What do you think Sansa's role is going to be in the last few books?

[Sansa's lemon cakes]

On 6/11/2016 at 5:28 AM, House Cambodia said:

Trace her whole character arc - immature annoying precious princess > horribly abused weak victim > strong young woman.

 

She's going to continue to become stronger and more powerful and ultimately be one of the very few survivors of the series.

I still have this deep settled fear that she'd not survive; since a lot of us are expecting her too. I guess it is more of a cautious worry, you know to expect the worst but hope for the best just in case the rug is pulled out from under her at the last moment. 

[Elisabetta Duò]

Despite the initial outline (where she was clearly doomed), now I can see her:

- survive;

- play an important role for the Starks rebirth as a House and dynasty and in the rebuilding of Winterfell, but I'm not sure about her ending up as the Lady in Winterfell (Arya and Jon are much more 'people of hte North' than her, for example - I don't know how R+L=J might impact - … and we don't know if Rickon and/or Bran will survive and what will be of them);

- possibly be the one behind Littlefinger's demise (especially if she ever learns about the lies he directly and indirectly fed Catelyn… if she ever gets to know Lysa lied to Catelyn 'thanks' to LF, I don't want to be in his shoes…and he also framed Tyrion for Bran's attempted murder, so that Catelyn kidnapped him, Tywin reacted and so on…);

-  end up as a powerful woman (Queen or not), either single (like Elizabeth I) if Tyrion dies at the very end of the series or they decide to get an annulment or married to Tyrion (like Elizabeth of York).

About this possible politic and/or personal reunion, just a few days ago I was watching some old comicon vids and there was one where GRRM was framed while Sophie Turner was answering a question about Tyrion and Sansa and I noticed a thing that I've highlighted here, might be relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JajAR42N0_w

I had already noticed, despite Tyrion's main War of the Roses inspiration being Richard the III, that their marriage seems to be somehow inspired by Henry VII / Elizabeth of York, but now I started to think about their narrative arch and I think the original outline where Sansa was doomed and Tyrion was meant to fall for Arya has been edited and now they, despite their different starting point, seem to have somehow mirroring arches, which might in fact prelude to a reunion of some kind. Just think of this (I could articulate all the single points but it would be out topic):

- little lion / little bird

- need to be truly loved 

- in a political marriage together (he's a dwarf! / she's a child!) and slow building trust

- both think there should always be a stark in winterfell

- both assume leading roles during the Blackfire battle

- both are victims of Jeoffrey's cruelty

- both show compassion / try to help the other 

- both leave KL as fugitives after Jeoffrey’s death thanks to a not 100% trustwhorty 3rd party (SerDontos/Petyr - Varys)

- both think the other didn’t commit the murder and defend this position against 3rd parties 

- Lysa Arryn wanted them both dead and they both risked to fly through the moon door

- both have to disguise themselves as bastards (Alyane Stone / Hugor Hill)  

- for both, living in disguise is meant to be an humbling experience (Sansa learns how it is to live as the bastard daughter of a low-rank noble and understands the privilege she had being a true born Stark; Tyrion learns how it is to live as a poor dwarf and realizes he was still priviliged despite his condition, being a Lannister)

- both, living in disguise, get to be kissed by surprise by someone without asking for it and without liking it  (Petyr/Penny)

- both - if GoT is to be believed 

Spoiler

learn to rebuild themselves thanks to the humbling experience

Now I doubt in GRRM's world this can be a mere coincidence, whatever he decides to do with it. I'm not sure Tyrion will survive, but whatever happens, I think they might be reunited before, as allies and/or husband and wife.

 

 

 

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[Nevets]

25 minutes ago, Elisabetta Duò said:

- possibly be the one behind Littlefinger's demise (especially if she ever learns about the lies he directly and indirectly fed Catelyn… if she ever gets to know Lysa lied to Catelyn 'thanks' to LF, I don't want to be in his shoes…and he also framed Tyrion for Bran's attempted murder, so that Catelyn kidnapped him, Tywin reacted and so on…);

I'm almost positive that she will be behind Littlefinger's demise.  I think her final coming of age will be when she realizes what Littlefinger is and destroys/kills him.  There are many ways this could happen.  He could try to kill Robert or Harry, she could discover his betrayal of Ned, or perhaps his betrayal of her best friend Jeyne Poole (Chekhov's whip-marks).  The man deserves to be taken out by his chief victim/protege.

30 minutes ago, Elisabetta Duò said:

Now I doubt in GRRM's world this can be a mere coincidence, whatever he decides to do with it. I'm not sure Tyrion will survive, but whatever happens, I think they might be reunited before, as allies and/or husband and wife.

