What do you think Sansa's role is going to be in the last few books?

[Lord_Ravenstone]

28 minutes ago, lomiller said:

Fairly well laid out and entirely consistent with what GRRM has said his reasons for creating the character were in the first place.  He wanted a foil, someone who was at odds with the reset of the family, and from the beginning he depicted her as more southerner than Stark.  We also know from his leaked synopsis that his plan for the character was to have her betray her family.  I guess the claim is that part is all done now and GRRM has given her some grand new plot-line to redeem herself, but there isn't any evidence in the test to support this and as you point out the pattern of siding against family is still continuing. 

 

The show isn't exactly cannon but we know there are spoilers there from time to time, I don't think it's coincidence that the story in the Vale was written out completely and Sansa was plunked into Jeyne Pool's storyline.  GRRM's original plot-line called for Sansa to be pregnant with a child of her families enemies and the events of the show pretty look like an expedient way to get there.  I would not be surprised if she ends up pregnant in both show and book, which would be consistent with the idea that GRRM's original plot ideas for her we delayed not replaced.  She's still the traitor siding with her families enemies

Well she's not currently married to Joffrey, is she? Nor is she pregnant with a Lannister kid?

i think Sansa will wind up pregnant too but with Harry the Heir's kid who isn't exactly competing with people for the title of evil bastard.

There's nothing in the text that supports her turning into a worse person unlike with say Arya who who practically gets off on murdering her targets 

[norwaywolf123]

19 hours ago, Alaynsa Starne said:

She'll use the Vale to feed and garrison the Wall, or Winterfell if the Wall falls and the Night's Watch has to fall back to Winterfell. 

Why do the vale need to follow her? Shes a Stark not a Arryn! Is there some other Arryn we dont know about more distantly related?

[Mladen]

31 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Robert suspected the truth, months later he says he knew. At the time, despite Roberts suspicions, court consisted of he says vs she says, if Sansa were to tell the truth, in court, with all ears around, Cersei cant do anything. Like she couldnt kill Renly or Stannis, Cersei is not all powerful. Think, if Sansa told the truth how could Cersei respond?

You mean Robert believed in the word of the boy known to skin cats? Cersei is not that powerful, but in this case, Robert was the weak one. He knew the truth. Whether he said that on Trident or KL, doesn't change the fact. He knew the truth and he simply didn't care. Like with everything Robert was doing in the last years of his life, he showed what a train-wreck and moral coward he was. As for Cersei, she could have responded easily. She could have asked Arya whether she really intended for Nymeria to attack Joffrey. That would alone provide the platform that direwolves are uncontrollable, since Arya obviously didn't want Nymeria to attack him. That is the one thing most people forget and Martin had to remind us in his Dunk and Egg tales. Regardless of how morally Arya was, according to the laws of Westeros, what she did was illegal. 

31 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Disobedience, like Karstark. Good intentions, maybe, its still treasonous. ( not much of a debate, Sansa snitching killed Robert and arrested Ned, thus angering Baratheon bros and Robb) Sansas a far cry from Ramsay, but she is responsible for atrocities because of her selfish actions. Its not the best characteristic for the main character of an epic, but it is what it is,

You are now being contradictory. You can't compare her with Karstark and then speak about good intentions. Karstark jeopardized one of the most important diplomatic rules - not killing the prisoners. Sansa snitching killed Robert? You do understand that the statement itself is against the logic of timeline. Pycelle comes an hour after the breakfast Ned had with the girls with the news of the Robert's death so that argument falls like house of cards. I know she is the worst person in Westeros but when someone does something bad, I tend to think it is their fault. Ned's death is on Joffrey (and the one who manipulated him), not Sansa, Jeyne being raped by Ramsay is Ramsay's fault although, as we established, from Targaryen doom to rise of Others, everything can be traced to Sansa.

31 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Most plans fail, Petyr gets his way. I say, hmmm... 33% chance Sansa kills him 33% he dies by natural causes, and ill give 34% Lord Robert lives

All of them. This is actually GRRM's MO with laid out plans.

 

7 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Well she's not currently married to Joffrey, is she? Nor is she pregnant with a Lannister kid?

Of course she is... We don't care about ASOIAF these days

 

2 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Why do the vale need to follow her? Shes a Stark not a Arryn! Is there some other Arryn we dont know about more distantly related?

No, she is not the Arryn, but if she controls the Arryn, she controls the Vale. 

[Alaynsa Starne]

2 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Why do the vale need to follow her? Shes a Stark not a Arryn! Is there some other Arryn we dont know about more distantly related?

That 1) Presumes that Sansa can't influence an Arryn as a means to an end to get food and troops to the NW and 2) assumes that the Vale will be overwhelmingly concerned with bloodlines when the fate of humanity is at stake. 

