In Defense of Freys

[watcher of the night]

39 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Deal with what? Robb did something wrong and paid for it. The Freys have done something wrong and paid for it from Manderly and the LSH and will probably continue to pay for it in later books

Robb did something wrong and he tried to ammend it. The Frey did something horrible and they are proud of it.  You don't see any difference?

 

Perhaps take off your Lannister glasses that might help ...

[Equilibrium]

I don't think the point was to defend the Frey actions, but to say not all Freys are bad and deserving to be killed for the RW.

And to everyone defending the Freys who did take part in organizing RW you are going too far, and that is coming from a guy who recently defended Littlefinger.

Step 1 Don't answer the summons of your lord to whom you are both honor and contract bound to obey

Step 2 Blackmail your lord's lord with outrageous requests so you will do something you should have done in the first place

Step 3 Accept the substitute deal after circumstances change and use it as a cover to brutally murder your sovereign and bunch of innocent unarmed people all of whom are your guests, whom you invited for the occasion of wedding while they were celebrating. Then switch allegiance to the enemy and usurp your lord and son-in-law's ancestral castle.

If that can be justified or defended so can be the murder of whole families, innocent or not, with or without reason, moral relativism FTW

 

 

[HexMachina]

59 minutes ago, Equilibrium said:

I don't think the point was to defend the Frey actions, but to say not all Freys are bad and deserving to be killed for the RW.

And to everyone defending the Freys who did take part in organizing RW you are going too far, and that is coming from a guy who recently defended Littlefinger.

Step 1 Don't answer the summons of your lord to whom you are both honor and contract bound to obey

Step 2 Blackmail your lord's lord with outrageous requests so you will do something you should have done in the first place

Step 3 Accept the substitute deal after circumstances change and use it as a cover to brutally murder your sovereign and bunch of innocent unarmed people all of whom are your guests, whom you invited for the occasion of wedding while they were celebrating. Then switch allegiance to the enemy and usurp your lord and son-in-law's ancestral castle.

If that can be justified or defended so can be the murder of whole families, innocent or not, with or without reason, moral relativism FTW

 

 

Robb wasn't their Lords Lord. He was Lord of an entirely different region at the relevant time. He only became King of the North and Trident after Ned died.

[Equilibrium]

37 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Robb wasn't their Lords Lord. He was Lord of an entirely different region at the relevant time. He only became King of the North and Trident after Ned died.

Yup, memory lapse, he was just the ally of their rightful lord at the time, and if Walder honored his obligations he would let Robb pass and give him the army right away.

 

[Darth Sidious]

15 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

The reality is people hate the Freys because they killed a character they were rooting for but for some reason have to justify their hatred with the excuse of Guest Rights.

 

 

Exactly.  People are biased towards the Starks because they initially had the most POVs.  Reading things from that person's perspective is likely to bias a lot of people to that person.  We have seen as the story progresses that the Starks are not any more noble than any other typical family in Westeros.   Look what they have become.  They tried to separate the north from the seven kingdoms and failed at their rebellion.  Their bastard brother allied himself with the most dangerous criminal the kingdom has ever known: Mance Rayder.  Jon starts a war with the Boltons and created chaos at the wall to rescue his sister.  The youngest sister is a cold-blooded killer who just killed an innocent businessman.  They are most definitely not better than your average noble family in terms of moral and ethics.  They don't hold the high ground with respect to those. 

Looking at the big picture, what Robb was trying to do was bad for the seven kingdoms and bad for the north in the long run.  Robb was trying to break the kingdom right before "winter is coming."  The Starks preach winter is coming and yet oldest son wanted to break the kingdom apart.  Distant son preached about duty and dedication to the wall and then he betrays his job to help fArya.  How is that for Stark hypocrisy.

 

[norwaywolf123]

Why to people always need to PAY fot their crimes? Who are good and who are bad? Are children innocent of others crimes?

Fuck this. The reason with these books are to show the pointlessness of war, if you care about anyone.... But still id someone die they can always be replaced noone is ireplacelble and human rights are a joke.

- Im was OK with Karstark slaying tion and willem while they were prisoners

- i was ok with Northern sneak attack on Lannister both times "Oxcross and Riverrun"

- I was ok with the red wedding

- I was ok with the purple wedding

- I am ok with Lannisters burning the southern riverlands leaving many many thousands to die

- I am ok with Stark burning the northern westerlands leaving many thousendst to starve + all the rape and pilageing

- i am ok with slaying roberts bastards

- i am ok with the yunkai slaughter or genocide of former slaves and will be ok with dany burning yunkai and every person in it down to the last babe sucking it mothers breast, besides give it 300 undread or more years and people will still be there.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

6 hours ago, watcher of the night said:

Robb did something wrong and he tried to ammend it. The Frey did something horrible and they are proud of it.  You don't see any difference?