Nice to see someone else likes Sansa/Tyrion.  i suggested a while back that they could be a Beauty & the Beast stor, indicating the possibility of them being together at the end, and got a pretty good bashing.

[Lady_of_the_black]

Not sure if this will happen or not, but I really want sansa to learn how to warg. It doesn't seem very likely, since lady is dead. 

What I think will happen.. littlefinger is marrying her to Harry the heir.. that dude is going to die somehow, I just know it. Little finger will try to wed sansa (which I think is his overall plan) but somehow she will take care of him and become the lady of the vale. The vale has a history of being ruled by a woman, this is sansas place. I think she will hold off on marrying and try to rule herself. I also think she will try very hard to bring down the lannisters, and avenge her father. 

[Elisabetta Duò]

59 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I'm almost positive that she will be behind Littlefinger's demise.  I think her final coming of age will be when she realizes what Littlefinger is and destroys/kills him.  There are many ways this could happen.  He could try to kill Robert or Harry, she could discover his betrayal of Ned, or perhaps his betrayal of her best friend Jeyne Poole (Chekhov's whip-marks).  The man deserves to be taken out by his chief victim/protege.

Nice to see someone else likes Sansa/Tyrion.  i suggested a while back that they could be a Beauty & the Beast stor, indicating the possibility of them being together at the end, and got a pretty good bashing.

Hahah well, making it short because we're heading off topic, I guess that's because you touched the 'comfort zone' of the people who like Sansa and Sandor as a couple; some of them just make their point politely, but I've seen myself that some others have to state Tyrion is horrible at any cost - even when the text doesn't allow that or their interpretation is a stretch - only to explain why Sandor would be a better choice. I can understand where Sansa/Sandor comes from, it's because of Ned's words to Sansa not mentioning the 'rank' of the future match, just someone 'brave gentle and strong' and because of the B&B stuff, but personally I don't see it. To everyone their own tastes, so I'm not arguing with anyone, it's fictional characters we're talking about and everyone has their own preferences, I'm just annoyed when I happen to read things that are plainly false or misleading (and I've read quite a few), like 'Tyrion wanted her only for her claim'… I mean:

"I want her, he realized. I want Winterfell, yes, but I want her as well, child or woman or whatever she is. I want to comfort her. I want to hear her laugh. I want her to come to me willingly, to bring me her joys and her sorrows and her lust."

Personally, I think Sandor and Tyrion embody different aspects ot the Beast and I don't see any contraddiction in this. I think Martin played around with a subject he is clearly interested in. Sandor as a Beast is strictly connected with the sexual awakening of a young teen (it seems in the show

Spoiler

he and Sansa (or Arya?) will be reunited soon because he's heading north

while Tyrion embodies the Beast in a more general way (book-Tyrion is ugly, he's rich as the Beast and noble as the Beast in one of the versions, he's the kindest to her, etc.). Another link with Tyrion is that one of the interpretation of the fairytale says it can be seen as a critique of marriages of convenience. The first versions of the tale, in fact, were written by highborn people of the ancien régime in France, where such unions were very common. For this reason, in the tale some people recognized, as a metaphor, the marriage of a very young girl with a man much older than her, without her consent. The fairytale criticizes these practices but at the same time claims that if women look for the soul of their husbands, they may find the good that is hidden behind the appearance of the beast (this is also what Septa told Sansa) or that they could  make the transformation possible themselves, thanks to their love.

Yeah, I like Sansa and Tyrion together (nice you do too) but I'm not sure he'll survive the series; when I see some parallels in their narrative arch and some historical parallels, I'm not saying that just because I like them as allies/couple, but because of objective details and I don't claim to know what GRRM will do with that.

Back on topic, if Sansa is truly is meant to be the one behind LF's demise, then I guess it has to happen at Winterfell as in the Giant prophecy (unless we assume that prophecy was irrelevant / fulfilled by Sweetrobin and Sansa playing. If we are totally mistaken and Tyrion is the Giant... oh well :-( :-(

[Sansa's lemon cakes]

