No Gods, No Masters Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 I posted this in response to a theory about Tyrion being a "manticore," the son of Oberyn Martell and Joanna Lannister, so that is the context for the opening, but I really think it's correct and I didn't see it elsewhere, so I wanted to create a fresh post for discussion about it. I edited the wording slightly, because it was awkward out of context, but you can see the original post here. Tyrion is referred to repeatedly as a "gargoyle," because "gargoyle" is synonymous with "chimera" (in architectural terms), but it is not meant to suggest that he is a descendant of Oberyn (which brings unnecessary, extraneous characters into the parentage equation). This double entendre is emphasized because chimerism is also a genetic condition where, in the womb, one twin absorbs the other, and so one person is born with two sets of DNA. And guess what. It is possible for twins to have different fathers. I believe that Tyrion is the son of Tywin and Joanna, but he is a genetic chimera who absorbed a twin, who was the son or daughter of Aerys and Joanna, and so Tyrion has Targaryan DNA as well. I think it's quite indisputable that he has Targaryan blood, since he has had reoccurring dreams of dragons since he was a child. Now, it would be fair to ask "If he has Targaryan blood, why shouldn't he just be the son of Aerys and Joanna? Surely that's the simplest explanation." Well, there are a few reasons why I think not: - First of all, as I mentioned, they refer to him as a "gargoyle" numerous times (and allude to lion gargoyles specifically in one of Bran's dreams), and as you mentioned, the manticore imagery is very real. You could argue that these "gargoyle" mentions are simply references to greyscale, but the manticore imagery you bring up is very real (I hadn't thought about the crossbow connecting with the manticore's stinger-- brilliant point). Given that both gargoyles and manticores are types of chimeras, but manticores are not gargoyles, I think this is an extremely suggestive reference to genetic chimerism. - Second, having two different colored eyes is a symptom of chimerism. This is not the only possible cause, by any means, but come on-- in context, I think it's pretty significant. - Third is a bit more complicated, and has to do with Tywin, as Tyrion's father. Tywin's hypocrisy is of great literary significance. For one, Tywin is so disgusted by the idea of Jamie and Cersei's incest that he is in denial until his death-- he refuses to see the reality right in front of him. However, the love of Tywin's life, Joanna, was his first cousin. And, though a cousin-cousin relationship is considerably less direct than a brother-sister relationship, it is still incestuous, and according to a review of 48 studies, cousin-cousin relationships are twice as likely to produce birth defects in their children than average, non-incestuous relationships. This is very important! Tywin blames Tyrion for killing Joanna, and despises him for being a dwarf, but it may very well be Tywin's own incestuous relationship with Joanna that caused Tyrion's dwarfism, which is most likely the cause of the birthing complications that killed her. And at the same time, this was the type of relationship that disgusted him in his own children. If this is correct, then Tywin, himself, caused everything he blames Tyrion for, caused the events that killed the love of his life, and participated in the kind of relationship that he felt humiliated to even consider could be true of his children. And this is a man to whom family is everything. Consider how powerful this set of circumstances is, in literary terms-- Martin really outdid himself here. And it only works so perfectly if Tywin is Tyrion's father. But, given genetic chimerism, that is not mutually exclusive with the Targaryan genes that account for his dragon dreams. We can have our cake and eat it too. Credit for originally introducing the idea of genetic chimerism goes to YouTube user Ola Gawe, who commented on this Preston Jacobs video, which Preston Jacobs responded to here. Great thinking Ola Gawe and Preston Jacobs! I'd love to hear people's thoughts about the dynamics I mentioned regarding Tywin's familial relationships, in addition to the (T+J)+(A+J)=T Theory. I think that this hypocrisy is truly the most important aspect of his character. Edit: To those who are saying they don't believe it could ever be revealed to Tyrion-- you're right. But I think that it's being implied to readers. It explains aspects of Tyrion's character that A+J=T does not, but I agree 100% that, if anything, it will only be his Targaryan blood that is actually revealed to Tyrion (or other characters). However, I don't think that his difficult colored eyes or the references to gargoyles (i.e. chimeras) are a coincidence. GRRM can be very subtle in informing readers of things that characters themselves do not understand. Prophecies