Redemption for the bad boys

[Damsel in Distress]

16 hours ago, Franklin VI said:

1. Jorah Mormont - caught poachers on his land and sold them to slavery
2. Tyrion Lannister - murdered his father in cold blood (the man was takin' a crap for chrissakes!)
3. Victarion - murdering brute killed his wife and his maester

IMHO, Jorah already redeemed himself when he helped Daenerys liberate a half a million slaves.  I think Tyrion and Victarion can redeem themselves and erase their past sins by serving Daenerys and helping her free the slaves and taking back the iron throne.  Dany is the closest thing to God that ASOIAF has.   Even little Arya could be redeemed if she serves Dany loyally and help her retake the throne of Westeros. 

Speaking of boys, of Selmy's cadets, when do you think they will be ready to give capable service to Daenerys?   Can the former pit fighters redeem themselves by pledging and honoring service to Dany? 

 

Only moral redemption.  The boys can redeem themselves morally of their past acts by serving Dany faithfully.  They can sleep knowing their sins are washed away.  The legal consequences of what Jorah and Tyrion did could be swept aside but I don't think they will.   Jorah and Tyrion end up at the wall.  Their moral sins are washed away through serving Dany.  Their crimes against society are washed away later when they are sent to the wall.  So they can come out clean, morally and legally, in the end. 

 

[Philokles]

Maybe Dany can redeem for the destruction she left in her wake by helping Tyrion and the Starks reclaim their rightful lordships...

[Isobel Harper]

3 hours ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Right. Victarion, for one, has taken up the good cause before even meeting the Breaker of chains. His methods for doing so are also quite, erm, interesting, proving that one can combine redemption with profit, provided that one is gifted in imagination (and yet, despite all that, people still call Victarion an idiot...).

One can mix a good act with profit, case in point, Davos.

I disagree that Victarion is on a redemption arc, and forgot the OP mentioned him.

2 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

Except, the OP explicitly referred to, in Arya's case, of "helping" Dany take the IT. Apparently, it does not matter what Dany's actual policies in Westeros might be.

Unfortunately, there seems to be a rather suspect inferential process going on here. It goes something like:
1. Dany is good because she freed slaves.
2. Since it's been established that Dany is good, it follows everything she does is good or will be good.

#2 is faulty logic.  I'm not sure if that's what the OP meant.  Perhaps?  The OP do seem biased towards Danaerys - which I disagree with, every character is "grey." They do mention "helping her free slaves" as redemptive, which I agree with.

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Jorah is well on his way to redemption.   There is no crime in obsessing over a curvy rear end when that rear end is so fiercely changing entire cultures for the better that Jorah was raised with.   His selling the poachers to the slavers was quite a blight on his morality.   I am surprised he wasn't given a more harsh sentence by Ned.   Though exile is not an unreasonable sentence for a Lord.   Jorah is the only son of Jeor and Jeor took the black.  When I consider the ramifications for the women to become heirs of Bear Island it becomes a fascinating move by Ned.   Jorah may be obsessed with Dany as a woman, but I don't think that precludes his commitment to her cause. 

<snip>

Jorah was sentenced to death.  Ned was on his way to Bear Island to serve justice when Jorah and his wife snuck away to Essos.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

1 hour ago, Isobel Harper said:

One can mix a good act with profit, case in point, Davos.

I disagree that Victarion is on a redemption arc, and forgot the OP mentioned him.

#2 is faulty logic.  I'm not sure if that's what the OP meant.  Perhaps?  The OP do seem biased towards Danaerys - which I disagree with, every character is "grey." They do mention "helping her free slaves" as redemptive, which I agree with.

Jorah was sentenced to death.  Ned was on his way to Bear Island to serve justice when Jorah and his wife snuck away to Essos.

Davos gets his reward for loyal service, which he gives not as part of redemption but out of gratitude to his benefactor (as he sees it). He paid for his crimes with his fingers. It is different.

