What do you think Sansa's role is going to be in the last few books?

[zandru]

@Old Gimlet eye: "Sandor isn't stupid. If Sansa has to lie and manipulate to survive and to bring down people like LF, I'm sure Sandor would understand the context."

Surely. However, if Sansa is lying TO HIM, in order to manipulate him, the old dog will smell that lie. As chrisdaw says, she's on the Littlefinger path.

I'm seeing in Sansa's vivid "recollection" of the UnKiss a growing ability to actually change how she remembers situations, to her own benefit. Not quite becoming delusional yet like Cersei, but Sansa could get much better at it fast by her association with slimy Petyr Baelish and all the shameful situations she has to adjust to justify what she does for him.

As I keep emphasizing, Sansa has totally changed the bedroom encounter during the Battle of the Blackwater within her own mind, making herself the brave sexy heroine. In doing so, she has totally - TOTALLY!! - discounted the anguish that Sandor was experiencing and how she made it worse for him, instead of helping him in any way. She hid under the covers while that traumatized, bleeding man left her room in tears. She failed him, and she doesn't seem even capable of seeing it. Just as she will apparently never realize just how much he lost, how much he gave up, in the hopes of saving her that night.

[Le Cygne]

Well, she was afraid herself. And he blames himself. The kiss is what she wished happened, that says a lot right there.

She's in over her head with LF, and something bad is about to go down. The good thing is, Sandor is right nearby.

How bad, we'll see. Hopefully not too bad. Sandor won't care, as long as she's honest with him, and I think she will be.

[Le Cygne]

2 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

Once, Sandor leaves the QI I do expect him to be a changed man in some significant respects. That said, I don't see him becoming some kind of Lancel Lannister holier than thou type either. Even if Sansa were to become a bit grayer, Sandor kicking her to the curb has about as much of a chance as a kerosene cat in hell with gasoline drawers on. 

Post QI Sandor might reject Sansa if she became like Cersei level evil. And I don't see that happening.

Sandor was at his best when he lied to Joffrey to protect Sansa and when he lied again to Boros Blount about when Sansa had went to the godswood and finally when during the the Blackwater riot when he seemingly chose to protect Sansa over Joffrey to whom his feudal duties were owed.

Sandor isn't stupid. If Sansa has to lie and manipulate to survive and to bring down people like LF, I'm sure Sandor would understand the context.

I don't see post-QI Sandor having some rigid Kantian view about lying.

Yeah, all of this. I might actually enjoy it if he told Sansa to kiss his arse (if she turned evil).

But he's twitterpated, it would take a lot for him to turn off her. And I don't think she'll go to the dark side.

[OldGimletEye]

6 hours ago, zandru said:

@Old Gimlet eye: "Sandor isn't stupid. If Sansa has to lie and manipulate to survive and to bring down people like LF, I'm sure Sandor would understand the context."

Surely. However, if Sansa is lying TO HIM, in order to manipulate him, the old dog will smell that lie. As chrisdaw says, she's on the Littlefinger path.

 

Except why would Sansa lie to Sandor? You haven't given a plausible reason for that.

6 hours ago, zandru said:

I'm seeing in Sansa's vivid "recollection" of the UnKiss a growing ability to actually change how she remembers situations, to her own benefit. Not quite becoming delusional yet like Cersei, but Sansa could get much better at it fast by her association with slimy Petyr Baelish and all the shameful situations she has to adjust to justify what she does for him.

As I keep emphasizing, Sansa has totally changed the bedroom encounter during the Battle of the Blackwater within her own mind, making herself the brave sexy heroine. In doing so, she has totally - TOTALLY!! - discounted the anguish that Sandor was experiencing and how she made it worse for him, instead of helping him in any way. She hid under the covers while that traumatized, bleeding man left her room in tears. She failed him, and she doesn't seem even capable of seeing it. Just as she will apparently never realize just how much he lost, how much he gave up, in the hopes of saving her that night.

Emphasize all you want. I think your preferred explanation here is well uh....a bunch of crap.

[Maia]

9 hours ago, zandru said:

 She hid under the covers while that traumatized, bleeding man left her room in tears. She failed him, and she doesn't seem even capable of seeing it.

What?!!! Seriously, WTF? The dude broke into her room with half-mind towards raping her, put a knife at her throat, etc.  Given all that, Sansa has displayed remarkable level of empathy and level-headedness. Yes, she did help him, he is much better emotionally when he appears again. And she was only 12, not a trained and experienced therapist that Sandor clearly needed.

Quote

Just as she will apparently never realize just how much he lost, how much he gave up, in the hopes of saving her that night.