are the most obvious example-- the fruition of which will be heavily implied, in most cases, but still left to the readers' interpretation. Thanks for good input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterfellbeyondthewall Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 I see your point and I do believe you are on to something there, the only thing that's bugging me is that I don't see Tyrion coming to that realization himself. Considering the ruling medical situation at that time he would never be able to recognize his condition as something out of the ordinary, you know? So it might be that you're completely right but how are they to find out? What role does that play in the novels, if it wont ever be revealed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 7 hours ago, No Gods, No Masters said: I posted this in response to a theory about Tyrion being a "manticore," the son of Oberyn Martell and Joanna Lannister, so that is the context for the opening, but I really think it's correct and I didn't see it elsewhere, so I wanted to create a fresh post for discussion about it. I edited the wording slightly, because it was awkward out of context, but you can see the original post here. Tyrion is referred to repeatedly as a "stone lion" and a "gargoyle," because "gargoyle" is synonymous with "chimera" (in architectural terms), but it is not meant to suggest that he is a descendant of Oberyn (which brings unnecessary, extraneous characters into the parentage equation). This double entendre is emphasized because chimerism is also a genetic condition where, in the womb, one twin absorbs the other, and so one person is born with two sets of DNA. And guess what. It is possible for twins to have different fathers. I believe that Tyrion is the son of Tywin and Joanna, but he is a genetic chimera who absorbed a twin, who was the son or daughter of Aerys and Joanna, and so Tyrion has Targaryan DNA as well. I think it's quite indisputable that he has Targaryan blood, since he has had dragon dreams since he was a child. Now, it would be fair to ask "If he has Targaryan blood, why shouldn't he just be the son of Aerys and Joanna? Surely that's the simplest explanation." Well, there are a few reasons why I think not: - First of all, as I mentioned, they refer to him as a "gargoyle" and a "stone lion" numerous times, and as you mentioned, the manticore imagery is very real. You could argue that these "stone lion" and "gargoyle" mentions are simply references to greyscale, but the manticore imagery you bring up is very real (I hadn't thought about the crossbow connecting with the manticore's stinger-- brilliant point). Given that both gargoyles and manticores are types of chimeras, but manticores are not gargoyles, I think this is an extremely suggestive reference to genetic chimerism. - Second, having two different colored eyes is a symptom of chimerism. This is not the only possible cause, by any means, but come on-- in context, I think it's pretty significant. - Third is a bit more complicated, and has to do with Tywin, as Tyrion's father. Tywin's hypocrisy is of great literary significance. For one, Tywin is so disgusted by the idea of Jamie and Cersei's incest that he is in denial until his death-- he refuses to see the reality right in front of him. However, the love of Tywin's life, Joanna, was his first cousin. And, though a cousin-cousin relationship is considerably less direct than a brother-sister relationship, it is still incestuous, and according to a review of 48 studies, cousin-cousin relationships are twice as likely to produce birth defects in their children than average, non-incestuous relationships. This is very important! Tywin blames Tyrion for killing Joanna, and despises him for being a dwarf, but it may very well be Tywin's own incestuous relationship with Joanna that caused Tyrion's dwarfism, which is most likely the cause of the birthing complications that killed her. And at the same time, this was the type of relationship that disgusted him in his own children. If this is correct, then Tywin, himself, caused everything he blames Tyrion for, caused the events that killed the love of his life, and participated in the kind of relationship that he felt humiliated to even consider could be true of his children. And this is a man to whom family is everything. Consider how powerful this set of circumstances is, in literary terms-- Martin really outdid himself here. And it only works so perfectly if Tywin is Tyrion's father. But, given genetic chimerism, that is not mutually exclusive with the Targaryan genes that account for his dragon dreams. We can have our cake and eat it too. Credit for originally introducing the idea of genetic chimerism goes to YouTube user Ola Gawe, who commented on this Preston Jacobs video, which Preston Jacobs responded to here. Great thinking Ola Gawe and Preston Jacobs! I'd love to hear people's thoughts about the dynamics