Rob's Proclamation

[Chris Mormont]

When Rob informs Catelyn that he is naming Jon his heir it is right after he decided to send Maege Mormont and Glover to seek out Howland Reed.  He asks his lords to sign the proclamation, but we are never told what happens to the document.  I think we all assume it went with the envoys, and thus may still surface, making Jon a Stark, and King of the North, but that doesn't make sense.  He sent them with false written orders in the event of their capture, why then would he send the real proclamation with them?  Furthermore, why would he put that document in the hands of someone who wouldn't be with him?  This is a document which would need to be produced upon his death and therefore I think it should stay close to him.  If that were the case then I would assume it was destroyed in the aftermath of the Red Wedding. 

Any thoughts or evidence of the contrary? 

[aryagonnakill#2]

4 minutes ago, Chris Mormont said:

When Rob informs Catelyn that he is naming Jon his heir it is right after he decided to send Maege Mormont and Glover to seek out Howland Reed.  He asks his lords to sign the proclamation, but we are never told what happens to the document.  I think we all assume it went with the envoys, and thus may still surface, making Jon a Stark, and King of the North, but that doesn't make sense.  He sent them with false written orders in the event of their capture, why then would he send the real proclamation with them?  Furthermore, why would he put that document in the hands of someone who wouldn't be with him?  This is a document which would need to be produced upon his death and therefore I think it should stay close to him.  If that were the case then I would assume it was destroyed in the aftermath of the Red Wedding. 

Any thoughts or evidence of the contrary? 

There is really only a few places it could be.  Lost or destroyed at the Red Wedding as you say.  Taken to and left at Seaguard, with the fake orders being taken on to the Neck from there, or back at Riverrun/in the possession of the BF wherever he may be.  Some people think the BF made too much fuss about Jon Snow being a traitor when Jaime mentioned him at Riverrun, it is also a safe place where the people Robb trusted most were(Jeyne and BF).

[Lord Lannister]

Why would he keep a document that holds the fate on his kingdom close enough that whomever killed him could gain access to it?

[Buried Treasure]

The relevance to Maege Mormont and Glover is not that they would have a signed copy of the will - that was probably kept with Robb's main force and can be presumed lost at the Twins, it matters that they were witnesses to the Will. The number of lords that witnessed this signing was small, and probably they would not have spread it as gossip as that would have lowered morale at a time when the army had little but faith in their young king to keep faith in. After the RW Robb and Cat were dead, Mallister was besieged, and Edmure and the Greatjon were captive.

After the publication of ASoS the reasoning was that Glover and Mormont were the only witnesses with the freedom to act. That is slightly less true now as Edmure has had the opportunity to speak to the Blackfish and tell him about the will, but they are still the ones that have the most chance to plan and are the characters most likely to turn up and tell someone that he was named as Robb's heir in the event of his death before begetting a child on Jayne.

[Buried Treasure]

38 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Why would he keep a document that holds the fate on his kingdom close enough that whomever killed him could gain access to it?

Robb did not envision betrayal from a host and the destruction of his entire army. He was taking a precaution against his own death in battle. He was established as a commander who took precautions in the field, so it only makes sense that he before battle he would give orders for his household to take in case of the army's defeat in the battle - utter routs where all order is lost is rare - especially when the commander is taking the offensive against an enemy that he know is weak (i.e. the remaining Ironborn at Moat Cailin).

[Julia H.]

1 hour ago, Chris Mormont said:

When Rob informs Catelyn that he is naming Jon his heir it is right after he decided to send Maege Mormont and Glover to seek out Howland Reed.  He asks his lords to sign the proclamation, but we are never told what happens to the document.  I think we all assume it went with the envoys, and thus may still surface, making Jon a Stark, and King of the North, but that doesn't make sense.  He sent them with false written orders in the event of their capture, why then would he send the real proclamation with them?  Furthermore, why would he put that document in the hands of someone who wouldn't be with him?  This is a document which would need to be produced upon his death and therefore I think it should stay close to him.  If that were the case then I would assume it was destroyed in the aftermath of the Red Wedding. 

Any thoughts or evidence of the contrary? 

The document gets quite a lot of emphasis in the novel - writing it is basically the last thing Robb does before going to the Red Wedding, he has an argument about it with his mother, the readers are not told what the exact clauses are but get the list of those who sign it and finally we don't know what happens to the document afterwards, but we do know that there are surviving witnesses who know the contents. All this, IMO, points to a very strong probability that the document will surface again (whether in its physical form or in the memory of the witnesses is another question) and will play a role at some point in the plot.

