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KG at the ToJ mean Lyanna didn't die birthing Jon...


LiveFirstDieLater

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So I'm clearly having trouble getting my problem with this classic timeline across. So let me try this way.

The Battle of the Bells is the first verified event of 283AC.

After this battle a number of things happen, Jon Con is exiled and Chelstead is made hand...

also, Gerold Hightower is sent to find Rheagar...

There is a double wedding with Ned & Cat and Aryn and Lysa... (Rob conceived)

Rhaegar returns to Kings Landing and raises an army.

Chelstead is burned and Rhaella is impregnated with the baby who would be Stormborn and kill her.

This is all before the Battle of the Trident

ok pause... It's like a shell game but with babies...

For the Kingsguard to stay at the ToJ, because Lyanna is pregnant, she would have to know she was pregnant... Right?

Now, I don't think you can have Lyanna know she is pregnant with a child who would be born after Rob but still 9 months before Rhaella's...

Something has to give...

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17 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I think there is actually a bit of evidence that Jon is older than Rob, Catlyn, as per usual, is just a very bad source of information when it comes to Jon.

There's no evidence that Catelyn is a bad source of information on Jon, especially regarding his age. Sure, she's biased against him but that doesn't preclude her being accurate about his age and development.

She believed him to be Ned's bastard conceived after their marriage and she believed that until she died. As the mother of five children herself, there's no cause to consider that she could be mistaken about the age of a baby.

In addition, if she could have believed that Jon was older than Robb - and therefore not a product of infidelity by her husband - don't you think she would have grabbed onto that belief and held onto it for dear life, thereby saving herself a great deal of grief and bitterness?

 

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26 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Actually I don't think this is factually correct... 

Rhaegar was already missing from Dragonstone and Kingslanding during the first month of 282...  The Tower of Joy showdown was likely near the end of 283... Rhaella dies in childbirth on Dragonstone in 284...

Just as an example, Elia and Rhaegar were married in 280, Rhaenys was born in 280 and Aegon was born before the end of 281... So two kids in the same timeframe, same dad even...

 

Now the Rob thing opens a whole can of worms... But besides the fact that it's almost impossible for Jon to be 9 months older than Dany (the often quoted GRRM SSM) and younger than Rob... I think there is actually a bit of evidence that Jon is older than Rob, Catlyn, as per usual, is just a very bad source of information when it comes to Jon. There is the odd but about Jon winning on fights, the inheritance issue, and Lewin's odd bastard aging quote... But more importantly just think about the common theories regarding Jon's mom ( i.e. Sahara, Wylla, or a fisherman's daughter) if you try and put any of them on a timeline they all make Jon older than Rob...

Also, it seems like a bit of time passed before Cat got to Winterfell and found Jon waiting... Is that really the hardest part of Ned's story to pull off?

Rhaegar left just before New Year 281 (so basically the beginning of 282)

"The False Spring of 281 AC lasted less than two turns. As the year drew to a close, winter returned to Westeros with a vengeance. On the last day of the year, snow began to fall upon King's Landing, and a crust of ice formed atop the Blackwater Rush. The snowfall continued off and on for the best part of a fortnight, by which time the Blackwater was hard frozen, and icicles draped the roofs and gutters of every tower in the city.
As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon's turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides."
 
Daenerys' 14th Name Day is in early June 298, meaning that she was born in June 284. We know that Daenerys was born @ 8 to 9 months after Jon according to GRRM, meaning Jon was born @ August/ September 283.
 
So yes, there is technically enough time IF Rhaegar got Lyanna pregnant immediately and then did the same as soon as Jon was born..
But again, that would mean that Jon was actually born @ September 282. Meaning that by the time he arrived at Winterfell he would have had to be @ 15 months old. There is now way that any one is ever going to think that Jon was younger than Robb.
 
And if Ned did have a 15 month old bastard that would mean Ned slept with a women BEFORE his marriage to Cat, and it not have been a dishonor to her or their marriage (yes, Ned would still see it as a dishonor but would Cat?)
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The rightful King of Westeros after the death of Aerys II Targaryen was Viserys III Targaryen, the boy who was chosen by his father as his heir, and subsequently crowned on Dragonstone (presumably) with his mother's crown.

