Stannis's role in the death of King Robert Baratheon

[ForTheNorth]

1 minute ago, Stag_legion said:

Good comparison, though I think stannis is perhaps less aggressive than Putin in many regards. But there are some general similarities.

That's what sucks about Stannis as a character the fact that he has these set of uncompromising beliefs yet we will never see what that would mean for the kingdom . I would love to see his policies in action as an experiment. We don't even get to see him rule Storms end so we really have no point of reference. 

[Marcus Agrippa]

... I am sorry I did this.

2 hours ago, khal drogon said:

It is better than Jon Dany though. 

Anybody is better then Jon. I don't hate jon, he's just the Jim Belushi of characters. Short of Martin pulling something insaning off and keeping it with inline with what he's written, there is nothing more generic then Jon Snow. What Martin did was look at lord of the rings, and found twists that would still make it expectional, and at the same acceptable to the fanasty genre of the 50's-2000. Anyway, random rant over.

 

Judging Stannis's actions implies that it any of these options make sense with in the characters realm, and I am not sure it does.

[Stag_legion]

6 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

He has no idea if his ideas are even possible. When asked how he would dismantle banks he refused to answer.

It is all very well giving populist ideas that beneift everyone but he has no idea if they will work or not.

Well that is because most of America don't know much about him and Hilary's campaign has been pretty gentle about him. If he should somehow win California and New York then the attacks will start.

Most of America don't know about his short story about women enjoying rape, or his comments about how breadlines are good or the fact that he was basically unemployed till he became a career politician in his (iirc) late 30's.  The Republicans will tear him to shreds.

He has been allowed to fly under the radar because no one expects him to win the nomination and the longer he stays in the race the more money and effort Hilary has to spend sowing up the nomination.

You are kidding right?

Clinton and her crew have been attacking Sanders since the beginning and spreading false information about him. And every time her attacks are proven to be lies and false information. If anything one of sanders' mistakes has been that "he" has been too gentle with Hillary.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

8 minutes ago, ForTheNorth said:

That's what sucks about Stannis as a character the fact that he has these set of uncompromising beliefs yet we will never see what that would mean for the kingdom . I would love to see his policies in action as an experiment. We don't even get to see him rule Storms end so we really have no point of reference. 

Honestly from what I gather, Stannis would try to move Westeros from a feudal monarchy to an absolute monarchy. So more reliance on the bureaucracy and less on the feudal lords as well.

which is actually a move in the right direction because absolute monarchies tend to to become constitutional monarchies and republics as well as absolute monarchies just being more efficient government and less prone to fighting in pointlessly minor wars within its own borders against itself

 

[ForTheNorth]

26 minutes ago, Stag_legion said:

You mean beside opposing the Iraq war and panama ordeal, both of which clearly show he made the right judgement. There are also lots of evidence on the economic side that a reduction in wealth polarization promoted by sanders would lead to healthier more active economy because the lower class has more money to spend.

Polls actually show that Sanders would win Republicans in general election by a bigger margin than Clinton. So I don't really agree with that comparison. I think after the Dem nomination Sanders is pretty much guaranteed to win. Sanders is Azor Ahai  FDR come again

Sanders turned Vermont into the model American state and has been fighting in Congress for decades opposing everything the establishment stands for. There is really nothing to attack him on really. Same reason the repubs are having trouble with Trump. Hillary and Co supported Iraq and NAFTA ect Bernie didn't and neither did Trump and in the current political and economic climate in America that's gold. In fact if it weren't for politically uneducated southerners Hillary would be getting blown out of the water 

[Stag_legion]

7 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Honestly from what I gather, Stannis would try to move Westeros from a feudal monarchy to an absolute monarchy. So more reliance on the bureaucracy and less on the feudal lords as well.

which is actually a move in the right direction because absolute monarchies tend to to become constitutional monarchies and republics as well as absolute monarchies just being more efficient government and less prone to fighting in pointlessly minor wars within its own borders against itself

 

I agree,  GRRM clearly hints at this in the books. According to AFFC appendix stannis titles himself the King of Westeros rather than the traditional Targaryen title with all the feudalistic descriptions. Which indicates that stannis sees himself more as a head of a Westerosi state than a king ruling over seven discrete feudalistic realms.

[ForTheNorth]

8 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Honestly from what I gather, Stannis would try to move Westeros from a feudal monarchy to an absolute monarchy. So more reliance on the bureaucracy and less on the feudal lords as well.

which is actually a move in the right direction because absolute monarchies tend to to become constitutional monarchies and republics as well as absolute monarchies just being more efficient government and less prone to fighting in pointlessly minor wars within its own borders against itself

 

Hmm well said. Maybe even create that professional unified army Joffrey talked about in GOT season 1

[Stag_legion]

1 minute ago, ForTheNorth said:

Sanders turned Vermont into the model American state and has been fighting in Congress for decades opposing everything the establishment stands for. There is really nothing to attack him on really. Same reason the repubs are having trouble with Trump. Hillary and Co supported Iraq and NAFTA ect Bernie didn't and neither did Trump and in the current political and economic climate in America that's gold. In fact if it weren't for politically uneducated southerners Hillary would be getting blown out of the water 

Exactly.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

1 minute ago, ForTheNorth said:

Hmm well said. Maybe even create that standing unified army Joffrey talked about in GOT season 1

Yep. 

The problem is that Stannis isn't popular and he has no base from where he could draw enough power to challenge the nobility.

The best move that Stannis could make is divorce Seylse and marry Marge if Tommen manages to die.

