Stannis's role in the death of King Robert Baratheon

[Neds Secret]

What do you think about Stannis decision to depart Kings Landing without telling his brother the King his suspicions regarding the Kings true born children's legitimacy? Do you think it was cowardly of Stannis? Did he let his brother down and endanger him on purpose or accidentally? Do you think this decision and behaviour was out of character for  Stannis, I find it completely unbelievable when I learnt about his character later on in the books, to me it beggars belief. What are your thoughts?  

[kissdbyfire]

I think if anyone has let Robert down, it was Robert himself. He never really ruled, and left all the hard work to others. Since we don't have Stannis' PoV, it's hard to say with certainty what he knew or didn't know. Stannis left for Dragonstone shortly after Robert left for Winterfell, so after Jon Arryn had died. I don't think it's ever stated why he left KL when he did, or whether he planned on telling the truth about the twincest to Robert, but regardless, I don't hold him responsible for Robert's death, not even a little bit. 

[Sullen]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

I think if anyone has let Robert down, it was Robert himself. He never really ruled, and left all the hard work to others. Since we don't have Stannis' PoV, it's hard to say with certainty what he knew or didn't know. Stannis left for Dragonstone shortly after Robert left for Winterfell, so after Jon Arryn had died. I don't think it's ever stated why he left KL when he did, or whether he planned on telling the truth about the twincest to Robert, but regardless, I don't hold him responsible for Robert's death, not even a little bit. 

He left after it was told that Eddard would be the next Hand, while Stannis was hoping this position would be given to him. (As he tells Catelyn in ACoK)

He's absolutely complacent in the death of Robert. He withheld secrets that put his King's life in danger, whether it was out of self-preservation, out of spite, or out of ambition, treason is treason. It's not unbelievable coming from the character either, Stannis is hypocritical, entitled, petty, and generally blind to his own morally dubious acts.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

I thought Stannis fled because he didn't want to get poisoned like Jon Arryn clearly was. Only trouble is he assumed it was the Lannisters who killed Jon.

[Boarsbane]

For a man who claims to always do his duty, it was an awfully convenient time to suddenly start acting more practical. I don't think it's out of character at all though, his bitterness towards both his brothers is a pretty defining character trait for him and there are plenty of excuses for him to justify his cowardly decision to himself. 

[The Drunkard]

 

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, The Drunkard said:

 

Tks, I tried to find that thread and couldn't. 

[Neds Secret]

11 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

I thought Stannis fled because he didn't want to get poisoned like Jon Arryn clearly was. Only trouble is he assumed it was the Lannisters who killed Jon.

What makes you think this?

[Floki of the Ironborn]

1 hour ago, Neds Secret said:

What makes you think this?

I might be misremembering, but I thought that was the reason he had for leaving? Or maybe it's what Ned was speculating at some point in the first book.

[GallowsKnight]

Glad to see my old thread referenced.

2 hours ago, Neds Secret said:

What makes you think this?

You tell the second most powerful man in the Kingdom that the King's heir may be false and he then dies of a summer fever. It's hella suspicious. The only problem being the Lannisters are more obvious than LF and Lysa.

[beatsbymelisandre]

14 hours ago, Sullen said:

He left after it was told that Eddard would be the next Hand, while Stannis was hoping this position would be given to him. (As he tells Catelyn in ACoK).

This hits the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned. He explicitly expresses discontent about being send to Dragonstone while Renly was made lord of Storm's End. Then the decision to make Ned into Hand seems would seem like a slap in the face to Stannis. Especially with how concerned he is with pride and birthright and all that. 

[Neds Secret]

To me Stannis behaviour in leaving Kings landing for dragon stone without telling Robert about the incest is that far out of character that it is almost a plot hole! Stannis is no coward, and he truly is a stickler for the law and he knows of Cersei and Jaimes treason but  is too scared to tell the King to the extent that he sneaks off to dragonstone. Could Stannis possibly be that worried that the King would not believe him that he is willing to let his Brothers life be in mortal danger, rather then risk Roberts displeasure at his accusation, Stannis has more courage and gravitas than that, it does not add up, is there  more to it that I cannot see?

[GallowsKnight]

1 hour ago, beatsbymelisandre said:

This hits the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned. He explicitly expresses discontent about being send to Dragonstone while Renly was made lord of Storm's End. Then the decision to make Ned into Hand seems would seem like a slap in the face to Stannis. Especially with how concerned he is with pride and birthright and all that. 