Lyanna's son most likely was born as a royal prince, since there is a pretty good chance that Lyanna and Rhaegar were, indeed, married. But he wasn't 'the king'. You don't just become 'the king' in a society like Westeros because the previous king died. To become a king you have to be proclaimed, crowned, anointed, and cheered. You have to wear a crown, sit a throne (preferably the Iron Throne), and do kingly things.

[I know that Viserys III never did this stuff either, but he was 'the rightful king' in the eyes of the Targaryen loyalists.]

We know that certain rituals have to be done before somebody becomes a king. Stannis has to proclaim and crown himself before he is considered a pretender to the throne even in the main series. He doesn't come out with that whole thing until he writes his letter, stupidly allowing Renly to make the first move.

The knights at the tower might have thought Lyanna's son should be king, or that he was a (good) claimant to the throne, but they had neither the right nor the means to make him king. The war was lost. Their duty would have been to protect him not to crown (and thus kill) him.

The 'We swore a vow' line shouldn't interpreted as 'We swore a vow to King [insert the original given name of Lyanna's son] Targaryen' but either as the general vow of the Kingsguard to protect and obey (which could have caused them to extend that obedience and protection to Rhaegar's other family) or as a special vow they swore to Rhaegar when Gerold Hightower found him.

You cannot swear a vow to an infant king, and neither can an infant king accept your services. A vow to a person always involves two persons, else you aren't a member of the Kingsguard or a retainer but a stalker or madman who is in need of immediate medical attention...

Finally, we actually have no idea what those guys had planned (if they had time to plan). Them dying for Lyanna/the child doesn't mean they were still in the game for the crown. They could just have feared for the lives of the child without thinking the boy should wear a crown (or House Targaryen should ever be restored to the Iron Throne of Aegon the Conqueror).

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3 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

I am certainly not disputing that :-)

Actually, I am!

I agree that GRRM has said that Jon is about 8-9 months older than Dany...

I will agree that Rhaella died giving birth to a baby about 9 months after the sack of King's Landing... "Stormborn" (side note: ever ask yourself where the ship Darry escaped on came from? The storm wrecked the entire Targ fleet...)

But the whole point of this is that I do not believe Dany is Rhaella's baby... But I was trying to have an isolated discussion about just the ToJ part while I finish up a full thread on my R+L=J&D...

I welcome criticism, I just ask that you base it in the text or find the SSM you are quoting GRRM from... Thanks

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I'll throw this here...

There's the fact that the events at the ToJ likely happened months after Jaime being a witness to Rhaella's rape.
Rhaella was pregnant when she left King's Landing.
But at this point in time, Ned hadn't even reached King's Landing yet... After the Trident, Ned rushed to King's Landing, found Jaime on the Iron Throne, then waited for wounded Robert to arrive in King's Landing, quarelled with him, left for Storm's End (where he lifted a siege that had lasted for a year) and then left for the Tower of Joy where he found Lyanna.
The problem is, if Jon is 8-9 months older than Dany... Then it's pretty difficult for him to have been born at the ToJ.
 

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1 minute ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

Rhaegar left just before New Year 281 (so basically the beginning of 282)

"The False Spring of 281 AC lasted less than two turns. As the year drew to a close, winter returned to Westeros with a vengeance. On the last day of the year, snow began to fall upon King's Landing, and a crust of ice formed atop the Blackwater Rush. The snowfall continued off and on for the best part of a fortnight, by which time the Blackwater was hard frozen, and icicles draped the roofs and gutters of every tower in the city.
As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon's turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides."
 
Daenerys' 14th Name Day is in early June 298, meaning that she was born in June 284. We know that Daenerys was born @ 8 to 9 months after Jon according to GRRM, meaning Jon was born @ August/ September 283.
 
So yeas, there is technically enough time IF Rhaegar got Lyanna pregnant immediately and then did the same as soon as Jon was born..
But again, that would mean that Jon was actually born @ September 282. Meaning that by the time he arrived at Winterfell he would have had to be @ 15 months old. There is now way that any one is ever going to think that Jon was younger than Robb.
 
