In Defense of Freys

[Blackfish Tully]

38 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I said Robb and his Northern army were abandoning the Riverlands. I'm sorry you don't like that, but Robb himself comes to that conclusion

"By now he may have done it. There has been no news for a long while. And what of the Trident, if I turn north? I can't ask the river lords to abandon their own people."

"No," said Catelyn. "Leave them to guard their own, and win back the north with northmen."

 

He freely admits that he is abandoning them, just that he can't ask the Riverlords to do the same. 

 

Asking the Riverlords to head up North when there is a potential attack coming from the Lannisters onto their lands and Robb heading up North to take back his Northern lands so he can use the resources to defend his Riverlands lands are totally different things . Why would he leave his wife and mother in the Riverlands if he was abandoning it? The only chance that the Riverlords had to defend their lands from the Iron Throne was if Robb went back up North drove out the Iron Born and returned with the full force of the North to the Riverlands . The Riverlords aren't dumb , they know what's going on . 

[Bernie Mac]

29 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Were they worried about that, though?

Well shit, if only there was a Frey POV before the Red Wedding then  we could prove one way or the other. But yeah, there is evidence of them being scared off Tywin Lannister

"Lord Tywin is many leagues from here," Bolton said calmly. "He has many matters yet to settle at King's Landing. He will not march on Harrenhal for some time."

Ser Aenys shook his head stubbornly. "You do not know the Lannisters as we do, my lord. King Stannis thought that Lord Tywin was a thousand leagues away as well, and it undid him."

 

And there is ample evidence in the books of Tywin's reputation against foes that have angered him. 

 

While I don't think it was their main motivation I think it odd that you are ruling out the Freys being worried about the consequences of choosing the wrong sides considering their famed fence sitting in Robert's Rebellion? 

 

 

 

[Bernie Mac]

6 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Asking the Riverlords to head up North when there is a potential attack coming from the Lannisters onto their lands and Robb heading up North to take back his Northern lands so he can use the resources to defend his Riverlands lands are totally different things . Why would he leave his wife and mother in the Riverlands if he was abandoning it? The only chance that the Riverlords had to defend their lands from the Iron Throne was if Robb went back up North drove out the Iron Born and returned with the full force of the North to the Riverlands . The Riverlords aren't dumb , they know what's going on . 

Why are you arguing with me? Robb claims that he was abandoning them, take it up with the author. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

7 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Why are you arguing with me? Robb claims that he was abandoning them, take it up with the author. 

No Robb claims that bringing the riverlords with him would be abandoning the smallfolk. Quite a distinction

[Universal Sword Donor]

9 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Well shit, if only there was a Frey POV before the Red Wedding then  we could prove one way or the other. But yeah, there is evidence of them being scared off Tywin Lannister

"Lord Tywin is many leagues from here," Bolton said calmly. "He has many matters yet to settle at King's Landing. He will not march on Harrenhal for some time."

Ser Aenys shook his head stubbornly. "You do not know the Lannisters as we do, my lord. King Stannis thought that Lord Tywin was a thousand leagues away as well, and it undid him."

 

And there is ample evidence in the books of Tywin's reputation against foes that have angered him. 

 

While I don't think it was their main motivation I think it odd that you are ruling out the Freys being worried about the consequences of choosing the wrong sides considering their famed fence sitting in Robert's Rebellion? 

Being afraid of an army led by Tywin is a bit different than coming back into the fold:

“They should all be put to the sword,” Joffrey declared suddenly. “The Mallisters and Blackwoods and Brackens . . . all of them. They’re traitors. I want them killed, Grandfather. I won’t have any generous terms.”

“Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you. ”

If the Freys were scared of Tywin's retribution for being in the rebellion, well frankly they are morons.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

8 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Well shit, if only there was a Frey POV before the Red Wedding then  we could prove one way or the other. But yeah, there is evidence of them being scared off Tywin Lannister

"Lord Tywin is many leagues from here," Bolton said calmly. "He has many matters yet to settle at King's Landing. He will not march on Harrenhal for some time."

Ser Aenys shook his head stubbornly. "You do not know the Lannisters as we do, my lord. King Stannis thought that Lord Tywin was a thousand leagues away as well, and it undid him."

 

And there is ample evidence in the books of Tywin's reputation against foes that have angered him. 

 

While I don't think it was their main motivation I think it odd that you are ruling out the Freys being worried about the consequences of choosing the wrong sides considering their famed fence sitting in Robert's Rebellion? 

 

If only that had been on topic...

But we weren't talking about whether people in general feared Tywin Lannister (as you noted - they did), we were talking about whether that had served as a motivation for the Red Wedding. And for that, you still have nothing, as I expected (no, the quote from long before Robb returned from the Westerlands with Jeyne in tow doesn't count).

[Bernie Mac]

48 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

If only that had been on topic...

But we weren't talking about whether people in general feared Tywin Lannister (as you noted - they did), we were talking about whether that had served as a motivation for the Red Wedding.

eh? 

You don't think it came up? That is did not cross any of the Frey's minds? That they were not worried about it? Well if not then fair enough, I guess we will have to agree to disagree?

