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Rant and Rave without Repercussions - Includes Season 6 Spoilers Part 2


WolfQueenArya

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The series jumped the shark for me when Sansa knelt for Tyrion. Though I lost interest in season 5. Normally I am one of those people who just can't stop watching or reading something (even if it is awful) so for me to lose interest in something, it has to be pretty bad.

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That was pretty bad. And she smiled before that, and joked after. They also had her start to strip without making him order her to do so. Then on the outside the episode, they talked about it all from Tyrion's perspective. He's a proud man, they said. He knows she doesn't want him. He would never, say, make her strip or grope her breast or anything. Poor Tyrion!

We can imagine what it was like for him as a boy. Just once it would be nice if they imagined what it was like for Sansa.

Here we go, outside the episode hall of fame:

Quote

"A lot of what it is for him, really, is he knows she doesn't want him. And what it comes down to is he knows she doesn't want it and that she's dreading this, and he doesn't want to force himself on someone who has those feelings. So despite all the pressure he's getting from his father and despite the fact that he's probably somewhat attracted to her, even though it makes him feel guilty that he's attracted to her, he's a proud man. And I think he knows that he would hate himself in the morning if he made her do this thing, and he's not going to do it."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TwFHkd_1Gk

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Oh, I nearly forgot about the sharp jumping question, well in terms of making me dislike the show, that would be S5 Episode 9 when "it" happened, but the first times I were annoyed by the show was Sansa kneeling to Tyrion and Cat telling Talisa about being the worst woman ever.

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18 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

That was pretty bad. And she smiled before that, and joked after. They also had her start to strip without making him order her to do so. Then on the outside the episode, they talked about it all from Tyrion's perspective. He's a proud man, they said. He knows she doesn't want him. He would never, say, make her strip or grope her breast or anything. Poor Tyrion!

We can imagine what it was like for him as a boy. Just once it would be nice if they imagined what it was like for Sansa.

Despite all that talk about strong women and agenda, they miss the subtler aspects of that totally. For Sansa, her excellent knowledge of court etiquette enables her to enact those small acts of defiance she knows she can get away with, like not kneeling. It's small first steps of her acting in a situation where she can mostly only react. And she learns and refines actively working within the situation she's in, with Tyrion and later with Littlefinger, Harry and the lords of the Vale. It's not always swords that make an active woman, and surely not some mini needle. :P

 

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35 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

That was pretty bad. And she smiled before that, and joked after. They also had her start to strip without making him order her to do so. Then on the outside the episode, they talked about it all from Tyrion's perspective. He's a proud man, they said. He knows she doesn't want him. He would never, say, make her strip or grope her breast or anything. Poor Tyrion!

We can imagine what it was like for him as a boy. Just once it would be nice if they imagined what it was like for Sansa.

Here we go, outside the episode hall of fame:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TwFHkd_1Gk

It's like they lack the insight to imagine themselves in Sansa's situation. They've been in Tyrion's situation (every man has, even genuinely handsome ones), but failed to realise that it is Sansa's perspective that actually matters.

10 minutes ago, Gabriele said:

Despite all that talk about strong women and agenda, they miss the subtler aspects of that totally. For Sansa, her excellent knowledge of court etiquette enables her to enact those small acts of defiance she knows she can get away with, like not kneeling. It's small first steps of her acting in a situation where she can mostly only react. And she learns and refines actively working within the situation she's in, with Tyrion and later with Littlefinger, Harry and the lords of the Vale. It's not always swords that make an active woman, and surely not some mini needle. :P

 

It's a subtly done chapter. Easily one of Martin's best written.

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Craster's Kreep and the attack on Meera were the straws that vroke the camels back for me.

I hated Talisa (though Oona Chaplin is stunning) and despised Theon's torture porn, but Craster's Rape Shack absolutely disgusted me.  They clearly just needed some mid-season filler with no lasting impact on the plot so they gave us a sword fight and a rape orgy.  This was when I knew they had no respect for the source material or the talent to go off book in a compelling way.  Season 4 ruined the show for me, culminating in the destruction of Tyrion's arc and the no cliché left unturned battle for Castle Black.  It was like watching Troy all over again!

 

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2 hours ago, Gabriele said:

Despite all that talk about strong women and agenda, they miss the subtler aspects of that totally. For Sansa, her excellent knowledge of court etiquette enables her to enact those small acts of defiance she knows she can get away with, like not kneeling. It's small first steps of her acting in a situation where she can mostly only react. And she learns and refines actively working within the situation she's in, with Tyrion and later with Littlefinger, Harry and the lords of the Vale. It's not always swords that make an active woman, and surely not some mini needle. :P

Yeah, and the kiss she makes up with Sandor, too. That's resistance, that's her making a choice. That happens very importantly in the narrative before all of this goes on with the other men, and continues throughout...

(One thing the show did include is that she starts to dream at the same beat as when she dreamed of Sandor in the books. What's interesting it's getting near the end, and then there was one. He's coming back.)

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14 hours ago, Tijgy said:

I am still pissed about Hardhome and the fact they just completely ignored Stannis' battle at Winterfell. I am not a Stannis' fan or I do not like him as a person (because he is still Stannis so that is sort of normal). 

But I can see why Stannis' fans are angry at D&D for what they did to his story because they really turned it into a piece of crap. They said it was all about ambition? while Stannis do not want to be king because he wants power, ... but because he feels it is his duty. When he goes to the North, he wants to save the realm. He is able to compromise. He is not fanatic. He is a very good general while in the show they actually completely ignore that aspect of the character and Ramsay with 20 men has completely no difficulty in harming him :bang: (and it is Ramsay who is able to do this). In the books the third leech is actually kind of important. He wants to protect his daughter who is the heir. HE is the one who is able to rally the Northern Lords (or they at least using him for that). 

