Werthead

Atlas of Ice and Fire

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The older thread on this topic got swallowed up in the forum update, so here's an updated version.

I've been thinking for a while that an Atlas of ASoIaF, covering everything from demographics to religion to languages to military campaigns and geographical landforms, would be really cool, such as what Karen Wynn Fonstad did for the works of Anne McCaffrey, Stephen Donaldson and J.R.R. Tolkien before she unfortunately passed away in 2005. We're highly unlikely to get it, given GRRM's stance on not wanting to pin down such details beyond what we've already seen in the Lands of Ice and Fire maps and the World of Ice and Fire book. So putting together a speculative website seems like a reasonable alternative, which is what I did a few weeks ago.

So far I've covered the following topics:

Future topics include a historical series of maps and (once I've found a good way of doing it) maps of the cities and castles we haven't seen yet, such as Winterfell, Harrenhal, Volantis, Meereen etc.

Edited by Werthead

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35 minutes ago, Werthead said:

The older thread on this topic got swallowed up in the forum update, so here's an updated version.

I've been thinking for a while that an Atlas of ASoIaF, covering everything from demographics to religion to languages to military campaigns and geographical landforms, would be really cool, such as what Karen Wynn Fonstad did for the works of Anne McCaffrey, Stephen Donaldson and J.R.R. Tolkien before she unfortunately passed away in 2005. We're highly unlikely to get it, given GRRM's stance on not wanting to pin down such details beyond what we've already seen in the Lands of Ice and Fire maps and the World of Ice and Fire book. So putting together a speculative website seems like a reasonable alternative, which is what I did a few weeks ago.

So far I've covered the following topics:

Future topics include a historical series of maps and (once I've found a good way of doing it) maps of the cities and castles we haven't seen yet, such as Winterfell, Harrenhal, Volantis, Meereen etc.

Fascinating, thanks.

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Thank you!  This is excellent!  I have duly informed my boss as to why I won't be getting any work done today!  If he can figure his way onto here, you may get a nasty message! LOL!

But really, thanks!  I love maps and all that goes with it!  :cheers:

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Wert,

I have a few questions to your methodology:

1. Why did you decide to put 'neutral zones' between the various territories controlled by the Free Cities? Is there any textual evidence suggesting that there is such 'no man's land' between them aside from the cases in which we know this to be the case (i.e. the section of the Rhoyne controlled by the river pirates - although one could then just designate that 'river pirate territory' - or the Disputed Lands).

My gut feeling would be that the Free City states all have direct borders to each other simply because we don't learn anything about any land in between. If such land would exist, then people would live there, and this would inevitably mean that there were other political entities aside from the Free Cities in the lands controlled by those cities - however insignificant they might be. But we never anything about those, which means that no such entities exist (most likely, at least). Whether each Free City actually has more than nominal control over the lands in the vicinity of its sphere of influence is a matter of discussion, of course. I'd suggest that there is pretty good chance that this is the case with Braavos, for instance, due to the fact that the need of wood for the ships would determine that they control as much forested land as possible as thoroughly as they can.

In addition, the real world shows us that nations seldom give up claims to lands and regions they once ruled unless they are forced. This would suggest that there wouldn't be any land on the entire map of the world which was not - at least nominally - under the control of some political entity. This would be especially easy of depopulated areas like, say, the Red Waste and surrounding lands.

2. I think we should differentiate between nation-/state-like political entities and regions that simply have geographical names. For instance, there is no reason to believe that the Shadowlands actually are a political entity of any kind. For all we know the name simply refers to all the lands in the vicinity of the Shadow Mountains. Cultural differences are not necessarily an indication for political unity. I'd not only include the Shadowlands in that category but also other distant regions we don't know much about - Mossovy, the Thousand Islands, etc.

3. George's usual tendency to imagine things big makes it very unlikely in my eyes the Free Cities aren't a lot bigger. KL has about a million inhabitants, if I'm correct, so Volantis could easily have 5-10, or even more (or rather may have had 10 million prior to the Century of Blood).

