LiveFirstDieLater Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 I think what is often held up as the biggest evidence of R+L=J is that when Ned shows up at the Tower of Joy there are three King's Guard, including the commander, who have remained there rather than participate in the war (Robert's Rebellion). The reasoning seems to go that the kingsgaurd would only have a duty to stay there if Lyanna is pregnant, and thus has a royal heir. But hold on a minute... GRRM has gone to great lengths to make clear the laws of succession for the Targaryen Dynasty. I hate quoting the wiki but here it is: Targaryen inheritance differs from the inheritance customs in the rest of Westeros. In 92 AC Jaehaerys I Targaryen passed over Rhaenys, the daughter of his deceased eldest son, Aemon, in favor of the king's next eldest son, Baleon. Many Westerosi lords preferred a male line over a female line, and many believed the Great Council of 101 AC set a precedent that the Iron Throne could not pass to a woman or through a woman to her male descendents.[15] Jaehaerys's eventual successor, Baelon's son Viserys I Targaryen, disregarded the precedents of 92 AC and 101 AC, however, and named his daughter Rhaenyra Targaryen as his heir.[16] This eventually led to the civil war known as the Dance of the Dragons. According to a semi-canon source, women came after all men in the Targaryen succession after the Dance of the Dragons.[17] The execution of this custom was seen within decades after the Dance, when, after the deaths of both King Daeron I and King Baelor I, their uncle, Viserys II, inherited the throne, and the claims of the three sisters of Daeron and Baelor or their children were passed over.[18]After the death of King Maekar I Targaryen, the claim of his simple-minded granddaughter Vaella Targaryen was immediately dismissed.[19] A male always comes first in the line of succession, the fact that Viserys I and Viserys II are perfect examples is just icing on the cake... Now just a refresher of Ned's memory of the showdown at the Tower of Joy: "Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him." "Ser Willem is a good man and true," said Ser Oswell. "But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee." "Then or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm. "We swore a vow," explained old Ser Gerold. They swore a vow, they did not flee, THEN OR NOW, and they didn't go to "Prince Viserys"... This means they felt it was their duty to stay at the Tower of Joy... Now that only makes sense to me if they believe the heir is there... But they had to know Lyanna had given birth to a boy, because if it was a girl then Viserys would be the heir... And if the boy was already born, to require the attention of these three King's Guard... And Lyanna died from giving birth shortly before Ned arrives... Then she must have had a second pregnancy, because the heir (presumably Jon) would have had to already been around for a while... Say about 9 months... I know it probably seems crazy, so fire away... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aedam Targaryen Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 It seems like one of the points that you are making is that Jon would become heir over Danaerys because he is male, but at this time Viserys is still alive, and obviously older than Jon, and also male. So I don't see where the male/female succession stuff has anything to do with the kings guard staying at the TOJ. Also, even if Jon wasn't the heir, wouldn't the kings guard stay to protect an otherwise unprotected prince, rather than running to Dragonstone to protect Danaerys and Viserys, whom are already under the protection of the people that smuggled them out of kings landing? Of course ideally the KG would protect the heir, but to do so they would have to leave Prince Jon and his mother even more at risk. Also, you're implying Jon has a sibling that we don't know about, but I'm not sure who you think that would be. I think Lyanna was only missing for 9-12 months. I'm not a timeline expert, but that's how I remember it. That means she would have had to get pregnant with Jon 6-9 months before being 'kidnapped', and hide said pregnancy. On the flip side of that, it seems unlikely, but even as I type this I'm thinking, what's probably the most common reason a noble girl would run away from a good noble family... if she got pregnant out of wedlock to someone she wasn't betrothed to. So I guess I agree. And I don't. Haha! Dammit George! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wondering Wolf Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 I think Lyanna died in the aftermath of the birth, not during the birth itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedShirt47 Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 3 minutes ago, Aedam Targaryen said: Also, even if Jon wasn't the heir, wouldn't the kings guard stay to protect an otherwise unprotected prince, Especially if Rhaegar believed that this was The Prince That Was Promised (who's song is The Song of Ice and Fire). The Hightowers and Daynes have arcane / mystical elements in their families and may have believe as Rhaegar did, or were simply following Rhaegar's orders out of a sense of duty to their Liege. Jon doesn't need to be the next in line to the Throne to be an heir. Third in line to the Throne is still an heir and worthy of protection. Twelveth in line is still worthy of protection by the royal protectors. Jon is