Why does Brynden River Bloodraven have firstmen abilities?

[TheAegonBEFOREAegonI]

So why (or maybe how) does bloodraven have warg/skinchanger abilities? AND greenseer abilitea??? He was born a Targaryan bastard... was his mother a stark? I'm just trying to understand how a Targaryan can have abilities that only Northmen (first men) can have. How does 1 out of 1000 Starks have warg powers, and 1 out of those 1000 have additional green seer abilities, and most importantly how does bloodraven have both? ... a Targaryan with a Zero in 10,000 chance because hes not of the north?

[kissdbyfire]

He's a Blackwood on his mum's side.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

34 minutes ago, TheAegonBEFOREAegonI said:

So why (or maybe how) does bloodraven have warg/skinchanger abilities? AND greenseer abilitea??? He was born a Targaryan bastard... was his mother a stark? I'm just trying to understand how a Targaryan can have abilities that only Northmen (first men) can have. How does 1 out of 1000 Starks have warg powers, and 1 out of those 1000 have additional green seer abilities, and most importantly how does bloodraven have both? ... a Targaryan with a Zero in 10,000 chance because hes not of the north?

Brynden's mother was Melissa Blackwood. House Blackwood originates from the North, and descents from the First Men.

[Sam with Hooters]

I'm starting to wonder whether children born from both "fire powers" and "ice powers" bloodlines have to choose --or fall into--one path or the other.

Any other examples to support or debunk this idea?

[Arya_Stormborn]

39 minutes ago, Sam with Hooters said:

I'm starting to wonder whether children born from both "fire powers" and "ice powers" bloodlines have to choose --or fall into--one path or the other.

Any other examples to support or debunk this idea?

Jon?

[Lord Asher Forrester]

So you people think skinchanging powers and greensight are passed trough blood just like me? But where it comes from originally? My guess would be the children of the forest gave it as gift to the FM on the pact...

I have a topic about this and i would like if more people enter this discussion there cause i need more factual proof for my own theory and i would like to hear different opinions and theories than mine about it too.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/139667-the-warg-king-the-crannogmen-the-children-of-the-forest-and-brans-greensight-and-skinchanging-abilities-origin/

 

[Sam with Hooters]

14 hours ago, Arya_Stormborn said:

Jon?

Hasn't shown any Targ powers YET.

[Smoke317]

So Bloodraven has "fire" Targ and "ice" Blackwood blood. He seems like one of the strongest (in a magical power sense) characters in the history of Westeros. Could this combination lead to Jon becoming a very powerful magical force in the future?  Maybe even rivaling Bran & Dany?  I know Dany hasn't shown any great powers but she's at least fire resistant or tolerant if not fire proof. 

[Buried Treasure]

On 5/24/2016 at 5:27 AM, Arya_Stormborn said:

Jon?

 

On 5/24/2016 at 7:35 PM, Sam with Hooters said:

Hasn't shown any Targ powers YET.

That's debatable. He has dreams, the significance of which is unclear. They could be prophetic dreams such as run in the Targaryan line. The strength of the Targaryan gift varies from full blown prophet like Daenerys the Dreamer and Daeron the Drunk to latent ability in Aemon (fever dreams and Dany (I consider her one prophetic dream to be the night she conceived in GoT). 

Jon's non-wolf dreams could be from his Targ side rather than being from the old gods. He's labelled as a powerful skinchanger not a greenseer but it is unclear whether the difference is a spectrum with more powerful individuals having more gifts (with Jon being just powerful enough for prophetic dreams) or if skinchangers and greenseers are different things (where skinchangers only dream of their animals so Jon's crypt dreams must come from his Targ side). 

I don't believe that Jon having magic from two sources means that his magical inheritance is mulltiplied, I'd see them as distinct: he's a warg and he is prophetic dreamer. To an extent magical abilities from the old gods seem to arise at need; this whole generation of Starks being wargs who recieved Direwolves is like giving the most promising young officers the best weapons in the armoury, not all will succeed but it increases the odds one will. When the long night comes the north will look to Winterfell first, so the old gods gave magic to all the potential leaders from Winterfell to make it more likely one would be succeed in leading the fight against the Others. Perhaps the old gods also needed power and influence in the South; Bloodraven through his father had ties and influence with the rulers of the kingdom so he was a better outlet for the old gods magic than his Blackwood relatives who also kept the old gods but were not significant in the powerplays of the realm.