As far as we know the Free Cities (and not so much Westeros) are in charge of the eastern trade. And considering that this is a very profitable business (which is done by Westeros mostly via the Free Cities not by circumventing them) all of the Free Cities but Lorath (and, perhaps, Norvos and Qohor) should be much bigger than the biggest Westerosi cities.

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Nice work Wert.

I take issue with the Population of Westeros section, though. There are a number of errors there.

1.- Sizes of White Harbor and Gulltown

It has been repeatedly hinted at, indicated, suggested and implied that White Harbor and Gulltown are very close to each other in size. At 50k vs 30k the article has Gulltown at almost twice the size of White Harbor. That is almost certainly incorrect.

2. - Dorne is the least populous kingdom

Dorne does not have a higher population than the Stormlands. It is in fact the least populated of the Seven Kingdoms.

3. - The North is not equivalent to Scandinavia

It has been repeatedly discussed that the North is not the equivalent of Medieval Scandinavia. The Lands of the Free Folk are in fact the equivalent of Scandinavia. Scandinavia does not have good medieval farmland at its northernmost extreme, as the North does. Nor does Scandinavia have 600 miles of boreal forest extending North of its northernmost borders. In fact, the Haunted Forest pretty much places the polar circle around 600 miles North of the Wall. Meaning that the North itself extends more than 2000 miles South of the polar circle. Far, far further South than Scandinavia - or even Great Britain - extends.

The most likely real world comparison for the North is medieval European Russia. Which excludes Siberia. And that was far more populous than Scandinavia.

4. - Dorne is not equivalent to Spain

In the same vein as point 3, Dorne does not equate to Spain either. It rather equates to the North African desert kingdoms such as Morocco or Tunisia. So the article both under estimates the North's population, and overestimates Dorne's.

5. The West has a higher mobilization rate than the North, with downward implications for its population size

Based on comparative size, wealth and infrastructure, it seems clear that the Westerlands can raise a far higher percentage of its population to war than the North can. Not only is it cheaper to do so for the West, given the vastly shorter distances that troops have to travel, but they also have vastly more wealth than the North to fund such mobilization. This, coupled with their ability to buy food from the nearby Reach or Riverlands should the need arise (and the excess wealth to do so), clearly means that even if the West raises twice as many troops as the North, they may well still have a virtually identical overall population size to the North.

So, what this means, using the numbers provided in the article - if the North can raise 40k troops, and the West can raise 55k, that does not equate to the West having a higher population than the North. In fact, the North may still have a larger population overall, but they are just not able to mobilize the same percentage of their troops, nor are they able to mobilize those than can be mobilized in nearly the short space of time that the West can do so.

The fact remains that we are yet to see the full strength of the North. Martin himself stated that Robb's host was limited by time, distance and the motivation of his lords to commit men during the harvest. So until we see the full strength of the North, we don't actually know how their troop strength compares to that of the West. And even if it falls short in the end, the lower mobilization rate likely means that the North still has at least an equal population to that of the West, if not greater.

 

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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Quote

 

1.- Sizes of White Harbor and Gulltown

It has been repeatedly hinted at, indicated, suggested and implied that White Harbor and Gulltown are very close to each other in size. At 50k vs 30k the article has Gulltown at almost twice the size of White Harbor. That is almost certainly incorrect.

 

I did consider making them closer in size, but I've always had an issue with that given that the population of the two regions is comparable, but the North has one other confirmed, pretty big town with Barrowton whilst the Vale only has Sisterton, which seems a lot smaller. That to me suggests that Gulltown should be larger, along with its much more favourable position for trade. I don't think there's much more to it beyond that kind of feel, and GRRM's imprecision. Also, GRRM used to say that the two were more comparable in size, but more recently seems to be more definitive in saying that White Harbor is the smallest of the major cities.

