Hos the Hostage Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 House Bolton is a very old Northern House, dating back to the days when they used bronze weapons. It was the Andals who brought iron-working to Westeros. I do not know if they brough steel weapons, or simply iron weapons that later got improved to steel. Bronze weapons are of inferior quality when compared to steel, both metal-vs-metal and metal-vs-flesh. We assume that the Bolton words come from their habit of flaying the enemies. But could there be another reason for using those specific words - Our Blades Are Sharp? What if that was not a boast or a threat, but a simple fact - They had sharp blades, sharper than those used by other First Men. If so, it is possible that the Boltons had blades made of a special technology or a special material. The Boltons do not even have a Valyrian steel sword of their own (afaik), so there are less chances for them to have dragonsteel blades. Dragonglass on the other hand, Jon notes that the daggers he found in the cache (CoK) were sharper than steel. He also notes them to be brittle, but brittleness is not an issue for flaying purposes. Is it possible that the Children helped the Boltons as well, by giving them weapons to fight the enemy - maybe some Stark connection there? After all, Old Nan says the Night King was a Stark. So far, Boltons look like the 'villains' and Starks look like the 'protectors'. But history is written by winners, and House Stark has ruled the North for thousands of years. Ramsay is a monster, Roose could be a vampire (Bolt-On theories), but we cannot make unbiased assessments regarding right and wrong about the generations of these Northmen before the conquest. Could it be that the Boltons rivalry against Starks has a foundation where the Starks are the villains? This could be total tinfoil since there is zero evidence to make this line of speculation. Or this could be already discussed - if so, it would be of help if you post links to the older threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
house of dayne Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 the best surgical scalpels these days are made of obsidian, or dragonglass..the area around the dreadfort is a volcanic area with obsidian in abundance, one could assume...im sure historically, the boltons used obsidian to flay their victims . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarah.jenice Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Better than Flaying is Coming or We Love to Peel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Ours is the Gory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostyDornishman Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Blood and More Blood Unhinged, Unpeeled, Unbroken (skin) We Do Not Sew (up our victims) A Bolton Always Flays Their Pets I really don't think there's anything more to it than a threat. They were commanded to stop flaying a while ago, but reminding everyone of it with your house words keeps the fear alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Because the author thinks they sound cool? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 I followed the link on the Wiki that was the source for the Bolton words, but all I found was the Citadel page listing house heraldry. Its link to House Bolton makes no mention of its words and the list of house mottoes doesn't include them either. So I'm wondering where "Our Blades Are Sharp" came from, or if it's even real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 10 hours ago, Hos the Hostage said: House Bolton is a very old Northern House, dating back to the days when they used bronze weapons. It was the Andals who brought iron-working to Westeros. I do not know if they brough steel weapons, or simply iron weapons that later got improved to steel. Bronze weapons are of inferior quality when compared to steel, both metal-vs-metal and metal-vs-flesh. We assume that the Bolton words come from their habit of flaying the enemies. But could there be another reason for using those specific words - Our Blades Are Sharp? What if that was not a boast or a threat, but a simple fact - They had sharp blades, sharper than those used by other First Men. If so, it is possible that the Boltons had blades made of a special technology or a special material. The Boltons do not even have a Valyrian steel sword of their own (afaik), so there are less chances for them to have dragonsteel blades. Dragonglass on the other hand, Jon notes that the daggers he found in the cache (CoK) were sharper than steel. He also notes them to be brittle, but brittleness is not an issue for flaying purposes. Is it possible that the Children helped the Boltons as well, by giving them weapons to fight the enemy - maybe some Stark connection there? After all, Old Nan says the Night King was a Stark. So far, Boltons look like the 'villains' and Starks look like the 'protectors'. But history is written by winners, and House Stark has ruled the North for thousands of years. Ramsay is a monster, Roose could be a vampire (Bolt-On theories), but we cannot make unbiased assessments regarding right and wrong about the generations of these Northmen before the conquest. Could it be that the Boltons rivalry against Starks has a foundation where the Starks are the villains? This could be total tinfoil since there is zero evidence to make this line of speculation. Or this could be already discussed - if so, it would be of help if you post links to the older threads. You seem to be operating under the assumption that Bronze cannot be sharp, or at least compared to steel. This is wrong. Steel is superior to Bronze because Steel can hold an edge longer under use than Bronze can. "Our Blades Are Sharp" is a perfectly reasonable set of words for a house that removes skin from their enemies to make cloaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bironic Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 3 hours ago, FrostyDornishman said: Blood and More Blood Unhinged, Unpeeled, Unbroken (skin) We Do Not Sew (up our victims) A Bolton Always Flays Their Pets I really don't think there's anything more to it than a threat. They were commanded to stop flaying a while ago, but reminding everyone of it with your house words keeps the fear alive. A naked Man has few secrets, a flayed none.