WTF squared?! Sandor didn't give anything up, he broke in battle. Just like Meribald described it. The fire broke him. And yes, coming to the Red Keep was something of a risk, but then, the Hound's intentions were unformed and confused. He hid in Sansa's room and got drunk, he manhandled her when she came in,etc. His intentions were very unclear even to himself, IMHO, let alone to terrified Sansa. And if she had gone with him, she wouldn't have been  safe. Not from him and certainly not from people looking for her. The Hound was rather conspicious and recognized by people left and right when he traveled around with Arya, after all. It is just that he was rather low-priority for Lannisters and their allies at the time. But if he had Sansa with him - who is rather  conspicious herself, they would have been tracked down very quickly.

And SanSan here or there - honestly, I am rather bored with the theory at this point, Sandor is _not_ a replacement for proper skin-changing, unless she manages to do to him what Bran does to Hodor, which is highly unlikely. And would be rather dark and perverted to boot, Varamyr territory, or worse. But anyway, I think that Sansa's connection to the old dog in château Baelish wasn't some foreshadowing of SanSan, but an indication of Sansa's budding skin-changing abilities. After all, according to Varamyr, dogs are the easiest animals to skin-change into - for a warg, that is. 

[Le Cygne]

He came to her room to rescue her. He clearly said so, as did Sansa afterwards. This from the app:

Quote

"During the Battle of the Blackwater, Clegane leads a force attempting to hold the King's Gate, but is unable to fulfill his duties due to his fear of the burning wildfire raging on the river and on the docks. Instead, he finds his way to Sansa Stark's chambers, where he forces her to sing him a song while trying to work up the courage to take her with him out of the city. Her fear of him -- as well as her song -- makes him leave without her..."

This from Sandor:

Quote

"I could keep you safe. They’re all afraid of me. No one would hurt you again, or I’d kill them."

This from Sansa:

Quote

I wish the Hound were here. The night of the battle, Sandor Clegane had come to her chambers to take her from the city, but Sansa had refused. Sometimes she lay awake at night, wondering if she’d been wise. She had his stained white cloak hidden in a cedar chest beneath her summer silks. She could not say why she’d kept it. The Hound had turned craven, she heard it said; at the height of the battle, he got so drunk the Imp had to take his men. But Sansa understood. She knew the secret of his burned face. It was only the fire he feared. That night, the wildfire had set the river itself ablaze, and filled the very air with green flame. Even in the castle, Sansa had been afraid. Outside… she could scarcely imagine it.

He came there to rescue her. And the fire got to him, but he broke with Joffrey because he hurt Sansa (hence his line above). And she certainly would have been safer with Sandor (who had lots of money at the time), than the grave danger she found herself in since he left. Since he left, she has faced several rape threats she barely escaped, and if she escapes LF without being raped, she'll be quite lucky. And threats to her life, too, the Lannisters would have killed her once they got an heir, and LF framed her for regicide so now she has a price on her head.

Sansa and Sandor both regret the separation. She regrets that "he left me" and he regrets "leaving her"... that's what both characters are saying. Sansa is "shipping" herself with Sandor, her last chapter was a Hound-a-palooza. She pretended they kissed and placed him in the marriage bed because of how he kissed her. Then said she hopes to dream a sweet dream and wake to dogs barking. And more. Dogs were barking before she had her dream of the Hound in bed with her, with the hound in bed with her! When she's lonely, she misses hounds! That's all about him.

Sansa sees Sandor as her protector, she thought this right before he came to her room, after Cersei scared her about rape, he is the one who rescues her from rapists (he calls rapists rats): "I would be gladder if it were the Hound, Sansa thought. Harsh as he was, she did not believe Sandor Clegane would let any harm come to her." And she sees Sandor as her protector after that, too, she wants him to rescue her so badly, she imagines he is there to rescue her from a rapist again: "It was Lothor Brune's voice, she realized. Not the Hound's, no, how could it be?"

So yeah, there's a level of trust, and they miss each other. Seems like it's building to something.

(put a quote below)

[Karmarni]

I think the key to understanding what is happening with Sandor and with Sansa is that it is very much a subtext story. Of course, there's the plot and dialogue that's happening, moving the story forward, but the underlying contextual story is a story of romance. Not the kiddie flowers, chocolate and perfume kind, either. It fits its time period and its unique atmosphere of a fantasy novel that has medieval overtones. They are a knight and his lady. Only he's not a knight and currently, she's pretending to be a bastard.

GRRM from the SSM: [Will Sandor and Sansa meet?] "Why, the Hound is dead, and Sansa may be dead as well. There's only Alayne Stone." http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2008/04 This in and of itself is an example of reading the words and knowing that's just not true - that's subtext. And a good joke too.

Right now in the novels, the bird imagery and the dog imagery surrounding Sansa is high. She has both. What do we make of it? That something will come of it is obvious, but for now, they're ideas the reader should hold in their mind. Close reading, the kind that entertains the words, spins them around, takes them out and really looks at them, that's the kind of reading that benefits from not assigning values immediately but looking at them objectively, locating the style, technique, the craft of the writing.