 

[Lord_Ravenstone]

20 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Why do the vale need to follow her? Shes a Stark not a Arryn! Is there some other Arryn we dont know about more distantly related?

Because the Vale loves Ned Stark and she's Ned Stark's daugher 

she has complete influence over Sweetrobin 

she's going to marry Harry the Heir who will probably become the new lord of the Vale

[Alaynsa Starne]

8 hours ago, TheWalker77 said:

But she not cunning though. Good at everything she is taught like saying Im always straight A student in elementary and secondary school. And I dont know that many people who are smart but not good with math, but maybe it's just me

There are different forms of intelligence than just the ability to do math well at the age of 11. One can, for instance, be highly literate, resourceful, and well-spoken while also having an extremely good memory and an extraordinarily high emotional intelligence and still be bad at math. It's also possible for an individual to be extremely good at understanding math and science and theory, while also being abysmal at the aforementioned skills. It's like the difference between Sam and Jon. Sam is highly intelligent in his knowledge of history and literature and culture. Jon has much better tactical and martial skills. Both forms of intelligence are highly useful. Being brilliant in one area while deficient in another doesn't make one more or less stupid than another person, it just makes that individual better at certain things. 

Having a narrow view of different human strengths, abilities, and intelligence will make you miss out on a lot of things in the series, and just in life in general. Try being more open-minded.

[Sigella]

6 hours ago, Risto said:

(snip)

There is just one flaw in the plan... LF's pet project and Varys' pet project getting together? Never gonna happen.

(snip)

No flaw. Varys' pet crushes LF's pet. Then Dany crushes all. 

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, Risto said:

You mean Robert believed in the word of the boy known to skin cats? Cersei is not that powerful, but in this case, Robert was the weak one. He knew the truth. Whether he said that on Trident or KL, doesn't change the fact. He knew the truth and he simply didn't care. Like with everything Robert was doing in the last years of his life, he showed what a train-wreck and moral coward he was. As for Cersei, she could have responded easily. She could have asked Arya whether she really intended for Nymeria to attack Joffrey. That would alone provide the platform that direwolves are uncontrollable, since Arya obviously didn't want Nymeria to attack him. That is the one thing most people forget and Martin had to remind us in his Dunk and Egg tales. Regardless of how morally Arya was, according to the laws of Westeros, what she did was illegal. 

You are now being contradictory. You can't compare her with Karstark and then speak about good intentions. Karstark jeopardized one of the most important diplomatic rules - not killing the prisoners. Sansa snitching killed Robert? You do understand that the statement itself is against the logic of timeline. Pycelle comes an hour after the breakfast Ned had with the girls with the news of the Robert's death so that argument falls like house of cards. I know she is the worst person in Westeros but when someone does something bad, I tend to think it is their fault. Ned's death is on Joffrey (and the one who manipulated him), not Sansa, Jeyne being raped by Ramsay is Ramsay's fault although, as we established, from Targaryen doom to rise of Others, everything can be traced to Sansa.

Whether Robert knew the truth, there was not enough evidence. Sansas testimony could have shown the monster Joffrey is to court, she remained silent so the court was ignorant. Cersei certainly was the mastermind, Robert the judge, Ned the executionor, Sansa the witness. All are responsible.

Arya would respond she was being attacked, a dog would have protected her the same. According to rules of Westeros Roose was allowed to practice the first night, and Dunk wasn't the Hands kid. 

Word, I stand corrected about Roberts death, thanks.

I'm not saying Sansa is intentionally playing with marionettes like Vito Corleone, but who brought Jeyne  Poole to Cersei and Petyrs attention? By sheer leaving a carbon footprint, Sansa Stark is the worst person in Westeros. 

That's why I love her

[LongRider]

17 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

but who brought Jeyne  Poole to Cersei and Petyrs attention?

The Hound chopped Jayne's door down and had her put in Sansa's room during the rout.  Sansa, as far as she knew, had no reason not to mention it.  She did not know that Cersei would want her gone and that LF would make sex slave out of her.   But being the worst person in Westeros of course Jeyne's fate lies only on her shoulders. 

Robert decided that kids would be kids, he said he would punish Joff and for Ned to look to his own children for their punishment.  Then Cersei demanded Lady's death.  I doubt it would have mattered if Sansa had said something beside "I don't remember" as far as Lady was concerned, Cersei wanted a direwolf dead and Robert gave it to her.

[Mladen]

8 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Whether Robert knew the truth, there was not enough evidence. Sansas testimony could have shown the monster Joffrey is to court, she remained silent so the court was ignorant. Cersei certainly was the mastermind, Robert the judge, Ned the executionor, Sansa the witness. All are responsible.