I am going to put here what I have said on other websites about her; basically I do not see her dying, nor do I see has as being a master manipulator / queen. People either maximize her or minimalize her. She isn't a core character, yet not a periphery character. I do not think that she is expendable nor so I think that she is the younger and more beautiful queen. I think that if she was to die it would have been right around the time Lady died, and I do not see her ruling Winterfell since she hasn't a wolf, and Bran is first in succession and I do not want for him to die! A lot of Sansa's stans dismiss Bran, Arya and Jon. I do not want the Starks pitted against one another and I do not think she would want the Iron Throne either. I read some crackpot theory where she'd parallel Jane Gray (not to be confused with Jean Gray who Sophie Turner plays in the Marvel movies) and that didn't sit with me since she is not an unwitting pawn. She is very aware of what is going on and is safely trying to navigate with her wits and charms. But I do not see her sitting on the throne. Most foreshadowing I was able to piece together puts her either in Harrenhall with Petyr and likely breaking that curse, being a 'little bird' mistress of whispers to Bran since there is a lot of hints about her helping rebuild Winterfell. Or, living in Casterley Rock with Tyrion and keeping their political marriage alliance going. Also, smaller possibilities her marrying Gendry (since there is more foreshadowing of Arya x Jon than Arya x Gendry) or she could be with Jon, and Arya with Gendry on that other hand since there is some text alluding to that though it is more far out. As I said, I do not see her taking a dirt nap or wearing a crown at the end. I think at the end of the series would be bittersweet for her and not what she expected yet not what her stans or her haters wanted.

[Dya of Oldstones]

8 hours ago, Sansa's lemon cakes said:

I am going to put here what I have said on other websites about her; basically I do not see her dying, nor do I see has as being a master manipulator / queen. People either maximize her or minimalize her. She isn't a core character, yet not a periphery character. I do not think that she is expendable nor so I think that she is the younger and more beautiful queen. I think that if she was to die it would have been right around the time Lady died, and I do not see her ruling Winterfell since she hasn't a wolf, and Bran is first in succession and I do not want for him to die! A lot of Sansa's stans dismiss Bran, Arya and Jon. I do not want the Starks pitted against one another and I do not think she would want the Iron Throne either. I read some crackpot theory where she'd parallel Jane Gray (not to be confused with Jean Gray who Sophie Turner plays in the Marvel movies) and that didn't sit with me since she is not an unwitting pawn. She is very aware of what is going on and is safely trying to navigate with her wits and charms. But I do not see her sitting on the throne. Most foreshadowing I was able to piece together puts her either in Harrenhall with Petyr and likely breaking that curse, being a 'little bird' mistress of whispers to Bran since there is a lot of hints about her helping rebuild Winterfell. Or, living in Casterley Rock with Tyrion and keeping their political marriage alliance going. Also, smaller possibilities her marrying Gendry (since there is more foreshadowing of Arya x Jon than Arya x Gendry) or she could be with Jon, and Arya with Gendry on that other hand since there is some text alluding to that though it is more far out. As I said, I do not see her taking a dirt nap or wearing a crown at the end. I think at the end of the series would be bittersweet for her and not what she expected yet not what her stans or her haters wanted.

This comes close to how I see her as well. Because of her parallels with Elizabeth Tudor, it gets easily conflated with her being queen. I don't think GRRM necessarily makes direct parallels like that, but used part of Elizabeth's life to build her character, especially with LF in the Vale and young Elizabeth with Thomas Seymour. He does that with a lot of his characters, and not everyone will be a king or queen by the end. In spite of being slightly more of a Sansa fan, I see more queen foreshadowing in the books in Arya's story, but that doesn't mean I think she's going to be queen either.

I have a hard time seeing her surviving an actual marriage with Tyrion even though I love both characters. I don't think there's time enough in the books for enough of a redemption arc for him after killing Shae, and I'm even nervous about Penny's survival now. Maybe I've watched too many CSI and crime drama shows, but I ship him with the Citadel at this point, or some other way he can make use of his gifts and cause the least amount of harm to himself or others. Even politically, there's problems there that will take too long to discuss here but the tl;dr is it may take at least a generation or two to get Starks and Lannisters cooled down enough to think about marriage and interdynastic marriages can cause problems with inheritance drama and be seen as a threat by a ruling monarch. I'm sure the pre RR ones were part of what fueled Aerys II Targaryen's paranoia.

I don't see her going back South right away, so KL is out until there's a regime change or she's DOA. I see her either heading North or having a role to play in the Riverlands, and some of the threads coming up about her connection to Harrenhal show she could end up there. I'm seeing her as more of an advisor or possibly regent to Bran (that kid ain't getting stuck to no tree any time soon).

Even before the Vale, she always had a pretty good grasp of bigger picture stuff with recognizing house sigils and some sense of how they interacted with one another, so I can definitely see playing a diplomatic role among other things.

Overall, I'm more of a Team Stark person and it will be interesting to see how her role plays out there. Too many cliffhangers and loose ends to get more specific.

 

 

[Karmarni]

On 6/14/2016 at 8:29 PM, Elisabetta Duò said:

can understand where Sansa/Sandor comes from, it's because of Ned's words to Sansa not mentioning the 'rank' of the future match, just someone 'brave gentle and strong' and because of the B&B stuff, but personally I don't see it.

