Can Cersei be redeemed?

[sarah.jenice]

On 3/27/2016 at 7:50 PM, HelenaExMachina said:

She didn't rape Taena. There was some fucked up fantasising on Cersei's part, sure. But that doesn't make it rape. Nothing in Taena's conduct or speech suggests lack of consent.

I was going to stop to say this as well. Taena very much enjoyed their encounter. It's just that Cersei wasn't actually into it for sexual pleasure. If one partner not having an orgasm or not really being into consensual foreplay is rape, then there is a hell of a lot more rape going on than I realized. 

[Fire Eater]

3 hours ago, Light a wight tonight said:

How was it forced? Taena's relationship with Cersei wasn't one of friendship. She was either a spy or she was trying to advance her status in Court, or both. Only a convoluted, modernist interpretation could interpret this quid-pro-quo as forced.

Cersei acted upon Taena when she was still sleeping, and unable to give her consent when Cersei started. Taena only gave the "yes" when Cersei was in the middle of it, and Taena felt she had little choice. On top of that, Cersei was thinking about claiming her rights as queen as Robert did with her as king when he was drunk and sexually assaulted her. That is a big hint. Consent doesn't change with the times, and it isn't modernist. Sexual assault is the same in medieval times as it his in modern. 

[A Ghost of Someone]

Redemption is based upon one's point of view. If she confessed to all that she had done and admitted the kids were incest bastards, appologized and offered herself for public exection, then that is about as close as she could get. It is never going to happen.

[FrostyDornishman]

It would be a terrible storytelling choice and just doesn't make any sense.  Cersei has never stopped to consider the morality of her actions, and if she pulled a 180 on that all of a sudden it would be like reading a totally different character.

Ever stop to wonder, aside from the obvious reasons, why Cersei and Jaime have grown apart?  Their character arcs have totally different trajectories.  Give them another book's worth of development and we'll wonder how they ever managed to stand each other's company.

[INCBlackbird]

No because she doesn't want to be redeemed, she's a bad person. she's a psychopath who feels pity for herself while watching an innocent person being tortured under her command. She considers everyone a cardboard character who's only purpose is to serve her somehow.

[Light a wight tonight]

2 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

Cersei acted upon Taena when she was still sleeping, and unable to give her consent when Cersei started. Taena only gave the "yes" when Cersei was in the middle of it, and Taena felt she had little choice. On top of that, Cersei was thinking about claiming her rights as queen as Robert did with her as king when he was drunk and sexually assaulted her. That is a big hint. Consent doesn't change with the times, and it isn't modernist. Sexual assault is the same in medieval times as it his in modern. 

 Legally it's very different, and what went on between Taena and Cersie was far from forced. Taena was using her body for personal gain, a form of prostitution. 

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

On 3/26/2016 at 5:47 PM, HouseFossoway said:

So here are some of Cersei's most evil actions. I'm not talking about things that are morally grey, or things that while bad, are so minor that they don't really count. So for example, having Robert killed won't count, because she needed to protect her kids. Insulting Sansa doesn't count, because plenty of characters insult Sansa, including Arya and Sandor, and we wouldn't necessarily call those characters evil. I'm talking about the things that Cersei does out of pure cruelty.

1. Killing Melara Hetherspoon - She had no reason to do this except out of jealousy. The circumstances here are unclear. We know Cercei was jealous of Melara over Jaime, but we don't know she killed her on purpose. My interpretation is that they got into a fight over him near a well and Melara slipped/was pushed but not with the direct intent of killing her. If Cercei had planned this out in cold blood, it doesn't make sense that she views Melara's death as fulfillment of a prophecy. There had to be some element of chance for it to make Cercei so worried about the other parts of the prophecy.

2. Giving Falyse Stokeworth to Qyburn - The only reason Cersei does this is because she doesn't have the patience to deal with Falyse, who was hysterical after her husband was killed.

3. Giving Senelle to Qyburn - This was done out of anger, and was an extremely over the top reaction. You can't even argue that Senelle had to be made an example of, because nobody knows what happened to her. Cersei did this out of spite.

4. Trying to frame Margaery and her cousins for adultery, hoping that they would be executed, and torturing the Blue Bard in the process - Even if Cersei was right about Margaery, Mace and Olenna's plans, what Cersei did was far worse.

5. Having the second High Septon (Tyrion's) smothered - Same as 4.

6. Raping Taena - Exemplified how Cersei just wants to exert power over others. LOL Nope. Taena was 100% into it. We can speculate on her motives but there is no angle from which that was rape.

So given this list, and the fact that she has thus far felt absolutely no remorse, is it possible that Cersei can find redemption the way Jaime will?