Doing this helps in considering what happens next with Sansa. She's still currently Alayne, proud of herself for suggesting to Littlefinger that he hold a tourney in the Vale, making the winners Winged Knights to protect Sweetrobin. Littlefinger is using this for his own measures. He's still plotting and planning and not including Alayne in on it. Her awareness level needs to ramp up. That's my take on the character. She has many of the pieces to take him down but she hasn't put them all together. When she does, and I think she'll need help getting there, like a good swift spearing truth from the Hound, she will 'wake up' to the reality that surrounds her and the man, the brothel-owner, user and manipulator of women, that she is currently with. 

 

[lujo]

Something that's been on my mind for a long time, call it valryan tifoil, shade of the evening out of a cracked pot theory, or not, because it's not deep into misticism or imagery but rather somewhat shlocky writing:

There's a bunch of stuff obscurely hinted at concerning the Whent and Lothston families, and the Whent family is way more obscure than it has any reason to be (compared to other families). What's the exact relationship between Minisa Whent, grandmother to, like, half the OG cast, and the batty lady Whent in Harrenhal? The Whent seat features rather prominently in the books, and we know way too little about the family. This is known to be suspicious, considering we get to know, like, which hand random small lords use to scratch their scrotum with. Sansa is, among other things, a Whent, by way of her maternal grandmother, and I think that is going to tie into the following:

There's something else that's very suspicious that I never really see linked to Sansa, and that is that it's actually quite likely that none of the three Kingsguard chaps died at the Tower of Joy. Dayne alone could have killed all the Stark guys by himself, and he had Gerold Hihtower and Oswell Whent there with him. Check out all the "He could kill the X of you with one hand while taking a leak with the other" comments about that generation of the Kingsguard. From what we've seen of Selmy and Jaime's admiration of the bunch of them it's quite likely that they could actually do it (Jaime admiring someone for swordsmanship is quite something, he's been an arrogant jerk all his life and also pretty much the best swordsman of his generation).

Some other stuff we, suspiciously or conspicuously, don't get anything on are the exact whereabouts of Howland Reed (or rather the reason he's been holed up somewhere for, like, 20 years) and wth is going on with the Hightowers who've also been holed up in the High Tower for like, well, a long ass time (check AFFC Prologue, Leyton Hightower has been "playing Howland Reed" for a while now). So folks going underground quite throughly is not unheard of at all, be they obscure like Reed or rather important lords like Leyton. Now that I think of it, Jon Connington also feigned his death, too.

So if none of the Kingsguard actually died at the Tower of Joy, and that's not unreasonable to expect from that encounter, they've all been holed up somewhere quietly out of the way for a longish time. Dayne's got a good cover story, since his sword + body ware supposedly returned to Starfall (nobody would even consider the possibility of him being alive), but his looks are distinct so lets say he's holed up with Howland Reed for whatever reason. For all we know his sister is also with him, as his sister actually got to meet Reed at the Harenhall tourney (and this might be why Ned and Howland were spared at the Tower of Joy instead of being slaughered along with the other guys). This also accounts for why Ned brought Dayne's body to Starfall but didn't bring Dustin's bones back north - he didn't, Dayne's alive, and it was just a cover story. Also why they like him in Starfall so much to call a kid Eddard and shorten it to Ned, and also why he doesn't want to be asked about Ashara Dayne and all that.

But that's just Dayne.

Gerold Hightower could easily be holed up in the High Tower, his brother (is Leyton Hightower his brother?) is and noone's seen him or his daughter in forever and noone's making a fuss about that. Or, since he was the commander and probably the oldest, and it's been 20 years or so, he could have died in the meantime, but WAS holed up in the High Tower.

So he's even simpler than Dayne, lol.

The big question is - where is Whent? He's also got an easy way to go somewhat incognito, take the bat helm off and all that, but where could he have been for the last 20 years? Who knows?

This is where it gets interesting (I consider all of the above quite plain and would not be even slightly surprised at any of it).

In the show, Sansa goes north, and her plot deviates from the books completely (IMO). Also, in the show, there's no Oswell Whent at the Tower of Joy at all. This is HUGELY suspicious. Because Sansa's the most "Whent" of all the Starks (and I'm guessing anyone we know to be alive), she's hanging around a Lord of Harrenhall (Littlefinger), and if anyone's going to reintroduce Oswell Whent into the story it would have to be her. So Whent was cut from the show and Sansa's story was changed from the books, which could (and very probably does) mean that Oswell Whent  figured in what was going to happen to Sansa.

