Who knighted Aegon I?

[Walder Waters]

The World of Ice and Fire states in the chapter re Maegor I that he was knighted by his father, Aegon I, becoming the youngest knight in the realm at the age of six-and-ten.

However, who knighted Aegon I?

Ok, he was accepted as king, but only a knight can make a knight and I do not think that Aegon would usurp the authoritiy to knight somewhat on basis of his kingship alone and without himself having been knighted in proper Andal tradition before. Creating a stable realm requires to observe native traditions after all.

Do you think it might have been Manfred Hightower?

[Nittanian]

57 minutes ago, Walder Waters said:

Ok, he was accepted as king, but only a knight can make a knight and I do not think that Aegon would usurp the authoritiy to knight somewhat on basis of his kingship alone and without himself having been knighted in proper Andal tradition before. Creating a stable realm requires to observe native traditions after all.

This is from someone's recollection of a convention which included GRRM. So Spake Martin:

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To settle an old debate on EZBoard, any king can make a knight but any lord cannot. That lord must be a knight as well. So Baelor I could make knights but Eddard could not. George said the more important thing for kings is making lords. The problem is giving lands.

 

[Lord Varys]

In addition, if we assume the Conqueror was a knight, then every knight or lordly knight in his service - or perhaps even his own father, Lord Aerion, if he had been a knight - could have knighted Aegon. The Targaryens began honoring the Seven on Dragonstone shortly after they arrived on the island, and since we know Aegon had a master-at-arms at the castle by the time of the Conquest it is not unreasonable to assume that the whole chivalry thing took root there long before the Conquest.

We also know that Aegon and Visenya visited the Redwynes on the Arbor to go hawking in their youth, and made also a trip to Oldtown. There were plenty of opportunities to get knighted.

[Jaak]

Also Masseys and Bar Emmons of Massey´s Hook were sworn to Stormlands but more connected to Dragonstone, and they were Andal or long ago converted to Seven.

[Lemon of Lemonwood]

And there is always the possibility of being knighted in Oldtown by lord Hightower when he publicly converted to the Faith. Or any other knight in hand, but since lord Hightower opened the gates to him in such manner, I would suppose he would give him the honour of dubbing him a knight as a gesture of thanking, the same way Aerys II did with Tywin.

 

[Dorian Martell]

The High septon anointed Aegon with the seven oils after he arrived at Oldtown. 

[Lord Varys]

On 1.4.2016 at 11:55 AM, Lemon of Lemonwood said:

And there is always the possibility of being knighted in Oldtown by lord Hightower when he publicly converted to the Faith. Or any other knight in hand, but since lord Hightower opened the gates to him in such manner, I would suppose he would give him the honour of dubbing him a knight as a gesture of thanking, the same way Aerys II did with Tywin.

 

Aegon the Conqueror never publicly converted to the Faith. He was raised in the Faith - at least to the degree in which the Targaryens on Dragonstone in his day practiced the Faith - and subsequently there was no need for a conversion. However, we know that the Conqueror was never considered to be a pious man. But that doesn't mean he wasn't raised in the Faith. It just means he didn't give a damn about the religion he was brought up in for whatever reason - Tyrion was also brought up in the Faith and is effectively an atheist/non-religious as an adult despite the fact that he went through a religious phase in his youth.

There was already a sept on Dragonstone prior to the Conquest, and we know that Aegon had a master-of-arms prior to the Conquest, making it exceedingly likely that Lord Aerion's children were all brought up more or less in the same manner as their lordly counterparts in the Stormlands or the Riverlands.

In fact, it seems as if the Targaryens publicly converted to the Faith of the Andals shortly after they permanently settled on Dragonstone. We know that the idols of the Seven in the castle sept of Dragonstone were made from the wood of the ships that carried Lord Aenar and the other Targaryens to Dragonstone, suggesting that they could not have waited all that long with that whole thing. I assume those idols were carved either during the reign of Aenar the Exile himself, or during the joined rule of Gaemon the Glorious and Daenys the Dreamer.

[Lemon of Lemonwood]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

In fact, it seems as if the Targaryens publicly converted to the Faith of the Andals shortly after they permanently settled on Dragonstone. We know that the idols of the Seven in the castle sept of Dragonstone were made from the wood of the ships that carried Lord Aenar and the other Targaryens to Dragonstone, suggesting that they could not have waited all that long with that whole thing. I assume those idols were carved either during the reign of Aenar the Exile himself, or during the joined rule of Gaemon the Glorious and Daenys the Dreamer.