And if Ned did have a 15 month old bastard that would mean Ned slept with a women BEFORE his marriage to Cat, and it not have been a dishonor to her or their marriage (yes, Ned would still see it as a dishonor but would Cat?)

Where did the Greco-Roman calendar come into this? 

Sorry but I'm highly suspicious of you just stating Dany's birthday was in June when never in the books do they name months like we do...

after that you kind of lost me... 

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4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The rightful King of Westeros after the death of Aerys II Targaryen was Viserys III Targaryen, the boy who was chosen by his father as his heir, and subsequently crowned on Dragonstone (presumably) with his mother's crown.

Lyanna's son most likely was born as a royal prince, since there is a pretty good chance that Lyanna and Rhaegar were, indeed, married. But he wasn't 'the king'. You don't just become 'the king' in a society like Westeros because the previous king died. To become a king you have to be proclaimed, crowned, anointed, and cheered. You have to wear a crown, sit a throne (preferably the Iron Throne), and do kingly things.

[I know that Viserys III never did this stuff either, but he was 'the rightful king' in the eyes of the Targaryen loyalists.]

We know that certain rituals have to be done before somebody becomes a king. Stannis has to proclaim and crown himself before he is considered a pretender to the throne even in the main series. He doesn't come out with that whole thing until he writes his letter, stupidly allowing Renly to make the first move.

The knights at the tower might have thought Lyanna's son should be king, or that he was a (good) claimant to the throne, but they had neither the right nor the means to make him king. The war was lost. Their duty would have been to protect him not to crown (and thus kill) him.

The 'We swore a vow' line shouldn't interpreted as 'We swore a vow to King [insert the original given name of Lyanna's son] Targaryen' but either as the general vow of the Kingsguard to protect and obey (which could have caused them to extend that obedience and protection to Rhaegar's other family) or as a special vow they swore to Rhaegar when Gerold Hightower found him.

You cannot swear a vow to an infant king, and neither can an infant king accept your services. A vow to a person always involves two persons, else you aren't a member of the Kingsguard or a retainer but a stalker or madman who is in need of immediate medical attention...

Finally, we actually have no idea what those guys had planned (if they had time to plan). Them dying for Lyanna/the child doesn't mean they were still in the game for the crown. They could just have feared for the lives of the child without thinking the boy should wear a crown (or House Targaryen should ever be restored to the Iron Throne of Aegon the Conqueror).

I think that the easiest explanation is that the 3 King's Guard had no idea that Aerys made Viserys his heir. It does not seem to be a widely talked about or known fact.

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11 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I welcome criticism, I just ask that you base it in the text or find the SSM you are quoting GRRM from... Thanks

You mean something like that: 

Quote

We know from this e-mail that Jon’s birth is 8-9 months prior to Daenerys’s, and that Daenerys is born almost precisely 9 months after the death of Rhaegar and the Sack of King’s Landing (I: 25). http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/Who_are_Jon_Snows_parents/

 

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I have a simple enough answer, I think.

First, the three stayed simply on Rhaegar's orders. He happened to be the ranking Targaryen on the scene, so when he says "Stay", they stay.

Time passes. Lyanna's nearly nine months pregnant. The Trident happens, the Sack of King's Landing happens, the news reach the Tower of Joy. "What do we do now, my lord? The king is dead, and so are Princes Rhaegar and Aegon." "Our duty is with Prince Viserys... but if Lady Lyanna has Rhaegar's son, then he, not Viserys, is king. We'll know soon enough. I say we wait a few days".

It's a boy.

Soon thereafter, Ned & Co. arrive, the epic fight ensues, Ned wins 2:0. Days, maybe hours, later, Lyanna dies.

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I think what is often held up as the biggest evidence of R+L=J is that when Ned shows up at the Tower of Joy there are three King's Guard, including the commander, who have remained there rather than participate in the war (Robert's Rebellion).

The reasoning seems to go that the kingsgaurd would only have a duty to stay there if Lyanna is pregnant, and thus has a royal heir.