 

 

On 3/26/2016 at 5:48 PM, HouseFossoway said:

Oh and I forgot:

7. Killing all of Robert's bastards and enslaving/killing his known mistresses

 

4, 5, and 7 were all pretty bad but I wouldn't call them outright evil since they are political self-defense. Protecting her children and their claim from Stanis's accusations and later from Tyrell scheming (which of course is real, no matter how many times Kevan and Jaime tell Cercei that she's just paranoid.) The killing of the septon was a move to protect herself from Tyrion's influence. Which TBH seems pretty fair since he effectively or outright kidnapped two of her children and did a fantastic job looking like he killed the third. Not to mention killed their dad. We all know what was in Tyrion's head and what his reasons were, but Cercei doesn't. Tyrion's clever but hardly a trust-builder.

 

Everything Cercei does with Qyburn's influence, though, is straight up evil. Falyse, Senelle, the Blue Bard. Yeah. That's when she goes full-blown Evil Queen.

 

15 hours ago, Light a wight tonight said:

Cersei being redeemed would be a near-criminal waste of a great villain. Why anyone would think it was desirable is beyond my comprehension.

GRRM spent a lot of time and effort crafting Evil Cercei, I'm excited to see what she does next. Fingers crossed for "burns King's Landing to the ground with wildfire."

2 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

Cersei acted upon Taena when she was still sleeping, and unable to give her consent when Cersei started. Taena only gave the "yes" when Cersei was in the middle of it, and Taena felt she had little choice. On top of that, Cersei was thinking about claiming her rights as queen as Robert did with her as king when he was drunk and sexually assaulted her. That is a big hint. Consent doesn't change with the times, and it isn't modernist. Sexual assault is the same in medieval times as it his in modern. 

Let it go, dude. Cercei has done plenty of bad stuff, but Taena was consenting. In fact she spent a long time building up to getting Cercei to boink her.

[Fire Eater]

33 minutes ago, Light a wight tonight said:

 Legally it's very different, and what went on between Taena and Cersie was far from forced. Taena was using her body for personal gain, a form of prostitution. 

Except it didn't start that way as the decision was made under coercion as Cersei wasn't looking for her consent an she clearly wanted to emulate Robert when he assaulted Cersei. As for the fact that she is a former prostitute, that same mode of thinking is why sex workers have trouble pressing charges against people who sexually assaulted them. 

34 minutes ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

 

Let it go, dude. Cercei has done plenty of bad stuff, but Taena was consenting. In fact she spent a long time building up to getting Cercei to boink her.

Except the consent was coerced, which doesn't count as actual consent. Cersei acted when Taena was asleep, and she was trying emulate Robert when he forced himself on her. Sexual assault is a serious subject. 

[Ser Hyle]

44 minutes ago, Fire Eater said:

Except it didn't start that way as the decision was made under coercion as Cersei wasn't looking for her consent an she clearly wanted to emulate Robert when he assaulted Cersei. As for the fact that she is a former prostitute, that same mode of thinking is why sex workers have trouble pressing charges against people who sexually assaulted them. 

Except the consent was coerced, which doesn't count as actual consent. Cersei acted when Taena was asleep, and she was trying emulate Robert when he forced himself on her. Sexual assault is a serious subject. 

Just stop. If she's going along with the Queen raping her by right, she doesn't need to tell the Queen she can 'do as you will with me.' She just needs to simply grit and bear it, let it happen. I think it's pretty clear in the text that Taena's fully onboard with what's going down.

And the part you mentioned in an earlier about starting without consent - what kind of BS is that? Under your definition I'm both a rapist and rape survivor, because I've initiated sexual encounters, and had sexual encounters initiated with me while someone was in bed with me sleeping and vice versa.

Quote

"She twisted Taena's other nipple too, pulling until the other woman gasped. "I am the queen. I mean to claim my rights." 

"Do what you will." Taena's hair was as black as Robert's, even down between her legs, and when Cersei touched her there she found her hair all sopping wet, where Robert's had been coarse and dry. "Please," the Myrish woman said, "go on, my queen. Do as you will with me. I'm yours."

 

 

[Clegane'sPup]

My opinion is that Cersei will continue down her path of self destruction. That is just the way I read it. I don't see anything making Cersei stop her behavior and take a inventory of her self-centered, self defeating ways. She reminds me of women appearing on the "Housewives" shows.

She makes the books interesting. She is the stereotypical B-atch.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

2 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

Except it didn't start that way as the decision was made under coercion as Cersei wasn't looking for her consent an she clearly wanted to emulate Robert when he assaulted Cersei. As for the fact that she is a former prostitute, that same mode of thinking is why sex workers have trouble pressing charges against people who sexually assaulted them. 

