Some thoughts on Alayne Stone and Littlefinger.

[Macgregor of the North]

 

I've been researching some stuff on Sansa and the Vale etc and I came across a comment I likely skimmed over originally concerning the origin of Alaynes name. Sansa wants to be named after her mother but LF says no to that but keeps the idea of naming after 'a mother' and names her after his own. 

A Storm of Swords - Sansa VI 
"I . . . I could call myself after my mother . . ."
"Catelyn? A bit too obvious . . . but after my mother, that would serve. Alayne. Do you like it?" 

So we have Sansa named after LF's mother Alayne. And here is her origins:

""I was teasing. Your mother was a gentlewoman of Braavos, daughter of a merchant prince. We met in Gulltown when I had charge of the port. She died giving you birth, and entrusted you to the Faith. I have some devotional books you can look over. Learn to quote from them. Nothing discourages unwanted questions as much as a flow of pious bleating. In any case, at your flowering you decided you did not wish to be a septa and wrote to me. That was the first I knew of your existence." He fingered his beard. "Do you think you can remember all that?"

She is supposed to be the daughter of a gentlewoman of Braavos LF met in Gulltown. So as it goes, a well off Braavosi lady, the daughter of a merchant prince, from a good family comes to Gulltown while LF is in charge of the port there and he impregnates her. Must be 284-285 since Alayne is supposed to be fourteen in 299AC. Then are we to believe that the Braavosi woman and LF just part company and do not keep contact? because he only knows of this daughter as of when she reaches fourteen years of age, and she gets in touch with him claiming she does not want to be a Septa so he comes to claim her?, how is she supposed to know who her father was?. In any event This in itself goes against LF's character in every sense, he is never portrayed once in the books who does anything for anyone unless it benefits a scheme of his own and the characters in the books who know him and of him know this to. He is just not the type of person to take on a bastard girl because she claims he's her father when he has never ever knew she existed. How is she to prove he is her father? And the people in the books know he's not this type of person either. 

So if this is the first time he's ever heard she existed it means he never knew the Braavosi gentlewoman was pregnant right? 
So did the gentlewoman stay in Gulltown the whole pregnancy yeah? Because Alayne is from Gulltown and grew up in the faiths care there right? Her merchant prince father never took her back to Braavos? Which means the imaginary mother was left alone during a pregnancy with no LF and no father?. Then when she goes in to Labour she dies birthing Alayne and entrusts her to the Faith. The wording is strange here also. She must have been dying and said for the faith to take the baby, or was planning to give the baby to the faith in the first place. So where does the name Alayne come in to play. If LF's story is that he never knew of the pregnancy he certainly never asked the woman to affectionately name her after his mother. The woman herself had to do this. If she entrusted the child to the faith while dying are we to presume she named the child after LF's mother in the hope the child would find a way to its father? How do we know the woman ever knew LF's mothers name. And if the child was meant to find its way to LF the woman could have just got word sent to LF that he had a child but his story is that he never even knew in the first place. It all seems really iffy and thrown together. 

So thinking on it all. LF had to have either moved from Gulltown completely right after getting the woman pregnant or he just blanked her completely giving her the cold shoulder which wouldn't leave her very happy with him which makes it stranger that she would name her daughter after LF's mother. People would automatically enquire into this story on the basis on Alaynes age and check if he was even in Gulltown. It's not known when he left to become master of coin at KL (I wish it was!) but I'm sure Lysa must have started scheming to have him named master of coin in KL very soon after she married Jon and he became hand there.

 
This is LF's story. I have only just begun to try and find chinks in his armour and right off the bat I don't like the water tightness of his story. It seems weak. 

I'm sure if I can figure this out in like ten minutes, the Lords and ladies in Georges story can question it to and start enquiring into the reasoning behind LF's story of where this beautiful bastard girl who has undoubtedly got Tully looks cane from. I know the hairs dyed but Sansas Tully looks are well documented in the books.