I mentioned regarding Tywin's familial relationships, in addition to the (T+J)+(A+J)=T Theory. I think that this hypocrisy is truly the most important aspect of his character. Hey, this is something I hadn't read of before. At the moment I just have the one question though. Don't think me one of those nitpickers who only search for flaws in people's threads please because I'm not. I was just curious though if you had any quotes referring to Tyrion as a 'stone lion'. I can't recall reading that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Assuming that was the case, I can't imagine how a reveal could be possible. So: not only it isn't proven, it can't be proven. By the way, the trademarked Targaryen "dragon dreams" aren't just "dreams that have dragons in them", they're prophetic. Remember any prophetic dreams of Tyrion's? I don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrettyPig Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 I have long been of the opinion that Tyrion had a twin that he cannibalized in the womb - in the vein of Maelys the Monstrous - due to the physical traits you listed in the OP along with Tyrion's dream of his second head. Never extrapolated that to possible heteropaternal superfetation though, at least for Tyrion's conception. (Have discussed with a few folks around here the possibility of this applying to the mama direwolf that spawned all the Stark kids' puppies.) Interesting proposition....not sure how this could ever be verified in-series, really, but it's worth considering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snark of Winterfell Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 It's definitely interesting. My problem with it is that it is almost an impossible reveal. For that reason I am personally sticking with the basic A+J=T. I think it is going to have to come out that Tyrion is part Targ as an important plot device. With that said I think there are a lot of wink wink things that will never be revealed that GRRM puts out there, so it can be that. But we are never going to get the mixing of DNA explanation because there is no one who is qualified to reveal that to us. As far as Tywin's hypocrisy, I completely agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Hyle Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 11 hours ago, No Gods, No Masters said: I think it's quite indisputable that he has Targaryan blood, since he has had dragon dreams since he was a child. I started reading with interest, but you lost me there. I'm not ruling out the Tyrion/Targ theory by any means, but claiming it's proven because he dreamed about dragons is not how things are proven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Gods, No Masters Posted March 31, 2016 Author Share Posted March 31, 2016 5 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said: Hey, this is something I hadn't read of before. At the moment I just have the one question though. Don't think me one of those nitpickers who only search for flaws in people's threads please because I'm not. I was just curious though if you had any quotes referring to Tyrion as a 'stone lion'. I can't recall reading that. Oh man, it took a little searching, because you're right-- I shouldn't have used quotation marks, because it is not explicitly the phrase "stone lion." I was beginning to think I had just imagined this passage, but I found the quote I was referring to: Quote "Perhaps once they had been lions, but now they were twisted and grotesque. Bran could hear them whispering to each other in soft stone voices terrible to hear. He must not listen, he told himself, he must not hear, so long as he did not hear them he was safe. But when the gargoyles pulled themselves loose from the stone and padded down the side of the tower to where Bran clung, he knew he was not safe after all. 'I didn’t hear,' he wept as they came closer and closer, 'I didn’t, I didn’t.'" (AGOT, Bran, p. 239) And earlier in the same book: Quote "Tyrion Lannister was sitting on the ledge above the door to the Great Hall, looking for all the world like a gargoyle." (AGOT, Jon, p. 52) I believe there may be at least one other "gargoyle" mention, but that one came up as well when I searched for the stone lion passage. I'll edit my initial post, because you're right that the expression "stone lion" isn't used verbatim, but the idea is alluded to. