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The Great Kings


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Guest jasonothegreat

So, I was reading through the World of Ice and Fire again, as you do when you have no life... AND I realized something. While the Targaryens are known for incest and sibling marriages; Not **many** of them have actually been a product of such marriages. Now of course there have been cousin marriages to bring out heirs to the Iron Throne, Not many have been the traditional Brother-Sister Marriages. In fact, with the exception of King Daeron II, the greatest Kings to sit the Iron Throne were in fact not born from incest. 

Even King Aegon wasn't from a brother-sister marriage, his mother was a Velaryon. Same with King Jaehaerys I.

 And the List of Great/Good Kings goes on:

King Daeron I

King Baelor I

King Aegon V

Even the Reasonable Kings

King Viserys II (Uncle and Niece I know its a stretch)

King Maekar

King Jaehaerys II

 6 of the 17 Targ Kings were born out of Non-Targaryen Unions

This increases to 8 of the 17 if you include Aegon III and Viserys II

And of the Great/Good Kings (Who I count by them being just and good and all that): (Aegon, Jaehaerys, Daeron, Baelor, Daeron II, Aegon V) <---- If we say that these Kings are the the most glorious and Good, notice, only 1 of the 6 was born from a brother-sister Union. 

Now  to accentuate my point, lets look at the worst Kings to Sit the Throne:

King Aenys

King  Maegor

King Aegon II

King Aegon IV

King Aerys II

Of these five sinful Kings, 3 of the 5 were born from strict brother-sister sister incest. Do you think this was coincidence? Do you think GRR Martin is telling us something about incest? Am I being stupid?

Do you think I'm Right? Do you think it was intentional for the great Targ Kings to be not born from Incest while the Bad ones were? 

P.S: we might even Say King Daeron II is born not born from a true incest union if he is the offspring of Aemon the Dragonknight, they might have still been siblings but that would also make him illegitimate so take it how you will. 

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If we check the genealogical tree of the Targaryens that we know of, these results come out for all members concerning mental instability:

THE DEFINITELY GENETICALLY TROUBLED ONES

Maegor I:Definitely had mental problems from the start,seems to have gotten worse after his injury in the trial of  seven. Born of incest 

Princess Gael: Sweet and simple, also let's note that she was the last child of her parents,and often children of elder parents have higher risks of mental illness (plus the other children of the couple seem to have been mentally stable). Born of incest

Princess Jaehaera: Again sweet and simple,with a lack of emotions.Born of incest

Baelor I: Like Maegor I,his excessive piety seems a bit odd at first,getting worse after the coma and excessive fasting. Not born of incest

Daeron I: Oh yes,the Young Dragon. While he was a strategic genius, he was also a megalomaniac if there ever was one.Not born of incest

Prince Rhaegel: Reportedly mad, but also described as gentle and sweet, so he could be called a harmless simpleton like Jaehaera and GaelNot born of incest

Prince Aerion: Definitely mad and dangerous, I see signs of Aerys II. Not born of incest

Princess Vaella: Yet again a sweet and simple girl. Not born of incest

Aerys II: The posterboy for Targaryen madness and yet again his problems seem augmented by a great trauma. Born of incest

Prince Viserys: According to Ser Barristan he displayed signs of instability as a child,but it could be argued he had a rather hard life so yes,again a big trauma worsening a pre-existing condition. Born of incest

THE  CONTESTANTS FOR MADNESS

Prince Jaehaerys: Though reported to have physical deformities (extra fingers and toes) we have no clues to his mental state. Born of incest

Aegon IV: His actions grew more and more erratic as he aged, but I can't say with certainty if he was mentally challenged or just a plainly awful person. Not born of incest

Prince Daeron: Probably troubled by his dragon-dreams, I can't say he was mad. Not born of incest

Prince Maegor: We know nothing of him other than he was disqualified from getting the throne for fear that he would inherit his father's madness. Not born of incest

Prince Rhaegar: A puzzle really, until we get the whole story his actions concerning Lyanna and the possible outcomes plus his melancholy may be clues of mental instability.Born of incest

SRESIAL CATEGORY: MAD WITH GRIEF 

I wouldn't count the sad cases of Queen Helaena, Aegon III and Princess Aelora since they all got depressed due to personnal tragedies.

VERDICT

While it is plain and undisputed that incest is not a preferable method when it comes to breeding, what is rather remarkable is that even though from Aegon III till Jaehaerys II (except Aegon IV) the Targaryens married outside of the close family, the instances of madness didn't decrease despice the influx of fresh blood to their line. 

Does it imply that the madness was not just a result of incest? Did the dragons play a part to the mental state of the rider? I think at least to a part yes, the loss of the dragons had an impact even to the health of the dynasty.

 

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Genetics in Westeros work different to ours, but at least in our world the amount of inbreeding among the Targaryens is relatively low. Many historical royal families had much more inbreeding and produced lots of perfectly competent rulers (Cleopatra's ancestry, for instance, puts any Targaryen to shame). Also, in real life, the most usual consequences of inbreeding wasn't madness, but abortions, childhood death, and other hereditary diseases such as haemophilia.

Another important think to keep in mind is that the problems of inbreeding depend not only about you parents, but on the whole genetic pool of your ancestors. For instance, Prince's Rhaegel problems could easily derive from inbreeding because even if his parents were unrelated, two of his grandparents were siblings. So he had 3/4 of the genetic pool of a normal person.

 

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In light of the fact that the Targaryens practiced incest for a long time, not just on Dragonstone (Gaemon the Glorious/Daenys the Dreamer and Aegon/Elaena were both siblings who married each other) but also back in Valyria it is very difficult to try to assess the effects the incest had on the Targaryen kings.

Depending how George's gene stuff works the occasional infusion of non-Valyrian blood may have little to no effect at all - and if you take the main ruling Targaryen branch then the first non-Valyrian blood enters the bloodline with Mariah Martell, possibly followed by Dyanna Dayne and Betha Blackwood. That's it. Maegor I had no children, Alicent Hightower's Targaryen branch died out, and all the other non-Targaryen brides of the main line were either Velaryons (Alyssa and Daenaera) or Larra Rogare (who may easily have had as much dragonlord blood as the Targaryens themselves).