And already Sansa has been botching up her story big time as she has proven to be clueless when it comes to the faith as she would have answered Myrandas planted comment on the high septon eagerly instead of pouncing on the Lord Commander comment and putting her foot right In it by blurting Jon Snow. Something incidentally she wouldn't and shouldn't know but growing up in the order of the faith the high septon news should have been something she at least made conversation about.

I'm becoming more convinced that by the time LF 'reveals' Sansa a few people will already know who she is and it may even be a case of somebody reveals her before him. Why this would happen and to what effect is something I'm looking into but I haven't got there yet. 

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

25 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 

 

I'm sure if I can figure this out in like ten minutes,

 You do realize that we the reader were told that Sansa was not really Littlefingers bastard. We didnt work anything out.

Quote

 

the Lords and ladies in Georges story can question it to and start enquiring into the reasoning behind LF's story of where this beautiful bastard girl who has undoubtedly got Tully looks cane from. I know the hairs dyed but Sansas Tully looks are well documented in the books.

The Tullys are not Targaryens, they don't have a distinctive look that stands out in Westeros (and even the Targaryens don't have an exclusivity on their appearance as the Daynes and Velaryons are similar).

Cat commenting on which of her children take more after her side of the family rather than Ned's does not mean that a secret Tully is automatically going to be noticeable to people who did not have much contact with them. There is going to be thousands of non Tullys who have similarities to Sansa.

 

[FrostyDornishman]

I agree that the story (at least the collection of details they came up with in that one scene) isn't water-tight upon close inspection, and that feels a little out of character for such a practiced schemer as LF.  But it looks like most of the discrepancies are there because there are missing details to the story, rather than it being a complete story that contradicts itself.

25 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

how is she supposed to know who her father was?

This is straight speculation, but maybe when children are "given to the faith" the septas/septons/whoever keep a record of who gives them up.  Then, when the children come of age or they ask about it, they hand over the information and let them decide if they want to stay with the faith or reach out to surviving family members.  I'm not saying this is definitely how it works, or even that it's likely, but we simply don't have the information to say whether or not this little detail makes sense.  I'm assuming it does somehow, because LF isn't a fool.

32 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

In any event This in itself goes against LF's character in every sense, he is never portrayed once in the books who does anything for anyone unless it benefits a scheme of his own and the characters in the books who know him and of him know this to. He is just not the type of person to take on a bastard girl because she claims he's her father when he has never ever knew she existed. How is she to prove he is her father? And the people in the books know he's not this type of person either. 

Assuming that Alayne could prove her heritage to LF and contact him, I don't think claiming a bastard is necessarily the most selfless act in the world.  From an outsider's perspective, it looks like he's just recruiting useful people to his side every way he can, whether it's with charm or money or claiming blood ties to a beautiful marriage-worthy maiden.  He's clearly using Alayne to his advantage anyway right?

I'm not saying that nobody will figure it out, or that nobody has suspicions.  Maybe GRRM left those gaps in the story so somebody can come sleuthing around.  But for the most part I don't think anybody cares about the finer details of Alayne's origin story.  To them, at the end of the day, she's just some bastard, and hardly worth their curiosity.  We can't even be sure that a single person has asked after the finer details of Alayne's life.  Myranda Royce wants some juicy deets, but her questions seem more focused on LF's doings and Alayne's personality, not her childhood.

[Macgregor of the North]

24 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

 You do realize that we the reader were told that Sansa was not really Littlefingers bastard. We didnt work anything out.

The Tullys are not Targaryens, they don't have a distinctive look that stands out in Westeros (and even the Targaryens don't have an exclusivity on their appearance as the Daynes and Velaryons are similar).

Cat commenting on which of her children take more after her side of the family rather than Ned's does not mean that a secret Tully is automatically going to be noticeable to people who did not have much contact with them. There is going to be thousands of non Tullys who have similarities to Sansa.