There's theories about LF trying to do some prophecy related sillyness with Sansa and Harrenhall. Not sure about the exact details, but it heavily involves Bael the Bard story and the gods (and "gods alone know what game Littlefinger is playing"), but anyway, if Sansa ever discovers her Whent side it might involve finding out Oswell is still around (probably around Harenhall specifically), and that would also be in line with the other two coming out of the woodwork, Dayne in the North with Howland Reed and folks who went to Greywater watch with Robbs will (maybe we get to see Arthur Dayne die of old age in the TWOW prologue?), and Gerold (if he's still alive) with the whole Euron bussiness down at Oldtown.

Got a feeling that's what's gonna happen with Sansa (possibly among other things).

Now I'm off to backtrack through the thread and see if someone wrote exactly this same thing a page or so back, because it just looks so obvious

EDIT: Holy muffins, here's something else - the hound's story was changed for the show, too. Among other things the place where he ends holed up after his supposed death is changed. The Hound is tied to Sansa, and the place he's holed up in the books, the Quiet isle, is rather close to Harenhal and is a sanctuary for anyone who'd like to disappear. There's even survivors of the battle of the Trident there (if the Elder Brother is to be believed, and he could easily BE Oswell  Whent, I just wouldn't necessarily bet on it.) So if Whent was there all along, and that's a rather likely and convenient place for him to have been, and the Hound is there now, there's plenty of things GRRM could do with those two guys and Sansa (who's nearby and might come even closer). But there you go - three "ghosts", Leyton Hightower, Howland Reed and the Hound, for the locations of the three missing Kingsguard, one of whom is something like Sansa's cousin or some kind of grand uncle who supports her bat theme heavily.

So... not necessarily even all that crackpot. Where it actually goes is anyone's guess.

[Sansa's lemon cakes]

To be honest I do not care who she ends up with or where geographically, just as long as she isn't dead. Even if she ends up with say, Tyrion (my big NOTP) I'd just be relieved that she'd have made it through alive. 

[DreamSongs]

But Jon provides her with some justice when he calls for Slynt's head.

[Damon_Tor]

On 4/1/2016 at 0:55 AM, Demonking1381 said:

Throughout the entire series, Sansa seems to have been the least important pov character since she really hasn't done much and just reacts to things going on around her. I'm asking people what they think her purpose is going to be in the last two books since she really hasn't done that much yet.

I think she's probably the last obstacle for Daenerys. She'll need to expose Sansa's "black blood" and prove it makes her unfit to be the Stark at Winterfell, making way for her own child with Jon Snow (Snow has Stark blood free of Hoare taint) to take his/her place on the Throne of Winter.

Sansa, or at least her lineage, is the third vision of the "Slayer of Lies" quatrain.

Quote

From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire

Smoking tower = Harrenhall

Stone Beast took wing = House Lothston (translated: "Hateful Stone") taking the Bats of Harrenhal as their sigil

Breathing Shadow Fire = Lucas Lothston's role in creating the Blackfyre Rebellion

Lothston -> Whent -> Tully -> Stark. That's a pretty easy case to make. I actually take it a step further:

Hoare -> Lothston -> Whent -> Tully -> Stark

I don't think the pacts of the old gods care about whether you're a man or a woman, or your family name, they only care about your lineage (fitting with GRRM's disdain for patriarchal constructs). Sansa is a Stark, yes, but she's also a Lothston, both a wolf and a bat. In the eyes of the Old Gods, it disqualifies her (or any of her fullborn siblings) from sitting the Throne of Winter. The Others coming back is literally Cat's fault for bringing her poison blood to Winterfell.

[Springwatch]

On 6/19/2016 at 3:45 PM, lujo said:

Something that's been on my mind for a long time, call it valryan tifoil, shade of the evening out of a cracked pot theory, or not, because it's not deep into misticism or imagery but rather somewhat shlocky writing:

There's a bunch of stuff obscurely hinted at concerning the Whent and Lothston families, and the Whent family is way more obscure than it has any reason to be (compared to other families). What's the exact relationship between Minisa Whent, grandmother to, like, half the OG cast, and the batty lady Whent in Harrenhal? The Whent seat features rather prominently in the books, and we know way too little about the family. This is known to be suspicious, considering we get to know, like, which hand random small lords use to scratch their scrotum with. Sansa is, among other things, a Whent, by way of her maternal grandmother, and I think that is going to tie into the following:

There's something else that's very suspicious that I never really see linked to Sansa, and that is that it's actually quite likely that none of the three Kingsguard chaps died at the Tower of Joy. Dayne alone could have killed all the Stark guys by himself, and he had Gerold Hihtower and Oswell Whent there with him. Check out all the "He could kill the X of you with one hand while taking a leak with the other" comments about that generation of the Kingsguard. From what we've seen of Selmy and Jaime's admiration of the bunch of them it's quite likely that they could actually do it (Jaime admiring someone for swordsmanship is quite something, he's been an arrogant jerk all his life and also pretty much the best swordsman of his generation).

...

