Mance=Rhaegar

[Wheels]

11 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

When was that mentioned? Because from what we seem to know so far Dank saved him and Rhaela. There is even a picture of his birth in twoiaf outside Summerhall.

Why he had his funeral in Quiet Isle?

This is not a theory. At best this is a crackpot turning to fanfiction.

The fact that the books belong to the fantasy gene doesn't mean that they don't have logic. For example a small number of the logical questions that this fan fiction or so called theory doesn't answer;

Why GRRM used the word "cremated" if it hadn't happen?

Why GRRM had told something like “keep reading” the way he does when the question will be answered later in the books?

How Rhaegar was cremated at the Quiet Isle and no one had witnessed his "resurrection"?

Wouldn’t the Rebels had made sure that he was burned since if there were not witness it would had opened the door for many possible imposters comming in?

Does the Targs have recessive *fireproof* genes which work like "get out of a pyre unharmed" card?

Why Rhaegar left and became the KbtW and didn’t went to found his children or at least his mother and siblings?

How Rhaegar was able to create a back-story which involved the Night’s Watch and everyone at the Wall seemed to agree with his lies?

When Targs are resurrected they change their physical appearance too and by a striking 41 years old typical Targ male with dark indigo eyes and long silver hair they change to an unremarkable-looking 45-65 years old man with long mostly gray brown hair sharp face and brown eyes? Does this mean that Jon can turn to a 30 something Targaryen looking male after being resurrected? Does the Targ resurrection affects the gender too like the Time Lords?

 

In my fan fiction I mentioned that i hold the belief that Dunc carried Rhaella+Rhaegar through the flames to safety and blood magic from the burning kings protected them. not sure why the birth would already be taking place outside the palace.

I'm not stating that any of these "fan fictions" are fact. There are lots of important events in the story that take place off page because one of our POV characters isn't there so we are left to speculate. Rhaegars funeral is never mentioned so I'm putting forward the idea that it took place on the quiet isle which isn't impossible given its close geographical location to the Ruby ford.

You're right. Its just as likely that R was simply cremated into an urn like DayDreamerz mentioned above but because we have only this one offhanded statement from george and nothing to go on in the books I came up with the idea that during the attempt to cremate him, something magical happened. for you this is obviously a deal breaker but for me its not so I hope we can just move on from this point you've made your opinion extremely clear.

If his funeral took place on the quiet isle the silent brothers would have witnessed his funeral and possibly Ser Richard Lonmouth his friend who went missing after the Trident. Again this is simply "fan fiction"

I don't know if the Rebels would have made sure he was burned or not. Its a good point but its never mentioned so we can only theorize.. erm i mean fan fictionize about that.

The Targ's don't have fireproof genes this is known. I'm putting forward the notion that Rhaegar was a man touched by the Gods with a special destiny so he was given his life back somehow. There's no one correct way to that blood magic seams to work and strange things like it have happened we know that Dany survived a fire through blood magic.

By the time Rhaegar would have recovered from being spiked in the chest the rebellion would have ended and kings landing would have been sacked. Ned rushed ahead with the vanguard to the capital and Tywin still beat him there. Rhaegar would have nothing left to live for except his for his original purpose to stop the long night. There's evidence that even before the Trident that he was trying to fulfill prophecy by having babies with Lyanna. It's likely that everything he did in life was motivated by this greater purpose. this would have extended all the way back through his youth of which we know very little. therefore I "fan fictionize" that he was trained in the higher mysteries.

I've adopted the idea that Rhaegar stole the nights watchmen Mance Rayders identity because I believe that he was a powerful sorcerer who could change his face among other things. again, deal breaker for you, not for me.

 

[Ebrose]

On 5/27/2016 at 11:56 PM, Wheels said:

Possible, but i doubt it. If the books follow the show we know Mel is hundreds of years old. Unlikely that she would have one of Rhaegar's rubies. More likely she's had the same ones for a long time. I imagine she only first arrived on Dragonstone sometime during the events of the first book right after Stannis fled kings landing. Cool idea though and it doesn't mean that his rubies don't have dome special magical significance.