still a son of their liege and they would protect him. Even if he's a Bastard I think they would protect him, so I don't see them being there as proof that there was a marriage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: I think what is often held up as the biggest evidence of R+L=J is that when Ned shows up at the Tower of Joy there are three King's Guard, including the commander, who have remained there rather than participate in the war (Robert's Rebellion). You're mixing up things a bit here. It would have been perfectly legitimate for the KG to stay at ToJ under Rhaegar's orders (and GRRM did say that Rhaegar was entitled to giving them orders), up till the point when the rest of the KG are dead or defected and Viserys, the supposed new king, is alone without any KG protection and the KG first duty is not being fulfilled by anyone. As soon as they learned this, at least one of them should have gone to Viserys. The fact that they didn't, nor do they show any inclination to in the dialogue with Ned, is considered as proof that in their eyes, Viserys is not king but someone else is, and that someone is present at ToJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dornishdame Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 6 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said: I think Lyanna died in the aftermath of the birth, not during the birth itself. I agree with this - bed of blood = childbirth, not a literal bed full of blood. I think Ned did tell the truth to Robert about a fever taking Lyanna; he just wasn't overly specific about the type of fever. Post-partum fever does not necessarily require Lyanna to die immediately after the birth of her child. We consider Jane Seymour to have died of post-partum fever, and she died around 12 days after the birth of her son, Edward VI. I tend to think that Jon was born either earlier in the day, or a day or two before the Tower of Joy battle took place. That would give time for them to see a son had been born to Rhaegar and swear fealty to the child. Whent is noted as kneeling when Ned approaches the Kingsguard; implying that they have already bent the knee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 The problem with that theory is it doesn't answer this basic question: What was at the Tower of Joy that was more important than protecting Viserys and Dany? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Viserys Targaryen IV Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 The King's Guard would have needed to stay at the Tower to see if the baby was a boy or girl. If Lyanna's unborn child is a boy it is ahead of Viserys in the line of succession. So they had to stay till the baby was born. Lyanna died AFTER the birth due to infection/ fever (probably @ a week to 2 weeks later). If the baby had been a girl, most likely two of the guards would have left to be with Viserys and the third would have stayed with plans to escort Lyanna and the baby Targaryen Princess to Dragonstone when they were OK to travel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted March 23, 2016 Author Share Posted March 23, 2016 So maybe I wasn't clear, and the timeline is difficult at best so I guess I should elaborate... The Kingsguard at the tower included the Commander, Ser Gerold Hightower, The White Bull. He was not one of Rhaegars friends and confidants like Ser Dayne and Ser Whent... He is sent to find Rhaegar, but remains at the Tower of Joy rather than accompany Rhaegar back to King's Landing. Clearly this takes place before the battle of the Trident, as Rhaegar still has to raise an army to fight, and lose, that battle. So when I say Jon was a reason for the Kingsguard to stay at the ToJ... I'm not talking a few days while Lyanns bleeds out... I'm talking about months. Months in which they seem to have had some news about the goings on of the war as they don't seem surprised by Ned's news... And months in which rather than fight with Rhaegar on the Trident, defend Aerys in King's Landing, or protect a male child Targaryen Viserys, they sit at the Tower of Joy. In fact Ned's memory of their exchange goes through all of these possibilities specifically and ends with "the Kingsguard does not run"... "Then or now"... and while I believe that this is a compelling argument in itself, there is a great deal of coroborating evidence as well... While I have a whole larger theory about that second child (it's Dany), and a ton of other reasons why it's not only probable but more plausible than the traditional take. I wanted to float this little tidbit out there and see if I was missing something significant first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted March 23, 2016 Author Share Posted March 23, 2016 37 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said: The problem with that theory is it doesn't answer this basic question: What was at the Tower of Joy that was more important than protecting Viserys and Dany? Jon? my point is that Jon had to have been born earlier than many suspect... And that the birth that ended up killing Lyanna had to be a second child Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: This means they felt it was their duty to stay at the Tower of Joy... Now that only makes sense to me if they believe the heir is there... But they had to know Lyanna had given birth to a boy, because if it was a girl then Viserys would be the heir... ~Not really. Like in real world; the Throne would be vacant until the birth when the child would be either crowned or the crown would be given to the person that is next in line. And if the boy was already born, to require the attention of these three King's Guard... And Lyanna died from giving birth shortly before Ned arrives... Then she must have had a second pregnancy, because the heir (presumably Jon) would have had to already been around for a while... Say about 9 months...