The positive (gasp!) GoT discussion thread (Spoilers)

[Wendel Shoemaker]

10 hours ago, Direwight said:

It's of course quite impossible to completely separate oneself from book knowledge, so it's always going to be a bit muddled. I find the criticisms/complaints/rants about subverted themes and stuff occasionally interesting to read, but it's not really an aspect I care about myself.

However, I do also think that those kind of complaints about "missing the point" of a storyline/character tend to get mixed up with complaints about wasted potential the books provided. If we look at Winterfell in season 5 for example, then there's at least two kinds of book-based criticisms: the usual about themes and whose story it is etc etc, but also simply how it could have been much better if adapted differently. I'm firmly in the camp that Winterfell in season 5 was super bad, but I think the reason is not just that it was completely different than in the book, but because I'm convinced that it could have been massively better TV for virtually no extra cost or effort, had it been adapted more based on the book. So am I complaining about the show on its own terms, or about the show as an adaptation? You can see it as both, I guess.

In any case, it's absolutely true that it's often hard to tell when fan criticism is just complaining that things got changed and when it's complaining that things got changed for the worse, and that's certainly the critic's fault.

Totally, I'm fine with the show taking different directions, I just want those decisions to make sense for the narrative and the characters.

[Mandzipop]

This is going to sound negative initially but it is a positive comment because the showrunners have admitted this was a mistake from season 5 which won't be repeated in season 6.

The show spent the first 2 episodes of season 5 almost recapping what had been going off in the previous seasons. It didn't seem to continue straight from season 4 into season 5. This left 8 episodes to tell the rest of the story. Certainly there were snippets and parts woven into the first 2 episodes of set up, however they neglected to add enough meat to the bare bones. It messed up the pacing of the show and meant that the set ups didn't seem logical as they felt rushed. When they were setting up events in the first 2 episodes, it consisted of a few lines of explanation and reasoning, whereas it needed more. An extra couple of minutes with Sansa and Littlefinger, and the northern plot could have made tons of sense. However it needed to be done early in season 5 where they didn't have time to cover it and it was very detrimental to the entire season.

The fact that they say that they are continuing from season 5 with no recap bodes well as it should help with the pacing.

There is also the suggestion that things that have never been fully explained will start to get explained in season 6.

The detours that some characters made in season 5 seem to have had something to do with the timing of the Riverlands plot.

I'm not making up excuses for the show, I'm setting out my expectations. Some plot holes may well have been intentional.

One of my favourite things about Game of Thrones is the cinematography. It makes most shows look cheap. It makes a lot of movies look cheap. The casting is 90% spot on. The locations are usually top notch. The music is brilliant.

There have been some great scenes, one that really springs to mind is Robert and Cersai.

Apart from Dorne, I don't like to criticise the show too much because I don't know what will happen in future. I won't look at the here and now aspect. Just because something doesn't make sense now, doesn't mean that it will never make sense. There might be some very good reasons for withholding information. Especially where Littlefinger is concerned.

[thehandwipes]

(Gasp) There's been like five of these threads, they never last.

The acting is consistently top-notch.  Joffrey was much funner to hate in the show than the books.  And I thought making Cersei more relatable, at first, was a good idea.  Giving Dagmer Ramsay's role in Winterfell was a smart way to simplify the story.  And this scene.

[Joe Pesci]

Rewatching through s5 and I continue to be impressed with Stephen Dillane more and more. His performance was probably the highlight of the season for me.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

On 3/26/2016 at 4:25 PM, thehandwipes said:

(Gasp) There's been like five of these threads, they never last.

The acting is consistently top-notch.  Joffrey was much funner to hate in the show than the books.  And I thought making Cersei more relatable, at first, was a good idea.  Giving Dagmer Ramsay's role in Winterfell was a smart way to simplify the story.  And this scene.

Lol, yes there have been a few, however thats more because it isn't as much fun to say nice things about people and shows, as it is to rip into them, continuously, all day every day.

I do like the way they have adapted to not being able to have inner monologues on the show, which inevitably has led them to created slightly more rounded characters than the books. Cercei in particular has more motivation for her actions in the show, and is easier to relate to, if they;d had her behave how she did in the books without the monologue she'd basically be the wicked witch of the west.

[dbunting]

I think I am like minded to Channel4snow when it comes to the series and the books. They are two separate entities to me. I would never expect a book series this huge to be matched on the screen. If it was, I probably would have stopped watching halfway through season 1 when they spent a chapter/scene describing the greasy meat.

I like almost every casting choice. Couldn't imagine this with anyone else playing Tyrion or Tywin, no way. They seem perfect for who they are supposed to be. A small man can cast a large shadow indeed!