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seams Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 13 hours ago, Hos the Hostage said: So far, Boltons look like the 'villains' and Starks look like the 'protectors'. But history is written by winners, and House Stark has ruled the North for thousands of years. Ramsay is a monster, Roose could be a vampire (Bolt-On theories), but we cannot make unbiased assessments regarding right and wrong about the generations of these Northmen before the conquest. Could it be that the Boltons rivalry against Starks has a foundation where the Starks are the villains? This could be total tinfoil since there is zero evidence to make this line of speculation. Or this could be already discussed - if so, it would be of help if you post links to the older threads. I don't have a theory about bronze vs. dragonglass vs. steel for Bolton weapons. It does occur to me that GRRM revealing this Bolton motto in an interview might be another of his joking references to professional (U.S.) football: the author does not like the New England Patriots and they play in Gillette Stadium which derives its name from the Gillette Razor Blade company. Could there be a bigger putdown for a rival team than to compare them to the Boltons? You asked for links if the possibility has been discussed that the Boltons were possibly the good guys or, at least, seemed to have a rational motive for flaying the Starks and making their skins into cloaks (this cloak-making detail is revealed by Jaime talking to Brienne after the red wedding, and is also in the World book). The only discussion I am aware of was briefly raised in the Direwolf Re-read. In a nutshell, ancient Boltons may have felt they were hunting and killing werewolves when they battled and skinned Starks. A person that can occupy the body of a wolf - and share that wolf's appetite for human flesh - must be a monster and a menace to society, right? Directly to your point: this idea that a "monster" is in the eye of the beholder is consistent with a lot of the moral dilemmas GRRM has presented to us throughout the books. The nature of the Bolton history didn't really catch on as a discussion topic in the Direwolf thread. Instead, some of the discussion on that thread examined what it means for characters to wear furs and skins and hides in light of the "skin changer" and "warg" magical abilities. Cersei wanted "the king I thought to marry" to lay a direwolf pelt across her bed - this might symbolize Cersei wanting to "warg" into the skin of Lyanna Stark, her apparent rival for both Rhaegar and Robert's affections. When Jon is among the wildlings, he wears a sheepskin cloak, making him almost literally a wolf in sheep's clothing. Joffrey has Tommen's pet fawn killed and makes a vest out of the deer's hide. So the Boltons making cloaks out of Stark skin seems to fit this idea of would-be skinchangers, not so much wanting to wipe out monsters but instead wishing they could "become" Starks. Also, I believe the Bolton sigil and Roose Bolton's bloodletting practices are associated with rubies. Melisandre uses a ruby to control the glamoured Mance Rayder who appears to be Rattleshirt. Creating a glamour seems akin to skin changing, although it involves Melisandre as a third party in the body exchange, in the example of which the reader has been made aware. I'm not saying the Boltons are able to create glamours, just that this "wannabe" skin changing is represented in both the flayed man image and the rubies. This is a topic that deserves more discussion, Hos. Thanks for raising it. P.S. To all who posted alternate mottos for House Bolton: Brava and Bravo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hos the Hostage Posted April 1, 2016 Author Share Posted April 1, 2016 8 hours ago, Dorian Martell said: You seem to be operating under the assumption that Bronze cannot be sharp, or at least compared to steel. This is wrong. Steel is superior to Bronze because Steel can hold an edge longer under use than Bronze can. "Our Blades Are Sharp" is a perfectly reasonable set of words for a house that removes skin from their enemies to make cloaks. I did not say bronze cannot be sharp. I said steel is sharper. I made the assumption based on this video. Also, I have no problems with Bolton house words. I was merely thinking of a second layer of implications from those words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hos the Hostage Posted April 1, 2016 Author Share Posted April 1, 2016 @Seams That is a lot of new information for me. Thanks for the link and the thread summary! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninerings Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 14 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said: Because the author thinks they sound cool? This Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Equilibrium Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 What, no way that ancient Boltons would be into some kind of blood magic used to create superswords, oh wait It's a great find, well done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostyDornishman Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 17 hours ago, Bironic said: A naked Man has few secrets, a flayed none.. Now there's a legitimate alternative Also, in reference to the OP: There have certainly been Starks as villainous as any Bolton, and there's a long history of mutual brutality there. But I don't think there's any way for us to know who struck the first blow, nor a way to measure which has been "the most evil house". I don't think there's ever been any mention of the Boltons associating their flaying with something magical, whether it be the blade material or the people-suit itself. You don't need the CotF to help you smack obsidian with a hammer -- it's hard to get obsidian not to make crazy-sharp edges, actually. Nor do I think there is any mention of widespread warging ability among the Starks before this current generation. In short, I think the direwolf and the flayed man are perpetuated because they're symbols of a very real and bloody past for these houses -- pasts that they hope others will fear and respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 15 hours ago, Hos the Hostage said: I did not say bronze cannot be sharp. I said steel is sharper. I made the assumption based on this video. Also, I have no problems with Bolton house words. I was merely thinking of a second layer of implications from those words. Cute vid. He does make it clear that he uses a bronze weapon that is designed to be made out of steel. It has also been blunted from previous use, and back to my previous point, bronze cannot hold an edge as well as steel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clegane'sPup Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 On 3/31/2016 at 2:14 PM, John Suburbs said: I followed the link on the Wiki that was the source for the Bolton words, but all I found was the Citadel page listing house heraldry. Its link to House Bolton makes no mention of its words and the list of house mottoes doesn't include them either. So I'm wondering where "Our Blades Are Sharp" came from, or if it's even real. Yeah, me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alski_bolton Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 On Friday, April 01, 2016 at 3:24 AM, FrostyDornishman said: Blood and More Blood Unhinged, Unpeeled, Unbroken (skin) We Do Not Sew (up our victims) A Bolton Always Flays Their Pets I really don't think there's anything more to it than a threat. They were commanded to stop flaying a while ago, but reminding everyone of it with your house words keeps the fear alive. Wine em , dine em , then flay em On Friday, April 01, 2016 at 3:24 AM, FrostyDornishman said: Blood and More Blood Unhinged, Unpeeled, Unbroken (skin) We Do Not Sew (up our victims) A Bolton Always Flays Their Pets I really don't think there's anything more to it than a threat. They were commanded to stop flaying a while ago, but reminding everyone of it with your house words keeps the fear alive. Wine em, dine em ,then flay em Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GyantSpyder Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Quote Could it be that the Boltons rivalry against Starks has a foundation where the Starks are the villains? Sure - I see one likely way this worked out is that flaying is the evolution over time of a technique originally used to identify skinchangers and wargs. "Sharp" and "keen" can refer to vision and perception as well as actual knives, and torture isn't just about control, it's also about getting information. "Our blades are sharp" is a warning, but it also might be something to the effect of "We have ways of finding out who you really are." You can think of it like Terminator - if your enemy is a superpowered non-human actually capable of looking like a human and infiltrating your community to destroy it or dominate it - then it makes sense for your leadership to be very strict, your society to not have much freedom, and your rulers to brutally make use of any technique that might identify these agents. But then of course it is also very common in history to claim your enemy is like this when they either a) don't have those powers or B ) don't intend to hurt you. I think one way to read the Boltons that can be either sympathetic or unsympathetic depending on perspective or on which Bolton is in control is the Boltons are pragmatic humanists - they believe in human beings and the survival of their people. The Starks, however, are pluralists and transhumanists, whose hereditary is more than just human and who have a history of getting along with either the Children of the Forest, the Others, or both, whom the Boltons may historically see as threats to human beings. It was the Starks who bent the knee to the Dragonlords, who then started mucking around with the traditions and customs in the North - changing the Gift, eliminating the First Night (which for the Boltons may serve the important purpose of breeding out wargs and skinchangers). The Night's King might have been a Stark - forging a marriage pact with the ice demons. And Jon Snow is similar - he sells out the North to help the Wildlings, who are seen by Northerners (sometimes rightly) as outside threats more than people who deserve their protection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light a wight tonight Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 The family that flays together stays together. Let's not forget that before steel was developed there was plain old iron, not all that hard, but compared to bronze quite cheap since it's common and doesn't depend on expensive tin that had to be imported from the Tin Isles or some such distant land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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