In Defense of Freys

[My_Half_Groat]

so I've pretty much had the same opinion as Manderly about the Freys. but then I sat back and thought about the huge number of them out there. there have to be tons of decent people unfortunate enough to be related to Walder Frey. for a real life example; some people have horrible racist grandfathers they can't stand, but you can't really do anything about it other than disavow him at every family function.

has our anger at Walder Frey Sr. allowed us to paint with too broad a brush? even some of the Freys that are part of the inner circle who knew about the plans for the Red Wedding. what are they supposed to do if they are morally conflicted about it and try to argue against something horrendous only to get shouted down? should they have betrayed their family? what if they're very progressive, can they justify it by saying, "it'll bring an end to the war and peace for the smallfolk who have suffered"?

I get that we haven't met many Freys who inspire sympathy but just statistically speaking they can't all be Black Walder.

what are your thoughts?

[INCBlackbird]

I would think that this is kind of obvious, Guilt by association isn't valid for obvious reasons and honestly the people who scream about wanting all the freys to be killed horribly don't think what they're saying through.

Also, while i understand Maderly's anger, I can't approve of what he did one bit, I think he stooped to Walder's level with what he did.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

What I find hilarious is that it is not so much the killing that people find offensive but the breaking of guest rights.

Robb is allowed to attack a sleeping army and kill with abandon and that is perfectly justified but because Robb was offered Tea and Crumpets before he was attacked then all Freys, regardless of their involvement,  should die.

[JonisHenryTudor]

1 minute ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

What I find hilarious is that it is not so much the killing that people find offensive but the breaking of guest rights.

Robb is allowed to attack a sleeping army and kill with abandon and that is perfectly justified but because Robb was offered Tea and Crumpets before he was attacked then all Freys, regardless of their involvement,  should die.

Well to be fair Robb and the Lannisters were at war, Robb and Frey were not so....

 

Besides it is fantasy, not real life. Nobody is actually dying or feeling any pain here. Most people wanting all the Frey's to be wiped out, probably wouldn't call for the extermination of an entire group of real people, so... Take that as you will. 

[Winter's Cold]

3 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

What I find hilarious is that it is not so much the killing that people find offensive but the breaking of guest rights.

Robb is allowed to attack a sleeping army and kill with abandon and that is perfectly justified but because Robb was offered Tea and Crumpets before he was attacked then all Freys, regardless of their involvement,  should die.

That's the custom yes. Ambushes and surprise attacks are allowed such as when Tywin and Jaime started attacking the Riverlands. What is now allowed is guaranteeing safety of your guests then butchering them. Such an action will damn you in the eyes of gods and men.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

8 minutes ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

Well to be fair Robb and the Lannisters were at war, Robb and Frey were not so....

So were the Freys, it is just like the sleeping green boys at Oxcross Robb was not aware of it.

8 minutes ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

 

Besides it is fantasy, not real life. Nobody is actually dying or feeling any pain here. Most people wanting all the Frey's to be wiped out, probably wouldn't call for the extermination of an entire group of real people, so... Take that as you will. 

Exactly. Robb was not a real person yet the outrage to is his death, when he was surprising and killing others in a similar manner, is quite funny.

The reality is people hate the Freys because they killed a character they were rooting for but for some reason have to justify their hatred with the excuse of Guest Rights.

 

9 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

That's the custom yes. Ambushes and surprise attacks are allowed such as when Tywin and Jaime started attacking the Riverlands. What is now allowed is guaranteeing safety of your guests then butchering them. Such an action will damn you in the eyes of gods and men.

As would cannibalism and yet that act was cheered on.

[JonisHenryTudor]

5 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

 

The reality is people hate the Freys because they killed a character they were rooting for but for some reason have to justify their hatred with the excuse of Guest Rights.