Since Aelinor Penrose (and perhaps Jena Dondarrion, too) was a cousin of Aerys I on the Targaryen side of the family it is not impossible that Dyanna Dayne was a cousin to the same degree - and if Targaryen-Dayne kinship is going to become important to the plot for this or that reason then the fact that Maekar took a Dayne bride might be important for all that.

Even Betha Blackwood could have had Targaryen blood if it turned out that one of Bloodraven's two sisters ended up marrying back into the main line of House Blackwood. In light of Bloodraven's prominence at court and the fact that these two girls would also have profited from the legitimization decree of Aegon the Unworthy such a marriage isn't completely out of the question.

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Granted my memory is quite addled, but I seem to remember an idea kicked around here shortly after the World Book was published that Targaryen madness was exacerbated following the death of the dragons.  (In fact if memory serves correct @Lord Varys had much to do with the discussion).  This, of course, depends on one's definition of madness - personally I would place Maegor, Daemon, and Aemond in a "tormented by power" category rather than any genetic madness (although the case of Maegor is certainly curious, and something of an anomaly).  Pre-Dragon death we only really have Gael and, arguably, Jaehaera (I don't count Helaena due to circumstances) that appear to exhibit genetically-produced deficiencies.  Of course, there's overlap with Daeron I and Baelor I which could be supportive or contradictory to the premise depending on the interpretation.

But it seems there was a clear proportional rise in general torment post-Dragon death among Targaryens, to the point where probably the most grounded Targaryen, Egg, met his ruin due to rebirth obsession.  The coin flip paradigm strongly suggests incest has much to do with Targaryen madness, but I just wanted to reiterate this proposition because I think it's a cool idea.

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15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Depending how George's gene stuff works the occasional infusion of non-Valyrian blood may have little to no effect at all - and if you take the main ruling Targaryen branch then the first non-Valyrian blood enters the bloodline with Mariah Martell, possibly followed by Dyanna Dayne and Betha Blackwood. That's it. Maegor I had no children, Alicent Hightower's Targaryen branch died out, and all the other non-Targaryen brides of the main line were either Velaryons (Alyssa and Daenaera) or Larra Rogare (who may easily have had as much dragonlord blood as the Targaryens themselves).

Well, to my best knowledge the Velaryons didn't practice brother-sister incest so while they were closely related relations to the Targaryens, that union was not that genetically worse than,say, other lords marrying their bannermen (look at the Tyrell-Redwyne marriages,for example). In fact, I was always surprised that it is only the Targaryens whose madness was blamed on inbreeding, most houses in Westeros don't seem to have that big a pool of potential spouces either.
Oh,on Larra Rogare,since she was the daughter of a banker and shunned by the nobblemen for it, I think that she had pretty humble origins, thus while Valyrian, her gene pool was probably varied

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Even Betha Blackwood could have had Targaryen blood if it turned out that one of Bloodraven's two sisters ended up marrying back into the main line of House Blackwood. In light of Bloodraven's prominence at court and the fact that these two girls would also have profited from the legitimization decree of Aegon the Unworthy such a marriage isn't completely out of the question.

From the lack of mention of Mya and Gwenys in the Great Bastards I was under the impression they died in infancy or unmarried, but I could be wrong.

6 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Granted my memory is quite addled, but I seem to remember an idea kicked around here shortly after the World Book was published that Targaryen madness was exacerbated following the death of the dragons.  (In fact if memory serves correct @Lord Varys had much to do with the discussion).  This, of course, depends on one's definition of madness - personally I would place Maegor, Daemon, and Aemond in a "tormented by power" category rather than any genetic madness (although the case of Maegor is certainly curious, and something of an anomaly).  Pre-Dragon death we only really have Gael and, arguably, Jaehaera (I don't count Helaena due to circumstances) that appear to exhibit genetically-produced deficiencies.  Of course, there's overlap with Daeron I and Baelor I which could be supportive or contradictory to the premise depending on the interpretation.

But it seems there was a clear proportional rise in general torment post-Dragon death among Targaryens, to the point where probably the most grounded Targaryen, Egg, met his ruin due to rebirth obsession.  The coin flip paradigm strongly suggests incest has much to do with Targaryen madness, but I just wanted to reiterate this proposition because I think it's a cool idea.

I thought of Aemond too, but I can't detect elements in his personality that speak of definite madness, he sounds like a prick, and a vengeful one and hot-headed one, but not deranged. Same goes for Daemon, ruthless, ambitious and with a dash of cruelty and ADD but crazy, no.

Maegor, on the other hand, has cruel moments that, while they have some rationality behind them, it is not one you would call brutal but sane, like the murder of the builders. In fact, he reminds me alot of real-world phychopathic serial-killers.

On the dragon matter though I agree with you, before the death of the dragons we have much fewer mentally challenged Targaryens that we know of and only Maegor could be considered the truly dangerous one bonded with a dragon. He is a riddle to me really, it is not only incest, his parent's fairly advanced age and latter physical trauma that made him, I believe there were some more unnatural elements to it aswell. Maybe in his conception, maybe Tyanna's mysterious treatment, maybe both

 

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8 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Granted my memory is quite addled, but I seem to remember an idea kicked around here shortly after the World Book was published that Targaryen madness was exacerbated following the death of the dragons.  (In fact if memory serves correct @Lord Varys had much to do with the discussion).  This, of course, depends on one's definition of madness - personally I would place Maegor, Daemon, and Aemond in a "tormented by power" category rather than any genetic madness (although the case of Maegor is certainly curious, and something of an anomaly).  Pre-Dragon death we only really have Gael and, arguably, Jaehaera (I don't count Helaena due to circumstances) that appear to exhibit genetically-produced deficiencies.  Of course, there's overlap with Daeron I and Baelor I which could be supportive or contradictory to the premise depending on the interpretation.