There was already a sept on Dragonstone prior to the Conquest, and we know that Aegon had a master-of-arms prior to the Conquest, making it exceedingly likely that Lord Aerion's children were all brought up more or less in the same manner as their lordly counterparts in the Stormlands or the Riverlands.

It could be so,since there is the story of Aegon praying the night before he launched his campaign and the tradition that the idols of the Seven were from the masts of the ships that carried the first Targaryens to Dragonstone .However,this story always stroke me as a bit of apocryphical later tradition.Not that the sept couldn't be built before the Conquest,but firstly the Conqueror had a Valyrian style polygamous marriage  and then Visenya is said to have conducted Maegor's marriage to Alys Harroway in the Valyrian fashion, so they must have had some teachings on that faith as children.

Perhaps the tradition concerning the sept started after the Faith Militant uprising to project a more Faith-friendly profile for the Targaryen dynasty. It wouldn't strike me as strange if Jaehaerys or Barth produced those carvings and said "Lo and behold,Maegor was an anomaly,we Targaryens were always Seven-fearing folk".Afteall the nobility that most likely had access of the Dragonstone court were either not that pious or had Valyrian origins,I doubt there would be many that bothered to visit the sept,let alone keep an exact account of what it looked like.

As for the master-at-arms, Quenton Quoherys was of Valyrian origins, so again ,he might have been a knight or he might not, we have no definite proof.I would also have as candidates his Velaryon cousins (more likely to be in the faith of the Seven), a Celtygar, a Sunglass,why even a Stormlander after the war with Volantis.

My argument for lord Hightower or some other notable lord is mostly grounded on matters of propaganda and the founding of a royal dynasty in as glorious circumstances as possible.

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But that doesn't mean he wasn't raised in the Faith. It just means he didn't give a damn about the religion he was brought up in for whatever reason - Tyrion was also brought up in the Faith and is effectively an atheist/non-religious as an adult despite the fact that he went through a religious phase in his youth.

On that much we pretty much agree.I see him as an atheist at heart,using each religion for his own ends. 

6 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

The High septon anointed Aegon with the seven oils after he arrived at Oldtown. 

I believe this is a standard in every coronation, not neccessarily a dubbing.For example,in TPATQ:

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With the High Septon in Oldtown, too old and frail to journey to King’s Landing, it fell to Septon Eustace to anoint King Aegon’s brow with holy oils, and bless him in the seven names of god

 

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Lemon of Lemonwood said:

It could be so,since there is the story of Aegon praying the night before he launched his campaign and the tradition that the idols of the Seven were from the masts of the ships that carried the first Targaryens to Dragonstone .However,this story always stroke me as a bit of apocryphical later tradition.Not that the sept couldn't be built before the Conquest,but firstly the Conqueror had a Valyrian style polygamous marriage  and then Visenya is said to have conducted Maegor's marriage to Alys Harroway in the Valyrian fashion, so they must have had some teachings on that faith as children.

Perhaps the tradition concerning the sept started after the Faith Militant uprising to project a more Faith-friendly profile for the Targaryen dynasty. It wouldn't strike me as strange if Jaehaerys or Barth produced those carvings and said "Lo and behold,Maegor was an anomaly,we Targaryens were always Seven-fearing folk".Afteall the nobility that most likely had access of the Dragonstone court were either not that pious or had Valyrian origins,I doubt there would be many that bothered to visit the sept,let alone keep an exact account of what it looked like.

As for the master-at-arms, Quenton Quoherys was of Valyrian origins, so again ,he might have been a knight or he might not, we have no definite proof.I would also have as candidates his Velaryon cousins (more likely to be in the faith of the Seven), a Celtygar, a Sunglass,why even a Stormlander after the war with Volantis.

My argument for lord Hightower or some other notable lord is mostly grounded on matters of propaganda and the founding of a royal dynasty in as glorious circumstances as possible.

On that much we pretty much agree.I see him as an atheist at heart,using each religion for his own ends. 

Well, considering that those idols on Dragonstone were apparently very costly and elaborated as well as not that old (only 350-400 years) I don't think it likely they were made at a later date with a legend only purporting the story they were made from the Targaryen ships.

The fact that remnants of the Valyrian tradition are still alive in the days of Aenys I and Maegor I isn't very surprising, either. One would assume that the Targaryens on Dragonstone followed the traditional dragonlord policies regarding religion in their new domain - they were religiously tolerant and even actively financed the building of a sept in their new castle to make their subjects happy and establish good relations with their nearby Westerosi neighbors who followed the Seven.

But this doesn't mean they shed the atheism which was, apparently, the dominant world view among the Valyrian elite.