 

 

Fair enough. Personally I dislike the Frey's because I love the Starks . For me, they are the only interesting part of the story. I like Tyrion, Gendry, Stannis, and perhaps a few others (yes even the Others ) I admit my animoxity is for taking out one of my favorite characters, however, I will say that I don't necessarily want every Frey taken out...just Walder and the main perps. The random Frey who was probably gnawing on carrots somewhere doesn't deserve to suffer, but I think part of the issue is we see houses, not necessarily people. If that makes any sense.... 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

6 minutes ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

Fair enough. Personally I dislike the Frey's because I love the Stark characters. For me, they are the only interesting part of the story. I like Tyrion, Gendry, Stannis, and perhaps a few others (yes even the Others ) I admit my animoxity is for taking out one of my favorite characters, however, I will say that I don't necessarily want every Frey taken out...just Walder and the main perps. The random Frey who was probably gnawing on carrots somewhere doesn't deserve to suffer, but I think part of the issue is we see houses, not necessarily people. If that makes any sense.... 

Also fair enough.

Personally I love the Freys, they are my favourite House but I have no problem with what Manderly or the Brotherhood have done to them as in Westeros you reap what you sow.

If the story had them all wiped  out (along with the Boltons and Cersei's brrod) my biggest problem would not so much be the innocents who died but that it kind of takes away from the realism that the series has tried to maintain (if you ignore the Dragons and Wights) by having the baddies get there just deserts.

[The Mountain That Flies]

17 hours ago, My_Half_Groat said:

has our anger at Walder Frey Sr. allowed us to paint with too broad a brush? even some of the Freys that are part of the inner circle who knew about the plans for the Red Wedding. what are they supposed to do if they are morally conflicted about it and try to argue against something horrendous only to get shouted down? should they have betrayed their family? what if they're very progressive, can they justify it by saying, "it'll bring an end to the war and peace for the smallfolk who have suffered"?

This actually is probably intentional on GRRM's part. A number of characters eloquently state how futile cycles of revenge are, so by creating an entire house it's easy to hate Martin sucks into this brutal mentality.

In a more direct answer there do seem to be some decent Freys (Stevron, Olyvar), but we also see a lot that delight in backstabbing and undermining one another. That would never be sufficient reason to wipe them all out, but proportionally it does seem like they are more bad than good (which I fully admit is an extremely unscientific way of determining percentages).

[The Ice Wolf of Loki]

20 hours ago, INCBlackbird said:

Also, while i understand Maderly's anger, I can't approve of what he did one bit, I think he stooped to Walder's level with what he did.

No he didn't the Frey's were there to extort him, he treated them better than they deserved as guests and let them go on their way, then after they should no longer expected any protection in a nominally-hostile territory he hunted them down.

[Maxxine]

4 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

What I find hilarious is that it is not so much the killing that people find offensive but the breaking of guest rights.

Robb is allowed to attack a sleeping army and kill with abandon and that is perfectly justified but because Robb was offered Tea and Crumpets before he was attacked then all Freys, regardless of their involvement,  should die.

There's a big difference between a sneak attack within the context of a war and inviting someone to a wedding then slaughtering them. One is war the other is betrayal. And this stance for me has nothing to with liking a certain character. I'm so-so on Robb & can't stand Catelyn (although I wasn't happy about Dacey's death). I'll admit my dislike is  stronger bc of  the culture of guest right portrayed in  the books but even in real life the difference between an act of war & killing ppl at wedding is not an apples to apples comparison.  

In regards to the OP, while I think I have said the Freys are going to be punished it's necessarily meant literally as in every single one. It just easier to say "the Freys" instead of specifying which ones I'm talking about. But Of course, my logical mind knows that there are Freys that are innocent. 

 

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

6 minutes ago, Maxxine said:

There's a big difference between a sneak attack within the context of a war and inviting someone to a wedding then slaughtering them. One is war the other is betrayal.

Well Robb did betray the Freys first. Many of them died for a payment that he refused to pay.

Robb deserved what he got at the Twins. His soldiers were unlucky and Cat was underserving of her fate but the Freys definitely owed Robb for his betrayal.

6 minutes ago, Maxxine said:

 

I'll admit my dislike is  stronger bc of  the culture of guest right portrayed in  the books but even in real life the difference between an act of war & killing ppl at wedding is not an apples to apples comparison.  