Interesting theory (which definitely should be cross-posted to a Tower of Joy thread) - and I'd be happy with any explanation that makes the Kingsguard's actions look halfway sane. But there's still the big question, which is WHY? And why Sansa? Wouldn't she be heir to the North before she could be heir to Harrenhall?

17 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

I think she's probably the last obstacle for Daenerys. She'll need to expose Sansa's "black blood" and prove it makes her unfit to be the Stark at Winterfell, making way for her own child with Jon Snow (Snow has Stark blood free of Hoare taint) to take his/her place on the Throne of Winter.

Sansa, or at least her lineage, is the third vision of the "Slayer of Lies" quatrain.

Oh I really hope not. I think that would be too depressing even for GRRM - the idea of evil being something you inherit is just unbearable. Bran has the same blood, and has a direwolf and the greenseer gift - very Northern. Anyway, the Old Gods are very much about human sacrifice and blood magic, so they probably wouldn't care.

Thanks for tackling the stone beast prophecy - I wish more people would.

[Damon_Tor]

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Oh I really hope not. I think that would be too depressing even for GRRM - the idea of evil being something you inherit is just unbearable. Bran has the same blood, and has a direwolf and the greenseer gift - very Northern. Anyway, the Old Gods are very much about human sacrifice and blood magic, so they probably wouldn't care.

Thanks for tackling the stone beast prophecy - I wish more people would.

House Hoare was up to something. Or at least, whoever was pulling their strings (likely the Citadel) was up to something.

I suspect house Hoare became "bad guys" only because one of GRRM's recurring themes is "history is unreliable". Their goal appears to have been the unification of humanity against their inhuman foes: the CotF and the Others. "Unification of humanity" is a literal concept in the world of Ice and Fire: an ability to connect and form a psychic gestalt, perhaps one that can rival that of the CotF.

The "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" condition of the treaty exists because the Starks are genetically predisposed to psychic manipulation by the children; it's there to make sure the Children can always have a voice in human politics. But the Black Blood runs contrary to that; if the Hoares formed the central node of a unified human gestalt as designed by the Citadel, it stands to reason that one of the genes they would have selected for in their breeding was an ability to RESIST the manipulation of the CotF. The Hoare resistance may have counteracted the Stark susceptibility, meaning the pact was broken, as far as the CotF were concerned and the Others were "reactivated".

This is also why Bran actually JOINING the CotF collective is such a dangerous thing. His Hoare traits, bred for linking humans together into a single collective, could give the CotF the ability to directly control human minds. I think the Faceless Men know about all of this, and it's why Arya is so interesting to them. Littlefinger may not understand all of this, but I think he knows far more than he's letting on about the magic surrounding the Black Blood. It explains both his obsession with Cat (and later Sansa) and with Harrenhal (which was as important to the Maester/Hoare gestalt as the Black Blood itself.)

Also interesting: Craster is described as having "Black Blood" as well, and a Hoare was Lord Commander of the night's watch during the conquest making it very possible that Craster has those genes as well. If his sons are becoming the Others, does that mean that the Others are now resistant to CotF control? Has their weapon gone rogue?

[lujo]

7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Interesting theory (which definitely should be cross-posted to a Tower of Joy thread) - and I'd be happy with any explanation that makes the Kingsguard's actions look halfway sane. But there's still the big question, which is WHY? And why Sansa? Wouldn't she be heir to the North before she could be heir to Harrenhall?

I was afraid that my post would look too much like a Tower of Joy post rather than a Sansa post, but here's why Sansa:
 

Spoiler

 

- She's a Whent (by way of her maternal grandma), and also a warg (all stark kids are), and Whents (and maybe lothstons) had something going on with giant bats. Those are often compared with dragons (and there's certain ambiguity about them.)
- Harrenhal is both the seat of the Whent family and what Littlefinger is lord of (and was VERY anxious to become lord of, that was his objective before getting out of Kings Landing). It's easy to imagine Sansa and LF having something to do with the place by the end. A previous lady of Harenhall is said to have "sent giant bats to collect children", and Littlefinger seems to be collecting various children as wards and stashing them somewhere.
- The "Noone died at the ToY" theory usually gets shut down by the question of "All right, but where's Whent?". That question isn't just about where he could have been hiding for 20 or so years, but also about what could he possibly tie into. What he could easily tie into is whatever Sansa's story is.