No, it’s not Ned’s words that has created a Sandor and Sansa connection. It’s George R.R. Martin creating a dynamic between the two characters throughout their interactions in AGoT and ACoK. Sandor and Sansa are alone each time. He shares intimate details of his life with her and she comforts him. She roots for him at the tourney and says she “knew” he’d win. He helps her survive King’s Landing under the Lannisters who have her captive; he does so by word and by deed. He eventually comes to her bed chamber to take her with him. She wonders later, lying awake in bed, if she should have gone with him. She later says, “I wish the Hound were here.”

So, no, not Ned’s words at all. Ned’s words are foreshadowing. The connection, the Sandor and Sansa connection, comes from the details of their interactions together; together and alone, where they can be themselves. She “not a lady” and he more than just not a knight.

That’s not an “interpretation”, but a close reading of the text.

I don’t assign “taste” to the novels. I assign, as a good literary reader, the guidance of the author, as he writes, the characters as they express themselves, the plot and the symbols/metaphors that come to pass as the story unfolds. I am annoyed when these basics of literary analysis are forgotten or, perhaps, purposefully avoided.

For instance, in the quote above:

Quote

 

things that are plainly false or misleading (and I've read quite a few), like 'Tyrion wanted her only for her claim'… I mean:

"I want her, he realized. I want Winterfell, yes, but I want her as well, child or woman or whatever she is. I want to comfort her. I want to hear her laugh. I want her to come to me willingly, to bring me her joys and her sorrows and her lust."

 

This is not a high moment for Tyrion. As someone who “like(s) Sansa and Tyrion together” I suggest using another quote for an example. This quote has him saying he wants Winterfell and he wants to bed her. He wants to have her “come to me willingly”. And how can that ever be, how can Tyrion genuinely think that Sansa, a prisoner of the Lannisters, forced to marry him, would bring him “her joys and her sorrows and her lust.” Sansa expresses herself in her encounter in their marriage bed and in their ensuing marriage time together and negates each of these. She is still a prisoner and he her captor, whether Tyrion wants to admit it to himself or not. He wanted the pretty bride to love him, genuinely. And that is a great over-stepping of the reality of the situation and a symbol of how Tyrion can easily lie to himself.

On 6/14/2016 at 8:29 PM, Elisabetta Duò said:

Sandor as a Beast is strictly connected with the sexual awakening

“Strictly connected with the sexual awakening” is a gross understatement. Sandor is more to Sansa than a means to her sexual awakening. He provided advice, see the aforementioned “I wish the Hound were here” when she has to meet with Margaery, and his protection of her vis-a-vis Joffrey. He may, indeed, later precipitate her sexual awareness, but that is certainly not the only thing he does.

I also want to address the “he's the kindest to her”, this is always in the context of ‘of the Lannisters, Tyrion is the kindest to Sansa.’ That is certainly not high praise.

I do not see Sansa and Tyrion as intimate allies or "a couple." That cannot be said of Sansa and Sandor. They were already secret allies, though she was mostly unaware until he left King's Landing, for two books. And her thoughts that venture into seeing Sandor replace Tyrion in her marriage bed, her multiple thoughts of their not-really kiss suggest that there will be an ultimate resolution to her sexual interest in Sandor.
 

[Elisabetta Duò]

5 hours ago, Karmarni said:

It’s George R.R. Martin creating a dynamic between the two characters throughout their interactions in AGoT and ACoK.

I was just making it quick because I thought it would be out of topic go go in depth as you did. I mentioned the first 2 examples of things I've seen were mentioned by Sansa/Sandor fans themselves (maybe not you, but I've read it), not the only ones I think or they think relevant or the most relevant. I'm not denying their dynamic was interesting and set on purpose, nor I'm saying I know what GRRM will make of one dynamic or the other (expecially when his idea about Sansa's narrative arch changed so much during the years), I'm not the integralist here.

There is as you said a certain dynamic, it depends of what each of us makes out of it and why GRRM set it and what purpose had in the original outline and what purpuse we think it will have in the final version hence in the series.

I think the Hound represents the Beast especially when it comes to her sexual awakening and that's why there has always been a 'forceful' component in their relationship (not saying he wasn't kind to her, but he didn't always respect her personal space even when it made her uncomfortable and and he always spoke to her in assertive ways).

At the same time, I think he is the replacement of the wolf she lost, not meaning that he represents any tie with the North, of course, but meaning that he is to her a 'faithful dog', a protector, as the direwolves protect all the Stak children.

All in all, the debate about the role fo Sandor Iwould need  a very loooong and complext speech, but it would be a speech for a Sandor/Sansa thread.