They were soldiers at the Twins via there march to try and retake Moat Cailin. Robb's soldiers were just not ready for such an attack just like the sleeping soldiers at Oxcross and Riverrun were not ready for an attack.

[The Ice Wolf of Loki]

13 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

They were soldiers at the Twins via there march to try and retake Moat Cailin. Robb's soldiers were just not ready for such an attack just like the sleeping soldiers at Oxcross and Riverrun were not ready for an attack.

They weren't ready because they were in "friendly" territory, under guest right and attending a wedding.

[The Wolves]

7 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Well Robb did betray the Freys first. Many of them died for a payment that he refused to pay.

Robb deserved what he got at the Twins. His soldiers were unlucky and Cat was underserving of her fate but the Freys definitely owed Robb for his betrayal.

They were soldiers at the Twins via there march to try and retake Moat Cailin. Robb's soldiers were just not ready for such an attack just like the sleeping soldiers at Oxcross and Riverrun were not ready for an attack.

Robb actually owned up to his mistake and tried to make it up to the Freys. 

I don't see how Robb deserved his fate. His crime(a broken marriage agreement)didn't fit his punishment. 

I also don't get how you can not see the difference between Robb attacking the enemy army by suprise and Walder luring Robb and his men into his home under a false sense of protection and forgiveness. Robb never gave the Lannister army any sense of protection or belief that he wouldn't attack and kill them. Walder actually did give thousands that belief and they hung up their swords and respected his home because they believed him. 

[TOM of the North]

21 hours ago, My_Half_Groat said:

so I've pretty much had the same opinion as Manderly about the Freys. but then I sat back and thought about the huge number of them out there. there have to be tons of decent people unfortunate enough to be related to Walder Frey. for a real life example; some people have horrible racist grandfathers they can't stand, but you can't really do anything about it other than disavow him at every family function.

has our anger at Walder Frey Sr. allowed us to paint with too broad a brush? even some of the Freys that are part of the inner circle who knew about the plans for the Red Wedding. what are they supposed to do if they are morally conflicted about it and try to argue against something horrendous only to get shouted down? should they have betrayed their family? what if they're very progressive, can they justify it by saying, "it'll bring an end to the war and peace for the smallfolk who have suffered"?

I get that we haven't met many Freys who inspire sympathy but just statistically speaking they can't all be Black Walder.

what are your thoughts?

I don't know what you're talking about.

Kill all the freys!! but harm no child under twelve.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

5 minutes ago, The Ice Wolf of Loki said:

They weren't ready because they were in "friendly" territory, under guest right and attending a wedding.

The 3,500 soldiers he brought with him were not there to attend a wedding. They were there to match to Moat Cailin. I get why you want to portray it as innocent party guests but these were soldiers who had done their fair share of killing and attacking innocents in the West.

4 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Robb actually owned up to his mistake and tried to make it up to the Freys. 

Well in the Words of Walder Frey; "Heh," Lord Walder cackled at Robb, "the King in the North arises. Seems we killed some of your men, Your Grace. Oh, but I'll make you an apology, that will mend them all again, heh."

The damage had been done. I don't expect the Northmen to forgive Walder Frey for the Red Wedding no matter how many times he says he is sorry.

4 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

I don't see how Robb deserved his fate. His crime(a broken marriage agreement)didn't fit his punishment. 

Sure it did. As Robb put it; "I never meant to. Ser Stevron died for me"

But it was not just Stevron. It was Tion as well and between 500-1000 Frey soldiers at the Green Fork. A lot of Frey people died for Robb's promise and he failed to deliver in his end.

4 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

I also don't get how you can not see the difference between Robb attacking the enemy army by suprise and Walder luring Robb and his men into his home under a false sense of protection and forgiveness. Robb never gave the Lannister army any sense of protection or belief that he wouldn't attack and kill them. Walder actually did give thousands that belief and they hung up their swords and respected his home because they believed him. 

More fool them. I really don't see how the Freys owe  the North men anything. Afterall the Greatjon wanted to kill the Freys in the Westerlands

"Olyvar was as loyal a squire as any king could want. He asked to stay with me, but Ser Ryman took him with the rest. All their strength. The Greatjon urged me to attack them . . ."