- If he's around, he's either at Harrenhal, the isle of faces or the Quiet Isle (the Elder Brother sounds like one of his nephews, suspiciously so, I've checked). The quiet isle is a rather good bet, because the Hound is there, successfully playing dead. The Hound was also a kingsguard with a distinct helm once, who decided that a mad king wasn't worth defending and took off. Same would essentially be true for Oswel Whent if he survived the ToY.
- Brienne starts looking for Sansa with a Lothston (also Whent associates) shield and the quests takes her through the Quiet isle. Heck, that's how the quiet isle is introduced - as part of a quest to find Sansa. The Hound has a thing for Sansa, too. Sansa's story in the show has been obviously changed from whatever it is in the books, enormously so. So was the Hound's, drastically. And both the Quiet Isle and Oswell Whent (at the ToY) were cut.
- In fact it seems completely bizzare that there weren't 3 kingsguard at the ToY in the show but 2 - why would someone mess with that scene in such a minor way? The answer could easily be - it wasn't messed with in a minor way, it was messed with in a major way, and that is by having the two kingsguard present at the tower actually killed. All the other stuff that was cut/changed for the Hound is very likely to end up connected with whatever Sansa's story is in the books. Sansa is how Oswel Whent, if her's still alive, comes back into the story, and possibly the actual PoW who discovers that any of the 3 kingsguard are alive first (if they are indeed alive).

- As to the big why? Well it could be any number of things, really. There's theories about Littlefinger planning to perform a ritual at Harenhal which involves her and the gods (and possibly the child wards he's been stacking) - he wouldn't be the only baddie up to something like that. He could have spent all the cash he has on dragon eggs he would then be trying to hatch, that'd work, too. Maybe something related to the Ashford tourney? Maybe something related to Young Griff - he's a Targaryen conqueror who hasn't got Dragons to burn the lord of Harenhal out, so maybe he'd have to negotiate and she'd get to marry a Targaryen (and complete the ashford tourney sequence) - that would get her to Harrenhal, but then things could get screwy somehow.

Lots of stuff could go down, but if it's likely to involve Harenhal and quite likely to involve Sansa's Whent heritage, and in case noone really died at the ToY it's VERY likely to involve either Oswel Whent or whoever he passed his knowledge/legacy/whathaveyou to (which could easily turn out to be the Hound).

Martin seems to have left himself plenty of space or options as to where exactly to take the whole Lothston/Whent/Harenhal/Hound/Sansa/Littlefinger thing, but as fas as if it indeed IS a thing - it's almost certainly a thing.

 

[Bea Noleto]

On 18/06/2016 at 8:21 PM, zandru said:

@Le Cygne:

"I said Sandor seems to intuitively sense she's a warg. By this, I mean, he keeps saying she is a bird and can fly. And she keeps thinking of him, or bumping into him, or running into him, when she thinks of Lady."

I'm sorry, but this still makes no sense to me. Calling her a parrot and drawing out the metaphor isn't the same as believing she's one of the semi-mythical people who can enter the bodies of ... birds? Wolves? No.

Now are you saying she's "warging" Sandor (because he calls himself the Hound) to her? So she's operating him? Please.

Yes, eventually Sansa thinks about the Hound again, as your quote indicates. But it's in terms of being able to make use of him, as I noted. And totally whitewashing her actual behavior. Her little fantasy makes it sound as if Swashbuckling Sandor dropped by her room for a quick kiss before dashing off into the night; that she welcomed and enjoyed his attentions; and in reward, she sang him a sweet song, as she knew he would have liked, and they parted as virtual lovers. In the ugly reality, she drew back from him, told him how much he scared her, closed her eyes and pulled away from him, making him think she was once again rejecting him for his burned face. And, of course, there was no kiss. The song, such as it was, was forced at knifepoint, and then she huddled in her bed, waiting for him to go away, knowing he was bleeding from a head wound, drunk, and in tears. No skin off her pretty little nose, eh?

Sansa seems to like the concept of the Hound, as opposed to the complicated, traumatized reality of Sandor Clegane. She values what the Hound has done for her (not that she'd think of thanking him; he's 'the help', after all.) And rather than accept the tormented, troubled Sandor, she has painted this oh-so-romantic picture, with herself as the beautiful strong heroine enjoying his attentions and bidding him farewell and gods' speed. Sansa is deluding herself, much like Cersei does (foreshadowing??).

Sansa shut that door to Sandor by the way she rejected him. He literally gave up everything he had - position with the Lannisters, nearly all his possessions, his home, his reputation as a fighter - for the chance of rescuing her and taking her back to her family. She in effect told him to pound sand.

In the immediate future, Sandor learns that there's even more he can and will give up before it's over - his shield, his sword, his very life. But that's Arya's story.

I don't usually defend Sansa, but really, that is rather unfair to her.  Anyone with a little common sense would be scared in her position.  Sandor saved her once, was kind to her several times, yes, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't hurt her in the future, that he didn't have less honorable intentions. She really shouldn't assume that. 

In that moment she was alone, with a man much stronger than herself, drunk, disturbed. With the war, no one would hear her if she screamed. He put a knife on her throat. She had every right to fear for her safety, above anything else.

Besides, how could she clean his wounds? Would she have any of the items necessary in that room, in which she was  prisioner? Does she even know how to do that properly?