7 hours ago, Karmarni said:

her thoughts that venture into seeing Sandor replace Tyrion in her marriage bed ,

I've read this by SanSan fans in the various Sansa/Sandor threads, I guess it refers to that famous ASOS quote, I remember the quote from the books, It was another one of so many arguments I found misleading.

"The memory of her own wedding night with Tyrion was much with her. In the dark, I am the Knight of Flowers, he had said. I could be good to you. But that was only another Lannister lie. A dog can smell a lie, you know, the Hound had told her once. She could almost hear the rough rasp of his voice. Look around you, and take a good whiff. They're all liars here, and every one better than you. She wondered what had become of Sandor Clegane.

Now the first thing here, analyzing the quote from the beginning, is that Sansa think about her sad wedding night without any thought about Tyrion being ugly or disgusting ... we are in her POV, she thinks of their wedding night and she’s not thinking ‘he said he could be good to me but I find him repulsive’ (as she once would), she's saying 'he said he could be good to me but he lied', she's complaining because, by her point of view, he lied to her, he said he could be good to her but shortly after that, the news came that Robb and Catelyn had been murdered and even if he had no part in it, it was still his family. 

And that's the reason why the Hound comes to her mind.. because it was the Hound who always talked about smelling lies, everyone being a liar, knights not being knights, etc. etc. ... and by her point of view, disillused as she is now, she thinks he was right.That's the connection she makes in her mind and I think the text is pretty clear about that. It's her thoughts about 'lies' and 'liars' that bring her to the Hound, not the wedding night idea.

She thinks of her wedding night with 'Tyrion' (he calls him Tyrion in her mind, in the past she usually called him 'the Imp' in her mind and my Lord while speaking, so much that he was constantly reminding her to call him Tyion and not my Lord) => she dismisses the whole idea because 'he lied' to her => she thinks of the Hound who was the one who once told her that everyone in KL was a liar ('a dog can smell a lie', etc.). This is the logical unfolding, step by step, of her thoughts. Only at this point, being reminded of him, she wonders what became of him and of course she cares about that, nobody denies that.

Now, reduce this whole concept in "Sandor replace Tyrion in her marriage bed " is very misleading to me.

With this, I'm not denying Sandor is connected with Sansa's awakening sexuality (i could more easily see Sandor as the one who has her virginity than her endgame husband), I just think it was more the fantasy of a girl, like the fantasies 90% of young girls have about being taken 'forcefully' or have it rough with a strong man.

I may be wrong about the final outcome, as I said I'm not an integralist and I wouldn't scream in despair if Sandor had her maidenhood and/or if she ended up with him (the two things are obvioulsy not necessarily connected), I'm far too old for that. It doesn't change that I believe the one I've shortly explained is the correct intespretation of that ASOS passage, whether she ends up with Sandor or not: if the final outcome SanSan fans believe in proves to be correct, it doesn't mean any single theory in support of that outcome was correct too.

Personally SanSan is not my cup of tea but I'm not disputing other people tastes, I just think some opinions are just opinions and to state them as if they were 'facts' here or in threads were all the people think the same and compliment each other about how right they are and any different opinion is treated condiscendly is not the right approach imo and to take part in threads is something I'm not interested in. As I said, I chose to not to post in those threads after seeing how people treated the ones who thought differently.

I have no interest in saying that my fave character is perfect, never makes mistakes, that he's everything (i'm not a even a A+J=T supporter), etc. and I'm not even saying 'I know' Tyrion will end up with Sansa (I would find it arrogant and I don't even know if he will live) but as I am honest enough to see his flaws (as any other character's ones) and I don't blindly believe anything 'glorious' about him, at the same time I do see a mirroring path here in Tyrion and Sansa's narrative arches for the reasons I pointed out (and a couple of others I forgot to list) whatever GRRM does (or does not) with it.

I'm afrain I haven't seen the same level of intellectual honesty in a good part of SanSan fans: some of them are quite blind about Sandor's flaws and just talk sh*** about Tyrion to go like 'See? Sandor would be better'. I'm not interested in this kind of debate because I think the bar has been set quite low. Of course it's a personal opinion, it's just to explain why I don't post on those threads: different opinions are like 1% of the total posts and it's this way because of the aggressivness of the SanSan fans replies.They don't let people breath until those people, tired, stop posting.

Btw, even in the first outline of the books Tyrion was supposed to befriend Sansa, so if you don't see them as 'allies' (they already were set on that path in KL just, if the murder didn't happen) you should tell that to GRRM who decided that instead they were.