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 24/5/2016 at 9:35 PM, Sam with Hooters said:

Hasn't shown any Targ powers YET.

Which are those Targ powers?

[Chib]

Maybe Jon will show his Targ powers (dragon dreams, prophetic  dreams, ability to control dragon) once he meets the dragons? Or once he finds out who his true parents are and embraces the Targ identity. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 hour ago, Chib said:

Targ powers (dragon dreams, prophetic  dreams, ability to control dragon)

I don't think that those are commo Targ powers, they are personal powers not family traits.

 

[Lord Asher Forrester]

On 07/07/2016 at 9:52 AM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I don't think that those are commo Targ powers, they are personal powers not family traits.

 

Not trying to put you down, everyone have a right to opinion. But i am curious, why do you think that? We seen several Targs who have this prophetic/dragon dreams: Daereon the Drunk, Daenys the Dreamer, Daenerys Stormborn, Maester Aemon, among others...

I know that there are other people that as far as we know don't have valyrian blood and still shown similar abilities of foreshadowing, but there are a little diferences, as in the dragon dreams the figures of dragons are most proeminent. And if it is not a family trait, why is it so common among those who carry the dragon blood?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

21 hours ago, Lord Asher Forrester said:

Not trying to put you down, everyone have a right to opinion. But i am curious, why do you think that? We seen several Targs who have this prophetic/dragon dreams: Daereon the Drunk, Daenys the Dreamer, Daenerys Stormborn, Maester Aemon, among others...

And we have seen many more that lacked those dreams; the Targs during the Dance, 17 people named Targ and Rhaenyra's three Velaryon sons, Egg, Breakspear, Aerion, Jaehaerys, Alysanne, Valarr, Maekar and so on. The people who had dreams like that are just a small minority. Also iirc, Maester Aemon didn't had prophetic dreams.

21 hours ago, Lord Asher Forrester said:

I know that there are other people that as far as we know don't have valyrian blood and still shown similar abilities of foreshadowing, but there are a little diferences, as in the dragon dreams the figures of dragons are most proeminent. And if it is not a family trait, why is it so common among those who carry the dragon blood?

It isn't common. Even if we count only those who are Targs or had a Targ parent and not everyone with Targ blood, like the Martells and the Baratheons, the prophetic dreams are not a common trait.

[Lord Asher Forrester]

On 09/07/2016 at 9:15 AM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

And we have seen many more that lacked those dreams; the Targs during the Dance, 17 people named Targ and Rhaenyra's three Velaryon sons, Egg, Breakspear, Aerion, Jaehaerys, Alysanne, Valarr, Maekar and so on. The people who had dreams like that are just a small minority. Also iirc, Maester Aemon didn't had prophetic dreams.

It isn't common. Even if we count only those who are Targs or had a Targ parent and not everyone with Targ blood, like the Martells and the Baratheons, the prophetic dreams are not a common trait.

Well it seems you know more than me...And you convinced me, good job bringing a most exact info.

 You're right that it isn't that common in Targs as i tought, and very possibly it's more a personal gift and not a family trait.

But for now that is just something we think, we can't be a 100% sure if it is or not passed trough blood, at least yet not.

[Springwatch]

I assumed the opposite - that all Targs have dragon dreams, but often it doesn't interfere with leading a normal life. Tyrion might be an example, if it's true that he has Targ blood. Egg seems to have a been a good ruler until (possibly) he flipped, trying to hatch eggs at summerhall. Another king drank wildfire, trying to become a dragon. Viserys was fairly nuts about dragons ('wake the dragon, wake the drgon'). I assume they're like this because they are plagued by dragon dreams, to a greater or lesser degree.

The presence of eggs might make a difference.