Thank you for the show spoilers. Very thoughtful of you =)

ETA: By the way, if the books follow the show? really? Shouldn't it be "the show follows the books", at least? (btw, if we take the show as canon, then

Spoiler

Mance is burned by Mel, right? Sansa is married to Ramsay, right? and I could go on...
Or at least as far as I've seen (haven't watched 6th season and don't plan to do it until TWoW is released)

Please, don't use what happens or not in the shows as an argument

[Wheels]

6 hours ago, Ebrose said:

Thank you for the show spoilers. Very thoughtful of you =)

ETA: By the way, if the books follow the show? really? Shouldn't it be "the show follows the books", at least? (btw, if we take the show as canon, then

  Reveal hidden contents

Mance is burned by Mel, right? Sansa is married to Ramsay, right? and I could go on...
Or at least as far as I've seen (haven't watched 6th season and don't plan to do it until TWoW is released)

Please, don't use what happens or not in the shows as an argument

If it please you, your grace.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

21 hours ago, Wheels said:

not sure why the birth would already be taking place outside the palace.

Mostly because the aproved picture in TWOIAF is with Rhaella giving birth outside of Summerhall.

21 hours ago, Wheels said:

Rhaegars funeral is never mentioned so I'm putting forward the idea that it took place on the quiet isle which isn't impossible given its close geographical location to the Ruby ford.

You're right. Its just as likely that R was simply cremated into an urn like DayDreamerz mentioned above but because we have only this one offhanded statement from george and nothing to go on in the books I came up with the idea that during the attempt to cremate him, something magical happened. for you this is obviously a deal breaker but for me its not so I hope we can just move on from this point you've made your opinion extremely clear.

GRRM has mentioned Rhaegar funeral and no it's isn't logical. Traveling with the body of the defeated in order to cremate him in a isle in the middle of nowhere and he has no connection with doesn't make sense.

21 hours ago, Wheels said:

If his funeral took place on the quiet isle the silent brothers would have witnessed his funeral and possibly Ser Richard Lonmouth his friend who went missing after the Trident. Again this is simply "fan fiction"

We have been there and we have seen the Elder Brother why if that had happened he hadn't said anything not about a resurrection but about Rhaegar being cremated there.

21 hours ago, Wheels said:

The Targ's don't have fireproof genes this is known. I'm putting forward the notion that Rhaegar was a man touched by the Gods with a special destiny so he was given his life back somehow. There's no one correct way to that blood magic seams to work and strange things like it have happened we know that Dany survived a fire through blood magic.

Really? Because the way I see it he was crazy just a different kind of his father but crazy.

21 hours ago, Wheels said:

By the time Rhaegar would have recovered from being spiked in the chest the rebellion would have ended and kings landing would have been sacked. Ned rushed ahead with the vanguard to the capital and Tywin still beat him there. Rhaegar would have nothing left to live for except his for his original purpose to stop the long night. There's evidence that even before the Trident that he was trying to fulfill prophecy by having babies with Lyanna. It's likely that everything he did in life was motivated by this greater purpose. this would have extended all the way back through his youth of which we know very little. therefore I "fan fictionize" that he was trained in the higher mysteries.

So it took more that 6 months for Rhaegar to ressurect? Because if it hasn't took so long he could had gone to his mother.

22 hours ago, Wheels said:

I've adopted the idea that Rhaegar stole the nights watchmen Mance Rayders identity because I believe that he was a powerful sorcerer who could change his face among other things. again, deal breaker for you, not for me.

And how no one seem to mention he was a sorcerer? Not even his confidant Aemon seems to know something like that.

[Wheels]

Just now, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Mostly because the aproved picture in TWOIAF is with Rhaella giving birth outside of Summerhall.