5 hours ago, Karmarni said:

I also want to address the “he's the kindest to her”, this is always in the context of ‘of the Lannisters, Tyrion is the kindest to Sansa.’ That is certainly not high praise.

No, I meant the kindest man of all (escluding her relatives, etc.). You are free to disagree and we could stay here for hours 'battling' on quotes and POV thoughts and interpretations, but it would be out of topic, I guess in this thread we just have to agree to disagree.

5 hours ago, Karmarni said:

This quote has him saying he wants Winterfell and he wants to bed her. He wants to have her “come to me willingly”

I just plainly disagree.

I want to comfort her. I want to hear her laugh. I want her to come to me willingly, to bring me her joys and her sorrows and her lust.

When you only want Winterfell and bed the girl, you don't give a sh** about conforting her, making her smile and sharing her sorrows (and he didn't need to share her sorrows to be her lover if so he wanted...nor he expected that if he shared her sorrows she would come to him willingly... he was just genuinely interested in sharing her sorrows).You want these things only when you care.

There are many other relevant quotes about it, I agree, but this one is relevant. 

 I really like the quote because it was quite honest and realistic, because his mind is a mess and it's all entwined, as it happens in real life...if he went like 'I don't care about Winterfell, I'm blind to her being comely, I just love her pretty soul and my heart aches at her smile', it would be stupid and painful to read... while this way, it's more 'real', it's a summary of the feelings he harbors for her explained in many other passages...he's not blind and sees her beauty and he wishes she could desire him, at the same tiem he understands he'll get Winterfell with her, but at the same times, it pains him to see her sad, he genuinely cares about her, he would like to be loved by her and he would like to have her in general as a partner of his life, it's not just about bedding her.

 

[Elisabetta Duò]

On 15/6/2016 at 0:28 AM, Nevets said:

she could discover his betrayal of Ned,

This is what I would like the most. Not sure it's the most likely scenario, though.

[Elisabetta Duò]

On 15/6/2016 at 5:36 PM, Sansa's lemon cakes said:

if she was to die it would have been right around the time Lady died,

In the original outline Lady died to embody the fracture between Sansa and the North, her tie with the north died (confirmed by GRRM ins some interview), but as we read, she was supposed to live for a long time after Lady died (she was supposed be willing to love in KL, to marry jeaoffrey, have his kids and align herself with the lannisters and her husband). So the death of Lady was never meant to be linked to Sansa's death. GRRM kept Lady's death even after changing his mind about Sansa's arc, so I guess Lady's death still embodies the fracture between Sansa and the North, in different ways (she was initally willing to go to KL and she actually stayed there for a long time). Lady's death is, for example, one of the reasons why I don't think Sansa will end up as the lady of Winterfell.

Sansa is also strongly connected with birds in many ways, it would be interesting to explore this topic further (not meaning she'll end up in the Vale for that, just it would be interesting)

[Karmarni]

18 minutes ago, Elisabetta Duò said:

Now, reduce this whole concept in "Sandor replace Tyrion in her marriage bed " is very misleading to me.

No, that is not the quote. The Sandor replacing Tyrion is from this quote below from AFfC from her dream, directly after Marillion's attempted attack, Sansa thinking at first the Hound had come to save her, and instead, of course, it's Lothor Brune. But she learns the subtext of the "song" that Sandor was asking for from Marillion. The one the Hound thought was funny, because it flew over her head.

Quote

And she dreamed of her wedding night too, of Tyrion's eyes devouring her as she undressed. Only then he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be, and when he climbed into the bed his face was scarred only on one side. "I'll have a song from you," he rasped.

10 hours ago, Karmarni said:

He wants to have her “come to me willingly”. And how can that ever be, how can Tyrion genuinely think that Sansa, a prisoner of the Lannisters, forced to marry him, would bring him “her joys and her sorrows and her lust.”

I addressed the rest here. If he truly cared, he could have taken her home to Winterfell, which he said he wanted. Or better yet, realized that marrying her would be a mistake and was him bowing down once again to his father. But, that's not the story . . .

18 minutes ago, Elisabetta Duò said:

You want these things only when you care.

 

18 minutes ago, Elisabetta Duò said:

it pains him to see her sad, he genuinely cares about her, he would like to be loved by her and he would like to have her in general as a partner of his life, it's not just about bedding her.

But it's ALL ABOUT HIM. What he wants from her. Never considering, except when he tried to bed her, that she would "never" want him.

[Elisabetta Duò]

1 hour ago, Karmarni said:

No, that is not the quote. The Sandor replacing Tyrion is from this quote below from AFfC from her dream, directly after Marillion's attempted attack, Sansa thinking at first the Hound had come to save her, and instead, of course, it's Lothor Brune. But she learns the subtext of the "song" that Sandor was asking for from Marillion. The one the Hound thought was funny, because it flew over her head.

