perhaps he was mortally wounded any way during the fight?

 

Arthur Dayne = High Septon confirmed?

[Ygrain]

The net. We see how efficient Meera is with it to disable the opponent, and in ADWD we have Barristan's comment on the use of whip, which he first thinks useless against a knight but has to reconsider after seeing the opponent effectively disabled. Net, whip or any other disabling device will bring down anyone who is not used to them and underestimates them.

[Clegane'sPup]

5 hours ago, Demonking1381 said:

So how the hell did eddard and howland reed manage to defeat this guy?

the little crannogman threw his net over the big strong warrior & he got tangled up just as the warrior was about to put his sward through Eddard.

Damn. Ygrain beat me to it.