Running away with Sandor would be an awful decision. Arya is a savvy girl and the Lannisters assume she is dead, which is why Sandor could keep her with him. If Sansa disappeared, they would look for her, she wouldn't be able to disguise herself, they would have been found and she would have been punished for it. It takes an Olenna Tyrell or Littlefinger to take her away from the Lannister's grasp. 

And Sandor didn't abandon "position with the Lannisters, nearly all his possessions, his home, his reputation as a fighter" for Sansa. He was terrified of the wildfire, and he had to leave because of his utter failure in the war. Sandor came with this idea because he was scared and didn't want to be alone, or wanted to sell her to a member of her family (like with Arya), it was purely self-serving.

Sansa often forgets/ignores/whitewashes situations in order to deal with an uncomfortable reality. But this time she wasn't whitewashing her own behaviour, she was just romanticizing it in order to create a good memory out of all the shit she has been living. In this situation, it is you who is whitewashing the Hound's behaviour and motivations.

[Le Cygne]

He came to rescue her. This from the app:

Quote

Instead, he finds his way to Sansa Stark's chambers, where he forces her to sing him a song while trying to work up the courage to take her with him out of the city.

This from Sandor:

Quote

"I could keep you safe. They’re all afraid of me. No one would hurt you again, or I’d kill them."

This from Sansa:

Quote

I wish the Hound were here. The night of the battle, Sandor Clegane had come to her chambers to take her from the city, but Sansa had refused. Sometimes she lay awake at night, wondering if she’d been wise.

"I could keep you safe. They’re all afraid of me. No one would hurt you again, or I’d kill them." The bold, he's talking about Joffrey there. He broke with Joffrey because he hurt Sansa. That happened long before the battle (where he actually did well before the fire got to him). And then he came to take her away, because that was a big story point, where she regrets not going with him.

He risked his life to save hers during the riot. And he protected her over and over again, many times, manipulating and defying Joffrey to do so. Sansa explicitly saw him as her protector before he left, and she still does (she even imagined he was there to rescue her). He clearly loves her, which makes sense, since he's the Beast and all. The author even gave him the Beast's lines.

As for Sansa romanticizing, it's a romance. They both are romanticizing. Very wild and sexy, but definitely a romance. Based on Jean Cocteau's La Belle et la Bete. The author requested calendar art like the movie poster. Wanted the actor who played the Beast on his old Beauty and the Beast show to play the Hound. And put this up on his website. And much more...

That night, as soon as she caught up to him, she did this: "Some instinct made her lift her hand and cup his cheek with her fingers." That's a classic lover's gesture. Then she got under his bloody cloak, that's classic virgin consummation symbolism. And much more. The story centers on a kiss, that the author said would play in again in the next book. Seems like Sansa has the right of it.

As for Littlefinger and Olenna, they framed her for regicide. Since Sandor left, Sansa has a price on her head, thanks to them. Cersei wants her killed on the spot for killing Joffrey. Before she would have been an escaped hostage, now she's wanted for killing the king. Big difference. She's been through hell ever since he left, forcible marriage, attempted rape, and it will likely get worse...

Also the subtext is that Sandor was bringing Arya back home for Sansa. He talked about Sansa constantly the whole time he was with Arya. That was leading up to the story beat of the Beast dying of heartbreak ("you remember where the heart is?") There's more to come, should be really good... The author started telling this story in book 1, and has been telling it ever since.

[Bea Noleto]

On 18/06/2016 at 8:21 PM, zandru said:

 

 

On 23/06/2016 at 7:28 AM, Le Cygne said:

He came to rescue her. This from the app:

This from Sandor:

This from Sansa:

"I could keep you safe. They’re all afraid of me. No one would hurt you again, or I’d kill them." The bold, he's talking about Joffrey there. He broke with Joffrey because he hurt Sansa. That happened long before the battle (where he actually did well before the fire got to him). And then he came to take her away, because that was a big story point, where she regrets not going with him.

He risked his life to save hers during the riot. And he protected her over and over again, many times, manipulating and defying Joffrey to do so. Sansa explicitly saw him as her protector before he left, and she still does (she even imagined he was there to rescue her). He clearly loves her, which makes sense, since he's the Beast and all. The author even gave him the Beast's lines.

As for Sansa romanticizing, it's a romance. They both are romanticizing. Very wild and sexy, but definitely a romance. Based on Jean Cocteau's La Belle et la Bete. The author requested calendar art like the movie poster. Wanted the actor who played the Beast on his old Beauty and the Beast show to play the Hound. And put this up on his website. And much more...

That night, as soon as she caught up to him, she did this: "Some instinct made her lift her hand and cup his cheek with her fingers." That's a classic lover's gesture. Then she got under his bloody cloak, that's classic virgin consummation symbolism. And much more. The story centers on a kiss, that the author said would play in again in the next book. Seems like Sansa has the right of it.