But it seems there was a clear proportional rise in general torment post-Dragon death among Targaryens, to the point where probably the most grounded Targaryen, Egg, met his ruin due to rebirth obsession.  The coin flip paradigm strongly suggests incest has much to do with Targaryen madness, but I just wanted to reiterate this proposition because I think it's a cool idea.

I just wanted to make the point that I think incestuous parents do not make it more or less likely that a Targaryen turns out to be great or mad. Whether the incest actually has anything to do with the greatness-madness thing is a separate issue. I don't think the incest caused this, but it clearly is responsible that whatever caused this dichotomy in the Targaryen bloodline was conserved despite the occasional infusion of new blood.

My idea there was that what we call 'Targaryen madness' did really only come up after the last dragon died. Or rather, those Targaryens who were unambiguously considered to be mad only lived after the death of the dragons.

In addition, there is the fact that all the Targaryens who suffered from 'mad delusions' or 'dragon dreams' which had an effect on their sanity/led to their demise definitely lived after the death of the dragons. This includes Targaryens like Aerys II (who had delusions/dreams about transforming himself physically into a dragon), Prince Aerion Brightflame (who tried to transform himself into a dragon by drinking wildfire after having dreams about this kind of thing), Prince Daeron (who couldn't stand his prophetic dragon dreams), and Aegon V (whose dreams led to his demise at Summerhall).

About the nature of the only other 'mad Targaryen' of this day and age, Prince Rhaegel, we don't know enough to make a judgment. Of Maekar's sons only Aerion is considered to be somewhat mad, of course. Prince Daeron and Aegon V aren't really considered to be mad but might have had severe mental problems at different points late in their lives.

If we compare this generation of dragonless Targaryens (and include the other eccentric Targaryens like Baelor the Blessed, Daeron I, and possibly even Aegon the Unworthy) with the pre-Dance Targaryens then it seems that 'Targaryen madness' wasn't exactly a common thing back in the days the Targaryens were still dragonriders.

In addition with the detailed account on Aenys I in 'The Sons of the Dragon' I've come up with the theory that the Targaryens might actually need to bond with a dragon to be or become 'whole' as a person. If we go with the theory that they literally have 'the blood of the dragon' - meaning that there was some magical ritual messing with the human genes of the dragonlords of old which fundamentally changed their genetic makeup - then their ability to bond with a dragon might not just be a cool ability but actually some deep urge or need within their blood/nature. And it is easily imaginable that the continuous inability to fulfill that need or create a bond with a dragon has its effects on the Targaryen psyche and increases the probability that a Targaryen develops mental issues/delusions/madness.

We can be reasonably sure that neither Aerion nor Aerys II would have developed delusions revolving around dragons if they had been dragonriders, just as Aegon V would never have tried to bring the dragons back if the Targaryens still had had dragons at this point.

Vice versa, we see that the health of Prince Aenys - who was a very sick and weak child - improved considerably after he bonded with the dragon hatchling Quicksilver at the age of three.

In light of that the theory goes that being a dragonrider actually stabilizes/improves the mental and physical health of a Targaryen. It sort of grounds him or her, and helps him to deal with the crises of life. If you are a dragonless Targaryen the risk is much bigger that you are more unbalanced and the crises and traumas you might go through have a much bigger chance to unhinge you mentally.

The other good example aside from Aenys I - who clearly profited from his bond with Quicksilver - would be Prince Daemon. The man is actually character-wise a lot like young Aerys II - they seem to have similar mood swings. Daemon is either unwilling or incapable of sticking to a task/office, and shows a lot of erratic behavior in his youth/middle years (e.g. the fact that he lacks the stamina to serve on the Small Council, and the fact that he eventually just abandons his kingdom on the Stepstones - not to mention his strange/irrational decision to abandon Nettles and throw away his life in the end) that actually somewhat resembles Aerys II's changeable nature in his early years. The difference is that Aerys II changes his mind about women all the time.

My guess would be that Prince Daemon actually had the potential to become a real mad Targaryen had he not had Caraxes to ground him. He even had innate sadistic tendencies like Aerion Brightflame and Maegor the Cruel.

Maegor is the only pre-Dance Targaryen who may be considered mad. But his case is special for a number of reasons. First there is the fact that he might have been conceived through magic (either as a male clone of Visenya or with a spell helping Aegon's bad semen along) which may have damaged both his mind and body considerably, causing his overall sadistic tendencies as well as his sterility. Then there was this blow to his head which send him to a coma for a month - and we have just the word of the historians that it was a coma and not death. Magic can resurrect people in this world, so Maegor might actually have been resurrected rather than healed by Tyanna of the Tower. Whatever she did might have changed him further.

But the fact remains that Maegor was just a very cruel person. There is no hint that he was mentally unstable or mad in the sense that he had weird dreams or delusions. He suffered some sort of psychic breakdown/depression in the end but that might have been completely the effect of Tyanna's betrayal and the birth of his monstrous children in 48 AC.

But if you want to add Maegor to the mad Targaryens this would actually be in line with my 'dragon theory' there, because Maegor was a dragonless Targaryen for most of his life. If the Targaryen nature demands a dragon bond then Maegor not claiming a dragon until his father's death freed Balerion for him may have actually helped to unbalance/unhinge him. Maegor was twenty-five in 37 AC when the Conqueror died, and if we a assume a dragon can have a positive effect on the development of a Targaryen in his childhood/youth then Balerion never had such positive effects on Maegor in the crucial times.

Gael, Helaena, and Jaehaera do not qualify as mad Targaryens. Gael and Jaehaera had mental issues, but they were not mad, just simple as was Prince Daeron's daughter Vaella. This could also have been an effect of the Targaryen's dragon genes, as might be the deformities of Prince Jaehaerys and Jaehaerys II as well as the many monstrous stillbirths, but it is just as likely that those children were just mentally challenged because they either suffered from normal real world afflictions or were rendered mentally challenged because something went wrong when they were born.

Helaena just went through a lot during the Dance, and subsequently suffered some sort of severe breakdown. Perhaps she could have recovered if her family had actually cared for her, perhaps not. That is difficult to say. Aegon II clearly didn't even make the attempt to care for his sister-wife.