I addressed the rest here. If he truly cared, he could have taken her home to Winterfell, which he said he wanted. Or better yet, realized that marrying her would be a mistake and was him bowing down once again to his father. But, that's not the story . . .

 

But it's ALL ABOUT HIM. What he wants from her. Never considering, except when he tried to bed her, that she would "never" want him.

Oh, that quote, I didn't think of it because I didn't give it more relevance (right or wrong that I am) because I only saw in that the usual Sandor = sexual awakening connection. It might be a good SanSan point if I am wrong and it's not just about the first fantasies and sexual desires of a teen, which is my personal take on it, as I've said.

That said, I strongly disagree about all the other points you made, no one exluded (he didn't send her home - as if he could, 'it's all about him', etc .etc.). I could reply point by point but first of all, we are way off topic (I was surprised to see another SanSan reply) and secondarily, as I've previously said, the exact reason why I never wrote in SanSan threads is just because I knew I would find it difficult to discuss with SanSan fans, I've read all those thread and I had the chance to see - my personal opinion - that it doesn't matter what you say, SanSan fans never concede a single point and keep replying till the other person is tired of spending their time in the thread and let them have the last word. i guess it's easy to be 100% right when you're the only one left. I had polite disagreements with many people, discussing ideas and stuff, about Daenerys and her skills as a political leader, about A+T=J, about many things, but I have never seen people as opinionated and less inclined to listen to people who think differently as the ones I've seen in SanSan threads. Given that SanSan is definitely not my main ASOIAF interest (I'm interested in the ASOIAFcharacters-historical figures and literary figures parallels, in Tyrion as a character and in his narrative arch, in Arya's, Sansa's and Jamie's narrative arcs, in some other minor characters, in factual history behind ASOIAF, etc.) I'm not gonna spend my afternoon discussing it, especially when I think that even if I came here with GRRM in person saying you're partly wrong, it wouldn't matter. I'm fine with you having the last word, even if I disagree with you. Have a nice continuation.

[Le Cygne]

On 4/8/2016 at 11:17 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

She will kill LF, that much is obvious. And I think she will return north, I think all the Stark kids are headed back to WF. the whole story is shifting northwards.

I think she will skinchange a bird of Prey - Merlin at a guess.

I think she will eventually get it on with Sandor. To what exact outcome I am uncertain. But one thing is for sure theirs is the B&TB story here. 

And I think she'll survive the story. 

Everything else is uncertain.

She is clever, and she is observant, she is already beginning to manipulate LF. And she definitely isn't going to kill Robert Arryn. Whilst she hasn't yet put all the pieces into place regarding LF's role in her families demise, she doesn't fully trust him, and it is once she does figure out his place in it all that he'll die at her command or hand even. 

Her story has altered dramatically from the original outline, and whilst a few elements were kept at the beginning, it becomes clear as the story progresses that just as Jaime is a very different person to that outline, so is Sansa. And for both this is a MUCH better story.

Sansa's is a journey of self discovery, of agency and autonomous action. She started out as a person with non, and who didn't even grasp that she had non, she readily accepted societies role for her. But through her experiences and her own maturation she has decided that she truly wants to be her own woman. She is rejecting societies role for her, she wants to be loved for herself. All the Stark kids (+ Danny)are essentially on a coming of age arc. Each learning the skills required to navigate the world, each discovering their own identities. 

Yes, all of this, although I would say not a bird of prey, a songbird. Fun fact, Sandor is the only character who called Sansa a bird and associates her with flight. There are hints that Sandor has replaced Lady, and he seems to intuitively pick up Sansa is a warg.

Little bird: 40 times he said "little" - and 22 times were calling Sansa little bird! He called her little bird 6 times in their last scene together. He likes saying pretty, too, when it comes to the little bird. Once she was just the pretty bird. The little bird, your pretty sister.

Flight: "And what’s Joff's little bird doing flying down the serpentine in the black of night?" Another time, "The little bird thinks she has wings, does she?" And then, "Now fly away, little bird." He catches her before she can fall, over and over, she's not ready to fly yet. And when he learns she escaped the forced "mockery of a marriage" (as she puts it), "The little bird flew away, did she?"

I agree they will get it on, there are lots of sex and marriage references in their story. Her dream, a thousand times, of a tall strong man giving her his cloak and kissing her. His bloody cloak, which she thinks about often is classic consummation symbolism. And she places him in the marriage bed, in her thoughts and dreams, for how he'd kissed her, a kiss she gives him.