Quote

 

2. - Dorne is the least populous kingdom

Dorne does not have a higher population than the Stormlands. It is in fact the least populated of the Seven Kingdoms.

 

In pre-AFFC materials, GRRM indicates that the Stormlands are less populous than Dorne. How this ties in with the AFFC revelation is unclear, especially since Doran's assertion that Dorne has the smallest population is immediately and clearly refuted due to the Iron Islands blatantly having a smaller population, but based on relative sizes and numbers of castles/houses etc, there are some indications that Dorne's population may be somewhat larger, comparable or somewhat less than the Stormlands. It does depend on what Doran's criteria is for making his list: if he is omitting the Iron Islands, he might be omitting the Stormlands too.

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3. - The North is not equivalent to Scandinavia

It has been repeatedly discussed that the North is not the equivalent of Medieval Scandinavia. The Lands of the Free Folk are in fact the equivalent of Scandinavia. Scandinavia does not have good medieval farmland at its northernmost extreme, as the North does. Nor does Scandinavia have 600 miles of boreal forest extending North of its northernmost borders. In fact, the Haunted Forest pretty much places the polar circle around 600 miles North of the Wall. Meaning that the North itself extends more than 2000 miles South of the polar circle. Far, far further South than Scandinavia - or even Great Britain - extends.

 

The treeline can actually extend above the Arctic Circle (as it does in places in Canada, Siberia and Scandinavia). I place the Arctic Circle 300 miles north of the Wall for the reasons discussed in the articles. Pushing it higher pushes both Westeros and Essos further south, which starts creating bigger and bigger problems with the North's habitability (i.e. it should become much more habitable, as you indicate).

I agree the North is not quite like Scandinavia, and European Russia is a better comparison, but I raise the connection because Ran does in the linked video when he talks about population density. I think he actually identifies this as a problem in itself, as the North's population density is less than Scandinavia's, which seems somewhat implausible.

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In the same vein as point 3, Dorne does not equate to Spain either. It rather equates to the North African desert kingdoms such as Morocco or Tunisia. So the article both under estimates the North's population, and overestimates Dorne's.

Martin himself has compared Dorne directly to Moorish Spain. I do agree that geographically it lies at more the latitude of north Africa (although I haven't checked to see how the fact that Martinworld is bigger than Earth affects that) but the comparison is one Martin himself has made, which indicates what his though process was for Dorne as a whole.

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Based on comparative size, wealth and infrastructure, it seems clear that the Westerlands can raise a far higher percentage of its population to war than the North can. Not only is it cheaper to do so for the West, given the vastly shorter distances that troops have to travel, but they also have vastly more wealth than the North to fund such mobilization. This, coupled with their ability to buy food from the nearby Reach or Riverlands should the need arise (and the excess wealth to do so), clearly means that even if the West raises twice as many troops as the North, they may well still have a virtually identical overall population size to the North.

So, what this means, using the numbers provided in the article - if the North can raise 40k troops, and the West can raise 55k, that does not equate to the West having a higher population than the North. In fact, the North may still have a larger population overall, but they are just not able to mobilize the same percentage of their troops, nor are they able to mobilize those than can be mobilized in nearly the short space of time that the West can do so.

The fact remains that we are yet to see the full strength of the North. Martin himself stated that Robb's host was limited by time, distance and the motivation of his lords to commit men during the harvest. So until we see the full strength of the North, we don't actually know how their troop strength compares to that of the West. And even if it falls short in the end, the lower mobilization rate likely means that the North still has at least an equal population to that of the West, if not greater.

 

I agree, but this takes us into the realm of high speculation, especially since GRRM's "untapped North strength" argument was really only invoked due to the cancellation of the five-year gap. Otherwise the North's newfound manpower (for the Battle of Ice and other struggles) would have simply come from the next generation of children growing up. As such the evidence for the North's manpower and hence population is conflicted from the early books through to the later ones and supporting materials due to George changing his mind.