Arya would respond she was being attacked, a dog would have protected her the same. According to rules of Westeros Roose was allowed to practice the first night, and Dunk wasn't the Hands kid. 

Joffrey is a crowned prince, any attack on him is illegal regardless of morality. There is a reason why Ned was so scared for Arya and hoping to find her before Lannister men. He knew in what danger Arya was. Simply, according to the law, Arya couldn't and shouldn't have attacked Joffrey. Arya was hot-headed as usual and the situation got out of control. At the end of the day, no one can deny that direwolves are dangerous. Stories have been told about what Grey wind did. And Nymeria, when we talk about her.

13 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I'm not saying Sansa is intentionally playing with marionettes like Vito Corleone, but who brought Jeyne  Poole to Cersei and Petyrs attention? By sheer leaving a carbon footprint, Sansa Stark is the worst person in Westeros. 

That's why I love her

Jesus, she sounds worse than Boltons, Freys and Tywin combined 

 

[Lord_Ravenstone]

16 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Whether Robert knew the truth, there was not enough evidence. Sansas testimony could have shown the monster Joffrey is to court, she remained silent so the court was ignorant. Cersei certainly was the mastermind, Robert the judge, Ned the executionor, Sansa the witness. All are responsible.

Arya would respond she was being attacked, a dog would have protected her the same. According to rules of Westeros Roose was allowed to practice the first night, and Dunk wasn't the Hands kid. 

Word, I stand corrected about Roberts death, thanks.

I'm not saying Sansa is intentionally playing with marionettes like Vito Corleone, but who brought Jeyne  Poole to Cersei and Petyrs attention? By sheer leaving a carbon footprint, Sansa Stark is the worst person in Westeros. 

That's why I love her

Robert even tells Ned that he he'd stake his life on Joffrey lying so Robert knew that things didn't happen the way Joffrey said they did

 

Robert's just a weak, broken man

[Hugorfonics]

3 hours ago, Risto said:

 

All of them. This is actually GRRM's MO with laid out plans.

 

   When does Petyr fail?

 

4 minutes ago, LongRider said:

The Hound chopped Jayne's door down and had her put in Sansa's room during the rout.  Sansa, as far as she knew, had no reason not to mention it.  She did not know that Cersei would want her gone and that LF would make sex slave out of her.   But being the worst person in Westeros and of course Jeyne's fate lies only on her shoulders. 

Robert decided that kids would be kids, he said he would punish Joff and for Ned to look to his own children for their punishment.  Then Cersei demanded Lady's death.  I doubt it would have mattered if Sansa had said something beside "I don't remember" as far as Lady was concerned, Cersei wanted a direwolf dead.  And Robert gave it to her.

Cersei wanted two dead brother in laws, did Robert give her them? Why hold court if you don't listen to the witnesse?

If Sansa didn't say that, Jeyne would not be in Winterfell, if Robert didn't ask for Sansas hand she'd never have left Wintefell. Cause and effect.

3 minutes ago, Risto said:

Joffrey is a crowned prince, any attack on him is illegal regardless of morality. There is a reason why Ned was so scared for Arya and hoping to find her before Lannister men. He knew in what danger Arya was. Simply, according to the law, Arya couldn't and shouldn't have attacked Joffrey. Arya was hot-headed as usual and the situation got out of control. At the end of the day, no one can deny that direwolves are dangerous. Stories have been told about what Grey wind did. And Nymeria, when we talk about her?

 

The laws not enforced. Like Tyrion slapping the prince or curb stomping the king. Its Roberts best friends daughter. I doubt shes in danger, Ned was scared because she was missing for days.

Speaking of laws, Joffrey commited attempted murder, that's a thing.

8 minutes ago, Risto said:

Jesus, she sounds worse than Boltons, Freys and Tywin combined 

 

[LongRider]

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Cersei wanted two dead brother in laws, did Robert give her them? Why hold court if you don't listen to the witnesse?

If Sansa didn't say that, Jeyne would not be in Winterfell, if Robert didn't ask for Sansas hand she'd never have left Wintefell. Cause and effect.

Two dead brother in laws????  Red herring.  Second, Sansa is in no way responsible for what happened to Jeyne.  Your cause and effect is way, way off.

[Mladen]

8 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

   When does Petyr fail?

It is not matter of the game, it is how GRRM operates. When someone lays out plans openly like that, they never go,well according to the plan. It has become an established method of GRRM. Whenever someone starts talking what will happen in the future, you can bet something will change.

10 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

The laws not enforced. Like Tyrion slapping the prince or curb stomping the king. Its Roberts best friends daughter. I doubt shes in danger, Ned was scared because she was missing for days.