Whether matrimony was a religious or a secular matter in Valyria isn't clear, either. My personal guess is that back in the Freehold the state was the deciding factor because it would have been the institution making laws gathering inheritance and stuff. But it could still be that matrimony was 'holy' in a sense different from the strictly religious interpretation of marriage - say, the dragonlords had special ceremonies conducted by their own family members for their own marriages without the whole thing actually being a religious ceremony in the sense of a marriage conducted by a septon.

If that was the case then the Targaryens on Dragonstone could have married the dragonlord way down until the Conquest without at the same time following a specific Valyrian religion in opposition to paying lip service to the Faith.

But after the Conquest Aegon I was the only Targaryen king who had to defer to the Faith because he had failed to break the back of the Faith Militant. Prince Aenys and Prince Maegor both must have had marriages conducted by the Faith. The fact that no septon was willing to marry Maegor to Alys Harroway later on makes it unlikely that Aegon I found a septon to marry him to Visenya and Rhaenys, but not completely impossible. Back then the Targaryen kingdom was a fringe kingdom outside the direct oversight of the High Septon and technically Aegon might have been able to pay off some septon to do that because such a marriage wouldn't be considered valid in the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros anyway. But later on the Faith intended to end Targaryen incest and polygamy, not to mention that Maegor was actually married to the High Septon's own niece. The idea that there were many septons in Westeros willing to provoke the wrath of their head by marrying Maegor to a second wife doesn't make much sense. Any such septon would have to face severe repercussions from the High Septon, the Hightowers, and, possibly, even King Aenys I himself.

Jaehaerys I and all the Targaryen kings up to Baelor the Blessed don't seem to have been very religious. Septon Barth was a septon but his orthodoxy was apparently questioned by the High Septon and the Most Devout, suggesting that Barth and Jaehaerys I weren't exactly pious fools. Yeah, he handed over two of his daughters to the Faith but that was more a way to keep the number of Targaryen descendants in check than it reveals his pious nature.

Viserys I and Prince Daemon don't appear to be pious, either, and neither do Rhaenyra, Alicent's children, or Aegon III and Viserys II. Baelor the Blessed clearly was an asset for the Faith, pushing religion more into the royal household (we have Princess Rhaena becoming a septa, and Queen Naerys desperately trying to get permission to join a religious order). Daeron II apparently also get along well with representatives of the Faith.

The master-of-arms thing isn't proof that Aegon was a knight, of course, more that the chivalric culture of Westeros had by that time spread to Dragonstone from the mainland. Hell, it could even mean that the Targaryens were prone to conduct tourneys on Dragonstone (and the Velaryons on Driftmark). We know they grew rich from the trade they controlled so this is certainly not unlikely.

But if Aegon wasn't knighted before the Conquest it is unlikely he was ever knighted at all. If he had been knighted during the Conquest Gyldayn most likely would have told us, and since we know that a king can make knights regardless whether he is a knight or not it really makes no matter. By the time Aegon donned his crown and proclaimed himself king he could not gain any prestige by allowing some guy to knight him. That would have put him in an inferior position. Aegon was a warrior-king who conquered himself his kingdom. He had to appear strong and in control at all times.

[SeanF]

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, considering that those idols on Dragonstone were apparently very costly and elaborated as well as not that old (only 350-400 years) I don't think it likely they were made at a later date with a legend only purporting the story they were made from the Targaryen ships.

The fact that remnants of the Valyrian tradition are still alive in the days of Aenys I and Maegor I isn't very surprising, either. One would assume that the Targaryens on Dragonstone followed the traditional dragonlord policies regarding religion in their new domain - they were religiously tolerant and even actively financed the building of a sept in their new castle to make their subjects happy and establish good relations with their nearby Westerosi neighbors who followed the Seven.

But this doesn't mean they shed the atheism which was, apparently, the dominant world view among the Valyrian elite.

Whether matrimony was a religious or a secular matter in Valyria isn't clear, either. My personal guess is that back in the Freehold the state was the deciding factor because it would have been the institution making laws gathering inheritance and stuff. But it could still be that matrimony was 'holy' in a sense different from the strictly religious interpretation of marriage - say, the dragonlords had special ceremonies conducted by their own family members for their own marriages without the whole thing actually being a religious ceremony in the sense of a marriage conducted by a septon.

If that was the case then the Targaryens on Dragonstone could have married the dragonlord way down until the Conquest without at the same time following a specific Valyrian religion in opposition to paying lip service to the Faith.

