Hoster Tully

[Rob Storm]

It is my personal opinion that Hoster Tully was one of the wisest and most forward thinking lords we have heard about in ASOIAF.  As a lord paramount of most vulnerable kingdom, the Riverlands, he worked to forge alliances in every direction: Lysa-Jaime (declined), Blackfish - Redwyne (declined), Stark- Cat (Accepted), Lysa - Lon Arryn accepted.

He built up his house in strength and was a major player in the downfall of Targs.  So I ask this, as someone who put so much effort and work into building the alliances why then was he content in leaving his heir wifeless for years after Robert's rebellion?  Did he feel he was safe because of his previously forged alliances and allowed Edmure to make his own choices?  The Blackfish refusal caused a divide but there was no such divide between Edmure and Hoster.  Is that just simple father-son vs brother-brother relationships?  

Just always seems odd he wouldn't have expedited the future of his direct house with multiple heirs to Edmure ASAP.  (I understand Edmure's marriage is a necessary plot line, but he was too conscious of alliances not to make the future of his house a priority)

[Lady Lia]

My guess is that Edmure wasn't interested, and Hoster didn't want to push him for fear of damaging their relationship as had happened with the Blackfish (and in a different way Lysa). Edmure wasn't outrageously old to be still unmarried, and Catelyn had spare sons who could have inherited in a pinch.

[True.Kitn902]

Plenty of heirs and his relationship with his son was more important I assume.

[WolfgangII]

2 hours ago, Lady Lia said:

My guess is that Edmure wasn't interested, and Hoster didn't want to push him for fear of damaging their relationship as had happened with the Blackfish (and in a different way Lysa). Edmure wasn't outrageously old to be still unmarried, and Catelyn had spare sons who could have inherited in a pinch.

I don't want to hijack your thread OP, but this part really interest me. To answer yout question: I think the Blackfish incident could have influenced Hoster in not to pushed Edmure into marriage, but let's we not forget, we really didn't have any information about this. Maybe Edmure and Hoster did discuss the former single-ness, but Edmure never expressed to anyone.

Now, about Lady Lia said: Let's assume Edmure and Blackfish die at the begining of the WOT5K, so the only remaining main branch Tully men are: Robb, Bran, Rickon and Sweetrobin. Robb and Sweetrobin are both (at this time) lords of their houses, so we only have Bran and Rickon. What happens if Bran is named Lord Tully of Riverrun and Robb dies heirless? Does Rickon gets Winterfell? Could Bran switch lordship, assuming he still is the eldest son of Eddard Stark? Could Bran join the two kingdoms and rule the Riverlands from Winterfell (something Robb, as King of the North and Riverlands, intended to do)?

[Curled Finger]

I wondered why Hoster didn't just remarry himself.  But yes, it does seem that he didn't want to suffer a falling out with Edmure like he did with the Backfish. 

[sarah.jenice]

This seems to come up a lot with Edmure and the other unmarried heirs of important noble houses, and I think it really just comes down to them needing to be single during the events in the books. Edmure for the Frey match, Willas Tyrell/Tyrion Lannister for the Sansa match, Renly Baratheon for the original Margaery Tyrell match, Arianne Martell for a potential Aegon match, etc. 

It's also been pointed out that it is not as important for male heirs to marry young as there isn't an age limit on male fertility. Maybe Hoster was holding out for a really important alliance through Edmure and then got too sick to continue making arrangements. Edmure himself certainly didn't seem to be in a rush.

[Luna Longmoon]

Technically, he tried to set up edmure with arrianne in dorne but Doran stopped that plan.

 

[John Suburbs]

And it's not like there has been a wealth of maidens worthy of become the Lady of Riverrun, either. Sure, the Freys have a bunch, but they are a vassal house. After the rebellion, the only major house with a suitable maiden was Lannister, and nobody else comes along until Margaery. So my guess is that Hoster was holding out to see if he could link up to the Tyrells, or barring that maybe a match with Shireen or even Sansa. At the very least, a Redwyne or a Hightower.

The other unusual thing about Hoster is that he is not that old when he dies -- mid-60s maybe, about the same age as Barristan Selmy. That's not exactly young by Westerosi standards, but it's nowhere near what Catelyn makes him seem at the end -- stick-thin, pale-skinned, blue-veined and delirious. Even Maester Aemon doesn't look that bad. So something was getting at him, probably cancer, but maybe poison...?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

5 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

And it's not like there has been a wealth of maidens worthy of become the Lady of Riverrun, either. Sure, the Freys have a bunch, but they are a vassal house. After the rebellion, the only major house with a suitable maiden was Lannister, and nobody else comes along until Margaery. So my guess is that Hoster was holding out to see if he could link up to the Tyrells, or barring that maybe a match with Shireen or even Sansa. At the very least, a Redwyne or a Hightower.

What does that matter? If you look at the Lannister and Stark family trees from the World book you can see the vast majority of marriages by Overlords are to their vassals. Jon Arryns first wife was a vassal, his brother and sister both married vassals. Hoster, Mace (and his father) and Steffon all married daughters of their vassals.

[Lady Lia]

On 3/31/2016 at 7:01 PM, WolfgangII said:

Now, about Lady Lia said: Let's assume Edmure and Blackfish die at the begining of the WOT5K, so the only remaining main branch Tully men are: Robb, Bran, Rickon and Sweetrobin. Robb and Sweetrobin are both (at this time) lords of their houses, so we only have Bran and Rickon. What happens if Bran is named Lord Tully of Riverrun and Robb dies heirless? Does Rickon gets Winterfell? Could Bran switch lordship, assuming he still is the eldest son of Eddard Stark? Could Bran join the two kingdoms and rule the Riverlands from Winterfell (something Robb, as King of the North and Riverlands, intended to do)?

In peacetime, I'd imagine that (assuming Lords Tully and Stark died without indicating a preferred heir) the king would decide after taking the opinions of the major lords of each region into account. In the middle of a multi-player civil war, it's all going to be down to who has the biggest army and feels strongly enough to use it.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

He might had been smart but he was one of the worst fathers in the series. What he did to his daughter was a crime and he had paid for that.

[RainGhost]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

And it's not like there has been a wealth of maidens worthy of become the Lady of Riverrun, either. Sure, the Freys have a bunch, but they are a vassal house. After the rebellion, the only major house with a suitable maiden was Lannister, and nobody else comes along until Margaery. So my guess is that Hoster was holding out to see if he could link up to the Tyrells, or barring that maybe a match with Shireen or even Sansa. At the very least, a Redwyne or a Hightower.

I'd agree with this. Seeing as his strategy with Brynden, Cat and Lysa was to marry them off to powerful Houses in other regions, I imagine he was planning something similar for Edmure but just hadn't found the right match yet. After all, Edmure, as the heir, was the most important, so it's not surprising he held out so long. And Edmure was still young, so there was no rush.

[John Suburbs]

3 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

What does that matter? If you look at the Lannister and Stark family trees from the World book you can see the vast majority of marriages by Overlords are to their vassals. Jon Arryns first wife was a vassal, his brother and sister both married vassals. Hoster, Mace (and his father) and Steffon all married daughters of their vassals.

It's not a requirement, but Hoster wed his two daughters to major houses in order to shore up political alliances. It would seem that before he married his son off to a house that was already sworn to Riverrun, he would hold out for the best possible match.

And besides, there are vassals and there are vassals, and I don't think it's any secret what Hoster thought of the Freys, particularly after they left him out to dry on the Trident.