A lot of people in book suggest he was sulking but that's the trouble with their perception versus reality. A lot of people don't know about the investigation. Not being named Hand means he has even less power to act on the conspiracy.

24 minutes ago, Neds Secret said:

To me Stannis behaviour in leaving Kings landing for dragon stone without telling Robert about the incest is that far out of character that it is almost a plot hole! Stannis is no coward, and he truly is a stickler for the law and he knows of Cersei and Jaimes treason but  is too scared to tell the King to the extent that he sneaks off to dragonstone. Could Stannis possibly be that worried that the King would not believe him that he is willing to let his Brothers life be in mortal danger, rather then risk Roberts displeasure at his accusation, Stannis has more courage and gravitas than that, it does not add up, is there  more to it that I cannot see?

I address this in my link up there. There's a lot of reason Robert might not believe him. Even Jon Arryn was hesitant to immediately approach Robert and he was his de facto father.

[Marcus Agrippa]

I disliked how Martin handled this. This is the writings fualt, not the characters. Stannis didn't do anything that made sense no matter how you turn it. I have argued with his fans in IRL that everything Stannis did right after Jon arynn died didn't make a lot of sense. Even if you make it dark- ie Stannis wants Robert dead, why would he tell Jon?

Let's take a look at the other possibilities- 

Stannis Is afraid- Stannis doesn't ever come off of fearing anything. This was the books official explanation- but it doesn't make sense after the character has done numerous risky things.

Stannis doesn't believe Robert would believe him. Stannis should know Robert hates Cersei and isn't a fan of Joff. That stinks to high heaven, Robert would have at least heard him out or Stannis should have included Renly and the Tyrells. A gamble- but one that would pay-off. 

Stannis isn't sure until after Robert leaves. This doesn't make any sense either. He could easily have sent a raven. He could have gone to Renly. He could have done a lot of other things that were better then what he did.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

Some people think that Stannis was waiting for Robert to die but that's pretty untrue too because it takes 5 months for him to make an actual move after Robert dies. 

In fact, he would've had the letters proclaiming himself king and Robert's kids illegitimate prepared and ready to mail immediately after Robert dies if that were true.

So he was definitely caught off-balance by Robert's death.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

44 minutes ago, Marcus Agrippa said:

I disliked how Martin handled this. This is the writings fualt, not the characters. Stannis didn't do anything that made sense no matter how you turn it. I have argued with his fans in IRL that everything Stannis did right after Jon arynn died didn't make a lot of sense. Even if you make it dark- ie Stannis wants Robert dead, why would he tell Jon?

Let's take a look at the other possibilities- 

Stannis Is afraid- Stannis doesn't ever come off of fearing anything. This was the books official explanation- but it doesn't make sense after the character has done numerous risky things.

Stannis doesn't believe Robert would believe him. Stannis should know Robert hates Cersei and isn't a fan of Joff. That stinks to high heaven, Robert would have at least heard him out or Stannis should have included Renly and the Tyrells. A gamble- but one that would pay-off. 

Stannis isn't sure until after Robert leaves. This doesn't make any sense either. He could easily have sent a raven. He could have gone to Renly. He could have done a lot of other things that were better then what he did.

I guess the idea is that Stannis' insecurities with how Robert feels about him led him to underestimate the value of his words to Robert.

Like Stannis feels internally wrecked that Robert didn't like him. Despite being so blunt and callous with how he says shit he's actually Mister Sensitive.

The idea that Stannis is afraid is brought up by others but isn't necessarily true. Stannis knows that if he dies that the truth dies with him. So it's a good decision to gtfo of KL. He should've at least told someone else though but I suppose there weren't many people he could trust in KL. What he really should've done is send someone like Davos to connect with Ned and pool resources together.

I can kind of explain why he didn't involve Renly and Tyrells though. His excessive resentment for both stopped him from reaching out to them.

[Neds Secret]

1 hour ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

I guess the idea is that Stannis' insecurities with how Robert feels about him led him to underestimate the value of his words to Robert.

Like Stannis feels internally wrecked that Robert didn't like him. Despite being so blunt and callous with how he says shit he's actually Mister Sensitive.

The idea that Stannis is afraid is brought up by others but isn't necessarily true. Stannis knows that if he dies that the truth dies with him. So it's a good decision to gtfo of KL. He should've at least told someone else though but I suppose there weren't many people he could trust in KL. What he really should've done is send someone like Davos to connect with Ned and pool resources together.

I can kind of explain why he didn't involve Renly and Tyrells though. His excessive resentment for both stopped him from reaching out to them.