GRRM has mentioned Rhaegar funeral and no it's isn't logical. Traveling with the body of the defeated in order to cremate him in a isle in the middle of nowhere and he has no connection with doesn't make sense.

We have been there and we have seen the Elder Brother why if that had happened he hadn't said anything not about a resurrection but about Rhaegar being cremated there.

Really? Because the way I see it he was crazy just a different kind of his father but crazy.

So it took more that 6 months for Rhaegar to ressurect? Because if it hasn't took so long he could had gone to his mother.

And how no one seem to mention he was a sorcerer? Not even his confidant Aemon seems to know something like that.

not sure why you care so much its just fan fiction anyways

[the trees have eyes]

OP

Rhaegar is unequivocally dead.  You acknowledge his death, which is an improvement on other versions that say it wasn't actually Rhaegar who Robert killed (on account of him wearing a helmet and no one swearing on page to seeing his face), but you spoil it with the argument that he was resurrected.  There really is nothing to suggest this and although you can pluck an idea out of thin air and say that as there is nothing in the books to specifically contradict this (hello Howland Reed is the High Septon, Ned warged into person X and is living a second life, etc, etc) you have to establish the means and opportunity for this bizarre event if you want to win people over. 

Who can ressurect him?  Well, the red priests, or Thoros at least, get the magic kiss of life once the dragons come back, but the dragons are not around at the time of Rhaegar's death so there is no suggestion that death is anything other than utterly and completely final.  You say Rhaegar was a special dude, favoured by the Gods and a powerful sorceror.  But none of this is in the books and if he was such a special dude you have to wonder how Robert got to kill him in the first place.  Who has the opportunity to resurrect him and how will he escape without any notice? And being cremated was not a problem?  He ignores his family and heads off to play the part of a wildling?  He looks nothing like his previous incarnation?  The larger the number of assumptions you have to make in order to make an argument have a fighting chance of even being possible, the weaker the argument.

One of your opening comments stuck in my mind as I read through this thread:

I do not claim that these theories are true or correct. Much is speculation and logical guessing. Because of how the last discussion descended into an argument I will not be taking part in this one. However, please feel free to poke holes in my theory, point out errors or leave your opinion I would love to hear what you think.

When you put a theory out there with this number of assumptions that seem to flatly contradict the text and statements by the author and seems wildly implausible you have to be prepared for some strong disagreement so bear in mind your own invitation to people and your own intention to stay out of the fray!

[Jon's Queen Consort]

16 hours ago, Wheels said:

not sure why you care so much its just fan fiction anyways

Because discussing so called theories is what we do here. Someone propose a *theory* and discuss about it.

[Wheels]

On 2016-05-31 at 4:24 AM, the trees have eyes said:

I do not claim that these theories are true or correct. Much is speculation and logical guessing. Because of how the last discussion descended into an argument I will not be taking part in this one. However, please feel free to poke holes in my theory, point out errors or leave your opinion I would love to hear what you think.

Yea i cant help myself.

So I get that there is a lot of leaps you have to make for some of this to be possible and I agree that some of it is really ambiguous writing by GRRM but but the main factors in the OP you have problems with ie. face changing, people surviving fires through magic, resurrection, people coming back from death or near-death as a different persona have all been proven possible by the story. It's pretty fair to say that we know hardly anything about the way that the magic/telepathy/god system in ASOIAF works largely because our beloved characters have had barely any contact with it yet. I personally believe that GRRM deliberately wrote Rhaegar to be enigmatic for a reason. I've put practically all the text there is on Rhaegar in the OP so people can have their own opinion on the kind of person he was. Myself, I see no absolute damning evidence against the theory taking into account the previously mentioned factors. Some people have enjoyed these ideas and some people have been strongly opposed to them. For me, the only thing that improves the story more than R=M is the idea that GRRM could plant a secret so perfectly in his story that it fools 99% of the fan base.