Other than that, I disagree with this view of redemption. In my opinion, redemption is about realizing the wrongness of one's ways and consciously taking steps into rectifying his/her past actions or even, simply, change way of life. Jaime is on redemption arc even if he's still serving the Lannister cause because he decided to start taking responsibility of his actions and we see that, for example, in little things like the way he tries to be there for Tommen. On the contrary, Jorah Mormont is not in any redemption arc: he is still pretty much a slaver all the while he serves Dany's cause and we see that cclearly in the way he enslaves Tyrion (just because it suits him and expects/hopes to be rewarded for it), not to mention what he's doing there in that brothel (I don't see why he should be cut more slack than Tyrion for the exact same offence). There's not any indication that his own experience as a slave changed his mentality (other than the verification that, indeed, it sucks to be at the receiving end). Until we see Jorah behaving in a sensitive, non callous way to anyone but Dany (and, basically, his precious self) I don't think we can say he's on redemption because it so happens that he serves Daenerys; he'd serve her all the same if she was enslaving instead of liberating (and perhaps even more enthusiastically). He cares nothing about serving a righteous cause.

[Isobel Harper]

16 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Davos gets his reward for loyal service, which he gives not as part of redemption but out of gratitude to his benefactor (as he sees it). He paid for his crimes with his fingers. It is different.

Davos gave the onions and fish to Storm's End with an idea of a reward at the end - there's a SSM which I can't find saying such - but this doesn't necessarily make Davos' deed any less altruistic or noble.

19 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Other than that, I disagree with this view of redemption. In my opinion, redemption is about realizing the wrongness of one's ways and consciously taking steps into rectifying his/her past actions or even, simply, change way of life.

Yes, I agree.

21 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Until we see Jorah behaving in a sensitive, non callous way to anyone but Dany (and, basically, his precious self) I don't think we can say he's on redemption because it so happens that he serves Daenerys; he'd serve her all the same if she was enslaving instead of liberating (and perhaps even more enthusiastically). He cares nothing about serving a righteous cause.

I see where you're coming from.  I was under the impression that he embraced anti-slavery at least some while serving Daenerys.  I'll think on that.

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

14 hours ago, Wm Portnoy said:

Excellent points.  Jorah is well on his way to erasing sins from his former life.  He saved Dany's life and that counts for a lot in terms of good deeds.  Consider the irony too:  Jorah sold slaves and ends up on the other end of the chain for a time. 

Tyrion is redeemable if he supports Dany and becomes her loyal adviser.  Vicky is a grey area.  I suppose if he supplied the 1000 ships to take Dany's armies to King's Landing and fights on her side that would make up for all the sins he committed in his life.  Same goes for Arya. 

One of Barristan's boys is really talented with the sword.  As good as Jaime, per Barristan's opinion.  I expect that one is ready to serve duties as the Khaleesi's loyal bodyguard. 

Tumco Lho is the future badass swordsman talked about by Selmy. Being as good as Jaime makes him a good bodyguard for Dany as Barry and Jorah are long in the tooth age wise.

Jorah sold less than a dozen and assisted Dany give freedom to many, many times that number. Yeah, his past crimes are already paid for. Plus his loyalty to Dany make him a hero. He plays an effective supporting role for the hero against those who practice and promote slavery. I say, good for Jorah. He found someone in Dany worthy to support. Tyrion and Victarion can and should do the same.

[Lady bonehead]

Jorah certainly thinks he will be redeemed by supporting Dany.  I like the guy so I kinda hope he dies before being disillusioned.

[The Arthur Smith]

Just send Littlefinger, Walder Frey, Roose, Ramsay, or even the Others to kiss Dany's ass for salvation and everything will be fine...

[Light a wight tonight]

11 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Jorah is well on his way to redemption.   There is no crime in obsessing over a curvy rear end when that rear end is so fiercely changing entire cultures for the better that Jorah was raised with.   His selling the poachers to the slavers was quite a blight on his morality.   I am surprised he wasn't given a more harsh sentence by Ned.   Though exile is not an unreasonable sentence for a Lord.   Jorah is the only son of Jeor and Jeor took the black.  When I consider the ramifications for the women to become heirs of Bear Island it becomes a fascinating move by Ned.   Jorah may be obsessed with Dany as a woman, but I don't think that precludes his commitment to her cause. 