Aemond is also not mad in any meaningful sense. The man was just a youth with a temper, way too over-confident, and actually outright stupid. That is a very dangerous combination. He also had some sadistic tendencies and actually seems to resemble young Prince Daemon a lot - which either of them would most likely deny, of course. One could easily see a young Daemon being outmaneuvered and fucked with the same way by an experienced battle commander the same Daemon fucked with Aemond during the Dance.

1 hour ago, Lemon of Lemonwood said:

Well, to my best knowledge the Velaryons didn't practice brother-sister incest so while they were closely related relations to the Targaryens, that union was not that genetically worse than,say, other lords marrying their bannermen (look at the Tyrell-Redwyne marriages,for example). In fact, I was always surprised that it is only the Targaryens whose madness was blamed on inbreeding, most houses in Westeros don't seem to have that big a pool of potential spouces either.
Oh,on Larra Rogare,since she was the daughter of a banker and shunned by the nobblemen for it, I think that she had pretty humble origins, thus while Valyrian, her gene pool was probably varied

From the lack of mention of Mya and Gwenys in the Great Bastards I was under the impression they died in infancy or unmarried, but I could be wrong.

The Velaryons don't seem to practice incest in Westeros, but they were involved in Targaryen incest by proxy (they married close Velaryon relations back into the Targaryen line). But they might have practiced incest in their own right prior to the Conquest. We know incest was most prominent among the dragonlord families but not exclusively practiced by them. Other Valyrian nobility emulated the dragonlords, making it not impossible that the Velaryons - which started as a non-dragonrider house - married brother to sister back in Valyria or during the times they ruled Driftmark in their own right prior to the Conquest. This would then have ended because incest was only an option for the royal family after the Conquest.

But my point with the Velaryons doesn't hinge of the fact that they preserved their dragonlord blood via incest but the fact that the Targaryens constantly married spare daughters into House Velaryon - Aegon's mother Valaena Velaryon had a Targaryen mother herself, and Alyssa Velaryon was Aenys I's cousin to an unspecified degree. This means that most/all of the Velaryon brides of the Targaryens up to Daenaera Velaryon may have had enough Targaryen/dragonlord blood to make it effectively the next best thing to an incestuous marriage.

And keep in mind that the continuous incest seems to have made the Targaryen genes very stable. Alicent Hightower (and Harwin Strong, if he was the father of Rhaenyra's sons) had no effect on the potential of her children to become dragonriders. If the Targaryen bloodline can deal with the occasional infusion of 'foreign blood' then one could make the case that marrying a spouse with some Targaryen ancestors (like a Velaryon bride, Aemma Arryn, or a second or third Targaryen cousin) could actually help strengthen the Targaryen genes rather than weakening them. It wouldn't be as good as brother-sister incest, of course, but the next best thing.

The Rogares are the most powerful family in Lys in the days of the Triarchy, apparently. Larra's amazing Valyrian features make it also very likely that the house is an old Valyrian bloodline, possibly even a cadet branch of a powerful dragonlord house. We know that Lys was founded as a pleasure retreat by the dragonlords, and just as some dragonlord cousins settled in Volantis, others might have settled in Lys. I'd not be surprised one bit if the main line of House Rogare had been a dragonlord house in Valyria prior to the Doom.

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8 hours ago, Lemon of Lemonwood said:

I thought of Aemond too, but I can't detect elements in his personality that speak of definite madness, he sounds like a prick, and a vengeful one and hot-headed one, but not deranged. Same goes for Daemon, ruthless, ambitious and with a dash of cruelty and ADD but crazy, no.

Maegor, on the other hand, has cruel moments that, while they have some rationality behind them, it is not one you would call brutal but sane, like the murder of the builders. In fact, he reminds me alot of real-world phychopathic serial-killers.

On the dragon matter though I agree with you, before the death of the dragons we have much fewer mentally challenged Targaryens that we know of and only Maegor could be considered the truly dangerous one bonded with a dragon. He is a riddle to me really, it is not only incest, his parent's fairly advanced age and latter physical trauma that made him, I believe there were some more unnatural elements to it aswell. Maybe in his conception, maybe Tyanna's mysterious treatment, maybe both

 

Oh yeah I totally agree on your characterizations of Aemond and Daemon, just wanted to distinguish between Targs some could potentially consider "mad" pre-dragon death and the madness of those post-DD.  And Maegor is, of course, a unique case or anomaly.  I don't think it's useful to use him in any type of comparisons until we know more about the nature of his conception and, as LV pointed out, perhaps his "coma." 

I tend towards considering "mentally challenged" Targs as not really reflecting anything special about the their genes.  As you noted, Gael likely had very old parents at conception and with Vaella who knows, maybe there was a contagion effect with Daeron's alcoholism to Kiera during the pregnancy.  While I was trying to be thorough in the previous post, generally I prefer to differentiate between the few examples of Targs perhaps on the spectrum with Targs demonstrating some type of "madness."  That makes Rhaegel an interesting case, since we don't know much about him.  While pure speculation, it's quite possible his behavior/condition was caused by "dragon-haunting" more than any mental deficiency per se.  Taken in this context, the "simple minded" examples may merely reflect the fact we know more (and more about) Targaryens than any other House.

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Snip

Thanks for detailing the idea, forgot about the Aenys part which is key.  Another "post-dragon death" Targ worth consideration is Aerys I.  His bookish obsession, particularly in regards to prophecy, could have been activated by dragon obsession.  Hell, you could argue the latter, and its subsequent influence on Egg, is the original cause of the Targaryen downfall in general from a path-dependent perspective.  Further, if you think of obsession in other activities/interests as a way to "fill the hole" left by the death of dragons, Baelor the Blessed's (to a lesser extent Rhaena and Naerys) religious zealotry could be thought of as dragon-induced.  Daemon II Blackfyre is another one whose dragon dreams led to his downfall.