~GRRM has already told us that Jon was born around the time of the Sack so no their isn't time for a second pregnancy. I know it probably seems crazy, so fire away... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Viserys Targaryen IV Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 3 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: Jon? my point is that Jon had to have been born earlier than many suspect... And that the birth that ended up killing Lyanna had to be a second child For that to be true, Lyanna would had to been pregnant already at Harrenhal. Would need at least 18 months to give birth to two children, the war was not long enough for that to be true unless Lyanna was pregnant BEFORE she left with Rhaegar (meaning that her kid would be who's exactly?) Plus, then Jon would be considerably older than Robb, something that someone would have noticed when a toddler showed up at Winterfell next to infant Robb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted March 23, 2016 Author Share Posted March 23, 2016 1 hour ago, Ygrain said: You're mixing up things a bit here. It would have been perfectly legitimate for the KG to stay at ToJ under Rhaegar's orders (and GRRM did say that Rhaegar was entitled to giving them orders), up till the point when the rest of the KG are dead or defected and Viserys, the supposed new king, is alone without any KG protection and the KG first duty is not being fulfilled by anyone. As soon as they learned this, at least one of them should have gone to Viserys. The fact that they didn't, nor do they show any inclination to in the dialogue with Ned, is considered as proof that in their eyes, Viserys is not king but someone else is, and that someone is present at ToJ. I would buy that Rhaegar ordered Dayne and Whent to stay, hey, they are his boys... But the fact that Gerald Hightower stayed, when Rhaegar was being recalled to Kings Landing to raise an army and fight a war? As soon as Rhaegar died why didn't they leave? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Viserys Targaryen IV Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 1 minute ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: I would buy that Rhaegar ordered Dayne and Whent to stay, hey, they are his boys... But the fact that Gerald Hightower stayed, when Rhaegar was being recalled to Kings Landing to raise an army and fight a war? As soon as Rhaegar died why didn't they leave? Because Rhaegar and Lyanna were married and she was pregnant with his child. Aerys and Aegon were protected in the Capitol with another King's Guard, the Targaryen army and the cities Goldcloaks. They were safer than Lyanna was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 5 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: I would buy that Rhaegar ordered Dayne and Whent to stay, hey, they are his boys... But the fact that Gerald Hightower stayed, when Rhaegar was being recalled to Kings Landing to raise an army and fight a war? ~Because Rhaegar was the Crown Prince and unlike Aegon, Jon hadn't and army to protect him. As soon as Rhaegar died why didn't they leave? ~Because Jon was the new King. With Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon dead Jon was next in line. As you have already quoted; Quote “Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.” “Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell. “But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.” “Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm. “We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Targaryen Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 21 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said: The King's Guard would have needed to stay at the Tower to see if the baby was a boy or girl. If Lyanna's unborn child is a boy it is ahead of Viserys in the line of succession. So they had to stay till the baby was born. Lyanna died AFTER the birth due to infection/ fever (probably @ a week to 2 weeks later). Yeah, IMO this basically answers the whole thread. It's not complicated at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted March 23, 2016 Author Share Posted March 23, 2016 2 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said: For that to be true, Lyanna would had to been pregnant already at Harrenhal. Would need at least 18 months to give birth to two children, the war was not long enough for that to be true unless Lyanna was pregnant BEFORE she left with Rhaegar (meaning that her kid would be who's exactly?) Plus, then Jon would be considerably older than Robb, something that someone would have noticed when a toddler showed up at Winterfell next to infant Robb. Actually I don't think this is factually correct... Rhaegar was already missing from Dragonstone and Kingslanding during the first month of 282... The Tower of Joy showdown was likely near the end of 283... Rhaella dies in childbirth on Dragonstone in 284... Just as an example, Elia and Rhaegar were married in 280, Rhaenys was born in 280 and Aegon was born before the end of 281... So two kids