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Gods, No Masters Posted March 31, 2016 Author Share Posted March 31, 2016 1 hour ago, Ser Hyle said: I started reading with interest, but you lost me there. I'm not ruling out the Tyrion/Targ theory by any means, but claiming it's proven because he dreamed about dragons is not how things are proven. Almost every Targaryan we know of has dragon dreams or dreams about dragons, and it is pretty well established that their dragon dreams are a factor that influences them to pull their crazy stunts in efforts to hatch dragons. I can think of many Targaryans who have dragon dreams, but can you think of a single character (besides Tyrion) who has dragon dreams, who we don't know to be a Targaryan? Dragon dreams alone aren't proof, certainly, but that's why I wrote an entire post which only mentions dragon dreams in one sentence. Haha. I think that's a very suggestive piece of evidence which, taken in combination with the other reasons I gave, strengthens the case. But you're certainly right that if I just posted "Tyrion has dragon dreams, so he's certainly a Targaryan," that would be a weak argument. But please, if you know of any non-Targaryan who has them (besides Tyrion), I'd be interested to know. If he is the only apparent exception to a seemingly uniform rule, then it seems likely that he is not, in fact, an exception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostyDornishman Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Have to agree with most of the posts above that, while this is an interesting idea that gives the Tywin-Tyrion relationship some new flavor, I don't see any way chimerism could be revealed (let alone described) by a single character in the books. The standard A+J=T could be revealed, sure, but that's because you just need someone to have knowledge of an affair. The chimerism requires someone to have intimate knowledge of Tyrion's embryonic development, or for Tyrion to suddenly remember absorbing his twin in utero, or something equally WTF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Gods, No Masters Posted March 31, 2016 Author Share Posted March 31, 2016 1 minute ago, FrostyDornishman said: Have to agree with most of the posts above that, while this is an interesting idea that gives the Tywin-Tyrion relationship some new flavor, I don't see any way chimerism could be revealed (let alone described) by a single character in the books. The standard A+J=T could be revealed, sure, but that's because you just need someone to have knowledge of an affair. The chimerism requires someone to have intimate knowledge of Tyrion's embryonic development, or for Tyrion to suddenly remember absorbing his twin in utero, or something equally WTF. Yeah-- you're absolutely right about this. I don't expect it to ever be explicitly mentioned or explained, but there are lots of things (especially regarding scientific ideas that people in this world don't understand or have the means of explain) that GRRM subtly implies for the readers. If anything, it will be revealed that Tyrion has Targaryan blood, but I can see absolutely no way for people in medieval times to know about a genetic condition. Hence implying it to readers through hints like the different colored eyes, the gargoyle references, etc.. And, to be clear, I do think it's conceivable that A+J will just equal T (or that Tyrion will end up believing it to be the case), but that does lose the explanation for his eyes and his dwarfism, as well as the irony of Tywin's incest causing his condition (and probably the death of Joanna). Even if it can only ever be hinted at, I think chimerism connects many more aspects of the situation, and (especially given what seem to be hints at it), I kind of doubt that Martin drops these hints by coincidence or accident. Especially when genetics do seem to be an important aspect of the world he has built. Perhaps there will be even stronger hints eventually, but we should never take for granted the subtlety of his writing-- this wouldn't be the first time that something significant was quietly implied, but never said outright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Gods, No Masters Posted March 31, 2016 Author Share Posted March 31, 2016 6 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said: Assuming that was the case, I can't imagine how a reveal could be possible. So: not only it isn't proven, it can't be proven. By the way, the trademarked Targaryen "dragon dreams" aren't just "dreams that have dragons in them", they're prophetic. Remember any prophetic dreams of Tyrion's? I don't. Edited, because you are correct about dragon dreams. However, can you name any non-Targaryan character who has recurring dreams about dragons? I still think this is highly suggestive; in addition to prophetic dreams, Targaryans do often dream of dragons, so it might be fitting for a part-Targaryan to dream of dragons. If there are non-Targaryans who regularly dream of dragons, then these dreams could be meaningless. I don't remember any though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostyDornishman Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 10 minutes ago, No Gods, No Masters said: I don't expect it to ever be explicitly mentioned or explained, but there are lots of things (especially regarding scientific ideas that people in this world don't understand or have the means of explain) that GRRM subtly implies for the readers. That's true. There are definitely a lot of details