[TheSeer27]

Even Baratheon's have Targaryen blood in them. Yet Robert or Renly or Stannis quite clearly dont have dragon dreams. Assuming Tyrion is a Targaryen just because he has an infatuation with dragons is wrong imo. Could mean a number of things. I remain dubious at best concerning dreams and prophecy.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

10 hours ago, TheSeer27 said:

Even Baratheon's have Targaryen blood in them. Yet Robert or Renly or Stannis quite clearly dont have dragon dreams. Assuming Tyrion is a Targaryen just because he has an infatuation with dragons is wrong imo. Could mean a number of things. I remain dubious at best concerning dreams and prophecy.

Shireen, however, might, as she dreamt about dragons who were going to eat her.

But I agree with the remainder of your post.

[Aegon VII]

On July 23, 2016 at 8:03 AM, Lord Asher Forrester said:

 You're right that it isn't that common in Targs as i tought, and very possibly it's more a personal gift and not a family trait.

I wouldn't abandon your initial position so quickly. There are many targs that don't have them but it would be difficult for GRRM to put a comment next to every distant targ mentioned in asoiaf about what they were dreaming about. It seems the targs that are more central to the story do have those traits. If anything I feel it come down to the targs being integral to prophecies and dragons, so the character who are more important have traits like that. Bloodraven, dany, Aemon, Rhaegar, Jon. I don't know the history of some of the people you mentioned but if they have dreams as well I'd say it really supports it being a family trait. Similar to Starks and their more mystical traits. It would make sense that both ice and fire would have similar styling, so if ice traits are hereditary it supports fire being as well.

The other question to ask is how often these traits are seen in non targs. Even with those, some are possibly hidden targs like Tyrion. So what non targs have these traits? And of these non targs, how many would fall into a similar pattern, but with the first men or Starks, supporting that both ice and fire have their mystical hereditary traits.

 

I agree with your initial position, but I am interested to know more as I'm open to examples that show its not as genetic as I assume!

[Duranaparthur]

Prophetic vision, and a great deal of the other such classical magic capabilities displayed by the Targaryens, may not be limited to their genetics, but instead merely more present in that bloodline. Individuals like Maggy the Frog or the Ghost of High Heart display capabilities very similar to the dragon dreams, while Nettles seems to be a likely candidate for a "dragonseed" who's not actually "Dragon"-seed. There's clearly something otherwordly about genetics in Westeros, but it sometimes seems like the Targaryens' more present display of such abilities is down more to a high profile and greater opportunity to display such abilities: the Ghost of High Heart clearly delivers consistently accurate if metaphorical dreams, but she's an ancient lady stranded in the wilderness, not a powerful ruler sitting in a keep with access to ancient prophecies to bolster and hone her abilities. And there's some question about whether "diluted" blood dilutes magic powers or not: the Starks and Baratheons are two examples of high houses with peculiar re-occurences of common powerful traits, which may be tied into their origins (possible Children blood in the Starks, Storm God blood and Dragon blood in the Baratheons) and the modern Targaryens went through what would theoretically be a magic-destroying series of marriages outside the family, particularly Maekar (married a Dayne) and Aegon V's (Blackwood!) line, which Dany is directly descended from, yet are a totally Targaryens. 

Greenseeing seems to be the only magical power that does have some kind of ethnic bond; the only people using such abilities have the blood of First Men, but also the culture of First Men. And the latter factor may have a great deal more to do with expressing that power than the blood. We've got no evidence for First Blood "purity" playing a part in these abilities: the Blackwoods especially have a varied genealogical history, considering they're surrounded by "Andal" Houses, and considering how the Starks and Mormonts both have either evidence or family legends of warging, but lack the wildling subculture that created Varamir, having a knowledge base over how to actually use those abilities may be the real key.

Again, Dragon's blood probably increases your chances, but it doesn't guarantee those abilities. Heck, considering how often the lines of Bracken and Blackwood have crossed over, Bittersteel's failure to display such abilites (as of yet) may show even more how the eugenics of fantasy may not really work. Its entirely possible that Bloodraven took his rare gift and honed it becausehe had access to First Men traditions and Targayen patronage to practice his powers, just as its possible that Targaryens born with gifts may have let them atrophy or discounte dthem because their maester, the pseudo-scientists occasionally equipped with an anti-innovation bent and quite probably anti-magic bias, discouraged it...