As for Littlefinger and Olenna, they framed her for regicide. Since Sandor left, Sansa has a price on her head, thanks to them. Cersei wants her killed on the spot for killing Joffrey. Before she would have been an escaped hostage, now she's wanted for killing the king. Big difference. She's been through hell ever since he left, forcible marriage, attempted rape, and it will likely get worse...

Also the subtext is that Sandor was bringing Arya back home for Sansa. He talked about Sansa constantly the whole time he was with Arya. That was leading up to the story beat of the Beast dying of heartbreak ("you remember where the heart is?") There's more to come, should be really good... The author started telling this story in book 1, and has been telling it ever since.

First, we shouldn't take the app as canon, it doesn't substitute our interpretation of the text. 

Second, I am not arguing that Sandor didn't want to keep Sansa safe, but that coming to rescue Sansa was a decision he made impulsively, after he broke in battle, and that his reasons are unclear, we are especulating. I think he was afraid and didn't want to be alone. He could also think that she should get him a ransom. Sandor was going to ransom Arya to the Tullys, remember? Only Red Wedding happened. He is not a big bad, but he is no knight in shinnig armor, either.

Also, he couldn't keep her safe, no matter what he thinks. Sansa was the only hostage the Lannisters had, she was safe in the castle, so if she wasn't there anymore is because she escaped. They would look for her with all the resources they had, and an auburn haired girl riding with a big man with half of his face burned would hardly go unnoticed. It takes someone shrewd and resourceful planning ahead to arrange an escape with some chance of sucess.

Anyway, my point was that Sansa's reaction was adequate to the situation, and I might say commendable even.

[OldGimletEye]

On 6/22/2016 at 8:28 PM, Bea Noleto said:

And Sandor didn't abandon "position with the Lannisters, nearly all his possessions, his home, his reputation as a fighter" for Sansa. He was terrified of the wildfire, and he had to leave because of his utter failure in the war. Sandor came with this idea because he was scared and didn't want to be alone, or wanted to sell her to a member of her family (like with Arya), it was purely self-serving.

Nope it wasn't. If you don't think he genuinely cared for Sansa, even maybe in his own messed up way, when he broke at the Blackwater, you really don't understand the character at all. He knows he has to leave. And he doesn't want to leave Sansa in KL by herself. His offer of protection was real. He basically tells her he'd kill anyone that messed with her.

[Bea Noleto]

Just now, OldGimletEye said:

Nope it wasn't. If you don't think he genuinely cared for Sansa, even maybe in his own messed up way, when broke the Blackwater, you really don't understand the character at all. He knows he has to leave. And he doesn't want to leave Sansa in KL by herself. His offer of protection was real. 

Ok, perhaps not purely. He did care for Sansa, but he didn't leave the Lannisters because of Sansa, he left because of the wildfire. Even Sansa figured that.  And he probably would get something out of the deal, as he would have with Arya (ransom from the Tullys) if not for the RW.   Also, he definetely needed company, at least for a while. I really don't understand why people need to embelish Sandor's actions and motivations. He is not a hero of any sort, he is just a guy who tries to do something good or less evil once in a while.

[OldGimletEye]

21 minutes ago, Bea Noleto said:

Ok, perhaps not purely. He did care for Sansa, but he didn't leave the Lannisters because of Sansa, he left because of the wildfire. Even Sansa figured that.  And he probably would get something out of the deal, as he would have with Arya (ransom from the Tullys) if not for the RW.   Also, he definetely needed company, at least for a while. I really don't understand why people need to embelish Sandor's actions and motivations. He is not a hero of any sort, he is just a guy who tries to do something good or less evil once in a while.

I agree it was the three sorties he made outside the city with wildfire raging all around him that led to his combat fatigue and then break with the Lannisters. That was the immediate reason why he broke with the Lannisters.

But, also, it seems clear too that before the Blackwater, Sandor's allegiance to the Lannisters was eroding, like when he mockingly called Joffrey a "brave boy". And then the times he lied on Sansa's behalf.

Maybe we can't precisely say why his allegiance to the Lannisters started to erode, before The Battle of The Blackwater. But, it seems the most likely cause of that erosion was Sansa.

Maybe some people do try to whitewash Sandor at times. Then, again, it seems some people try to blackwash him too.

ETA:

And oh by the way, when Sandor left KL, he was a fairly wealthy man. He had won the Hand's Tourney and had a sizable sum of money on his person. He probably could have just gone to Essos and lived a nice life. But, he didn't do that. Instead he went to the RL. Now why would he do that? Hmm? What could be the reason? Golly, I just can't guess why he would do that.

And why would he need company? He has been fighting for many years. And he pretty much, as far we can tell, has been a loner for most of his life. So, why does he need a traveling buddy?