Robb was proud of it. Look at how he boasts to his mother about the pedigree of House Westerling

Robb bristled at that. "The Westerlings are better blood than the Freys. They're an ancient line, descended from the First Men. The Kings of the Rock sometimes wed Westerlings before the Conquest, and there was another Jeyne Westerling who was queen to King Maegor three hundred years ago."

And I imagine when the Freys become as desperate as Robb was they too will 'try to make amends'. Robb was in desperate need of their support, he had little choice but to try and make things right. From the Freys perspective not only did Robb stab them in the back but shortly after that they brutally murdered young Tion Frey.

 

2 hours ago, Equilibrium said:

 

And to everyone defending the Freys who did take part in organizing RW you are going too far, and that is coming from a guy who recently defended Littlefinger.

How do you figure that?

The Freys actually had a respectable motive for what they did. Stevron, Tion and hundreds of Frey men lost their lives for Robb's promise, they had a legitimate reason for what they did. They certainly overreacted (like many fans want the North to overreact against the Freys) but there motives of revenge and self preservation against the Crown are understandable.

Littlefinger broke guest rights against Joffrey for ambition. I have no idea why he made Jeyne Poole into a whore but can't imagine they were decent reasons and he cuckolded and then had killed Jon Arryn (the man who made him what he is today) and then Lysa. 

The Freys motives are far more understandable than Littlefingers.

2 hours ago, Equilibrium said:

Step 1 Don't answer the summons of your lord to whom you are both honor and contract bound to obey

Nor did the Mallisters who are closer to Rivrrun than the Freys are. It is hardly Walder's fault that Edmure screwed the pooch so badly and was under siege almost immediately after sending a 4k army into Westerland territory.

It also should be remembered that Jaime is a Kingsguard member and by the time Robb reached the Twins Tywin was Hand. Walder had a divided loyalty to both the Crown and the Tullys.

2 hours ago, Equilibrium said:

Step 2 Blackmail your lord's lord with outrageous requests so you will do something you should have done in the first place

Robb was not Hoster's Lord. Walder owed him nothing.

And was it blackmail when Robb's grandfather demanded a marriage alliance with the Rebels in Robert's Rebellion? Was it blackmail when Robb's ancestor Cregan Stark demanded a marriage alliance to get involved in the Dance of the Dragons?

If you want to call it blackmail then that is fine, but that practice is seen as  legitimate in Westeros.

2 hours ago, Equilibrium said:

Step 3 Accept the substitute deal after circumstances change and use it as a cover to brutally murder your sovereign and bunch of innocent unarmed people all of whom are your guests, whom you invited for the occasion of wedding while they were celebrating. Then switch allegiance to the enemy and usurp your lord and son-in-law's ancestral castle.

There was actually very few people who were there as 'guests'. Robbs army was on their way North to retake Moat Cailin. Robb's soldiers were caught unaware just like the sleeping Lannister soldiers were caught unaware at Oxcross and Riverrun.

2 hours ago, Equilibrium said:

If that can be justified or defended so can be the murder of whole families, innocent or not, with or without reason, moral relativism FTW

Whole families? lol where do you get this from?

[watcher of the night]

24 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Robb was proud of it. Look at how he boasts to his mother about the pedigree of House Westerling

Robb bristled at that. "The Westerlings are better blood than the Freys. They're an ancient line, descended from the First Men. The Kings of the Rock sometimes wed Westerlings before the Conquest, and there was another Jeyne Westerling who was queen to King Maegor three hundred years ago."

And I imagine when the Freys become as desperate as Robb was they too will 'try to make amends'. Robb was in desperate need of their support, he had little choice but to try and make things right. From the Freys perspective not only did Robb stab them in the back but shortly after that they brutally murdered young Tion Frey.

 

You are totally blindsided. Robb's "backstabbing" was that he married to an other girl. Frey's backstabbing was the murder of hundreds of people who enjoyed the guestright of the Freys.

Once more:

Freys broke something that was sacred in the North: the guest right. How difficult is that to understand?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

2 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

You are totally blindsided. Robb's "backstabbing" was that he married to an other girl. Frey's backstabbing was the murder of hundreds of people who enjoyed the guestright of the Freys.

Robbs backstabbing was that he made an agreement in which 4,000 Freys would sacrifice their lives for him, hundreds dying in the process including the heir of the Crossing. Robb screwed the Freys big time and many died for his refusal to honour his promise.