Except the consent was coerced, which doesn't count as actual consent. Cersei acted when Taena was asleep, and she was trying emulate Robert when he forced himself on her. Sexual assault is a serious subject. 

Taena was a former prostitute? What?

I applaud your concern for sex workers and domestic assault, and I agree that the concept of initiating sex with a sleeping person is tricky. Unconscious people can't consent. However in the specific situation of Taena (not a sex worker) and Cercei there was no coercion. Taena has been hardcore seducing Cercei for weeks at this point, and when she wakes up to find Cercei initiating she's basically like "omg finally."

Difference in power/social status doesn't automatically equate to coercion. If anyone is coercing Taena, and I kind of doubt it, it's the Tyrells or possibly her husband coercing her to get in with Cercei by any means necessary. But, like I said, I kind of doubt that. I think Taena is totally on her own initiative here.

[Clegane'sPup]

On 3/26/2016 at 5:47 PM, HouseFossoway said:

So here are some of Cersei's most evil actions. I'm not talking about things that are morally grey, or things that while bad, are so minor that they don't really count. So for example, having Robert killed won't count, because she needed to protect her kids. Insulting Sansa doesn't count, because plenty of characters insult Sansa, including Arya and Sandor, and we wouldn't necessarily call those characters evil. I'm talking about the things that Cersei does out of pure cruelty.

1. Killing Melara Hetherspoon - She had no reason to do this except out of jealousy.

2. Giving Falyse Stokeworth to Qyburn - The only reason Cersei does this is because she doesn't have the patience to deal with Falyse, who was hysterical after her husband was killed.

3. Giving Senelle to Qyburn - This was done out of anger, and was an extremely over the top reaction. You can't even argue that Senelle had to be made an example of, because nobody knows what happened to her. Cersei did this out of spite.

4. Trying to frame Margaery and her cousins for adultery, hoping that they would be executed, and torturing the Blue Bard in the process - Even if Cersei was right about Margaery, Mace and Olenna's plans, what Cersei did was far worse.

5. Having the second High Septon (Tyrion's) smothered - Same as 4.

6. Raping Taena - Exemplified how Cersei just wants to exert power over others.

So given this list, and the fact that she has thus far felt absolutely no remorse, is it possible that Cersei can find redemption the way Jaime will?

 

There is a bit of Gemma Teller in Cersei's written character. I kinda think that Cersei will eventually get her desserts.

[Tianzi]

1. Is that even proven? I mean, I know it's been strongly hinted, but still hinted.

6.From reading this scene we can tell that Teana might have been completely willing.

Of course, if she wasn't, she was smart enough not to try to protest.

 

But if we call Cersei a rapist for iniciating sex with someone who was not really in power to refuse...

Then so is Robert. And I'm not talking about his repeated marital rapes on Cersei, but about his "conquests" - which one of those women could say "no" to the king?

Also, every man using prostitutes is one. Yes, including Tyrion. The books go to great lenghts to put emphasis on how he treats whores like human beings (like Shae and Alayaya), but what about that girl at Illyrio's?

And let's not even start on the topic of arranged marriages and obligatory intercourses steming from them.

 

So I would say that a matter of consent is rarely completely clear by the very nature of a society like Westeros' and for all we know Taena might have been completely on board. I wouldn't count it among Cersei's great evil acts.

 

But as for the titular question, I think no. And it's not even a matter of her morality, but her sanity and worldview. I can imagine her as a humiliated, defeated lioness, even a person for whom we can fell sorry, but I can't imagine her caring about anyone other than herself, her children and maybe Jaime.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

10 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

1. Is that even proven? I mean, I know it's been strongly hinted, but still hinted.

6.From reading this scene we can tell that Teana might have been completely willing.

Of course, if she wasn't, she was smart enough not to try to protest.

 

But if we call Cersei a rapist for iniciating sex with someone who was not really in power to refuse...

Then so is Robert. And I'm not talking about his repeated marital rapes on Cersei, but about his "conquests" - which one of those women could say "no" to the king?

Also, every man using prostitutes is one. Yes, including Tyrion. The books go to great lenghts to put emphasis on how he treats whores like human beings (like Shae and Alayaya), but what about that girl at Illyrio's?

And let's not even start on the topic of arranged marriages and obligatory intercourses steming from them.

 

So I would say that a matter of consent is rarely completely clear by the very nature of a society like Westeros' and for all we know Taena might have been completely on board. I wouldn't count it among Cersei's great evil acts.