As with most such things, we have to fall back on the Guardians of Order RPG, where Ran created the military numbers and ran them by George who said "Yes, that's broadly correct based on what the people of Westeros know and think", giving him the wriggle room to later explain Dorne. But given that George clearly refused to give any further information (the WoIaF is notable by its near-silence on the military manpower side of things), these are the only figures - if flawed - we are going to get.

 

Quote

 

1. Why did you decide to put 'neutral zones' between the various territories controlled by the Free Cities? Is there any textual evidence suggesting that there is such 'no man's land' between them aside from the cases in which we know this to be the case (i.e. the section of the Rhoyne controlled by the river pirates - although one could then just designate that 'river pirate territory' - or the Disputed Lands).

My gut feeling would be that the Free City states all have direct borders to each other simply because we don't learn anything about any land in between. If such land would exist, then people would live there, and this would inevitably mean that there were other political entities aside from the Free Cities in the lands controlled by those cities - however insignificant they might be. But we never anything about those, which means that no such entities exist (most likely, at least). Whether each Free City actually has more than nominal control over the lands in the vicinity of its sphere of influence is a matter of discussion, of course. I'd suggest that there is pretty good chance that this is the case with Braavos, for instance, due to the fact that the need of wood for the ships would determine that they control as much forested land as possible as thoroughly as they can.

 

The main textual evidence would be that Lys, Tyrosh and Myr are tearing one another apart over the Disputed Lands and the other Free Cities may have done the same if they had closely aligned borders. I could see Qohor and Norvos clashing over the mines on the Axe, for example. But I agree in other cases the borders may be directly adjacent: Pentos and Braavos based on their previous peace treaty, for example.

As for minor independent towns and villages, I wouldn't be surprised at all. Look at how George conjured in existence entire cities larger than King's Landing, vast ruins and so on in ADWD which hadn't been mentioned once in four preceding novels.

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2. I think we should differentiate between nation-/state-like political entities and regions that simply have geographical names. For instance, there is no reason to believe that the Shadowlands actually are a political entity of any kind. For all we know the name simply refers to all the lands in the vicinity of the Shadow Mountains. Cultural differences are not necessarily an indication for political unity. I'd not only include the Shadowlands in that category but also other distant regions we don't know much about - Mossovy, the Thousand Islands, etc.

Agreed, and I think there is a lot of ambiguity here. However, a distinction is drawn between those of the Shadow and the Asshai'i, indicating the people of the Shadow have some kind of defining or distinguishing identity. That may not translate into a political union, but it doesn't negate the possibility either.

Quote

 

3. George's usual tendency to imagine things big makes it very unlikely in my eyes the Free Cities aren't a lot bigger. KL has about a million inhabitants, if I'm correct, so Volantis could easily have 5-10, or even more (or rather may have had 10 million prior to the Century of Blood).

As far as we know the Free Cities (and not so much Westeros) are in charge of the eastern trade. And considering that this is a very profitable business (which is done by Westeros mostly via the Free Cities not by circumventing them) all of the Free Cities but Lorath (and, perhaps, Norvos and Qohor) should be much bigger than the biggest Westerosi cities.

 

King's Landing has a population of about 400,000, certainly not a million. And even with GRRM's grasp of population levels, 10 million for a medieval city is simply beyond the bounds of believability. Maybe 10 million for all of the lands controlled by Volantis, as a big population needs substantial agrarian areas to support it, but even that feels too big. At the sizes we're talking about there, they shouldn't be the Nine Free Cities but nine definitive, distinct nation-states.

For Myr, Lys and Tyrosh being much smaller, that's clearly supported by the history: Volantis could defeat any two of them but against all three it was a strain and overreach, which could then be easily reversed when yet more powers came to their aid.