 

I mean figure out that the story is iffy and thrown together and doesn't seem right. Don't be a smart arse little dragon 

And the Tullys do have a certain look. Here is LF, and he hadn't even met Sansa at this point. 

"When Sansa finally looked up, a man was standing over her, staring. He was short, with a pointed beard and a silver streak in his hair, almost as old as her father. "You must be one of her daughters," he said to her. He had grey-green eyes that did not smile when his mouth did. "You have the Tully look."

[Anna Marzo]

34 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I mean figure out that the story is iffy and thrown together and doesn't seem right. Don't be a smart arse little dragon 

And the Tullys do have a certain look. Here is LF, and he hadn't even met Sansa at this point. 

"When Sansa finally looked up, a man was standing over her, staring. He was short, with a pointed beard and a silver streak in his hair, almost as old as her father. "You must be one of her daughters," he said to her. He had grey-green eyes that did not smile when his mouth did. "You have the Tully look."

I think he guessed the Tully look more because Sansa looks a lot like young Cat, with who LF grew up with, than because of a specific look itself. He looked at Sansa and immediately saw a mini Catelyn.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

The thing Alayne has going for her is the same thing Jon Snow has going for him--people rarely lie to say that they *do* have a bastard. More often there is a bastard but he/she goes unacknowledged. So when someone says "this is my natural son/daughter" people don't typically react with suspicion.

Reading between the lines in the story, it sounds like LF means people to presume that the woman in Gulltown was put into a convent for being pregnant out of wedlock--that's happened to a few Westerosi noblewomen so Vale folk probably wouldn't think anything weird about it. For those more familiar with Braavosi customs it might sound odd of course.

And I second those suggesting that the Faith keeps records of children given up to them, including if a mother names an absent father. It makes sense. Historically and in-world, monks/nuns and septons/septas tend to keep pretty thorough records.

One last thing: people in-world do not generally have a terrible opinion of LF. They certainly don't think of him as a hardcore Machiavellian schemer (by and large, though a few suspect him). So the idea of him taking in a newly-discovered natural daughter would not automatically strike them as out of character.

So yeah, the story isn't watertight, but not full of obvious holes, either.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

31 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 

And the Tullys do have a certain look. Here is LF, and he hadn't even met Sansa at this point. 

"When Sansa finally looked up, a man was standing over her, staring. He was short, with a pointed beard and a silver streak in his hair, almost as old as her father. "You must be one of her daughters," he said to her. He had grey-green eyes that did not smile when his mouth did. "You have the Tully look."

Littlefinger did not just bump into Sansa in a street. He knew that Ned (and Cat was in the city) he knew that Ned brought his daughters and he knew where they would be. Not only that but Sansa was likely wearing her Houses colors and had Stark men around her.

He already knew who she was and where she would be before even seeing her.

[Macgregor of the North]

24 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Littlefinger did not just bump into Sansa in a street. He knew that Ned (and Cat was in the city) he knew that Ned brought his daughters and he knew where they would be. Not only that but Sansa was likely wearing her Houses colors and had Stark men around her.

He already knew who she was and where she would be before even seeing her.

Sansa went to the first days jousting with only Septa Mordane and Jeyne Poole in a green gown. Jeyne Poole had actually went away sick so it was only Sansa and the Septa in the stands left when LF came up. No WF colours or WF men. 

Yes LF knew she would be around and hoped to find her but there's no way he would know where the seats were that Ned found for them in the stands, he's not that good. So what drew him to her in the end was her Tully looks when he chanced to see her in the crowd.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

24 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Sansa went to the first days jousting with only Septa Mordane and Jeyne Poole in a green gown. Jeyne Poole had actually went away sick so it was only Sansa and the Septa in the stands left when LF came up. No WF colours or WF men. 