We do know she was in danger, as Jaime himself admits that Arya was lucky that he didn't find her. Ned had every right to have been scared.

[Hugorfonics]

23 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Two dead brother in laws????  Red herring.  Second, Sansa is in no way responsible for what happened to Jeyne.  Your cause and effect is way, way off.

Red herring? Stannis and Renly. Those guys plotting against her.

My cause and effect there is stretched, i said so mainly to tease Risto, but I was impressed how easy it was to do. So much of westerosi current events revolves around Sansa.

18 minutes ago, Risto said:

It is not matter of the game, it is how GRRM operates. When someone lays out plans openly like that, they never go,well according to the plan. It has become an established method of GRRM. Whenever someone starts talking what will happen in the future, you can bet something will change.

We do know she was in danger, as Jaime himself admits that Arya was lucky that he didn't find her. Ned had every right to have been scared.

Sometimes, I doubt Jaime will pull a Titus Pullo (about your father) on Tommen, but Tyrion built his chain, Bran went north.

Petyrs only plan we saw from the start was the Lords Declerant, and Harry's fostermoms eating out his hands. Oh and Harrenhall. 

Word, fucking Jaime... In my younger years I hated Ned, especially because of Lady. I guess I matured. But I wonder, if Arya got maimed, would Robert back the Lannisters or Ned? I like to think Robert goes tridant on them but I kinda doubt it

[Castellan]

I think both Sansa's and Arya's stories hinge on the idea of retaining identity or being corrupted and destroyed. Sansa had a passive resistance when a prisoner in KL. But TWOW chapter shows she has morphed a bit into absorbing her fake identity and seemingly being quite happy to be Littlefinger's daughter. I would like Sansa to be a turning worm to Petyr and show, when the opportunity arises, that she is not his dupe, but I fear a certain dark author could instead have her take a more horrible path. e.g. I think she could end up killing Robert Arryn as part of Littlefinger's plan to get Harry the heir to inherit.

[Raven_Osiris]

It is time for Sansa to get her badass on! She has be meek and largely a listener, she's becoming more savvy after being at court and with LF. It's time she started to fuck shit up!!!!

[dreem24]

9 hours ago, Raven_Osiris said:

It is time for Sansa to get her badass on! She has be meek and largely a listener, she's becoming more savvy after being at court and with LF. It's time she started to fuck shit up!!!!

a naive and stupid badass i know that one should mature and that's ok but in westeros you should not have second chances that's why i like Roose Bolton  Tywin Lannister and i'm a fan of Walder frey.

 

I hope she does something and anger sweetrobin and flies it would be amusing. Or perhaps harry the heir turns out not to be a easily manipulated fool and kills her after his place as lord is secure after all why would he need littlefinger plotting in his court and a she is his daughter she needs to go.

 

[WolfQueenArya]

I honestly can't see Sansa killing anyone and if she does end up killing Little Finger and/or Sweet Robin ( whether accidentally or on purpose) then she'll become another Arya and one Arya is enough. 

I just can't see Sansa as a queen because I don't think she won't make a good queen. It's just really hard for me to see this happening... I guess if I had to really guess or pick an end plot for her it would be as an antagonist in the way that she go against her family in one last betrayal that she thinks is sneaky and cunning in the game of thrones and ends up miserable. I do not, however, see her dying as of right now because I have a hard time seeing George kill more Starks ( until the very end then I could sadly see him kill Rickon...)

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

She will kill LF, that much is obvious. And I think she will return north, I think all the Stark kids are headed back to WF. the whole story is shifting northwards.

I think she will skinchange a bird of Prey - Merlin at a guess.

I think she will eventually get it on with Sandor. To what exact outcome I am uncertain. But one thing is for sure theirs is the B&TB story here. 

And I think she'll survive the story. 

Everything else is uncertain.

She is clever, and she is observant, she is already beginning to manipulate LF. And she definitely isn't going to kill Robert Arryn. Whilst she hasn't yet put all the pieces into place regarding LF's role in her families demise, she doesn't fully trust him, and it is once she does figure out his place in it all that he'll die at her command or hand even. 

Her story has altered dramatically from the original outline, and whilst a few elements were kept at the beginning, it becomes clear as the story progresses that just as Jaime is a very different person to that outline, so is Sansa. And for both this is a MUCH better story.

Sansa's is a journey of self discovery, of agency and autonomous action. She started out as a person with non, and who didn't even grasp that she had non, she readily accepted societies role for her. But through her experiences and her own maturation she has decided that she truly wants to be her own woman. She is rejecting societies role for her, she wants to be loved for herself. All the Stark kids (+ Danny)are essentially on a coming of age arc. Each learning the skills required to navigate the world, each discovering their own identities.