But hold on a minute... GRRM has gone to great lengths to make clear the laws of succession for the Targaryen Dynasty.

Actually, GRRM has gone to great lengths to convey that the laws of succession, the Iron Throne included, were anything but clear . But that's for another thread. (There's where, some time ago, I explained why it's not actually as simple as the wiki would you believe.)

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5 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Where did the Greco-Roman calendar come into this? 

Sorry but I'm highly suspicious of you just stating Dany's birthday was in June when never in the books do they name months like we do...

after that you kind of lost me... 

A timeline of the books put together shows the dates here:

http://towerofthehand.com/essays/johnny/roberts_rebellion.html

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7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The rightful King of Westeros after the death of Aerys II Targaryen was Viserys III Targaryen, the boy who was chosen by his father as his heir, and subsequently crowned on Dragonstone (presumably) with his mother's crown. Seems like a pretty bold presumption to think you know this... But I agree Aery's named him heir over Aegon... But did Aery's know about Jon, or did the Kinsfuard know about Aerys's naming Viserys?

Lyanna's son most likely was born as a royal prince, since there is a pretty good chance that Lyanna and Rhaegar were, indeed, married. But he wasn't 'the king'. You don't just become 'the king' in a society like Westeros because the previous king died. To become a king you have to be proclaimed, crowned, anointed, and cheered. You have to wear a crown, sit a throne (preferably the Iron Throne), and do kingly things.

[I know that Viserys III never did this stuff either, but he was 'the rightful king' in the eyes of the Targaryen loyalists.] So either I'm missing the distinction here or there isn't one... It seems like even the loyalists were talking about deposing Aerys at this point...

We know that certain rituals have to be done before somebody becomes a king. Stannis has to proclaim and crown himself before he is considered a pretender to the throne even in the main series. He doesn't come out with that whole thing until he writes his letter, stupidly allowing Renly to make the first move. Interestingly, one could note that "our knees do not bend easily" was preceded by a description of Ser Whent on one knee in front of the tower...

The knights at the tower might have thought Lyanna's son should be king, or that he was a (good) claimant to the throne, but they had neither the right nor the means to make him king. The war was lost. Their duty would have been to protect him not to crown (and thus kill) him. I've read this a lot around these forums and I don't think I agree... It seems to be the difference between a brothers love and a Kingsguard's duty... Ned could lie to "save the children" while for the Kingsguard the ToJ was only the beginning...

The 'We swore a vow' line shouldn't interpreted as 'We swore a vow to King [insert the original given name of Lyanna's son] Targaryen' but either as the general vow of the Kingsguard to protect and obey (which could have caused them to extend that obedience and protection to Rhaegar's other family) or as a special vow they swore to Rhaegar when Gerold Hightower found him. I think it is pretty clear he's talking about the kingsgaurd vow... Which explicitly and at great length has been described as being for life... Not the life of the King, but the life of the man serving in the Kingsguard.

You cannot swear a vow to an infant king, and neither can an infant king accept your services. A vow to a person always involves two persons, else you aren't a member of the Kingsguard or a retainer but a stalker or madman who is in need of immediate medical attention...Haha I don't know where you are going with this

Finally, we actually have no idea what those guys had planned (if they had time to plan). Them dying for Lyanna/the child doesn't mean they were still in the game for the crown. They could just have feared for the lives of the child without thinking the boy should wear a crown (or House Targaryen should ever be restored to the Iron Throne of Aegon the Conqueror).Again I don't know what you are talking about, or why it is relevant

 

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25 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

So I'm clearly having trouble getting my problem with this classic timeline across. So let me try this way.

The Battle of the Bells is the first verified event of 283AC.

After this battle a number of things happen, Jon Con is exiled and Chelstead is made hand...

also, Gerold Hightower is sent to find Rheagar...

There is a double wedding with Ned & Cat and Aryn and Lysa... (Rob conceived)

Rhaegar returns to Kings Landing and raises an army.

Chelstead is burned and Rhaella is impregnated with the baby who would be Stormborn and kill her.

This is all before the Battle of the Trident

ok pause... It's like a shell game but with babies...