in the same timeframe, same dad even... Now the Rob thing opens a whole can of worms... But besides the fact that it's almost impossible for Jon to be 9 months older than Dany (the often quoted GRRM SSM) and younger than Rob... I think there is actually a bit of evidence that Jon is older than Rob, Catlyn, as per usual, is just a very bad source of information when it comes to Jon. There is the odd but about Jon winning on fights, the inheritance issue, and Lewin's odd bastard aging quote... But more importantly just think about the common theories regarding Jon's mom ( i.e. Sahara, Wylla, or a fisherman's daughter) if you try and put any of them on a timeline they all make Jon older than Rob... Also, it seems like a bit of time passed before Cat got to Winterfell and found Jon waiting... Is that really the hardest part of Ned's story to pull off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 13 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: So maybe I wasn't clear, and the timeline is difficult at best so I guess I should elaborate... The Kingsguard at the tower included the Commander, Ser Gerold Hightower, The White Bull. He was not one of Rhaegars friends and confidants like Ser Dayne and Ser Whent... He is sent to find Rhaegar, but remains at the Tower of Joy rather than accompany Rhaegar back to King's Landing. Clearly this takes place before the battle of the Trident, as Rhaegar still has to raise an army to fight, and lose, that battle. So when I say Jon was a reason for the Kingsguard to stay at the ToJ... I'm not talking a few days while Lyanns bleeds out... I'm talking about months. Months in which they seem to have had some news about the goings on of the war as they don't seem surprised by Ned's news... And months in which rather than fight with Rhaegar on the Trident, defend Aerys in King's Landing, or protect a male child Targaryen Viserys, they sit at the Tower of Joy. In fact Ned's memory of their exchange goes through all of these possibilities specifically and ends with "the Kingsguard does not run"... "Then or now"... and while I believe that this is a compelling argument in itself, there is a great deal of coroborating evidence as well... While I have a whole larger theory about that second child (it's Dany), and a ton of other reasons why it's not only probable but more plausible than the traditional take. I wanted to float this little tidbit out there and see if I was missing something significant first. It may have been months before Rhaegar went to the Trident but between the Trident and the Sack, there was only a short amount of time (about a fortnight - based on Aerys burning Chelstead and naming Rossart). And while it is clear that the KG were receiving news, it is also clear that there must have been a delay. So, by the time they learned about the Trident and the Sack, there was nothing they could do, and Jon was most likely already born, or the date of the delivery was very close. 11 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: my point is that Jon had to have been born earlier than many suspect... And that the birth that ended up killing Lyanna had to be a second child As others have pointed out, definitely not - or at least, definitely not so much earlier to allow another pregnancy. He may be a couple of months older than we are led to believe, so he is possibly older than Robb, but not much, or else no-one would believe that he was conceived after Ned married Cat. 3 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: I would buy that Rhaegar ordered Dayne and Whent to stay, hey, they are his boys... But the fact that Gerald Hightower stayed, when Rhaegar was being recalled to Kings Landing to raise an army and fight a war? Gerold Hightower's presence is definitely a big red sign but even he was bound to obey Rhaegar's orders (unless they clashed with the king's). There is a SSM (someone might have a link) where George states that KG don't get to make their own orders. After all, we do see Rhaegar assigning the remaining KG to himself and Aerys. Plus, Rhaegar may have had a leverage against Hightower, who, without a doubt, was not happy about staying at ToJ: Rhaegar may have made Hightower's staying a condition for his own return to KL. 3 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: As soon as Rhaegar died why didn't they leave? As I stated above: "as soon as" in their case might have meant several weeks, until it was too late to do anything, and Jon's birth changed their priorities. 7 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: .~GRRM has already told us that Jon was born around the time of the Sack so no their isn't time for a second pregnancy. To be fair, he didn't - he said that Jon was born 8-9 months before Dany, who is stated to have been born 9 months after the Sack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 3 minutes ago, Ygrain said: To be fair, he didn't - he said that Jon was born 8-9 months before Dany, who is stated to have been born 9 months after the Sack. Sorry it's my mistake. But my point still stands, there was no time for a second pregnancy after Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 1 minute ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: Sorry it's my mistake. But my point still stands, there was no time for a second pregnancy after Jon. I am certainly not disputing that :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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