And in the show all those cool things are completely ruined and some of them might be given to the Pimp who was Promised :bang:. And they did not give him the possibility to show his strategic skills. The only real images we have of the battle except for ThugBrienne killing Stannis is the one where we see Ramsay fighting :ack: 

I still do not understand what is the reason of Hardhome except for having a BIG BATTLE? Except to show a lot of wildlings and NW forgot fire is kind of usefull in fighting the wights. 

I'm somewhat of a Stannis fan. :D

Stannis knows that he needs to establish a dynasty if Westeros is not to fall back into several noble families fighting for the crown once he's dead, and thus his daughter is important. If Shireen gets sacrificed in the books, it will either be without Stannis' knowlege, or there will be a reason more important, more immediate than setting up a dynasty and bringing peace to the land that stands a chance to last for a few generations. If Stannis genuinely believes that the only way to stop the White Walkers is the death of his daughter, he may go that way, with a bleeding heart and only supported by his keen sense of duty. He may even become king - for the land, not himself - and probably not a bad one, but he will be aware of the price he paid every minute of his life. Nor is he the man to commit suicide the way he did in the show (I know, Brienne killed him, but he sorta looked for death). 

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They just don't understand Sansa, which for me is just plain nasty. It's not that hard, it's right there in the books. It's written from HER perspective. I understand Tyrion's situation, but it's obvious the spotlight in the wedding itself is placed on Sansa's feelings, because she's the thirteen year old virgin being forced to the altar. She's the one that dreamt about it, with her father and her siblings. She doesn't want any Lannister, she wants Highgarden and children named Bran, Rickon and Arya. 

It's even worst when you put into perspective for this season. They don't understand Sansa or her fans, so they think putting her as a "Leader" and as a "General" will be satisfying, but I never expected Sansa to be a martial leader. That's one of the reasons I like her. She doesn't need a sword. 

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10 minutes ago, Alayne's Shadow. said:

They just don't understand Sansa, which for me is just plain nasty. It's not that hard, it's right there in the books. It's written from HER perspective. I understand Tyrion's situation, but it's obvious the spotlight in the wedding itself is placed on Sansa's feelings, because she's the thirteen year old virgin being forced to the altar. She's the one that dreamt about it, with her father and her siblings. She doesn't want any Lannister, she wants Highgarden and children named Bran, Rickon and Arya. 

It's even worst when you put into perspective for this season. They don't understand Sansa or her fans, so they think putting her as a "Leader" and as a "General" will be satisfying, but I never expected Sansa to be a martial leader. That's one of the reasons I like her. She doesn't need a sword. 

If Littlefinger sets her up a figurehead and 'leader' in the books, he'll learn one day that Sansa has used her subtle skills behind his back and turned the table on him. :P

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Actually she settled on Highgarden as a way to escape the Lannisters. And a big hint there was that she made it more about the puppies than the man in question. Her dream was this:

Quote

She had dreamed of her wedding a thousand times, and always she had pictured how her betrothed would stand behind her tall and strong, sweep the cloak of his protection over her shoulders, and tenderly kiss her cheek as he leaned forward to fasten the clasp.

And that's the story that's going on throughout the books. The tall strong man, the cloak, the protection, the kiss. (And the show actually went there with all but the kiss...)

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48 minutes ago, voodooqueen126 said:

It's like they lack the insight to imagine themselves in Sansa's situation. They've been in Tyrion's situation (every man has, even genuinely handsome ones), but failed to realise that it is Sansa's perspective that actually matters.

Which is what they are doing, but there's no excuse. The author framed that part of the story from her perspective.

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1 hour ago, voodooqueen126 said:

It's like they lack the insight to imagine themselves in Sansa's situation. They've been in Tyrion's situation (every man has, even genuinely handsome ones), but failed to realise that it is Sansa's perspective that actually matters.

It's a subtly done chapter. Easily one of Martin's best written.

And if they are not skilled enough to write from a female POV, they should get some female writers on board. And listen to them. They're just lazy suckers. 

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5 minutes ago, Gabriele said:

And if they are not skilled enough to write from a female POV, they should get some female writers on board. And listen to them. They're just lazy suckers. 

Female writers, at least one

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More than just female writers, they need to encourage debate. Writers who they welcome to offer different perspectives, not just say yes. I was just listening to the Ron Moore podcast for the new episode of Outlander, and they fight back, if they really believe something is important, and he listens. He encourages this, because it makes for a better show. So he seeks out female writers and directors, but he also encourages this collaborative environment, where everyone feels free to offer their perspectives. He decides, but he wants to hear this. He's listening.

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I saw Iwan Rheon on an episode the British sitcom "Vicious" last night.  His character 'Ash' wanted to become an actor and he was told he would 'have to take his shirt off'.  I see on Wikipedia that he worked 'Vicious' and GOT during the same time frame so the 'take your shirt' off may have been a reference to GOT?  Ash was not inclined to remove his shirt however.  Pretty funny. 

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5 minutes ago, Alayne's Shadow. said:

You can't imagine what it was like for him, as a boy...

It speaks volumes to me that they can understand Ramsay more than Theon. 

Theon is the much more interesting character, his arc is really interesting as Theon goes from punk to victum to savior of fArya.  

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