For the Kingsguard to stay at the ToJ, because Lyanna is pregnant, she would have to know she was pregnant... Right?

Now, I don't think you can have Lyanna know she is pregnant with a child who would be born after Rob but still 9 months before Rhaella's...

Something has to give...

I guess I don't really follow. Why would it have to be after Robb but nine months before Dany? and why do you doubt? The more I'm reading the more I get confused. ;)

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9 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

 

Actually, GRRM has gone to great lengths to convey that the laws of succession, the Iron Throne included, were anything but clear . But that's for another thread. (There's where, some time ago, I explained why it's not actually as simple as the wiki would you believe.)

Actually this is a great point, and I agree completely...

however he has gone to very great lengths to show us "precedent" for such a situation... And great lengths to show what happens to kingmakers (see Cole)...

but glad you pointed it out

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25 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

So I'm clearly having trouble getting my problem with this classic timeline across. So let me try this way.

The Battle of the Bells is the first verified event of 283AC.

After this battle a number of things happen, Jon Con is exiled and Chelstead is made hand...

also, Gerold Hightower is sent to find Rheagar...

There is a double wedding with Ned & Cat and Aryn and Lysa... (Rob conceived)

Rhaegar returns to Kings Landing and raises an army.

Chelstead is burned and Rhaella is impregnated with the baby who would be Stormborn and kill her.

This is all before the Battle of the Trident

ok pause... It's like a shell game but with babies...

For the Kingsguard to stay at the ToJ, because Lyanna is pregnant, she would have to know she was pregnant... Right?

Now, I don't think you can have Lyanna know she is pregnant with a child who would be born after Rob but still 9 months before Rhaella's...

Something has to give...

 

18 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Actually, I am!

I agree that GRRM has said that Jon is about 8-9 months older than Dany...

I will agree that Rhaella died giving birth to a baby about 9 months after the sack of King's Landing... "Stormborn" (side note: ever ask yourself where the ship Darry escaped on came from? The storm wrecked the entire Targ fleet...)

But the whole point of this is that I do not believe Dany is Rhaella's baby... But I was trying to have an isolated discussion about just the ToJ part while I finish up a full thread on my R+L=J&D...

I welcome criticism, I just ask that you base it in the text or find the SSM you are quoting GRRM from... Thanks

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1040

" All of which is a long winded way of saying, no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts. "

And also this one:

http://web.archive.org/web/20051103091500/nrctc.edu/fhq/vol1iss3/00103009.htm

Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members? 

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."

16 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

I'll throw this here...

There's the fact that the events at the ToJ likely happened months after Jaime being a witness to Rhaella's rape.
Rhaella was pregnant when she left King's Landing.
But at this point in time, Ned hadn't even reached King's Landing yet... After the Trident, Ned rushed to King's Landing, found Jaime on the Iron Throne, then waited for wounded Robert to arrive in King's Landing, quarelled with him, left for Storm's End (where he lifted a siege that had lasted for a year) and then left for the Tower of Joy where he found Lyanna.
The problem is, if Jon is 8-9 months older than Dany... Then it's pretty difficult for him to have been born at the ToJ.
 

GRRM + numbers = nope nope nope.

Plus, people who are better with numbers made a count that he could have reached ToJwithin 6-8 weeks.

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12 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

You mean something like that: 

 

I think I covered this quote up thread... And why it doesn't mean Dany was born 9 months after the Sack...

13 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

A timeline of the books put together shows the dates here:

http://towerofthehand.com/essays/johnny/roberts_rebellion.html

This is a list of footnotes that don't use month names at all... The timeline isn't clear enough to give names to months even if they used he same calendar in Westeros... But I'm on a phone so maybe it isn't loading or something...

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4 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I think I covered this quote up thread... And why it doesn't mean Dany was born 9 months after the Sack...

This is a list of footnotes that don't use month names at all... The timeline isn't clear enough to give names to months even if they used he same calendar in Westeros... But I'm on a phone so maybe it isn't loading or something...

They dont use month names, they just use dates. Daenerys name day is listed in European style 1/6/298. I added the month name to make it easier because the Euro date set up makes me look at as January.

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