that stack up in favor of the theory. I wonder if that's the kind of thing GRRM will ever fully explain, or if he'll just keep it vague and let the readers interpret it how they will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Gods, No Masters Posted March 31, 2016 Author Share Posted March 31, 2016 10 minutes ago, FrostyDornishman said: That's true. There are definitely a lot of details that stack up in favor of the theory. I wonder if that's the kind of thing GRRM will ever fully explain, or if he'll just keep it vague and let the readers interpret it how they will. I can imagine him dropping some heavier hints, perhaps, but nah, there's no way to ever flat-out reveal this; even in the real world, chimerism was only discovered in humans as recently as 1953. Considering these people have been in a medieval age for thousands of years (which itself is pretty strange), they won't have the technology to discover something like this for a long time coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Hyle Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 1 hour ago, No Gods, No Masters said: Almost every Targaryan we know of has dragon dreams or dreams about dragons, and it is pretty well established that their dragon dreams are a factor that influences them to pull their crazy stunts in efforts to hatch dragons. I can think of many Targaryans who have dragon dreams, but can you think of a single character (besides Tyrion) who has dragon dreams, who we don't know to be a Targaryan? Dragon dreams alone aren't proof, certainly, but that's why I wrote an entire post which only mentions dragon dreams in one sentence. Haha. I think that's a very suggestive piece of evidence which, taken in combination with the other reasons I gave, strengthens the case. But you're certainly right that if I just posted "Tyrion has dragon dreams, so he's certainly a Targaryan," that would be a weak argument. But please, if you know of any non-Targaryan who has them (besides Tyrion), I'd be interested to know. If he is the only apparent exception to a seemingly uniform rule, then it seems likely that he is not, in fact, an exception. Fair enough. Still don't like misuse of absolutes like indisputable, but yes, Tyrion would be the only ostensibly non-Targ I can think of who has dreamed of dragons. Do you think Tyrion's dream he recalls to Ilyrio in Dance where he has two heads lends support to your chimera theory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostyDornishman Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 21 minutes ago, No Gods, No Masters said: I can imagine him dropping some heavier hints, perhaps, but nah, there's no way to ever flat-out reveal this I meant, maybe he'd be willing to talk about it in an interview or something once the books are done. I assume we'll still have lots of questions for him even then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 While I think its a clever way of looking at things, he is Tywins son and a Targ, I think your getting way to complicated for a book. There is no way this could ever come to light, so it would just be a guess that can never be confirmed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Gods, No Masters Posted April 7, 2016 Author Share Posted April 7, 2016 On 3/31/2016 at 3:32 PM, aryagonnakill#2 said: While I think its a clever way of looking at things, he is Tywins son and a Targ, I think your getting way to complicated for a book. There is no way this could ever come to light, so it would just be a guess that can never be confirmed. Fair enough, but there have been facts that have been verified by GRRM in interviews or Q&As without ever being said explicitly in the books themselves. There is no way that this will be verified in the novels, and there is no way GRRM will recognize this (if it's true) before the reveal that Tyrion has Valyrian blood (though I think that's definitely coming). BUT. I can absolutely imagine GRRM verifying an idea like chimerism after the fact, in some out-of-text medium, such as a Q&A or an e-mail from a fan, as he has already revealed details in such mediums before. The first example that comes to mind is that, when GRRM was asked whether the lemon tree in Dany's memory is a hint at details of her past, which conflict with her memories (and what Viserys told her about her childhood), GRRM would not get specific about the truth (since that reveal has not yet occurred), but he did say yes. The lemon tree does point to a discrepancy in her memory (as lemon trees don't grow in Braavos. I don't know how vague he'd be, or whether he'd deny or confirm it outright, if e-mailed about Tyrion and chimerism, but it seems as though he is very self-conscious about genetics throughout the books. Here's a link to an image of the e-mail about Dany's past and the lemon tree which I referred to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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