I do wonder about extending this analysis to the Velaryons and perhaps even the Baratheons based on their considerable Targ blood.  Unfortunately we know little to nothing about the Velaryons post dragon-death, although looking at the Baratheons following the Targ "re-infusement" of Rhaelle is interesting.

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20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The man is actually character-wise a lot like young Aerys II - they seem to have similar mood swings. Daemon is either unwilling or incapable of sticking to a task/office, and shows a lot of erratic behavior in his youth/middle years (e.g. the fact that he lacks the stamina to serve on the Small Council, and the fact that he eventually just abandons his kingdom on the Stepstones - not to mention his strange/irrational decision to abandon Nettles and throw away his life in the end) that actually somewhat resembles Aerys II's changeable nature in his early years. The difference is that Aerys II changes his mind about women all the time.

My guess would be that Prince Daemon actually had the potential to become a real mad Targaryen had he not had Caraxes to ground him. He even had innate sadistic tendencies like Aerion Brightflame and Maegor the Cruel.

Actually if you are looking for a descendant of Daemon that resembles him in character there is Oberyn Martell.

I think much of Daemon's ( and Oberyn's ) restlessness and easy boredom can be attributed to A.D.H.D., since they both appear restless, capricious, easily bored, unable to focus on a task perceived boring by them, are prone to inappropriate behavior yet can become hellbent on a task that truly matters to them.

As for his death it doesn't strike me as a heratic action. Aemond posed the greatest threat to his family, not for his military brilliance,of course (if the had any to begin with), but because with Aegon grievously injured, baby Maelor dead and Jaehaera being her father's only remaining child, he was the de facto heir, eligible to marriage ties to the Baratheons and capable of having heirs. Plus,he controlled Vhagar and had been laying waste to the black's Riverlands.

Maybe he had also reached a point in life where his actions and their impacts starting to affect him. He had lost two sons, a daughter and a wife he apparently loved (Laena), plus two nephews (it is not very clear whether he did love Jace,Luke and Joffrey, but the boys were very young when he married Rhaenyra and the families were close when Laena lived, plus he avenged Luke immediately). Age could have mellowed him slightly. Maybe the threat to someone special's life reminded him of the other deaths and on how he, a man worse than them, kept living. His response to Aemond seems to indicate so.

Therefore, I think his decision resembles a lot that of Rhaenys in Rook's Rest: an older fighter dying nobly to inflict the highest harm possible to the enemy.

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17 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Thanks for detailing the idea, forgot about the Aenys part which is key.  Another "post-dragon death" Targ worth consideration is Aerys I.  His bookish obsession, particularly in regards to prophecy, could have been activated by dragon obsession.  Hell, you could argue the latter, and its subsequent influence on Egg, is the original cause of the Targaryen downfall in general from a path-dependent perspective.  Further, if you think of obsession in other activities/interests as a way to "fill the hole" left by the death of dragons, Baelor the Blessed's (to a lesser extent Rhaena and Naerys) religious zealotry could be thought of as dragon-induced.  Daemon II Blackfyre is another one whose dragon dreams led to his downfall.

I do wonder about extending this analysis to the Velaryons and perhaps even the Baratheons based on their considerable Targ blood.  Unfortunately we know little to nothing about the Velaryons post dragon-death, although looking at the Baratheons following the Targ "re-infusement" of Rhaelle is interesting.

Aerys I's eccentricity certainly could also be connected to dragons. We know he was obsessed with ancient scrolls dealing with magic. Dragonlore could have been a huge part of that - but that isn't necessarily the case. Perhaps he was just generally fascinated by old stuff?

We'll have to wait and see.

I think Baelor's zealotry/piety has more to do with his personal preferences than dragons. Although he, too, was obsessed with dragons at one point since he apparently prayed over dragon eggs for days in a failed attempt to hatch them.

But I think the main reason for his religious zealotry was his near-death experience in Dorne. That pushed him over the age. Prior to that he was already very religious but still sane and actually very capable in using his religious convictions as a political tool to get what he wanted. After all, the man forced both his own court/lords and the Martells into a peace treaty simply by playing the humility card. That was a great accomplishment.

We have no idea if there are any mad Velaryons but there is quite a number of eccentric Baratheons. Stannis greatly resembles his great-great-grandfather Maekar Targaryen, at least insofar as his temperament is concerned.

But it is clear that some Targaryen-abilities manifested in bloodlines in which a Targaryen descendant married into. The best example for that would be the prophetic dreams of Teora Toland who most likely is descended from a younger child of Daenerys Targaryen and Maron Martell.

 

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22 minutes ago, Lemon of Lemonwood said:

Actually if you are looking for a descendant of Daemon that resembles him in character there is Oberyn Martell.

I think much of Daemon's ( and Oberyn's ) restlessness and easy boredom can be attributed to A.D.H.D., since they both appear restless, capricious, easily bored, unable to focus on a task perceived boring by them, are prone to inappropriate behavior yet can become hellbent on a task that truly matters to them.

As for his death it doesn't strike me as a heratic action. Aemond posed the greatest threat to his family, not for his military brilliance,of course (if the had any to begin with), but because with Aegon grievously injured, baby Maelor dead and Jaehaera being her father's only remaining child, he was the de facto heir, eligible to marriage ties to the Baratheons and capable of having heirs. Plus,he controlled Vhagar and had been laying waste to the black's Riverlands.

Maybe he had also reached a point in life where his actions and their impacts starting to affect him. He had lost two sons, a daughter and a wife he apparently loved (Laena), plus two nephews (it is not very clear whether he did love Jace,Luke and Joffrey, but the boys were very young when he married Rhaenyra and the families were close when Laena lived, plus he avenged Luke immediately). Age could have mellowed him slightly. Maybe the threat to someone special's life reminded him of the other deaths and on how he, a man worse than them, kept living. His response to Aemond seems to indicate so.

Therefore, I think his decision resembles a lot that of Rhaenys in Rook's Rest: an older fighter dying nobly to inflict the highest harm possible to the enemy.