I am so glad Sansa isn't left in the Vale. Show Sansa has so much more to add then book Sansa ever has so far.

For me some of the best action scenes on television were in the north. I loved Watchers on the Wall and Hardhome episodes. Watched them again last week. 

Dorne, well...nope. Got nothing. Oh except that one scene in the jail cell where random boobs were flashed. That's it.

 

[A Bong of Ice and Fire]

28 minutes ago, dbunting said:

I think I am like minded to Channel4snow when it comes to the series and the books. They are two separate entities to me. I would never expect a book series this huge to be matched on the screen. If it was, I probably would have stopped watching halfway through season 1 when they spent a chapter/scene describing the greasy meat.

I like almost every casting choice. Couldn't imagine this with anyone else playing Tyrion or Tywin, no way. They seem perfect for who they are supposed to be. A small man can cast a large shadow indeed!

I am so glad Sansa isn't left in the Vale. Show Sansa has so much more to add then book Sansa ever has so far.

For me some of the best action scenes on television were in the north. I loved Watchers on the Wall and Hardhome episodes. Watched them again last week. 

Dorne, well...nope. Got nothing. Oh except that one scene in the jail cell where random boobs were flashed. That's it.

 

I liked the Dorne scenes with Doran Martell.  The others, ehh... not so much, although the Myrcella death scene wasn't bad.  I expect big things in the future from Doran both in the books and on the show.  He's supposed to be a mastermind; he has to have something up his sleeve that hasn't yet been revealed.

I don't believe GRRM would put us through all those Dorne chapters in AFfC for no reason.  A pay-off must be coming.  I am betting that in the books Doran's master plan will have something to do with Darkstar, who is working for him and is actually not a Dayne but a hidden dragon.  That's why he's so "dangerous".  (It's convenient to hide him as a Dayne since they have Targaryen looks.)  Not sure what will be Doran's big play on the show.

[HexMachina]

10 hours ago, Joe Pesci said:

Rewatching through s5 and I continue to be impressed with Stephen Dillane more and more. His performance was probably the highlight of the season for me.

Yep. I never really saw the Dillane love until Season 5, but he really was the standout actor that season. It was...let's say unfortunate to be kind....that Peter Dinklage won the Emmy which Dillane was not even nominated for. Especially given Dinklage's poor performance this season. (I don't actually know who is responsible for nominating for Emmys so I don't know who to blame that he wasn't nominated. Point is, he deserved an award for his performance)

[Rhollo]

Their casting department definitely deserves a lot of praise, I think "adequate" is the worst I could say about any of their choices, most of it is actually excellent.

Costumes, sets, music, SFX are also great for the most part, although I'd wish for a bit more prominent use of house sigils/colours and the courage to adapt the weird essosi fashion to some degree. (e.g. giving Daario at least some douchy beard-shape and more colourful clothes instead of having him look like Bronns younger brother who has to wear his hand-me-downs)

[Drogonthedread]

6 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Yep. I never really saw the Dillane love until Season 5, but he really was the standout actor that season. It was...let's say unfortunate to be kind....that Peter Dinklage won the Emmy which Dillane was not even nominated for. Especially given Dinklage's poor performance this season. (I don't actually know who is responsible for nominating for Emmys so I don't know who to blame that he wasn't nominated. Point is, he deserved an award for his performance)

I guess its dillane alone who must be blamed...because I think in order to get nominated one must submit their names for the nomination and I believe Stephen did not submit his name

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, Drogonthedread said:

I guess its dillane alone who must be blamed...because I think in order to get nominated one must submit their names for the nomination and I believe Stephen did not submit his name

I'm not sure, but I think the actor submitting their own name is only one way to get nominated but not the only one.

ETA: still not sure, but had a quick look and I think I was wrong, seems now it's the actors who have to submit themselves.

And a bit of useless trivia:

other than the actors who were nominated, these were submitted as well (all in the supporting category):

NCW, Kit Harington, Natalie Dormer, Carice van Houten, Sophie Turner, and Maisie Williams. 

[Meera of Tarth]

I like all the locations they choose and how they use the special effects in them, it's seems real

[BalerionTheCat]

As almost everyone said, the casting is near perfect. Some recast were not that good however.

In comparison to the books, ageing Tommen and developing Margaery are good initiatives.

But generally, I prefer when they stick to the books. I liked a lot Joffrey's marriage, Oberyn's talk with Tyrion, Tyrion's telling about his marriage with Tysha (in S02, too bad they forgot that at the end of S04).