But after the Conquest Aegon I was the only Targaryen king who had to defer to the Faith because he had failed to break the back of the Faith Militant. Prince Aenys and Prince Maegor both must have had marriages conducted by the Faith. The fact that no septon was willing to marry Maegor to Alys Harroway later on makes it unlikely that Aegon I found a septon to marry him to Visenya and Rhaenys, but not completely impossible. Back then the Targaryen kingdom was a fringe kingdom outside the direct oversight of the High Septon and technically Aegon might have been able to pay off some septon to do that because such a marriage wouldn't be considered valid in the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros anyway. But later on the Faith intended to end Targaryen incest and polygamy, not to mention that Maegor was actually married to the High Septon's own niece. The idea that there were many septons in Westeros willing to provoke the wrath of their head by marrying Maegor to a second wife doesn't make much sense. Any such septon would have to face severe repercussions from the High Septon, the Hightowers, and, possibly, even King Aenys I himself.

Jaehaerys I and all the Targaryen kings up to Baelor the Blessed don't seem to have been very religious. Septon Barth was a septon but his orthodoxy was apparently questioned by the High Septon and the Most Devout, suggesting that Barth and Jaehaerys I weren't exactly pious fools. Yeah, he handed over two of his daughters to the Faith but that was more a way to keep the number of Targaryen descendants in check than it reveals his pious nature.

Viserys I and Prince Daemon don't appear to be pious, either, and neither do Rhaenyra, Alicent's children, or Aegon III and Viserys II. Baelor the Blessed clearly was an asset for the Faith, pushing religion more into the royal household (we have Princess Rhaena becoming a septa, and Queen Naerys desperately trying to get permission to join a religious order). Daeron II apparently also get along well with representatives of the Faith.

The master-of-arms thing isn't proof that Aegon was a knight, of course, more that the chivalric culture of Westeros had by that time spread to Dragonstone from the mainland. Hell, it could even mean that the Targaryens were prone to conduct tourneys on Dragonstone (and the Velaryons on Driftmark). We know they grew rich from the trade they controlled so this is certainly not unlikely.

But if Aegon wasn't knighted before the Conquest it is unlikely he was ever knighted at all. If he had been knighted during the Conquest Gyldayn most likely would have told us, and since we know that a king can make knights regardless whether he is a knight or not it really makes no matter. By the time Aegon donned his crown and proclaimed himself king he could not gain any prestige by allowing some guy to knight him. That would have put him in an inferior position. Aegon was a warrior-king who conquered himself his kingdom. He had to appear strong and in control at all times.

I'm straying off topic, but I'm intrigued at the way Visenya conducted a wedding ceremony, for Maegor and his second wife, according to Valyrian custom with "fire and blood".  What did that entail?  Some form of ritual human sacrifice?  Presumably, it must have been a secular ceremony involving some form of sorcery.

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I'm straying off topic, but I'm intrigued at the way Visenya conducted a wedding ceremony, for Maegor and his second wife, according to Valyrian custom with "fire and blood".  What did that entail?  Some form of ritual human sacrifice?  Presumably, it must have been a secular ceremony involving some form of sorcery.

I really don't know. Gyldayn's account of the whole event in 'The Sons of the Dragon' is a little bit longer than what Yandel tells us, but it is not illuminating. We don't know what Visenya did there, no what it means to be married by 'fire and blood'. My best guess is that this is some sort of magical ceremony/ritual closer to the marriage Melisandre conducts for Alys Karstark and Sigorn than to any other we have as of yet seen in the series.

But that comparison doesn't shed light on the 'blood part' of the ceremony. Perhaps it is something as trivial as the spouses mingling their blood to symbolize that they now have become one? But then, with incestuous marriages being the common practice in Valyria - especially among the dragonlords - there would be little symbolic meaning to the blood of the spouses. Both usually would be closely related to each other anyway.

But then, at times even the dragonlords would have entered into (political) marriages outside the own family or even outside the Freehold (if a Yi Tish emperor can marry a female dragonlord, a Yi Tish princess certainly could also marry into the topmost dragonlord family) and perhaps such a marriage involved some sort of blood magic ritual during which a foreigner is sort of adopted in the elite circle of the dragonlords. But that's just speculation.

Such a thing wouldn't have been necessary for the dragonlord scion Alyssa Velaryon, Prince Aenys' wife, and Maegor would have married Ceryse Hightower in a Faith ceremony, anyway, but the Harroways clearly were quite ambitious with the Alys match, not to mention that the whole thing most likely was also a love match on Maegor's part. I mean, the man did not take the Faith and the Hightowers head-on with the whole thing, but also his own brother the king. And that was at a time when everything was going fine for Maegor. He was Hand of the King, and ruling the Realm in harmony with his brother. He had all the power and prestige he could wish for.