[Mrslannistark]

The first time I read about Mance I felt there was a connection to Rhaegar. Yes, I FELT it, in my heart, I had absolutely no proof for it other than the character similarities. There are no other characters in the book that jumped out at me as being so similar. They don't look alike? So what! We have Faceless Men changing faces, we have GLAMOURS, we have legends and magic, direwolves, Giants, dragons! I don't see how how this concept could be described as too far-fetched or impossible. I love the idea of Mance = Rhaegar and I don't care if anyone thinks it's wrong because you know what? Only one person knows the truth and I believe GRRM will do whatever it takes not to spoil the ending for his readers. I can't wait to see if there really is a connection or relation between Mance and Rhaegar.

As for Cersei and Jaime, I have thought and want to believe they are Targaryens. I think it would be fitting because: what happens when everyone believes a well known fact such as "all the Targaryens are dead because Robert had them killed." Surprise! Robert and everyone else in Planetos just thought they were smart, but there have been many secrets unveiled that prove the known truth to in fact be wrong.

The only thing about your post I've never put much thought into is Jon and Dany being twins. The thought entered my mind, but I brushed it aside because I couldn't fathom how the baby girl could be passed off as Rhaegar's sister successfully. You have obviously put a lot of thought into it and what you say COULD BE SO. I'll have to let it sink in a bit more...I still have yet to do a second read, so I'll look out for it!

[PrettyPig]

On 4/3/2016 at 8:41 PM, Wheels said:

-------> I’m going to start with the character of Rhaegar and the theory that he was resurrected. I am also putting forward the idea that some characters, at varying levels of understanding, are aware of the Prophecy of the Prince that was Promised, the long night, and the impending doom (Melisandre, Marwyn the mage, Euron Greyjoy and others...). Rhaegar and Arthur Dayne are likely very aware of this as well.

I've always had a soft spot for M=R theories, and the bolded above is a huge personal favorite crackpot of mine.  In fact, one of the essays in my signature covers this very thing but from a very different source/angle, and given the influence that this source/angle has had on the series, I will not be surprised in the least if it comes to pass.  

Your overall theory was laid out quite well and I'm on board with more than a few of your arguments - have made many of them myself.   I'm not quite as cozy with any "Arthur Dayne is alive" theories or Quaithe being anyone other than Quaithe (I think the important question surrounding her is not "Who is Quaithe?" but "What did Quaithe do?"), but I'm down with idea of there being a massive TBD backstory surrounding Ashara Dayne. 

I invite you to check out the link to my Thor essay below for some support of parts of your theory, and you are welcome to repost your essay in its entirety there too - you might get better reception.

 

[Wheels]

Cheers to both of you! glad you got some enjoyment reading my post.

20 hours ago, Mrslannistark said:

The first time I read about Mance I felt there was a connection to Rhaegar.

17 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

I invite you to check out the link to my Thor essay below for some support of parts of your theory, and you are welcome to repost your essay in its entirety there too - you might get better reception.

I'll definitely check it out thanks for the link!

 

 

[Wheels]

Made a few changes/ updates to the theory folks

[Light a wight tonight]

On 5/30/2016 at 11:16 AM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Mostly because the aproved picture in TWOIAF is with Rhaella giving birth outside of Summerhall.

GRRM has mentioned Rhaegar funeral and no it's isn't logical. Traveling with the body of the defeated in order to cremate him in a isle in the middle of nowhere and he has no connection with doesn't make sense.

We have been there and we have seen the Elder Brother why if that had happened he hadn't said anything not about a resurrection but about Rhaegar being cremated there.

Really? Because the way I see it he was crazy just a different kind of his father but crazy.

So it took more that 6 months for Rhaegar to ressurect? Because if it hasn't took so long he could had gone to his mother.

And how no one seem to mention he was a sorcerer? Not even his confidant Aemon seems to know something like that.