Otherwise, the CGI (dragons and giants particularly), the decors and costumes (different for each family, the Freys are laughable) ... all that stuff is perfect.

[thehandwipes]

On ‎3‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 3:11 PM, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Lol, yes there have been a few, however thats more because it isn't as much fun to say nice things about people and shows, as it is to rip into them, continuously, all day every day.

I do like the way they have adapted to not being able to have inner monologues on the show, which inevitably has led them to created slightly more rounded characters than the books. Cercei in particular has more motivation for her actions in the show, and is easier to relate to, if they;d had her behave how she did in the books without the monologue she'd basically be the wicked witch of the west.

Right now there are nine threads open on the first page of this forum which are dedicated to various characters and plot points of the show which nobody is using.  Most have been open for weeks and have like 5 responses.  That's because the show has no themes or character arcs worth discussing.

Not including Cersei's descent into madness after Joffrey's death was one of the show absolute worst decision and has made all of her actions incoherent and ridiculous.  But I'll respect this thread as I did all the other ones.

I'll add replacing Vargo Hoat with Locke in season 3 as a good decision.  Simplified the story in a coherent way, and having Locke cut Jaime's hand simply because he was offended at the notion of being bought added a lot of grey to a very dark character.  But of course they ruined him in season 4.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

35 minutes ago, thehandwipes said:

Right now there are nine threads open on the first page of this forum which are dedicated to various characters and plot points of the show which nobody is using.  Most have been open for weeks and have like 5 responses.  That's because the show has no themes or character arcs worth discussing.

Not including Cersei's descent into madness after Joffrey's death was one of the show absolute worst decision and has made all of her actions incoherent and ridiculous.  But I'll respect this thread as I did all the other ones.

I'll add replacing Vargo Hoat with Locke in season 3 as a good decision.  Simplified the story in a coherent way, and having Locke cut Jaime's hand simply because he was offended at the notion of being bought added a lot of grey to a very dark character.  But of course they ruined him in season 4.

Not a debate thread dude.  don't try and sneak your ranting in here 

[good girl]

My main credit to the show is how well they re-shaped Arya's arc in seasons 1-4 and kept the momentum of the plot. Her early Clash and Storms chapters are particularly poor in pacing in my opinion. There is so much pointless wanderings and frankly absurd decision making. Even the first time reading ASoS I was getting annoyed that Beric seemed to be forever away.

The way the show does it with her time in Harranhal spent mostly with Tywin is great because without being in Tyrion's head the show could have failed to get Tywin's character across without it coming off as cliche.

Similarly the BwB is done very effectively and gets everything needed in a compelling way without all the detours. Her delay into her murderous streak until after the Red Wedding makes sense and her time with the Hound is much more vibrant than in the books.

Season 5 is a bit more difficult but at least there is an arc to the whole season. Although the lighting director should be whipped naked through the streets (and not just for the Arya scenes)

[A Ghost of Someone]

I liked her hit on Meryn Trant. Overkill or not, it was good to see such a Lannsiter Lackey that had willingly and joyfully been a part of the suffering of Arya's family and friends. It felt good to see him suffer. Is there something wrong with me for this? I think not.

[Rhollo]

5 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

I liked her hit on Meryn Trant. Overkill or not, it was good to see such a Lannsiter Lackey that had willingly and joyfully been a part of the suffering of Arya's family and friends. It felt good to see him suffer. Is there something wrong with me for this? I think not.

Trant was a Lannister Lackey just as the Hound was for most of his life (Killing Mycah). The idea to make Trant her target in Braavos had a lot of potential to explore parallels between the two and make Arya somehow struggle with her decision (or obsession) to kill Trant. Instead it was "Evil, sadistic Trant deserves to die, go Arya".

Sorry for ranting, so to add something positive 

10 hours ago, thehandwipes said:

I'll add replacing Vargo Hoat with Locke in season 3 as a good decision.  Simplified the story in a coherent way, and having Locke cut Jaime's hand simply because he was offended at the notion of being bought added a lot of grey to a very dark character.  But of course they ruined him in season 4.

Yeah, I second that, Locke was maybe the best OC of the show so far. I even liked his mission of going undercover in NW for the most part, that seemed like a clever and Bolton-like plan. Of course, how things went down there, felt uncomfortably "scripted".

[ADanceWithCats]

I love a lot of what has been mentioned here - the cast, the crew, the scenery...

But my main focus in a work has always been the characters, the plot. So.

I love show Cersei - she feels like a human being, not the caricature she became to me in AFFC. Once she gets into the angry DGAF mode, you just know this will be for a reason. A very good reason, too, starting from the stark sexism of the Walk of Shame.