So he's a big part of her story, he's in nearly every one of her chapters, often not in person, but because Sansa places him there, in her thoughts and dreams. And even when he's not explicitly referenced, there are callbacks to earlier scenes with direct wording from those scenes.

As for LF's death, I think he plays in there, too. She often uses the memory of Sandor to oppose Littlefinger in her thoughts. Sandor is Sansa making a choice, while LF is making choices for her. And Sandor is her Beast, this is her story, and these are her desires.

Your last paragraph about her is beautiful. I think they will team up, to do something good (and for a little happiness, "get her a dog, she'll be happier for it").

[Le Cygne]

On 6/16/2016 at 11:00 PM, Karmarni said:

It’s George R.R. Martin creating a dynamic between the two characters throughout their interactions in AGoT and ACoK. Sandor and Sansa are alone each time. He shares intimate details of his life with her and she comforts him. She roots for him at the tourney and says she “knew” he’d win. He helps her survive King’s Landing under the Lannisters who have her captive; he does so by word and by deed. He eventually comes to her bed chamber to take her with him. She wonders later, lying awake in bed, if she should have gone with him. She later says, “I wish the Hound were here.”...

I do not see Sansa and Tyrion as intimate allies or "a couple." That cannot be said of Sansa and Sandor. They were already secret allies, though she was mostly unaware until he left King's Landing, for two books. And her thoughts that venture into seeing Sandor replace Tyrion in her marriage bed, her multiple thoughts of their not-really kiss suggest that there will be an ultimate resolution to her sexual interest in Sandor.

Karmarni, all great points in both posts, and very nicely made. The author has said there's more to come, but just the story itself, he's very important to her, and it's clear there's more to come.

And to tag onto the point @The Weirwoods Eyes made about Sansa's journey of self-discovery, Sandor is a very big part of that. She wants to choose, and she's writing her own "kissing story."

(Also another great line, "she'll be singing to the Stranger, begging for his kiss"!)

So I think that will play a big part in her story to come.

[chrisdaw]

She's going to turn master player, the way of a Lannister, not the way of Starks. And Sandor is in the end going to choose Arya and Jon over her.

[House Cambodia]

35 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

She's going to turn master player, the way of a Lannister, not the way of Starks. And Sandor is in the end going to choose Arya and Jon over her.

Do you see Sandoe lasting that long? I think that now he's a redeemed character, a noble death can't be far away.

[chrisdaw]

He'll last until Jon makes it south and will be key to Jon winning across the trident, which will be very late in the game, possibly the Others are in the north or on Jon's tail at that stage. Past that point I haven't made out any foreshadowing for Sandor, including none for his death. Which is odd I guess, maybe he survives the series. There's not really any historic parallels for him either that come to mind besides the Galladon legend. If maybe we get told how Ser Galladon died or Meribald's dog if he's dead or dies we'll have something to go on.

[YOVMO]

I think this little bird has one more song to sing. She has already been pivotal in many ways. As mentioned above: her engagement to Joff, tipping Ned off about the bastardry her role in Lysa's death and LF's General scheming.

But there is more. She plays a formative role in the early stages of the Hound's redemption arc and, perhaps most importantly, she has been our lens into the grit and nihilistic reality of this world. 

As readers, in a way, we all go through a Sansa-like transformation when reading ASOIAF. In the same way that Sansa has to realize the hollow nature of chivalry and court pageantry and the songs she loved so dearly and confront the harsh realities of the world around her, leaving her child like innocence behind and realizing her old thoughts were immature and foolish, we readers are leaving behind the old tropes of fantasy literature (like LOTR) and realizing that while we loved it it too was childish and foolish and is now being replaced with a harder reality.

As fantasy readers we are Sansa. We grew up loving the songs, but the moment they took off Ned Stark's head we entered a world where everything was different.

That said, I do believe Sansa will see the end of the story as the parallel to the reader (hopefully we see the end of the story) and be very much changed. My bet is that her arc leads her to eventually killing LF and then, when everything is over, becoming a silent sister.

[House Cambodia]

54 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

As readers, in a way, we all go through a Sansa-like transformation when reading ASOIAF. In the same way that Sansa has to realize the hollow nature of chivalry and court pageantry and the songs she loved so dearly and confront the harsh realities of the world around her, leaving her child like innocence behind and realizing her old thoughts were immature and foolish, we readers are leaving behind the old tropes of fantasy literature (like LOTR) and realizing that while we loved it it too was childish and foolish and is now being replaced with a harder reality.

As fantasy readers we are Sansa. We grew up loving the songs, but the moment they took off Ned Stark's head we entered a world where everything was different.

I like that. Top marks!