I agree about the similarities between Daemon and Oberyn (although I'm not sure Oberyn ever was as restless/irresponsible as Daemon; the former actually had the stamina to forge multiple links at the Citadel - I don't see a young Daemon ever doing that) but your analysis of Daemon's death is wrong.

Aemond wasn't the greatest threat to Daemon's family. Yes, he rode the biggest dragon, but the fool was incapable of actually using this asset for political gain. Rhaenyra/Daemon could actually completely ignore Aemond and Vhagar and still win the war. The Riverlands aren't everything.

In addition, Daemon's decision to go after Aemond himself is erratic and insane for a number of reasons:

1. If he really loved and had an affair with Nettles and the order to execute Nettles disillusioned/horrified him - why the hell did he not leave Westeros with Nettles? Why the hell should anyone be triggered by such a turn of events to challenge his nephew - who had nothing to do with this development - to a duel?

2. If the order enraged him as his words about Rhaenyra seem to suggest - why the hell didn't he take Caraxes and Nettles/Sheepstealer back to KL to deal with his wife? What we know suggests that Daemon and not Rhaenyra controlled the Goldcloaks so it should have been easily possible for Daemon to actually depose Rhaenyra and claim the crown either for himself or in the name of young Aegon III.

3. Daemon completely ignores his own advice at the end of his life. At the beginning of the Dance he was determined not to throw away the lives of dragons in a fight they could not win (or would not gain them much). In the end he did exactly that. While there is a small chance that Daemon himself actually survived the fall into the Gods Eye (he could have jumped off Vhagar's back in the right moment to swim to the Isle of Faces, and he wouldn't have drowned because he wasn't chained to a dragon) it is still pretty clear he sacrificed the life of his dragon Caraxes to take out Vhagar. Why did he do that? Neither Rhaenyra nor Aegon the Younger really profited from Daemon's death/disappearance. With Daemon still at their side he could have helped them win the war - with him out of the picture the chances were much bigger that the Greens would finally prevail.

4. Finally there is the separation from Nettles in itself. This just doesn't make any sense in any scenario. If Daemon still wanted to go after Aemond they could have done so together. All they needed to do was choosing a different base, perhaps one in the wild like Aemond had done all the time. If Rhaenyra's people didn't knew where they were she could not possibly sent hired knifes after them, could she? Else people would long have cut Aemond's throat in his sleep. The best interpretation for this separation in my opinion is that Daemon was really hurt and possibly broken by Rhaenyra's order to kill Nettles. It was the last straw that broke him and he then challenged Aemond to this duel because that was better than just committing suicide. But it is quite clear that Daemon just used Aemond as a tool to get himself killed - if we assume he actually died in the process. This interpretation only makes sense if Daemon was still in love with Rhaenyra when the letter came - either he and Nettles didn't have an affair, or that affair was mainly sexually motivated on his part and he had no intention to actually leave Rhaenyra. My personal guess is that Nettles was actually Daemon's bastard daughter (fathered on the Stepstones on some sailor's wife or daughter who went there on one of the Velaryon ships) and he wasn't (necessarily) close to her romantically but as a father (but a combination could work rather fine - Targaryen incest should also include parent-child incest, and if we assume that Daemon had at first no idea that Nettles was his seed such an affair is easily imaginable).

Oh, and Rhaenys and Daemon have nothing in common. Rhaenys didn't fly to Rook's Rest with the intention to die or to sacrifice her dragon. She chose to fight rather than flee when she had no other choice, but that's entirely different from Daemon. He deliberately chose to challenge Aemond to a duel, and he knew that Caraxes would never survive such an encounter. Even his own plan to kill Aemond was a very desperate one. The plan would never have worked if it had been a cloudless day, nor if Vhagar had reacted quicker and ripped Caraxes to pieces (or knocked Daemon out of his saddle) before Daemon could have made his jump

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

snip

The threat Aemond poses is not so much as the rider of Vhagar (though no matter how incompetent the rider, the dragon is still a formidable weapon), but as the heir of his brother. Had Aemond survived, even if Aegon Ii died with no son, he would be the next king and have heirs of his own soon, so realistically, the war would go on and the blacks would see their chances of winning grow ever slimmer.

True enough, the Riverlands aren't everything, but the blacks at this point didn't have so many assets to spare them. 

1. And go where? The Free Cities? With two fractions wishing them dead, they wouldn't be likely to settle somewhere,, sooner or later someone would make their host an offer he couln't refuse and they 'd be either dead or on the go.The Dothaki sea? They could stay hidden there probably,but what else would they do? Take over a khalasar and pillage where they could (not a bad prospect coming to think of it)

2.That could be, but again, Nettles would be at risk the moment she got to KL. Mysaria would kepp check of the crown spies and warn Daemon,of course, but even she couldn't vouch for every single man in the Red Keep.

3. Again, it is not Vhagar alone, it is the possible Aemond I, fertile, able-bodied and with blood ties to the Baratheons and Hightowers, riding Vhagar. So the blacks gain alot by his elimination.

4.What bothers me with what happened in Maidenpol is that what information we have comes from Norren. It is said that in the letter Rhaenyra named Nettles a traitor on the grounds of sleeping with her husband, but then again the Chronicles of Maidenpool are basecally the glorified version on why lord Mooton turned his cloak (and quite poorly written to be fare, all those melodramatic gestures and speeches, it would make a fine soap-opera).

I don't think Daemon was really in love with Rhaenyra, he found her attractive in her prime, but their mariage was mostly a calculated move for political power on both parts. What if Rhaenyra knew Netles was his bastard, though? Wouldn't it devastate and anger him that after the dravery she showed she was still declared a traitor, not unlike Corlys and Addam? 

Overall, despite my obvious sympathies to Daemon, I admitt he was also ruthless, cruel,hotheaded and at times irresponsible, but I don't see him being mad.

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1 hour ago, Lemon of Lemonwood said:

The threat Aemond poses is not so much as the rider of Vhagar (though no matter how incompetent the rider, the dragon is still a formidable weapon), but as the heir of his brother. Had Aemond survived, even if Aegon Ii died with no son, he would be the next king and have heirs of his own soon, so realistically, the war would go on and the blacks would see their chances of winning grow ever slimmer.