"Fighting your own in the midst of your enemies?" she said. "It would have been the end of you."

 

and that was not the first time as the Northmen wanted to destroy the Twins at the start of the war when the Freys wanted to stay neutral in the Twins

 

"Damn the man," Robb swore. "If the old fool does not relent and let me cross, he'll leave me no choice but to storm his walls. I'll pull the Twins down around his ears if I have to, we'll see how well he likes that!"

 

Robb and the Northmen are not some innocents they just happened to get fucked over by the Freys before they could do the same to them.

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

29 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Robb actually owned up to his mistake and tried to make it up to the Freys. 

I don't see how Robb deserved his fate. His crime(a broken marriage agreement)didn't fit his punishment. 

I also don't get how you can not see the difference between Robb attacking the enemy army by suprise and Walder luring Robb and his men into his home under a false sense of protection and forgiveness. Robb never gave the Lannister army any sense of protection or belief that he wouldn't attack and kill them. Walder actually did give thousands that belief and they hung up their swords and respected his home because they believed him. 

The thing is, though, that there was no way to make it up to the Freys, and Robb Stark knew that, even as he betrayed them. It doesn't matter how hard he tried to make it up to them, what Walder Frey wanted was gone.

Imagine this: you buy, say, an apple. The best apple in the world. You've paid for it, and will continue paying for it. But, alas, before it's been given to you, the seller gives it to another. Then, after this, offers you other apples. Lesser apples. You like apples, it's true, but these apples simply do not compare. Not only are these apples sub-par, in comparison, but the seller also demands the same price. He cannot reimburse you for what you've already paid, either, as that money has already been spent. What do you do? Do you just sit there, and continue paying the exorbitant price? No. You don't. You stop giving that man your business, and go elsewhere.

That was Walder Frey's punishment to Robb Stark. Not the wedding, that was just how he dealt with him. The punishment was going over to the Lannisters. A fair punishment, too.

And truly, there isn't much of a difference between the actions of Robb Stark and Walder Frey. Both of them took advantage of the fact that their opponents weren't ready for a battle. When Robb Stark does it, it's praised as ingenuity. When Walder Frey does it, it's an evil act. It is exactly the same.

In some way, Robb Stark had give the Lannister army some sense of protection. They had no idea that he was there. They certainly didn't believe that he would attack and kill them, as they didn't know he was there at all. Sneak attacks are sneak attacks, whether they're at a wedding or not. Walder Frey had joined up with the Lannisters; therefore they were at war.

45 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

...and Cat was underserving of her fate...

Catelyn Stark sealed her fate when she killed Aegon Frey.

[LordPathera]

Things would be different if Walder had either stayed neutral after the marriage pact was broken or outright sided with the Lannisters.

But the fact remains that Walder and several sons and grandsons committed high treason, deception and murder against Robb. They pretended to accept his efforts to reconcile the breach he'd created while plotting with Roose and Tywin to murder him and his men. They then committed mass murder to people who'd been previously assured of security under guest right and believed the Freys to be allies or at the very least, hospitable hosts.

On an ethical and moral level, there's no possible valid defense that can justify the Red Wedding. Even on a utilitarian level, it assured that no other house would ever trust House Frey again after they violated Guest Right and outright murdered their sworn king out of relative petty spite. Depending on how events turn out in the South and North, House Frey doesn't look like it will last long due to just how many folk in the North and the Riverlands despise the Freys.

Now who deserves to die? Walder and everyone involved in the Red Wedding need to die no doubt and that's already underway thanks to Lady Stoneheart and Lord Manderly's fascination with pies. But the rest of the house? No, they don't have blood on their hands personally though an argument can be made for those who had knowledge of the plot even if they didn't participate. But those seeking justice for the Red Wedding may not make that distinction. At the very least, House Frey may end up losing the Twins and the Crossing...at worst, lots of Freys will die because of their patriarch's treachery. The death of innocents always suck, but overall, House Frey would reap what it sowed.