 

2 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

Once more:

Freys broke something that was sacred in the North: the guest right. How difficult is that to understand?

lol Read the thread. That is exactly my point, that some Stark fans have to cling on to the 'guest rights' as a reason to be morally outraged. Robb killed thousands of sleeping men but that is OK but somehow 'guest rights' is a sin that no one can be forgiven for.

Be truthful to yourself. You are angry because it was Robb, not some custom.

Both parties have a right to be aggrieved and both parties have a right to seek vengeance.

[watcher of the night]

9 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Robbs backstabbing was that he made an agreement in which 4,000 Freys would sacrifice their lives for him, hundreds dying in the process including the heir of the Crossing. Robb screwed the Freys big time and many died for his refusal to honour his promise.

 

lol Read the thread. That is exactly my point, that some Stark fans have to cling on to the 'guest rights' as a reason to be morally outraged. Robb killed thousands of sleeping men but that is OK but somehow 'guest rights' is a sin that no one can be forgiven for.

Be truthful to yourself. You are angry because it was Robb, not some custom.

Both parties have a right to be aggrieved and both parties have a right to seek vengeance.

I understand that you don't understand the importance of the guest right, but you don't understand that in the story it is sacred.

Also the example that you cite could not be more off target. Do you really want to equate a military surprise attack with the red wedding? Where Freys slaughtered their own allies with whom they were drinking together seconds before? Well, I know you want, so it is a pointless debate ... enjoy your Frey/Lanister glasses.

 

ps. I don't really care about Robb, I knew from the start that he would fail.

[INCBlackbird]

12 hours ago, The Ice Wolf of Loki said:

No he didn't the Frey's were there to extort him, he treated them better than they deserved as guests and let them go on their way, then after they should no longer expected any protection in a nominally-hostile territory he hunted them down.

How is that not just as bad as what Walder did? And that's not even taking into account the pie part....

[watcher of the night]

3 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

How is that not just as bad as what Walder did? And that's not even taking into account the pie part....

It was a revenge, response for the Red Wedding, a reaction. He had no reason to it before the Red Wedding. Also, he did not brake the guest right. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

6 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

I understand that you don't understand the importance of the guest right, but you don't understand that in the story it is sacred.

No, I understand. I have been quite clear throughout this thread. Both parties did something wrong. When Aegon V made an marriage alliance with the Lyonal Baratheon and he broke his word the Storm King went to war. (and no Baratheons died or fought for that broken promise)

I just find it funny and a little hypocritical how you will focus on Guest Rights and then downplay what Robb did. They both screwed each other.

The Freys should have no complaints for what Wyman or the Brotherhood do just like Robb should have no complaints for what the Freys did.

6 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

Also the example that you cite could not be more off target. Do you really want to equate a military surprise attack with the red wedding?

Yes. The Red Wedding was a military surprise attack.

6 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

Where Freys slaughtered their own allies with whom they were drinking together seconds before?

Allies? Would an ally say this? " but Ser Ryman took him with the rest. All their strength. The Greatjon urged me to attack them . . ."

or this; "I never meant to. Ser Stevron died for me, and Olyvar was as loyal a squire as any king could want. He asked to stay with me, but Ser Ryman took him with the rest. All their strength. The Greatjon urged me to attack them . . ."

They were not allies. Robb needed the Freys, nothing more.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

2 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

It was a revenge, response for the Red Wedding, a reaction. He had no reason to it before the Red Wedding. Also, he did not brake the guest right. 

lol And the Red Wedding was done in response to Robb breaking his solemn promise.

How you can justify cannibalism but carry on about 'guest rights' is ridiculous. Either both are wrong or neither. Either both are justified or neither. 

[INCBlackbird]

Just now, watcher of the night said:

It was a revenge, response for the Red Wedding, a reaction. He had no reason to it before the Red Wedding. Also, he did not brake the guest right. 

and the red wedding was a reaction to Robb's betrayal. just because it was a reaction doesn't make it right. Like I said, it's stooping to his level, by doing that Maderly lowered himself, showed himself to be no better then Walder himself. And he might not have broken guestright but he did practically the same thing, he just waited till when they were outside his house.

and I wanted to reply this was well:

18 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

I understand that you don't understand the importance of the guest right, but you don't understand that in the story it is sacred.

I see this all the time, things are excused because "in the story" they are normal or stuff like that. people bring up honor as if it's the most important thing in the world because in the story it's considered valuable. I don't live in the story, I don't live in a society like that, I don't have those morals and I don't agree with those morals, so why should I judge situations based on those flawed morals?

I would like to add that when it comes to judging character's actions, I do consider those morals when judging the characters, because they live in a society where those "morals" are considered the norm. I'm not going to judge a slaver for being a slaver when he lives in a society where slavery is normal for example. But when it comes to Walder, he felt wronged and took revenge, I don't agree with his revenge (and in general I'm not a big fan of revenge) and I think he's a bad person for all the innocent people who died by his hands, but I don't give a crap if he killed people while being bound by guest right or not.... it doesn't make killing any better or worse.