So it does not matter what way you look at it Stannis behaviour towards Robert regarding his progenys legitimacy is cowardly and pathetic from a character who is anything but cowardly and pathetic to the point of being treasonous in itself. He withheld information that directly endangered his Kings life and basically put his own safety right in front of his older brothers. If my brother had information like this about my life I would expect him to immediately inform me of it and I am not a King and I have no inlaws as cruel and cunning as the Lannisters. When considering this it makes me question if Stannis even deserves to consider himself his brothers heir as  he never displays any guilt shame or remorse for his complicity in King Roberts death. This to me even further denigrates his decisions. I would expect some sort of reflection from him with regards to Roberts death but so far it has been totally absent, has it not?

[Lord_Ravenstone]

15 minutes ago, Neds Secret said:

So it does not matter what way you look at it Stannis behaviour towards Robert regarding his progenys legitimacy is cowardly and pathetic from a character who is anything but cowardly and pathetic to the point of being treasonous in itself. He withheld information that directly endangered his Kings life and basically put his own safety right in front of his older brothers. If my brother had information like this about my life I would expect him to immediately inform me of it and I am not a King and I have no inlaws as cruel and cunning as the Lannisters. When considering this it makes me question if Stannis even deserves to consider himself his brothers heir as  he never displays any guilt shame or remorse for his complicity in King Roberts death. This to me even further denigrates his decisions. I would expect some sort of reflection from him with regards to Roberts death but so far it has been totally absent, has it not?

We'd need a Stannis POV for that. You can't expect Stannis to monologue everything to Davos.

And Jon Arryn who is like a father to Robert also withheld that same information.

Although I'm not sure how that info directly endangered Robert's life. Knowing your brother is a cuckold and his children aren't his isn't an endangerment of his life 

in fact Robert would've lived a lot longer if Ned hadn't gotten involved as Cersei's plan was to kill Stannis and Renly first 

I do agree that that you do have to stretch it a bit which makes me wonder if GRRM would've changed that on a re-write but it does seem to me from what we know of the character that Stannis was more afraid that the info and the initiative to pursue the incest case would die with him if he didn't get out of KL soon

[Lord_Ravenstone]

19 minutes ago, Neds Secret said:

So it does not matter what way you look at it Stannis behaviour towards Robert regarding his progenys legitimacy is cowardly and pathetic from a character who is anything but cowardly and pathetic to the point of being treasonous in itself. He withheld information that directly endangered his Kings life and basically put his own safety right in front of his older brothers. If my brother had information like this about my life I would expect him to immediately inform me of it and I am not a King and I have no inlaws as cruel and cunning as the Lannisters. When considering this it makes me question if Stannis even deserves to consider himself his brothers heir as  he never displays any guilt shame or remorse for his complicity in King Roberts death. This to me even further denigrates his decisions. I would expect some sort of reflection from him with regards to Roberts death but so far it has been totally absent, has it not?

Might've been interesting to get a speech like this but on Robert 

(Man this speech out loud is so goood)

[Sullen]

4 hours ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

We'd need a Stannis POV for that. You can't expect Stannis to monologue everything to Davos.

And Jon Arryn who is like a father to Robert also withheld that same information.

When Jon Arryn thought there was danger in the air, he tried telling Robert. His last words were him trying to tell him about the incest.

Stannis knew there was danger and that the Lannisters were willing to kill to consolidate power, and did nothing for a whole year.

4 hours ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Although I'm not sure how that info directly endangered Robert's life. Knowing your brother is a cuckold and his children aren't his isn't an endangerment of his life 

Cersei and Jaime know that Stannis could spill the beans to Robert, or spill the beans to anyone, really, but can't do anything against him because he is holed up on Dragonstone, safe from any assassination.

The next best thing is to off Robert before Stannis says anything, as to secure the Throne and ensure people see Joffrey as legitimate from the moment he sits his ass on the Throne. It's first grade logic.

4 hours ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

in fact Robert would've lived a lot longer if Ned hadn't gotten involved as Cersei's plan was to kill Stannis and Renly first 

Cersei tried to kill Robert at the Hand's Tourney, way before Eddard ever seriously started investigating.

4 hours ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

I do agree that that you do have to stretch it a bit which makes me wonder if GRRM would've changed that on a re-write but it does seem to me from what we know of the character that Stannis was more afraid that the info and the initiative to pursue the incest case would die with him if he didn't get out of KL soon

If you have to keep stretching to explain a character's actions in both AGoT and ACoK, I think it's fair to say that your twisting the text to fit your own personal image of the character, and not the one the author envisioned.