True enough, the Riverlands aren't everything, but the blacks at this point didn't have so many assets to spare them. 

1. And go where? The Free Cities? With two fractions wishing them dead, they wouldn't be likely to settle somewhere,, sooner or later someone would make their host an offer he couln't refuse and they 'd be either dead or on the go.The Dothaki sea? They could stay hidden there probably,but what else would they do? Take over a khalasar and pillage where they could (not a bad prospect coming to think of it)

2.That could be, but again, Nettles would be at risk the moment she got to KL. Mysaria would kepp check of the crown spies and warn Daemon,of course, but even she couldn't vouch for every single man in the Red Keep.

3. Again, it is not Vhagar alone, it is the possible Aemond I, fertile, able-bodied and with blood ties to the Baratheons and Hightowers, riding Vhagar. So the blacks gain alot by his elimination.

4.What bothers me with what happened in Maidenpol is that what information we have comes from Norren. It is said that in the letter Rhaenyra named Nettles a traitor on the grounds of sleeping with her husband, but then again the Chronicles of Maidenpool are basecally the glorified version on why lord Mooton turned his cloak (and quite poorly written to be fare, all those melodramatic gestures and speeches, it would make a fine soap-opera).

I don't think Daemon was really in love with Rhaenyra, he found her attractive in her prime, but their mariage was mostly a calculated move for political power on both parts. What if Rhaenyra knew Netles was his bastard, though? Wouldn't it devastate and anger him that after the dravery she showed she was still declared a traitor, not unlike Corlys and Addam? 

Overall, despite my obvious sympathies to Daemon, I admitt he was also ruthless, cruel,hotheaded and at times irresponsible, but I don't see him being mad.

Well, overall the plan would have been to defeat the Greens in the field. If that had worked - and it sort of worked in the end - a dragonriding Aemond would just have been an outlaw and traitor under Rhaenyra I or Aegon III. Just as he basically was during the war after he left Ser Criston Cole and his army.

You have to keep in mind that most Greens thought Rhaenyra had executed Aegon II in secret after she had taken the capital, and it was confirmed that both his sons were dead by the time. Prince Aemond certainly would have been able set himself up as the leader of the Greens (either as King Aemond I or continuing as Prince Regent) but it is clear that he chose not to do that. If he had flown on Vhagar to Prince Daeron and the Hightower army there is no doubt that he would have ended up in charge. But he didn't do any of that sort, and subsequently he wasn't actually a big political threat to the Blacks throughout the majority of the war.

It seems as if Rhaenyra sent Daemon and Nettles on their hunt for Daemon as a favor to her Riverlord allies. This was hardly necessary from a strategic point of view.

1. Yeah, they could have gone anywhere. Hell, Daemon could even have accompanied Nettles to the Mountains of the Moon. There is no hint that she was ever searched out and killed there by some hired knives or something like that. But going east would have been a great option. They could have founded their own free company, conquered a Free City, and set themselves up as the founders of a new dragonlord dynasty. Or they could indeed have taken over the Dothraki. The Targaryens in Westeros would have lacked both the strength and the dragons to actually come after them.

2. Well, as soon as Prince Daemon had deposed Rhaenyra, Nettles would have been safe, of course. Nobody would have continued to follow her orders after her downfall. 

3. I'm not saying the removal of Aemond and Vhagar was no boon for the Blacks. But the loss of Prince Daemon and Caraxes was a major blow for the Black cause. The political savvy move for Daemon would have been to return to KL with his two dragons, to either depose Rhaenyra or rein her in, fortify the defenses of KL and make the Greens march against him. With Caraxes, Syrax, Sheepstealer, and Caraxes Daemon would have been able to deal with the Hightower army as well as Vhagar should either of them eventually attack the city. Especially in light of the fact that the Hightower army had lost all its dragonriders in the meantime.

4. The question whether Rhaenyra actually drew up an execution order and sent it by raven to Maidenpool is a different matter entirely. It is not just the quite unrealistic Norren heroics in that story that cast doubt on the whole thing, but also the fact that there was clearly an anti-Rhaenyra conspiracy going on in KL during the whole affair of the Storming of the Dragonpit. The Shepherd and his entire movement smells like a conspiracy conducted by people who used Green partisans in the city for their own ends - to eradicate all the dragons. The core hints in that direction is the suddenness in which the uprisings began as soon as the news about Helaena's apparent murder reached the public as well as the fact that the people went completely mad in the process but still had sufficient weaponry to actually slay the dragons in the Dragonpit (and Syrax, who wasn't even handicapped by chains). 

In that sense I'd not be surprised one bit if Rhaenyra's court actually included some secret Greens agents who faked a letter from the Queen to Lord Mooton in an attempt to drive a wedge between Rhaenyra and Daemon. They could have either feigned the entire letter or merely changed the sentence from Nettles' arrest to her execution. Something similar most likely also happened at Storm's End when the maester of the castle whispered the contents of Rhaenyra's letter in the ear of the illiterate Borros Baratheon. That way Lucerys Velaryon had no chance to actually correct the maester's 'interpretation' of the letter (if we assume Luke actually knew the contents of the letter verbatim) because he never even heard what the maester told Lord Borros. And one assumes that the maester changed the tone of the letter from the polite plea for help in the coming war (based on the kinship between houses Baratheon, Velaryon, and Targaryen) Rhaenyra actually wrote to a rude and haughty command. The idea that Rhaenyra would actually have written a haughty command and then charged her own son to deliver such a message makes little sense. Even more so considering the fact that Jace apparently didn't deliver commands to the Vale and the North, either, so we can easily rule that out.