[Buried Treasure]

 

1 hour ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

 

There was actually very few people who were there as 'guests'. Robbs army was on their way North to retake Moat Cailin. Robb's soldiers were caught unaware just like the sleeping Lannister soldiers were caught unaware at Oxcross and Riverrun.

Oxcross would be comparable to the RW - if Robb had been responsible for setting Stevron's sentries and arranging the responses to attack. But that was Stevron's job, and the fact he did not do it properly is the reason a night attack succeeded and anyone was caught asleep. Robb's soldiers need sleep too, but Tywin knew that Robb was responsible in the field so any night attacks would not find the soldiers still asleep and the attack would be less likely to succeed.

 

When Frey welcomed Robb as guest he took on the responsibility of protecting Robb from harm, that is the responsibility of a host. Not providing protection from outside threats would have been bad enough, but by launching the assault himself he betrayed a sacred trust. Robbs soldiers were part of Robb's retinue and under the same protection as their lord, but even if they had not been they were in tents provided by the Freys, drinking beer provided by the Freys which just emphasis the role of guest they had and the duty the Freys had to protect them.

[The Wolves]

9 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

How is that not just as bad as what Walder did? And that's not even taking into account the pie part....

It's not as bad as Walder. What Manderly did was nowhere near what Walder did. 

Walder had people massacred in his home while they were drunk and had no way to defend themselves against swords, knives, fire, axes, and other weapons. He also made them think that they were being forgiven for Robb's mistakes and lured them to his home. 

Manderly didnt murder any one under his roof. What he did was make sure any obligations he had as host were cut than he gave them horses pointed them in the right direction than had them haunted down and slaughtered for murdering his son and men. He also had them baked into pies and fed to their kin lol. 

[INCBlackbird]

1 minute ago, The Wolves said:

It's not as bad as Walder. What Manderly did was nowhere near what Walder did. 

Walder had people massacred in his home while they were drunk and had no way to defend themselves against swords, knives, fire, axes, and other weapons. He also made them think that they were being forgiven for Robb's mistakes and lured them to his home. 

Manderly didnt murder any one under his roof. What he did was make sure any obligations he had as host were cut than he gave them horses pointed them in the right direction than had them haunted down and slaughtered for murdering his son and men. He also had them baked into pies and fed to their kin lol. 

so walder murdered people, manderly murdered people.... again, not even taking the pie thing into account...

Tell me, if the story had been told from the Frey's perspective, would you be saying the same thing? I don't think so. honestly, I'm trying to be objective here....

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1 minute ago, Buried Treasure said:

 

Oxcross would be comparable to the RW - if Robb had been responsible for setting Stevron's sentries and arranging the responses to attack. But that was Stevron's job, and the fact he did not do it properly is the reason a night attack succeeded and anyone was caught asleep. Robb soldiers need sleep too, but Tywin knew that Robb was responsible in the field so any night attacks would not find the soldiers still asleep and the attack would be less likely to succeed.

I am not sure your point. Both were sneak attacks. Robb had constantly won battles using such tactics, of course he was eventually going to face the day when someone was sneakier than him.

1 minute ago, Buried Treasure said:

 

When Frey welcomed Robb as guest he took on the responsibility of protecting Robb from harm, that is the responsibility of a host. Not providing protection from outside threats would have been bad enough, but by launching the assault himself he betrayed a sacred host. Robbs soldiers were part of Robb's retinue and under the same protection as their lord, but even if they had not been they were in tents provided by the Freys, drinking beer provided by the Freys which just emphasis the role of guest they had and the duty the Freys had to protect them.

They were outside of the Castle. In AGOT we hear of a fight outside of Winterfell involving a Bolton and (iirc) a Glover resulting in death. Did Robb break guest rights then?

The Freys broke guest rights for the people inside the Twins, not those outside of it.

And it is not Walder's responsibility to stop the Northmen relaxing just like it was not Robb's responsibility to keep the Westerland men awake.

The Northmens poor discipline is on the Northern leaders not Walder.

 

[Ygrain]

2 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

and the red wedding was a reaction to Robb's betrayal. just because it was a reaction doesn't make it right. Like I said, it's stooping to his level, by doing that Maderly lowered himself, showed himself to be no better then Walder himself. And he might not have broken guestright but he did practically the same thing, he just waited till when they were outside his house..

People who murdered his son came to his house, lied through their teeth about what had happened right into his face, and blackmailed him into giving them his granddaughters for marriage. They had it coming.