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

Why would he keep a document that holds the fate on his kingdom close enough that whomever killed him could gain access to it?

I think it's a valid point even if it depends on what he is expecting. He may think if he dies in battle, the will won't be safe in his pocket or he may think even if he dies in battle, his people will retrieve his body and will find the will in his pocket. In general, sending such a document to a "safe" place (far from the battlefield) to be guarded by someone trustworthy is a logical thought (I mean how many people in real life walk about with their wills in their pockets?), and since Westeros has no lawyers, a place like Greywater Watch could be the idea.   

[Lost Melnibonean]

Wouldn't a travelling monarch have to have a seneschal to take care of that sort of thing? Perhaps he was perfumed 

[Raisin' Bran]

2 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Why would he keep a document that holds the fate on his kingdom close enough that whomever killed him could gain access to it?

What would you do with the will?

I think sending it with Maege makes the most sense. 

The plan was to set out for Moat Cailin (SP) after the wedding, and nothing is certain in battle. So he would need to place the will with someone who would not attack the Neck from the south.

Additionally, the will would be much more useful in the North rather than in the Riverlands, so giving it to a riverlord seems out of the question to me.

This leaves Glover and Mormont (and their respective parties) to carry the will with them. Perhaps I have made too many assumptions.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Is the Will really that big of a deal? We know Bran, Rickon and Arya are still alive, we know that Jon could have had Winterfell without the Will and we know that Sansa will potentially have some Vale support to be able to win back her home.

 

A newly married 16 year old worrying about who his heir will be and the ruins of Oldstones with the Mudd King who was killed and his dynasty quickly wiped out despite him winning 99 battles is clear foreshadowing of Robb's future in the very next Cat chapter.

We the reader know that wills are pretty meaningless after we see Ned arrested despite his paper shield. The Will is meaningless to the current events in the North, the people who want Roose dead are not doing so because of a will.

[DarkSister1001]

Welcome!    Great questions. 

1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

The document gets quite a lot of emphasis in the novel - writing it is basically the last thing Robb does before going to the Red Wedding, he has an argument about it with his mother, the readers are not told what the exact clauses are but get the list of those who sign it and finally we don't know what happens to the document afterwards, but we do know that there are surviving witnesses who know the contents. All this, IMO, points to a very strong probability that the document will surface again (whether in its physical form or in the memory of the witnesses is another question) and will play a role at some point in the plot.

I think it's a valid point even if it depends on what he is expecting. He may think if he dies in battle, the will won't be safe in his pocket or he may think even if he dies in battle, his people will retrieve his body and will find the will in his pocket. In general, sending such a document to a "safe" place (far from the battlefield) to be guarded by someone trustworthy is a logical thought (I mean how many people in real life walk about with their wills in their pockets?), and since Westeros has no lawyers, a place like Greywater Watch could be the idea.   

  I think when Jon is conscious he'll have a choice to make.  And knowing that Robb wanted him as his heir will help him make that decision. 

[Lord Lannister]

35 minutes ago, Raisin' Bran said:

What would you do with the will?

I think sending it with Maege makes the most sense. 

The plan was to set out for Moat Cailin (SP) after the wedding, and nothing is certain in battle. So he would need to place the will with someone who would not attack the Neck from the south.

Additionally, the will would be much more useful in the North rather than in the Riverlands, so giving it to a riverlord seems out of the question to me.

This leaves Glover and Mormont (and their respective parties) to carry the will with them. Perhaps I have made too many assumptions.

If Robb distributed copies to all his bannermen, or even the prominent ones, there would be little ambiguity on what he wishes should he fall. A single copy can be lost, captured, hidden. Someone who witnesses it can intentionally or unintentionally misinterpret it. Copies to everyone makes sure everything is above board.

[Julia H.]

57 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Is the Will really that big of a deal? We know Bran, Rickon and Arya are still alive, we know that Jon could have had Winterfell without the Will and we know that Sansa will potentially have some Vale support to be able to win back her home.

 

A newly married 16 year old worrying about who his heir will be and the ruins of Oldstones with the Mudd King who was killed and his dynasty quickly wiped out despite him winning 99 battles is clear foreshadowing of Robb's future in the very next Cat chapter.

We the reader know that wills are pretty meaningless after we see Ned arrested despite his paper shield. The Will is meaningless to the current events in the North, the people who want Roose dead are not doing so because of a will.