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1 hour ago, Werthead said:

I did consider making them closer in size, but I've always had an issue with that given that the population of the two regions is comparable, but the North has one other confirmed, pretty big town with Barrowton whilst the Vale only has Sisterton, which seems a lot smaller. That to me suggests that Gulltown should be larger, along with its much more favourable position for trade. I don't think there's much more to it beyond that kind of feel, and GRRM's imprecision. Also, GRRM used to say that the two were more comparable in size, but more recently seems to be more definitive in saying that White Harbor is the smallest of the major cities.

In pre-AFFC materials, GRRM indicates that the Stormlands are less populous than Dorne. How this ties in with the AFFC revelation is unclear, especially since Doran's assertion that Dorne has the smallest population is immediately and clearly refuted due to the Iron Islands blatantly having a smaller population, but based on relative sizes and numbers of castles/houses etc, there are some indications that Dorne's population may be somewhat larger, comparable or somewhat less than the Stormlands. It does depend on what Doran's criteria is for making his list: if he is omitting the Iron Islands, he might be omitting the Stormlands too.

The treeline can actually extend above the Arctic Circle (as it does in places in Canada, Siberia and Scandinavia). I place the Arctic Circle 300 miles north of the Wall for the reasons discussed in the articles. Pushing it higher pushes both Westeros and Essos further south, which starts creating bigger and bigger problems with the North's habitability (i.e. it should become much more habitable, as you indicate).

I agree the North is not quite like Scandinavia, and European Russia is a better comparison, but I raise the connection because Ran does in the linked video when he talks about population density. I think he actually identifies this as a problem in itself, as the North's population density is less than Scandinavia's, which seems somewhat implausible.

Martin himself has compared Dorne directly to Moorish Spain. I do agree that geographically it lies at more the latitude of north Africa (although I haven't checked to see how the fact that Martinworld is bigger than Earth affects that) but the comparison is one Martin himself has made, which indicates what his though process was for Dorne as a whole.

I agree, but this takes us into the realm of high speculation, especially since GRRM's "untapped North strength" argument was really only invoked due to the cancellation of the five-year gap. Otherwise the North's newfound manpower (for the Battle of Ice and other struggles) would have simply come from the next generation of children growing up. As such the evidence for the North's manpower and hence population is conflicted from the early books through to the later ones and supporting materials due to George changing his mind.

As with most such things, we have to fall back on the Guardians of Order RPG, where Ran created the military numbers and ran them by George who said "Yes, that's broadly correct based on what the people of Westeros know and think", giving him the wriggle room to later explain Dorne. But given that George clearly refused to give any further information (the WoIaF is notable by its near-silence on the military manpower side of things), these are the only figures - if flawed - we are going to get.

Hi Wert

Thanks for the detailed reply. I understand the logic behind your thinking a bit better now. That said, I would like to point out one or two areas for consideration, based on your post above.

1. White Harbor vs Gulltown

Bear in mind that like the West, the Vale's population is very densely packed compared to that of the North. This means far shorter distances for troops to travel, and a much higher ratio of troops per square mile than that of the North. This coupled with their ample food stocks sourced from a comparatively small central area, means that their mobilization rate will, like the West, be significantly higher than that of the North. Hence, the fact that they can raise a comparable sized army to the North, as per Martin's SSM post, likely means that the North has a significantly higher overall population, given a lower mobilization rate. So in that sense the justification for a much larger Gulltown compared to White Harbor largely falls away.

The most direct quote from Martin I have seen on the matter merely states that Lannisport is much smaller than Oldtown, but much bigger than Gulltown and White Harbor. So while White Harbor is acknowledged as the smallest city in other quotes, Gulltown and White Harbor seem to fall into a very similar category in Martin's mind. 10%-20% larger seems to be the suggestion, rather than 50% larger or above.