Yes LF knew she would be around and hoped to find her but there's no way he would know where the seats were that Ned found for them in the stands, he's not that good. So what drew him to her in the end was her Tully looks when he chanced to see her in the crowd.

Of course he would know were they would be sitting. She is the daughter of the Hand, she is not going to be sitting with the smallfolk.

[Anna Marzo]

37 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Of course he would know were they would be sitting. She is the daughter of the Hand, she is not going to be sitting with the smallfolk.

^  exactly

[Macgregor of the North]

On 29 March 2016 at 7:28 PM, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Of course he would know were they would be sitting. She is the daughter of the Hand, she is not going to be sitting with the smallfolk.

The stands are going to be huge with tons of people. Of course he knows she's not gonna be in with the small folk, obviously, but since Ned sorted out the seats himself, LF won't know exactly where to look. The area that seats highborn folks will be a massive size. Stop just looking for anything to be akward , 1st it was the clothes , the WF men, the Tully look, now this. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

4 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

The stands are going to be huge with tons of people. Of course he knows she's not gonna be in with the small folk, obviously, but since Ned sorted out the exact seats himself, LF won't know exactly where to look. The area that seats highborn folks will be a massive size. Stop just looking for anything to be akward , 1st it was the clothes , the WF men, the Tully look, now this. 

Littlefinger knew exactly where and when Cat would be arriving in Kings Landing, the biggest city in Westeros. Of course he is going to know were Sansa would be sitting at a Tournament that is held for the new Hand. The Starks are the guests of honor sat with the Royal family.

Sansa and Septa Mordane were given places of high honor, to the left of the raised dais where the king himself sat beside his queen. When Prince Joffrey seated himself to her right, she felt her throat tighten.

 

Littlefinger is going to know exactly were they were sitting. It is not just any random noble that is sitting next to the Prince and the King.

[Mladen]

Between Royce's words being "We remember" and Myranda's suspicious mention of Jon Snow, I am not that fully convinced that LF has Vale lords in his pocket, as he would think. I wouldn't be surprised to find out they have also been playing him and that the only reason Anya Waynwood accepted the match between Harry and Alayne is because she knows who Alayne really is.

That said, when it comes to bastards and shameful things, people usually don't pry too much. Look at the story of Jon's mother and how Ned brought him to WF. Bastards are not something you generally brag, so if you say you have, or you have a bastard niece, people will likely to believe in it. As Varys said, "thieves and cravens are soon forgotten". Same goes with bastards and their origin. People simply don't care too much about them unless they do have a reason to.

[Macgregor of the North]

36 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Littlefinger knew exactly where and when Cat would be arriving in Kings Landing, the biggest city in Westeros. Of course he is going to know were Sansa would be sitting at a Tournament that is held for the new Hand. The Starks are the guests of honor sat with the Royal family.

Sansa and Septa Mordane were given places of high honor, to the left of the raised dais where the king himself sat beside his queen. When Prince Joffrey seated himself to her right, she felt her throat tighten.

 

Littlefinger is going to know exactly were they were sitting. It is not just any random noble that is sitting next to the Prince and the King.

Sorry littledragon but i am clearly referring to the jousting lol. You seem to be referring to where they sat at the feast after? So I repeat, stop just looking for things to be akward, it's tiresome. And if you are going to, at least get it right.

Heres the quote. 

A Game of Thrones - Sansa II 

Sansa rode to the Hand's tourney with Septa Mordane and Jeyne Poole, in a litter with curtains of yellow silk so fine she could see right through them. They turned the whole world gold. Beyond the city walls, a hundred pavilions had been raised beside the river, and the common folk came out in the thousands to watch the games. The splendor of it all took Sansa's breath away; the shining armor, the great chargers caparisoned in silver and gold, the shouts of the crowd, the banners snapping in the wind … and the knights themselves, the knights most of all.