There are many ways in which the will can be significant. One of the (perhaps minor) points is that getting Winterfell from Stannis is not the same as inheriting it from Robb. We know that Jon constantly struggles with Robb's memory and a feeling of guilt whenever it comes to the idea that he wants to be the Lord of Winterfell. Knowing that Robb chose him would mean to him a lot even if it didn't change the political status quo. Also Stannis would have legitimized Jon on condition that he became the Lord of Winterfell. The will may legitimize him without condition (before naming him Robb's heir). Unlike Stannis, the will also names Jon king. That also may have some significance somewhere to someone. 

I also think it is possible that Jon finds out the contents of the will around the same time he finds out that Ned Stark was not his biological father. Imagine the conflict of the heart he would feel with a document that names him Ned Stark's trueborn son while knowing that he is not even Ned's biological son. It could mean another important choice in his life, especially if his true parentage is not known to others. It doesn't even have to be a political choice, it could be an identity choice, a choice of conscience.

On the other hand, it may also tip the political balance somewhow, it may be a factor in a political decision somewhere. 

Robert's will is different. It has already served a purpose in the novel, which was the reconciliation between Ned and Robert. They had been estranged in the weeks before Robert's death, but it was still Ned that Robert trusted on his deathbed, it was to Ned that he confessed his mistakes and told his last will, giving him one final responsibility. That was the significance of that will in the plot, not its literal contents. Robb's will hasn't played its part yet, in my opinion. It's probably hiding somewhere to turn up whenever the author considers it the right time. 

46 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

Welcome!    Great questions. 

  I think when Jon is conscious he'll have a choice to make.  And knowing that Robb wanted him as his heir will help him make that decision. 

That's what I think, too.

[Makk]

48 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Is the Will really that big of a deal? We know Bran, Rickon and Arya are still alive, we know that Jon could have had Winterfell without the Will and we know that Sansa will potentially have some Vale support to be able to win back her home.

 

A newly married 16 year old worrying about who his heir will be and the ruins of Oldstones with the Mudd King who was killed and his dynasty quickly wiped out despite him winning 99 battles is clear foreshadowing of Robb's future in the very next Cat chapter.

We the reader know that wills are pretty meaningless after we see Ned arrested despite his paper shield. The Will is meaningless to the current events in the North, the people who want Roose dead are not doing so because of a will.

The will is anything but meaningless to Jon. He is tempted but ultimately he doesn't take it, largely because of the Old gods and Melisandre, but also because he needs affirmation that he is a Stark and deserves it.

Every morning [Jon and Robb] had trained together, since they were big enough to walk; Snow and Stark, spinning and slashing about the wards of Winterfell, shouting and laughing, sometimes crying when there was no one else to see. They were not little boys when they fought but knights and mighty heroes. “I’m Prince Aemon the Dragonknight,” Jon would call out, and Robb would shout back, “Well, I’m Florian the Fool!” Or Robb would say, “I’m the Young Dragon,” and Jon would reply, “I’m Ser Ryam Redwyne.”

That morning, he called it first. “I’m Lord of Winterfell!” he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, “You can’t be Lord of Winterfell. You’re bastard born. My lady mother says you can’t ever be the Lord of Winterfell.”

I thought I had forgotten that.  (Jon XII, ASOS)
 

That night, he dreamt […]
Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall, he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared.

The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. “I am the Lord of Winterfell!” Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. (Jon XII, ADWD)
 

...but you can see from his own thoughts just how much things would change if he knew that Robb wanted him to take up the role. It would be extremely difficult to deny his best friends (and brother/cousins) dying wish. Plus he would potentially be king rather than a Lord and not have to worry about Melisandre replacing the old gods.

[DarkSister1001]

3 minutes ago, Makk said:

The will is anything but meaningless to Jon. He is tempted but ultimately he doesn't take it, largely because of the Old gods and Melisandre, but also because he needs affirmation that he is a Stark and deserves it.

Every morning [Jon and Robb] had trained together, since they were big enough to walk; Snow and Stark, spinning and slashing about the wards of Winterfell, shouting and laughing, sometimes crying when there was no one else to see. They were not little boys when they fought but knights and mighty heroes. “I’m Prince Aemon the Dragonknight,” Jon would call out, and Robb would shout back, “Well, I’m Florian the Fool!” Or Robb would say, “I’m the Young Dragon,” and Jon would reply, “I’m Ser Ryam Redwyne.”