[The Wolves]

9 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

The 3,500 soldiers he brought with him were not there to attend a wedding. They were there to match to Moat Cailin. I get why you want to portray it as innocent party guests but these were soldiers who had done their fair share of killing and attacking innocents in the West.

Well in the Words of Walder Frey; "Heh," Lord Walder cackled at Robb, "the King in the North arises. Seems we killed some of your men, Your Grace. Oh, but I'll make you an apology, that will mend them all again, heh."

The damage had been done. I don't expect the Northmen to forgive Walder Frey for the Red Wedding no matter how many times he says he is sorry.

Sure it did. As Robb put it; "I never meant to. Ser Stevron died for me"

But it was not just Stevron. It was Tion as well and between 500-1000 Frey soldiers at the Green Fork. A lot of Frey people died for Robb's promise and he failed to deliver in his end.

More fool them. I really don't see how the Freys owe  the North men anything. Afterall the Greatjon wanted to kill the Freys in the Westerlands

"Olyvar was as loyal a squire as any king could want. He asked to stay with me, but Ser Ryman took him with the rest. All their strength. The Greatjon urged me to attack them . . ."

"Fighting your own in the midst of your enemies?" she said. "It would have been the end of you."

 

and that was not the first time as the Northmen wanted to destroy the Twins at the start of the war when the Freys wanted to stay neutral in the Twins

 

"Damn the man," Robb swore. "If the old fool does not relent and let me cross, he'll leave me no choice but to storm his walls. I'll pull the Twins down around his ears if I have to, we'll see how well he likes that!"

 

Robb and the Northmen are not some innocents they just happened to get fucked over by the Freys before they could do the same to them.

Than if Robb couldn't have made it up to the Freys Walder should have said "fuck you" you're not crossing my bridge and my alliance lies with the ugly throne and the inbreed retarded rulers. 

And you're right the Freys didn't owe Robb and his shit nor were the Northmen innocent yet they didn't attack any Freys cause Robb is a better man than them. 

Yet don't try and say what Robb did to his enemies at Oxcross and Riverrun is the same as the RW because it's not. The RW was a bitch move from a bunch of bitches and cowards who couldn't put the boy down in battle so they decided to do it while he was unarmed and had the belief that he would come to no harm under an allies' roof. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

8 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Than if Robb couldn't have made it up to the Freys Walder should have said "fuck you" you're not crossing my bridge and my alliance lies with the ugly throne and the inbreed retarded rulers. 

How does Walder get his deserved revenge on Robb that way? His heir and the hundreds of Frey soldiers who lost their lives and Walder is just supposed to say bygones?

8 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

And you're right the Freys didn't owe Robb and his shit nor were the Northmen innocent yet they didn't attack any Freys cause Robb is a better man than them. 

lol no. They didn't attack the Twins because they knew it would be a lost cause;

The Greatjon began to curse and swear as soon as he saw what awaited them. Lord Rickard Karstark glowered in silence. "That cannot be assaulted, my lords," Roose Bolton announced.

"Nor can we take it by siege, without an army on the far bank to invest the other castle," Helman Tallhart said gloomily. Across the deep-running green waters, the western twin stood like a reflection of its eastern brother. "Even if we had the time. Which, to be sure, we do not."

 

and they did not attack the Freys in the Westerlands for some noble reason but because it would have been idiotic and put them in danger

 

"Fighting your own in the midst of your enemies?" she said. "It would have been the end of you."

 

The Freys got lucky at the Twins and the Westerlands. They might not get lucky the third time the Northmen decide they want to end them for no good reason.

 

8 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Yet don't try and say what Robb did to his enemies at Oxcross and Riverrun is the same as the RW because it's not.

Not the exact same, no. But it is similar a surprise attack on an unsuspecting enemy. At least Robb's soldiers were awake when they were attacked.

8 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

The RW was a bitch move from a bunch of bitches and cowards who couldn't put the boy down in battle so they decided to do it while he was unarmed and had the belief that he would come to no harm under an allies' roof. 

Sure. The Freys could not beat Robb in the field. They needed Roose and Roose and Lothar arranged the Red Wedding. They knew that Robb was dumb enough to ignore his mothers advice to stay alert.