In regards to the relationship between Daemon and Rhaenyra I'm actually more in favor of Daemon eventually falling for his niece later in life rather than him being into her as a girl. What we read about him in TRP suggests that he only considered her as means to the throne back then, but later on it is Rhaenyra who gives Daemon the sons he always wanted. And Daemon's radical decision to throw away his own life rather than fly into the sunset with Nettles, turning against Rhaenyra (he could also have defected to the Greens, if you think about it), or continuing the war in the name of Aegon the Younger is a pretty strong sign that Rhaenyra's letter there dealt him a nearly mortal blow. And that makes only sense if he had actual feelings for her and felt betrayed.

Aside from dragon dreams Daemon really has the same potentially mad tendencies as Aerion Brightflame and Maegor the Cruel. He has sadistic tendencies and has no problem whatsoever at being cruel and ruthless.

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On 4/5/2016 at 11:22 PM, jasonothegreat said:

So, I was reading through the World of Ice and Fire again, as you do when you have no life... AND I realized something. While the Targaryens are known for incest and sibling marriages; Not **many** of them have actually been a product of such marriages. Now of course there have been cousin marriages to bring out heirs to the Iron Throne, Not many have been the traditional Brother-Sister Marriages. In fact, with the exception of King Daeron II, the greatest Kings to sit the Iron Throne were in fact not born from incest. 

Even King Aegon wasn't from a brother-sister marriage, his mother was a Velaryon. Same with King Jaehaerys I.

 And the List of Great/Good Kings goes on:

King Daeron I

King Baelor I

King Aegon V

Even the Reasonable Kings

King Viserys II (Uncle and Niece I know its a stretch)

King Maekar

King Jaehaerys II

 6 of the 17 Targ Kings were born out of Non-Targaryen Unions

This increases to 8 of the 17 if you include Aegon III and Viserys II

And of the Great/Good Kings (Who I count by them being just and good and all that): (Aegon, Jaehaerys, Daeron, Baelor, Daeron II, Aegon V) <---- If we say that these Kings are the the most glorious and Good, notice, only 1 of the 6 was born from a brother-sister Union. 

Now  to accentuate my point, lets look at the worst Kings to Sit the Throne:

King Aenys

King  Maegor

King Aegon II

King Aegon IV

King Aerys II

Of these five sinful Kings, 3 of the 5 were born from strict brother-sister sister incest. Do you think this was coincidence? Do you think GRR Martin is telling us something about incest? Am I being stupid?

Do you think I'm Right? Do you think it was intentional for the great Targ Kings to be not born from Incest while the Bad ones were? 

P.S: we might even Say King Daeron II is born not born from a true incest union if he is the offspring of Aemon the Dragonknight, they might have still been siblings but that would also make him illegitimate so take it how you will. 

Sinful?

 

Maegor the Great and Awesome was the best King Westeros ever had. He was also one of the few who recognized the threat that the Faith posed. His only mistake was not recognizing that they worked hand in hand with the Maesters as well and that the whole thing was a Hightower plot!

 

Maegor Did Nothing Wrong!

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8 hours ago, Vashon said:

Sinful?

 

Maegor the Great and Awesome was the best King Westeros ever had. He was also one of the few who recognized the threat that the Faith posed. His only mistake was not recognizing that they worked hand in hand with the Maesters as well and that the whole thing was a Hightower plot!

 

Maegor Did Nothing Wrong!

There was no Hightower plot. Not this time. Maegor the Fool dared provoke the High Septon and the Hightowers by humiliating Ceryse Hightower when he took a second wife and House Targaryen and the Realm paid the price in blood.

The Hightowers also seem to have little to nothing to do with any anti-dragon plots the Citadel might have cooked. The early Hightowers - Lord Manfred and Lord Martyn - were all after the Iron Throne. They wanted to marry their women into House Targaryens to have dragonriding grandchildren.

Otto and Alicent finally succeeded at that, and they clearly had no issues with the dragons at all. Aegon II, Helaena, Aemond, and Daeron all prove that.

Chances are that the anti-dragon sentiments go back to the machinations of surviving Poor Fellows who may or may not have been in cahoots with the Citadel. But during the Dance the Hightowers clearly weren't complicit in any anti-dragon politics. If the were Green agents involved in the uprisings that led to the Storming of the Dragonpit then they were used/mislead by a secret anti-dragon conspiracy/cabal.

And the final anti-dragon conspiracy must have been implemented during the Regency of Aegon III. We see that Grand Maester Munkun did not only as regent throughout the entire Regency but also was the only regent as well as the Hand at one point. That would have given him tremendous power, more than enough to put a plan in motion to poison the remaining dragons.

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19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There was no Hightower plot. Not this time. Maegor the Full .

Fool?

And no, its pretty obvious the Hightowers were in on the shit from the beginning. They and their little puppets bitched an interfered everytime there was a chance for a Dragonmother to marry or to lead.

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54 minutes ago, Vashon said:

Fool?

And no, its pretty obvious the Hightowers were in on the shit from the beginning. They and their little puppets bitched an interfered everytime there was a chance for a Dragonmother to marry or to lead.

That is a separate issue (and not true because, you know, they once supported Rhaenyra against Daemon if you remember your stuff).

My point was that the Hightowers never tried to topple the Targaryens or kill the dragons. They wanted to marry into the royal family and become dragonriders themselves. They were after the big price, the only one that matters. And they nearly succeeded.

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On 4/15/2016 at 10:28 AM, Vashon said:

Sinful?

 

Maegor the Great and Awesome was the best King Westeros ever had. He was also one of the few who recognized the threat that the Faith posed. His only mistake was not recognizing that they worked hand in hand with the Maesters as well and that the whole thing was a Hightower plot!

 

Maegor Did Nothing Wrong!

I know you're joking and all but I feel a need to reply by saying, He has literally comitted every crime GRR Martin has ever said was unforgivable... EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.

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On 5.4.2016 at 5:22 AM, jasonothegreat said:

P.S: we might even Say King Daeron II is born not born from a true incest union if he is the offspring of Aemon the Dragonknight, they might have still been siblings but that would also make him illegitimate so take it how you will. 

They were siblings, as shown in the family tree at the end of the book. So, Daeron the Good was okay, despite being born of incest. And I don't know what was so bad about Aenys, he was just kind of passive and weak, but not mad or anything like that.

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