48 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

 

And for that, you still have nothing, as I expected (no, the quote from long before Robb returned from the Westerlands with Jeyne in tow doesn't count).

Do you only engage in topics that are 100% verified by quotes from the book? If so, fair enough, but some of us are happy to speculate. 

 

56 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Being afraid of an army led by Tywin is a bit different than coming back into the fold:

“They should all be put to the sword,” Joffrey declared suddenly. “The Mallisters and Blackwoods and Brackens . . . all of them. They’re traitors. I want them killed, Grandfather. I won’t have any generous terms.”

“Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you. ”

If the Freys were scared of Tywin's retribution for being in the rebellion, well frankly they are morons.

If only Walder Frey was there to witness that he'd be OK. 

Is the concept of people being afraid of Tywin Lannister's reputation really that alien to many of you?  Does the man whose primary motivation for wiping out Robb and his entire army not strike you as someone who might feel others may take a similar viewpoint on retribution on people who have wronged him?

It is not like I suggested that self preservation was the primary or even secondary motivation in what the Freys did but that it would have been a factor. Or is that really so hard to comprehend? That it is easier to have the Freys act for 'evil' reasons.

 

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

No Robb claims that bringing the riverlords with him would be abandoning the smallfolk. Quite a distinction

Is it? I'd say the smallfolk of the Riverland and the Riverlands are pretty much the same. But obviously I can only speak for my own viewpoint. 

If you take it as Robb simply abandoning the Riverland smallfolk then I am not going to quibble with that. 

[Blackfish Tully]

19 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Is it? I'd say the smallfolk of the Riverland and the Riverlands are pretty much the same. But obviously I can only speak for my own viewpoint. 

If you take it as Robb simply abandoning the Riverland smallfolk then I am not going to quibble with that. 

The Riverlords are each responsible for their own lands while Robb is King of the Riverlands and the North , he  has to defend both lands so him leaving the Riverlands to go up North and drive out the Iron Born so he can return with the full force of the North against the Iron Throne  is not him abandoning the Riverlands no more than him attacking the Westerlands was him abandoning the Riverlands . He's fighting a war and going North was the only chance he and the Riverlords had of winning . 

Why would he leave his possibly pregnant wife and his mother in the Riverlands if he was abandoning it ? 

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

25 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

If only Walder Frey was there to witness that he'd be OK. 

Is the concept of people being afraid of Tywin Lannister's reputation really that alien to many of you?  Does the man whose primary motivation for wiping out Robb and his entire army not strike you as someone who might feel others may take a similar viewpoint on retribution on people who have wronged him?

It is not like I suggested that self preservation was the primary or even secondary motivation in what the Freys did but that it would have been a factor. Or is that really so hard to comprehend? That it is easier to have the Freys act for 'evil' reasons.

To the bolded, no. However we also realize that there are dozens of examples that illustrate the Freys had nothing to worry about. The Tarbeck-Reynes rebellion illustrates this perfectly. People who paid their debts or gave hostages (a la Harys Swift) were helped back on their feet. Those who did not (Reynes & Tarbecks) were served fire and sword (And water).

He lets the Brackens, Blackwoods, Pipers, et al all bend the knee. He was even making a deal with Roose Bolton, who's a northerner. Is that not something that Walder would be unaware of? Obviously not since the Northerners did most of the killing at the red wedding.

39 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

Is it? I'd say the smallfolk of the Riverland and the Riverlands are pretty much the same. But obviously I can only speak for my own viewpoint. 

If you take it as Robb simply abandoning the Riverland smallfolk then I am not going to quibble with that. 

He's not abandoning them. He's allowing the Riverlords to stay, appointing a regent, and leaving his possibly-pregnant wife and mother in the RL.

[Bowen 747]

On 4/1/2016 at 2:58 AM, My_Half_Groat said:

so I've pretty much had the same opinion as Manderly about the Freys. but then I sat back and thought about the huge number of them out there. there have to be tons of decent people unfortunate enough to be related to Walder Frey. for a real life example; some people have horrible racist grandfathers they can't stand, but you can't really do anything about it other than disavow him at every family function.

has our anger at Walder Frey Sr. allowed us to paint with too broad a brush? even some of the Freys that are part of the inner circle who knew about the plans for the Red Wedding. what are they supposed to do if they are morally conflicted about it and try to argue against something horrendous only to get shouted down? should they have betrayed their family? what if they're very progressive, can they justify it by saying, "it'll bring an end to the war and peace for the smallfolk who have suffered"?

I get that we haven't met many Freys who inspire sympathy but just statistically speaking they can't all be Black Walder.

what are your thoughts?

I like Walder Frey.  He's the funniest, wittiest guy in the books.  Robb was stupid.  He was already warned.  He considered himself an honorable man.  The Starks considered themselves an honorable family.  Robb and the Starks are anything but honorable.  Yeah, the RW broke guest rights but I still don't have sympathy for the Starks because I don't like them.  Walder and the Freys need no defense from me.  Put the Stark's back up against the wall the way Walder's back was and they would break every taboo in the books to save themselves.