 

But as for the titular question, I think no. And it's not even a matter of her morality, but her sanity and worldview. I can imagine her as a humiliated, defeated lioness, even a person for whom we can fell sorry, but I can't imagine her caring about anyone other than herself, her children and maybe Jaime.

Short of having Taena's POV, we have every possible indication of her enthusiastic consent.

[GyantSpyder]

Jaime hasn't been redeemed in the public eye, just privately and among a couple of friends, family and colleagues. And with the reader, of course. Jaime is still publicly hated, unjustly, for a misunderstanding of the emotions and consequences of his actions.

That is, Jaime's optics are bad. He starts doing better things and being a better person, but he still looks like a Kingslayer

It seems unlikely Cersei will be redeemed privately, or among her close friends or family. But she may still be redeemed in the public eye. Because the public is generally not in the know about its rulers or why they do what they do. Right now the public hates her and (justly) blames her for the death of King Robert. But she has tied her fortunes, for better or worse, to the Faith of the Seven in a lot of ways, and so we might see her "redeemed" in the way that public figures tend to be redeemed when they find religion.

One historical figure who comes up a lot in the books, and whom we know a lot about, but doesn't really have a relevance to the main characters yet is Baelor the Blessed. We know that a lot of the history we hear about is skewed and inaccurate. It's hinted a few times that Baelor the Blessed was not really a great guy, but the public loved him. I wonder if, deep down, Baelor the Blessed was actually a pretty bad guy, and I wonder if Cersei might turn out to be similar. Let's look at Cersei's recent actions, as they might be seen from the perspective of the public:

- She has appeared to cut her ties with her two sinful brothers: the Imp and the Kingslayer.

- She has sent her daughter as a peace offering to marry a Dornish prince and settle a blood feud between their families

- She has restored the Faith Militant.

- She has cut her hair and done a naked walk of penance

- She used to be married to somebody who liked sex a lot, but now she is no longer married

These are all pretty similar to things Baelor the Blessed did during the early years of his reign - undoing the independence of his house from the Faith, having a problem with Dorne that might look to outsiders as in better shape than it is.

Now _if_ Cersei wins her trial by combat, but Margaery loses, and if Cersei puts up some kayfabe with the High Septon as a born-again religious zealot (entirely faked, of course), I can see the smallfolk embracing her as a religious figure, maybe even keeping her around if there's a regime change as a spiritual leader of sorts. Certainly she could be seen in her current solitude, with Jaime gone, as chaste, even though that's not really who she is at all.

The Dornish angle on Baelor is pretty interesting to look into the ways the stories about his life might be wrong - Baelor was seen as a peacemaker with Dorne, but it seems likely from what happened that he had no choice and they were going to kill him like they did his brother. There's the whole story of how people believe he walked among vipers without being harmed, but really he was bitten by tons of snakes and had to be taken from the Martells to the Dondarrions and then the Baratheons (three families trying to kill Lannisters and killed by Lannisters during Cersei's reign). There's the story of how he walked a walk of shame all the way to Dorne, and when offered a boat ride home, he refused it, and instead walked all the way back. Maybe it was because he was very pious, or maybe he was paranoid (or maybe they were actually going to kill him on that boat).

Baelor the Blessed did a bunch of things that seem kind of suspicious - and maybe not so much the result of devotion of religion as paranoia or actual fear for his life or power:

- He locked up his sisters for life.

- He humiliated lords he did not like by making them wash the feet of lepers.

- He tried to force lords to put chastity belts on their daughters.

- When he had the chance, he replaced the High Septon with illiterates he could control whom he then might have poisoned.

- He tried to get rid of all the ravens in King's Landing and replace them with doves (To disrupt the maesters?)

- He kicked all the prostitutes out of the city (I could totally see Cersei doing this to try to undermine Littlefinger,or taking credit for the High Sparrow doing it)

- He built a new great sept for himself on his own hill (which is where Cersei stands as she powerlessly presides over the death of Ned Stark - compare Cersei when she burns the Tower of the Hand telling Tyrion she will build a new tower, twice as tall).

- Supposedly he fasted himself to death, but he was probably poisoned by his own family, and the maesters and High Septon refused to save him.

So, I wouldn't be surprised if by the end of the story Cersei is seen by the smallfolk as a once-abused and wronged Holy Mother Virgin of sorts, maybe a Silent Sister, who was redeemed by the Light of the Seven and became the most blessed woman in Westeros, when all the while she is basically in the equivalent of her suicide room during the invasion of King's Landing, trapped in a power structure she despises and, perhaps like the "real" Baelor the Blessed, striking our erratically at her enemies while desperately trying to survive with no friends or allies.