For some reason I started reading this topic, even though I can't take Mance=Rhaegar seriously Then I saw this and it got me thinking. Forget Mance: Rhaegar is not only Dany's elder brother, he's the Elder Brother of the Quiet Isle. The evidence either way is about equal.

You say that there's no physical resemblance? Well, there's none between brown-haired, brown-eyed Mance and silver-haired, violet-eyed Rhaegar, either. 

[Sensenmenn]

Mance=Arther Dyane, half hand=whent, Jaqen H'ghar=Rheagar, and the white bull died at the tower of joy. This is what seems most likely to me.

[Wheels]

1 hour ago, Light a wight tonight said:

For some reason I started reading this topic, even though I can't take Mance=Rhaegar seriously Then I saw this and it got me thinking. Forget Mance: Rhaegar is not only Dany's elder brother, he's the Elder Brother of the Quiet Isle. The evidence either way is about equal.

You say that there's no physical resemblance? Well, there's none between brown-haired, brown-eyed Mance and silver-haired, violet-eyed Rhaegar, either. 

I've thought about that as well. not impossible just more ... anticlimactic

[Wheels]

33 minutes ago, Sensenmenn said:

Mance=Arther Dyane, half hand=whent, Jaqen H'ghar=Rheagar, and the white bull died at the tower of joy. This is what seems most likely to me.

Some quotes to back that up?

[Sensenmenn]

3 minutes ago, Wheels said:

Some quotes to back that up?

No quotes just out of all the who could be who theorys thats just what seems most possible to me.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Nice to see some thought and work put into this. Still not convinced though.

I think Mance has dragonblood, but more likely through Bloodraven. The symbolism between Bloodraven and Mance isn't likely to be accidental, though it wouldn't absolutely have to indicate a genetic tie. It's also possible that Mance is descended from one of the Targs whose futures we're missing info on (Maegor, Daella, Rhae, etc).

[Wheels]

On 2016-08-27 at 9:14 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Nice to see some thought and work put into this. Still not convinced though.

I think Mance has dragonblood, but more likely through Bloodraven. The symbolism between Bloodraven and Mance isn't likely to be accidental, though it wouldn't absolutely have to indicate a genetic tie. It's also possible that Mance is descended from one of the Targs whose futures we're missing info on (Maegor, Daella, Rhae, etc).

While the link between Mance and the dragons seems undeniable, you're right, we can't be certain that he is Rhaegar. To me the most obvious alternate would be Daemon the Rouge Prince or like you say one of his descendants. However, the evidence for Rhaegar when its all compiled begins to seem overwhelming. Summerhall was really what sold it for me.

[Viking]

A few thoughts on this

You don't need Jon and Dany to be siblings to make any of the M=R stuff work. That can be a separate Hypothesis. 

An alternate and one which requires less hermaneutic acrobatics is Jonothor Darry being Qorin Halfhand. 

An alternate way for Rhaegar to survive the Battle of the Trident is for Prince Luwyn of Dorne to be the Prince which dies in the shallow water with Rubies bursting from his chest. That would explain why Martin spends time introducing his whole paramour plot. 

I've always felt that the actions of both Rhaegar and Aerys were motivated by prophecy. Rhaegar mainly focussed on the bit about the PWP and Aerys focussed on the bit where he gets betrayed, usurped and murdered (understandably). This is why Aerys shows up at the tourney of Harrenhall, this is why he bans Jamie from jousting (thinking that if he can't joust his house can't overthrow him as per his prophecy), this is why he declares the Knight of the Laughing Tree to be his enemy (correctly thinking that this mystery knight holds the key to the upcoming rebellion), this is why Rhaegar kidnaps Lyanna (because he realizes that the two prophecies are intertwined and for the PWP to be born the rebellion must happen and succeed). All their actions make sense in that light and in that light Rhaegar has to lose at the Trident and ideally avoid dying.