"It is better than the songs," she whispered when they found the places that her father had promised her, among the high lords and ladies. Sansa was dressed beautifully that day, in a green gown that brought out the auburn of her hair, and she knew they were looking at her and smiling.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

8 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Sorry littledragon but i am clearly referring to the jousting lol. You seem to be referring to where they sat at the feast after? So I repeat, stop just looking for things to be akward, it's tiresome. And if you are going to, at least get it right.

Heres the quote. 

A Game of Thrones - Sansa II 

Sansa rode to the Hand's tourney with Septa Mordane and Jeyne Poole, in a litter with curtains of yellow silk so fine she could see right through them. They turned the whole world gold. Beyond the city walls, a hundred pavilions had been raised beside the river, and the common folk came out in the thousands to watch the games. The splendor of it all took Sansa's breath away; the shining armor, the great chargers caparisoned in silver and gold, the shouts of the crowd, the banners snapping in the wind … and the knights themselves, the knights most of all.

"It is better than the songs," she whispered when they found the places that her father had promised her, among the high lords and ladies. Sansa was dressed beautifully that day, in a green gown that brought out the auburn of her hair, and she knew they were looking at her and smiling.

Maybe you should read again.

Their seats were reserved and Littlefinger was the person who organized the event. Of course he is going to know where they would be sitting.

So not only did Littlefinger organize the event but even if he had not, Littlefinger was able to know exactly when and where Cat entered Kings Landing. How do you figure that he could find out something like that but would not know where Sans was sitting at Tournament held for her father?

[Macgregor of the North]

2 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Maybe you should read again.

Their seats were reserved and Littlefinger was the person who organized the event. Of course he is going to know where they would be sitting.

So not only did Littlefinger organize the event but even if he had not, Littlefinger was able to know exactly when and where Cat entered Kings Landing. How do you figure that he could find out something like that but would not know where Sans was sitting at Tournament held for her father?

Nothing you can say now will make me think you are not being stubborn and akward and a tad silly. You have tried with every comment since I posted this to assert yourself as some authority on the matter but to no avail. Next time mate, try commenting positively on people's posts, the discussions will be so much better and you may not look silly next time.  I wish you well on my next thread when you no doubt try to do the same thing you have done today. But for this one, the day is mine! Good day Ser.

[Bea Noleto]

LF knowing or not where Sansa sat at the tourney is irrelevant for the "Tully look" issue. Sansa looks like her mother, and it seems it is not just because of the hair, she is said to be a mini Cat, who is known in the Vale. And even if she was not, Lysa looks like Cat, so Alayne would have a resemblance with the Lady of the Vale for anyone who cares to notice. The thing is that, as a bastard, very few people do. For now, anyway. If she is publicly bethrothed to Harry the Heir, that might change.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

17 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Nothing you can say now will make me think you are not being stubborn and akward and a tad silly. You have tried with every comment since I posted this to assert yourself as some authority on the matter but to no avail. Next time mate, try commenting positively on people's posts, the discussions will be so much better and you may not look silly next time.  I wish you well on my next thread when you no doubt try to do the same thing you have done today. But for this one, the day is mine! Good day Ser.

Is it that hard to answer a simple question?

I will ask again

So not only did Littlefinger organize the event but even if he had not, Littlefinger was able to know exactly when and where Cat entered Kings Landing. How do you figure that he could find out something like that but would not know where Sansa was sitting at a Tournament held for her father?

Obviously if you can't answer it then I will understand.

[Nevets]

The story just has to be good enough to dissuade casual inquiry.  Anybody who is inclined to look closer would probably be doing so because they would suspect that she is really Sansa Stark, and it is unlikely that another story would work in any case.  Once they suspect who she really is, no story is going to work well.

[TheSnowInWinterfell]

@Nevets nailed it.  If someone even so much as suspects that Alayne is actually Sansa, then no cover story will hold up. However if the story is taken at face value and the person questioning is under the impression Alayne is Alayne then they would probably not care all that much about the details so the story won't NEED to hold up....