2. Dorne vs the Stormlands

I agree that Dorne was originally a powerhouse comparable or higher than the Westerlands in military strength, in Martin's mind. His quote via Tyrion, and I believe again via Littlefinger or Varys at another point, about "50k Dornish spears", seems to have been very deliberately placed. His retcon later on was reasonably well explained, by use of the "false projection of strength" idea as articulated by Doran. It is clear that Doran would know better than anyone else where Dorne ranked and that Martin has downscaled Dorne's strength to the bottom of the mainland ladder.

Regarding the use of the term "the Seven Kingdoms" by Doran, this has been well explained by reference to the goblet with each of the Seven Kingdoms' sigils on it, with which Joffrey taunts Sansa in one of the early books. It is clear that the realm that is excluded from the "Seven Kingdoms" collective, is the Iron Isles. Joffrey still jokes that now that Robb is a traitor he should remove the Wolf and replace it with a Squid on the goblet. Clearly the common use of the collective term "The Seven Kingdoms" refers to the mainland regions only.

This makes logical sense, given that we know the Iron Isles has to have the smallest population. So Doran would have no reason to exclude the Stormlands from his comparison, but every reason to exclude the Iron Islands.

3. The North and Dorne's comparative geographical locations

I agree that the treeline can extend to up to 72 degrees latitude in the real world, although the Arctic Circle at 66 degrees tends to be the general cut off line. That said, I am pretty happy with the Arctic Circle being placed 300 miles North of the Wall. But even so, the North itself clearly extends far further South than Scandinavia. We seem to be largely in agreement on the North not being comparative to Scandinavia as such.  But the idea that the North has a lower population density than Scandinavia is not born out by the evidence.

Medieval Scandinavia did not have a city the size of medieval London, which White Harbor is. Nor could it raise 40,000 troops or more at a 1% mobilization rate. The North has the lowest population density in Westeros by far, but even at a lowly 5 people per square mile, it would still be more populated than medieval Scandinavia.

But given the North's size, 5 million people would disappear in its vastness and the North would look every bit like Robert Baratheon's "empty Barrowland" comment made it appear.

As for Dorne, while Martin compared it to Moorish Spain in culture, it is clear that its geography resembles the deep deserts of North Africa far more closely, and hence its population density would mirror that of proper desert kingdoms, rather than Spain. It seems Martin only realized this later in his writing process, hence his retcon.

4. Speculation on West vs North populations

I don't entirely agree that the North's strength is completely "newfound post the 5 year gap".

It is noteworthy that Martin commented that Robb was not able to raise the North's full strength many years ago - long before the loss of the 5 year gap, in fact. So even before the cancellation of the 5 year gap, Martin made it clear that he had always intended for Robb's 20k men to only be a portion of the North's armed potential, not its full strength. I agree that this appears to have been ramped up even more post the 5 year gap. However, as you rightly state yourself, we see that even at the time of the RPG, very early on, Martin had a 40k+ strength in mind for the North. So even back then, the North was around 80% of the West's strength, or more.

In that light, I find the comparative mobilization rate logic to be very robust, and so for the North to raise similar amounts of armed men to the likes of the Vale, it almost certainly needs a much larger population than the Vale. Similarly, for the North to raise perhaps 67%-80% of the number of men that the West can raise, they must at the very least match the West's population, and quite likely exceed it. That's if internal logic holds sway in the worldbuilding.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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Nice job, i have been looking for The Known World map with tWoIaF "update".
Only one thing bothers me, in every map i have found the Lonely Light is IMO too big. I think its because in tLoIaF maps "The Known World" and "Westeros" the Lonely Lights size changes: http://i.imgur.com/YJSdRIB.jpg

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That's an excellent post on the world's size, and the size of the Known World in comparison (it does look bigger on the globe than on the square map compared to the planet's surface). If there's no civilizations worth trading with east of the Saffron Strait or the Gray Waste, and then a vast ocean that may or may not have an Americas-equivalent continent in the middle of it, then it makes sense that the Maester's knowledge of the east would just taper off. As I pointed out on the blog, if there were major civilizations eastward, they'd probably know of them in the way that European scholars were aware of China in the Middle Ages. 