In light of Aenys' amiable personality Maegor's exile comes as a big surprise, and Maegor could easily have lost everything in the process. Aenys I could have take his head for this insult, and if Visenya had predeceased Aenys Maegor most likely would have never returned to Westeros - not to mention that he would certainly have never ruled as king.

[Lemon of Lemonwood]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The master-of-arms thing isn't proof that Aegon was a knight, of course, more that the chivalric culture of Westeros had by that time spread to Dragonstone from the mainland.

I was under the impression that the master-at-arm in a castle is the supervisor of martial training and thus regardless of the lord's religion, but I might aswell be mistaken. 

7 hours ago, SeanF said:

But if Aegon wasn't knighted before the Conquest it is unlikely he was ever knighted at all. If he had been knighted during the Conquest Gyldayn most likely would have told us, and since we know that a king can make knights regardless whether he is a knight or not it really makes no matter. By the time Aegon donned his crown and proclaimed himself king he could not gain any prestige by allowing some guy to knight him.

Yes,I have forgotten that SSM. Still,on prestige, this is lord Hightower, head of one of the oldest and most proud and powerful houses of Westeros,who also practically reeted him with open arms (by the way,rereading of the possible visit of Aegon in the Citaddel in his youth, the whole story of the surrender thanks to the vision by the Crone seems a little fishy).

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Gyldayn's account of the whole event in 'The Sons of the Dragon' is a little bit longer than what Yandel tells us, but it is not illuminating.

Is there a complete recording or wtitten version of the readings? 

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Jaehaerys I and all the Targaryen kings up to Baelor the Blessed don't seem to have been very religious. Septon Barth was a septon but his orthodoxy was apparently questioned by the High Septon and the Most Devout, suggesting that Barth and Jaehaerys I weren't exactly pious fools. Yeah, he handed over two of his daughters to the Faith but that was more a way to keep the number of Targaryen descendants in check than it reveals his pious nature.

Definitely they weren't that pious, but Jaehaerys and Barth -especially Barth-were too clever to be above some spin-doctoring. Afterall, some gilded beard and a few pearls are not such an expense for a king. Even in the Middle afes they knew how to make fake antiques (see the fake relic industry). 

[Lord Varys]

20 hours ago, Lemon of Lemonwood said:

I was under the impression that the master-at-arm in a castle is the supervisor of martial training and thus regardless of the lord's religion, but I might aswell be mistaken.

Is there a complete recording or wtitten version of the readings? 

Definitely they weren't that pious, but Jaehaerys and Barth -especially Barth-were too clever to be above some spin-doctoring. Afterall, some gilded beard and a few pearls are not such an expense for a king. Even in the Middle afes they knew how to make fake antiques (see the fake relic industry). 

Master-of-arms is the Westerosi name of the guy who trains the male nobles in the castle at arms, yes, and that happens regardless of religion. But the presence of such a guy on Dragonstone before the Conquest effectively is confirmation that the Targaryens weren't culturally not that apart from the Westerosi kingdoms - meaning that it was perfectly okay for a man like Aegon to be trained at arms as if he was a knight. And therefore it is not strange to assume that he actually was a knight before the Conquest.

Unlike Ned Stark - who could easily have been knighted by Jon Arryn or Robert Baratheon - Aegon Targaryen had no good reason to reject the honor of a knighthood as he wasn't following a religion that prevented him from standing vigil in a sept.

We don't have a transcript of 'The Sons of the Dragon' but we have a pretty good summary of the section George read in London. That covers the youth of the princes as well as the entirety of the reign of Aenys I. And Maegor's marriage to Alys Harroway simply isn't described in detail. We learn that Visenya wed them the Valyrian way, 'by blood and fire' but what that actually means is completely unclear.

As to the piety of Jaehaerys I/Barth:

I brought that up because I really don't think that only honestly pious kings would have gone to great lengths to create a legend around the idols of the Seven on Dragonstone. Dragonstone is the private castle of the royal family. From the days of Jaehaerys I the court would have resided exclusively in KL, and therefore the king would only have had the opportunity to show off his great relics if he had brought the idols to KL to present them in the castle sept of the Red Keep, or something like that. But that didn't happen. Therefore I doubt that Jaehaerys I did something like that.

In addition, it is quite clear that the power of the Faith was pretty much broken since the days of Jaehaerys I. The man had little reason to suck up to the Faith the way Aegon I and Aenys I were forced to do.