I love show Jaime. The book arc of 'found a second, virginal woman, immediately ditched the previous life' is something that I always felt made book Jaime a huge douche - especially when Cersei begged him to come help her and he just burned her letter. So, it's pretty cool that in the show, he's at least trying to make his old life work, for the sake of his kids if not anything else, before he'll decide that he can't do it. If I knew a real man who just ditched his three kids to go off with some floozy, without even trying to do right by them, I would feel free to judge and despise him.

I love show Brienne. She's an awesome beast, so absolutely loyal and so extremely physical. You still rarely see women being that physical, to that extent, without hint of daintiness or hesitation or excuse or impostor's syndrome, on screen. She knows what she is, the writers know who and what she is, and that's great. Also, aging her up and making her slightly world-weary and cynical was a great decision, I think - it makes the power balance between her and Jaime less. I'm looking forward to seeing them two hook up!

On the matter of power balance, I love the altered balance between Dany and Daario. In the books, it felt like, in spite of all her power, she was being led on by that old crook. On the show, she's just plain smarter. Show Daario, on his part, reads like that boyfriend who knows that his partner has a higher position in a company and earns more than him... and is OK with that. And that's great, too, because he knows he has his own things and does not need the higher status in the relationship to prove that he's a man. Weirdly (and coolly!) progressive, too.

I love that the show is cutting a lot of the extraneous plots and characters. Aegon, Quentyn, the Vale people... sorry. Can't be arsed to care for any of them. The Sansa chapter where she's arranging a tournament where everywhere else there is a genuine war? Yawn. It's like the orchestra playing on the Titanic, obviously, and I admire the sheer stubborn blindedness of that, but that doesn't mean that I want to see Sansa do nothing on screen. I think that the books made many a misstep in adding these subplots, so I'm glad to see them gone. Keep your eyes on the endgame, HBO!

And finally: I love show Sansafinger. I'm looking forward to seeing them back together! Besides all else, Sansafinger is kinky, in exactly the way I love it... it's like something from Dangerous Liaisons, one of my favourite books ever.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

2 minutes ago, ADanceWithCats said:

I love a lot of what has been mentioned here - the cast, the crew, the scenery...

But my main focus in a work has always been the characters, the plot. So.

I love show Cersei - she feels like a human being, not the caricature she became to me in AFFC. Once she gets into the angry DGAF mode, you just know this will be for a reason. A very good reason, too, starting from the stark sexism of the Walk of Shame.

I love show Jaime. The book arc of 'found a second, virginal woman, immediately ditched the previous life' is something that I always felt made book Jaime a huge douche - especially when Cersei begged him to come help her and he just burned her letter. So, it's pretty cool that in the show, he's at least trying to make his old life work, for the sake of his kids if not anything else, before he'll decide that he can't do it. If I knew a real man who just ditched his three kids to go off with some floozy, without even trying to do right by them, I would feel free to judge and despise him.

I love show Brienne. She's an awesome beast, so absolutely loyal and so extremely physical. You still rarely see women being that physical, to that extent, without hint of daintiness or hesitation or excuse or impostor's syndrome, on screen. She knows what she is, the writers know who and what she is, and that's great. Also, aging her up and making her slightly world-weary and cynical was a great decision, I think - it makes the power balance between her and Jaime less. I'm looking forward to seeing them two hook up!

On the matter of power balance, I love the altered balance between Dany and Daario. In the books, it felt like, in spite of all her power, she was being led on by that old crook. On the show, she's just plain smarter. Show Daario, on his part, reads like that boyfriend who knows that his partner has a higher position in a company and earns more than him... and is OK with that. And that's great, too, because he knows he has his own things and does not need the higher status in the relationship to prove that he's a man. Weirdly (and coolly!) progressive, too.

I love that the show is cutting a lot of the extraneous plots and characters. Aegon, Quentyn, the Vale people... sorry. Can't be arsed to care for any of them. The Sansa chapter where she's arranging a tournament where everywhere else there is a genuine war? Yawn. It's like the orchestra playing on the Titanic, obviously, and I admire the sheer stubborn blindedness of that, but that doesn't mean that I want to see Sansa do nothing on screen. I think that the books made many a misstep in adding these subplots, so I'm glad to see them gone. Keep your eyes on the endgame, HBO!

And finally: I love show Sansafinger. I'm looking forward to seeing them back together! Besides all else, Sansafinger is kinky, in exactly the way I love it... it's like something from Dangerous Liaisons, one of my favourite books ever.

Great post. I also love a lot of the balancing and humanising of characters they have done on show. They have to be a bit more rounded or they would come across as caricatures without inner monologues.