And then of course Sothoryos has velociraptor packs to wipe out any humans who try to settle too far south (and somehow survive the diseases). Maybe Ulthos has something similar. Then again, the Summer Island folks seem to be surviving in a tropical climate despite the potential for diseases, so I wonder why they don't have colonies along the western coast of Sothoryos. 

 

Edited by Electric Bass

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On 09/04/2016 at 6:55 AM, Electric Bass said:

And then of course Sothoryos has velociraptor packs to wipe out any humans who try to settle too far south (and somehow survive the diseases). Maybe Ulthos has something similar. Then again, the Summer Island folks seem to be surviving in a tropical climate despite the potential for diseases, so I wonder why they don't have colonies along the western coast of Sothoryos. 

 

According to WoIaF, they did. They were destroyed by the same forces that destroyed Yeen and the various other colonies, and the Summer Islanders now steer well clear of the entire continent.

Edited by Werthead

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Updated the original post with some of the newer things I've been doing recently.

I think next I'll be looking at rebuilding the Arm of Dorne and also tracking the journeys of the some of the legendary explorers of the known world, such as Lomas Longstrider and Corys Velaryon.

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On 4/10/2016 at 5:15 AM, Werthead said:

According to WoIaF, they did. They were destroyed by the same forces that destroyed Yeen and the various other colonies, and the Summer Islanders now steer well clear of the entire continent.

The Children of the Forest's badass cousins, The Children of the Jungle. None of that hippy bullshit the Forest kids were known for.

 

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@Werthead:

Just wanted to throw in a tidbit from 'The Sons of the Dragons':

When the Conqueror made plans for the building of the Red Keep under Visenya and the new Hand, Alyn Stokeworth, in 35 AC, 100,000 people were already living at KL. Only Lannisport and Oldtown were still larger at this time.

So the estimation of Gulltown and White Harbor having less than 100,000 people is effectively confirmed.

And from Yandel we also know that KL's population has eclipsed Oldtown's only very recently so they must be rather close to each other in that regard.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

@Werthead:

Just wanted to throw in a tidbit from 'The Sons of the Dragons':

When the Conqueror made plans for the building of the Red Keep under Visenya and the new Hand, Alyn Stokeworth, in 35 AC, 100,000 people were already living at KL. Only Lannisport and Oldtown were still larger at this time.

So the estimation of Gulltown and White Harbor having less than 100,000 people is effectively confirmed.

And from Yandel we also know that KL's population has eclipsed Oldtown's only very recently so they must be rather close to each other in that regard.

Martin has stated before that White Harbor and Gulltown have populations in the "tens of thousands". So between 20 and 90 thousand, therefore. They are also stated to be close to each other in size.  50k for one and 60k for the other seems to be a fair middle ground assessment, given the above.

 

 

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Latest map: Westeros & Essos in the Dawn Age. Including sub-maps on the Lake of Dorne, the Silver Sea and where the black oily stone has been located in the world.

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Hey @Werthead, this is really nice!

I had a small quibble though: I think there are two types of black stone - one, the oily black stone of mysterious origin, and another, fused black stone (which was possibly made using dragonfire). If I am not wrong, the oily black stone is only in four places: Yeen, Asshai, Toad Island, Seastone Chair. It is not clear if the stone used in the Five Forts, Lorath and Hightower is the same as the oily black stone.

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The map of the Lake Dorne is interesting, because based on that, it would appear that the migration into Westeros in fact did not go through the harsh deserts of Dorne, but instead would have passed through the much more fertile strip of land north of the Sea of Dorne, straight into the Stormlands.

It seems unlikely that primitive First Men would have crossed into the Dornish deserts when they could have moved straight into the Stormlands instead. Does this mean that the earliest First Men settlements would be in the Stormlands, in truth, rather than in Dorne?

And that Dorne might have been bypassed for centuries - or even millennia - until all the more fertile areas had been occupied first?

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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