Tyrion is definitely not without redemptive qualities.  His kindnesses to Penny and Jorah were simply morally right despite his revulsion for Penny and captivity by Jorah.   Tyrion is one of the few characters who is capable of talking the talk and walking the walk.   Good or bad, he has follow through.  Tyrion's weakness is acceptance.  Tyrion's strength is acceptance.   He's way too smart to be in so many of the situations he found himself in.   Still he made all the wrong moves and found himself tried, convicted and sentenced.   Because of his mouth and willingness to believe the unbelievable, that a beautiful whore would love him.   I think it's sad the way that whole thing played out.    Tyrion will be critical to whichever cause he lends his mind and skill to.   He's got great heart.   Gotta remember that the good does not wash out the bad nor the inverse with Tyrion.   He knows what he is.   He may be the most self aware character in the entire story.  

I'm not sure Vic is in need of redemption--yet.   His character is true to the Iron Islands character, rape, reave and pillage.   He is not beyond his bounds in this.   His desire to usurp his brother is not without good personal and political cause.   Vic is simply too stupid to know any better.    I don't think he's trying to be good or bad at all.   Why should he have any loyalty to a brother who was so bad to him?  

Curious Theon and Jamie and Arya weren't on the list.   

Jorah was never sentenced by Ned because he fled before Ned arrived to sentence him. He would have been beheaded if he'd stayed. That is the penalty for slaving in Westeros, and Ned was a stickler for the law.

[Edward Riley]

Sorry, but Victarion doesn't feel he's done anything wrong in his life. He's always done the right thing, following his older brother, regardless of how much he hates Euron Crow's Eye. The only thing that might be a "bad thing" in his eyes is stealing Dany for himself to spite Euron, but he hasn't done that yet.

You may call what he's done "evil" but I'm dead sure the character wouldn't think he was at all. He's faithful to the Drowned God, loyal and steadfast. His "reaving" is simply what he and the Ironborn do. How would he even want to "redeem" himself?

His wife was unfaithful to him, with his own brother no less. He gave her to the Drowned God. He "murdered" his Maester but the ironborn seem to hate Maesters and see them as a crutch. He wouldn't see these acts as evil at all.

 

[The Commentator]

On 3/27/2016 at 11:05 AM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Dany is written as the primary character in ASOIAF and the one fighting the good fight.  Anyone who joins her and gives her loyal service can redeem themselves, similar to the night watch forgiving the prior crimes of its members.  Victarion is really interesting because he is the corpse on the prow of the ship in Dany's prophecy.  This idea falls in line with that if Victarion decides to serve Dany instead of himself.  Victarion sees the Light and helps Dany to ascend the Iron throne.  He dies happy knowing he helped a good cause.

Could be.  That could explain the sad smile.  Vic is dying and chooses to spend his remaining time to help Dany end the slave trade.  He's a bad man but if there is a road to redemption for him, it will be through Daenerys.  Let's say Vic follows the pattern of Jorah and makes a voluntary choice to serve Daenerys.  That would make for an interesting character change for Vic.  Were I in Essos, I too would choose to serve Dany.  Like George said, he would suit up to fight the Nazis.  There is no fight more worthy than helping to end slavery and Dany leads that fight.  Even someone as bad as Vic can find redemption in her service. 

[The Commentator]

On 3/26/2016 at 7:55 PM, Franklin VI said:

Speaking of boys, of Selmy's cadets, when do you think they will be ready to give capable service to Daenerys?   Can the former pit fighters redeem themselves by pledging and honoring service to Dany? 

 

 IIRC, the boys are learning fast.  If they survive the battle of Meereen they will have been experienced and should be ready for good service.   I like the Red Lamb, tbh. 