That morning, he called it first. “I’m Lord of Winterfell!” he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, “You can’t be Lord of Winterfell. You’re bastard born. My lady mother says you can’t ever be the Lord of Winterfell.”

I thought I had forgotten that.  (Jon XII, ASOS)
 

That night, he dreamt […]
Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall, he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared.

The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. “I am the Lord of Winterfell!” Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. (Jon XII, ADWD)
 

...but you can see from his own thoughts just how much things would change if he knew that Robb wanted him to take up the role. It would be extremely difficult to deny his best friends (and brother/cousins) dying wish. Plus he would potentially be king rather than a Lord and not have to worry about Melisandre replacing the old gods.

Precisely.  The bolded is a big thing for him.  I think when he comes to he'll have visited the crypts and know is parentage.  And adding Robb's blessing will only help him feel good about what he does next. 

[bent branch]

I believe the will was cached in the Hag's Mire. Here is a link to a post I made on this topic three years ago, if your interested.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/71689-can-someone-explain-robbs-will/&do=findComment&comment=3937581

[DarkSister1001]

10 minutes ago, bent branch said:

I believe the will was cached in the Hag's Mire. Here is a link to a post I made on this topic three years ago, if your interested.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/71689-can-someone-explain-robbs-will/&do=findComment&comment=3937581

That was awesome!  Nice job.

[Curled Finger]

In full support of the excellent reasons above for the importance of Robb's Will.  The other important reason is the Lords of The North are desperate for a Stark to rally around.   It doesn't appear that outside the hill clans Jon has had much luck or support from any of the lords who know he is a Stark bastard.    Perhaps this is because Jon's a bastard and perhaps it's because he already holds an important position in the North.   Robb proclaiming Jon king and making a deal to have him released from his NW vows may have been something the lords hadn't devised yet or even known possible.   (Honestly, even if Jon's release is just a command from the king I'm pretty sure the NW are compelled to observe it)  I think a few of them know at least Rickon is alive and we know a clansman knows Bran is alive.   And Howland Reed remains silent in his shifting castle.  Glover & Mormont haven't been heard from in what? a year? longer?

The Northern lords gathered in a dilapidated Winterfell to witness the marriage of Ramsay Bolton to a girl many of them know is not Arya Stark.   A proclamation of the sort Robb had in mind pretty much sets Jon up politically and allows the Northern lords open defiance of the Boltons.  That will is priceless, strategically speaking.    For the record, this could play out in exactly the same manner in the Riverlands as they took Robb as their king as well.   

[RainGhost]

I think Robb probably kept the will with him. He was pretty confident that he would win the battle at Moat Cailin but he knew he could die in the process, so would probably just have left the will with someone he trusted during the battle. The only other alternatives are sending it to Seagard or Riverrun. I don't think he would have sent it with Maege and Glover because it was too risky. 

Even if the will was destroyed, all 5 witnesses are currently still alive, so that could act as proof if they all say the same thing.

Either way, there's a good chance that Manderly will soon have Rickon, so the will will have little significance politically. It would probably give Jon respectability, though, so he could get the northern Lords on board with whatever he wants to do as Lord Commander.  

I think the bigger significance would be personal. I think Jon would be touched if he heard about the will and it would make him realise that Robb always considered him part of he pack, even if Jon always felt like an outsider. 

[Walder Waters]

I think Robb's will has become more important since we know that contrary to former theories Jeyne Westerling indeed is not pregnant.

[Nittanian]

18 hours ago, Raisin' Bran said:

What would you do with the will?

I think sending it with Maege makes the most sense. 

The plan was to set out for Moat Cailin (SP) after the wedding, and nothing is certain in battle. So he would need to place the will with someone who would not attack the Neck from the south.

Additionally, the will would be much more useful in the North rather than in the Riverlands, so giving it to a riverlord seems out of the question to me.

This leaves Glover and Mormont (and their respective parties) to carry the will with them. Perhaps I have made too many assumptions.

Robb's words in ASOS Catelyn V lead me to think he would not have given the will to Galbart or Maege.

Quote

"Go upriver flying my banner. The crannogmen will find you. I want two ships to double the chances of my message reaching Howland Reed. Lady Maege shall go on one, Galbart on the second." He turned to the two he'd named. "You'll carry letters for those lords of mine who remain in the north, but all the commands within will be false, in case you have the misfortune to be taken. If that happens, you must tell them that you were sailing for the north. Back to Bear Island, or for the Stony Shore."