[Wolf's Bane]

GRRM likes his characters grey.  Don't count on bad boys turning into choir boys.  That said, it doesn't mean a bad boy can't be a hero and do something to benefit many people.  For example, Victarion provides the ships and carries Dany's armies across the Narrow Sea.  Dany recovers her kingdom and the IT.  Victarion would be remembered for his service and given recognition as a hero.  Tyrion supports Dany and helps end the business of slavery.  The little guy becomes a hero, Tyrion the Brave and recognized for heroism.  The children of slaves will build statues of Tyrion and his name will go down in their history as one of the saviors who fought for their freedom. 

Bronn is a good example of this.  He fought in the Blackwater and helped defend the city against Stannis.  Yet he is still the same sellsword who would sell his grandma for a fistful of golden dragons.   He's the same person inside but the situation he was in allowed him to become a hero.

[Roswell]

I would actually like Tyrion and Victarion if they help Dany keep the slaves free.  I don't have a problem with their redemption that way. 

Barry's kids are still raw.  Skill at arms is not of itself enough for the Queen's security team.  I would prefer they take the time to win their spurs first before joining Dany's future Queensguard. 

[Shierak Qiya]

On 3/27/2016 at 1:24 AM, Isobel Harper said:

Suffering also seems to be essential in many of the "villains" redemption.  Theon's "Reek" arc after betraying the Starks, Jaime's losing his hand, and Jorah being sold into slavery, the Hound through his "dying" near Saltpans. 

Suffering is the punishment part.  Redemption is serving someone like Daenerys and helping her achieve her objectives.

[Shierak Qiya]

On 3/27/2016 at 11:05 AM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Dany is written as the primary character in ASOIAF and the one fighting the good fight.  Anyone who joins her and gives her loyal service can redeem themselves, similar to the night watch forgiving the prior crimes of its members.  Victarion is really interesting because he is the corpse on the prow of the ship in Dany's prophecy.  This idea falls in line with that if Victarion decides to serve Dany instead of himself.  Victarion sees the Light and helps Dany to ascend the Iron throne.  He dies happy knowing he helped a good cause.

That's one of the best interpretations of that part of the vision that I have read.  Thanks. 

[The Lord of the Crossing]

Add Lothar and Hosteen to the list.  I'll support her if she lets me succeed Walder. 

[JonisHenryTudor]

On 3/27/2016 at 9:02 AM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Martin meant there was more to the story than just her story.  That comment does not mean she is not the main character.  She is the main character and there are also other important characters within the story. 

She is An important character, but to say see is the main character overlooks a lot. The title of the series alone (for many) suggests the story is about Jon. A Song (story-baby) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar). 

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but Dany's story arc initially was supposed to be reduced? It was only after a friend told him to add dragons that he finally increased her importance?

 

Having said that, this story has revolved around the Starks since day 1 when Martin wrote  a short story about a noble family and their wolves. Clearly it exploded since that moment. 

[Drogonthedread]

11 minutes ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

She is An important character, but to say see is the main character overlooks a lot. The title of the series alone (for many) suggests the story is about Jon. A Song (story-baby) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar). 

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but Dany's story arc initially was supposed to be reduced? It was only after a friend told him to add dragons that he finally increased her importance?

 

Having said that, this story has revolved around the Starks since day 1 when Martin wrote  a short story about a noble family and their wolves. Clearly it exploded since that moment. 

Please 

Martin idea was to give the targ and dany power of fire wielding..kind of like avatar airbender ...and the friend suggested to use dragons...point is dany is always there what sort of power she wields is changed ..

[The Dragons Hand]

Jorah needs to learn to manage his words more than his deeds one would think.

Tywin feckin' deserved it. At least it was quick and he didn't know the mockery they'd make of his corpse.

Victarion is a just getting worse.

Selmy's new knights are some of my favorite minor minor characters.

Larraq the Lash, because who needs to learn classical weaponry when you can just pick such people apart with unusual; fighting styles?

Tumco Lho, the best natural swordsman Barristan has seen since Jaime Fookin' Lannister

The Red Lamb has much in the way of rough-spun wisdom and badass one-liners. "I CAME FOR BLOOD, NOT FOR GOLD!!"