And maybe get rid of R'hllor to make him tolerable or claim that his divine right to rule comes from R'hllor.

[Neds Secret]

7 hours ago, Stag_legion said:

Stannis doesn't really have a good analogy in current politics. Stannis is both revolutionary and conservative in different aspects, and the fact that he promotes melisandre's religion while not really believing in it also makes it hard to categorize him.

He only promotes Melisandres religion to the extent that it can benefit and aid him, if it stops helping he will dismiss it which makes him a pragmatist!

[Stag_legion]

22 minutes ago, Neds Secret said:

He only promotes Melisandres religion to the extent that it can benefit and aid him, if it stops helping he will dismiss it which makes him a pragmatist!

Yes and that is one of the main differences between stannis and Ned stark (although there are others), Stannis is willing to compromise his values for practicality from time to time.

[The Drunkard]

16 hours ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Yep. 

The problem is that Stannis isn't popular and he has no base from where he could draw enough power to challenge the nobility.

At the moment. He's better than he was (his courting of the clansmen is something ACOK-Stannis never would have done) and seems to have found his niche embodying the Protector of the Realm part of kingship. I don't see it happening, but if the Others disappeared and he could focus on the throne, the Iron Bank loan could be used to facilitate some radical changes. With their wealth he wouldn't be totally reliant on the feudal system.

17 hours ago, ForTheNorth said:

That's why I chose Putin.

I don't see this at all. Stannis isn't an imperialist, he seems utterly uninterested in the world outside westeros. And, while not some devout follower, he clearly has some belief in R'hllor and the red religion - he wrestles with the idea of being R'hllor's chosen throughout ASOS and by the end has seemingly accepted it. Putin didn't remove the oligarchy or the associated corruption, and he's not the least bit just.

[Marcus Agrippa]

I don't think people really understand Putin in the west. To understand the type of man he is- you have to look at KGB. I am not going to deny the man sucks, but he has no accurate interpretation in ASOIAF. Stannis has no real match in politics today. You might find some one on the far left or right that has some comparability to Stannis, but they lack the self loathing nature Stannis has and the insaning attachment to justice. I am not sure if I would elect Stannis Baratheon over all the others, but he would be a second behind robb stark.

[ForTheNorth]

2 hours ago, The Drunkard said:

At the moment. He's better than he was (his courting of the clansmen is something ACOK-Stannis never would have done) and seems to have found his niche embodying the Protector of the Realm part of kingship. I don't see it happening, but if the Others disappeared and he could focus on the throne, the Iron Bank loan could be used to facilitate some radical changes. With their wealth he wouldn't be totally reliant on the feudal system.

I don't see this at all. Stannis isn't an imperialist, he seems utterly uninterested in the world outside westeros. And, while not some devout follower, he clearly has some belief in R'hllor and the red religion - he wrestles with the idea of being R'hllor's chosen throughout ASOS and by the end has seemingly accepted it. Putin didn't remove the oligarchy or the associated corruption, and he's not the least bit just.

Obviously it stretching because their is no one like Stannis the one true king but I will try to argue my point .

 

Putin sees Ukraine, Georgia, Belarus, Chechnya, Estonia eat as belonging to the Empire the same way Stannis sees the North and all belonging to his Kingdom, regardless of the wishes of the natives. That's imperialism. 

I don't think Stannis is a red god follower if he was he'd be burning people left an right and that's actually being witness to magic. Obviously I'm stretching it in this instance but both are using religion to further their goals without being true believers.

And Putin did take down the oligarchs http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/12/11/opinion/masha-gessen-the-myth-of-the-russian-oligarchs.html?referer=

He consolidated power just like Stannis was planning to do. 

Finally the Russians see him as just, we don't because we are used to democracy, rule of law and freedom of the press. Russia is the world's longest lasting dictatorship, so to them and to the disaffected eastern Ukrainians and south ossetian Georgians he is just. Same way we view Stannis as a good guy but most westerosi see him as a horrible option

[The Drunkard]

7 hours ago, ForTheNorth said:

Putin sees Ukraine, Georgia, Belarus, Chechnya, Estonia eat as belonging to the Empire the same way Stannis sees the North and all belonging to his Kingdom, regardless of the wishes of the natives. That's imperialism. 

That's imperialism defined so loosely as to lose the meaning of the word. Putin wants Russia to expand over its neighbours, Stannis wants westeros to remain united.

I don't think Stannis is a red god follower if he was he'd be burning people left an right and that's actually being witness to magic. Obviously I'm stretching it in this instance but both are using religion to further their goals without being true believers.

He's not a zealot or a fanatic - he's never going to worship any god for the reasons given in ACOK - but that doesn't mean he doesn't believe.

Stannis pointed north. "There is where I'll find the foe that I was born to fight."

"I will not hold Dragonstone for very much longer, I fear, but perhaps the Lord of Light shall grant us enough frozen fire to arm ourselves against these creatures, before the castle falls."

"But you are the weapon the Lord has given me. I have found you here, as you found the cache of dragonglass beneath the Fist, and I mean to make use of you. Even Azor Ahai did not win his war alone."

And Putin did take down the oligarchs 

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/12/11/opinion/masha-gessen-the-myth-of-the-russian-oligarchs.html?referer=

He consolidated power just like Stannis was planning to do.

Article says that their political influence is diminished but they've been entrenched in the new regime, that they're able to buy their way into office, and that the "essential characteristic" of Putin's rule is "all-encompassing corruption".

Finally the Russians see him as just, we don't because we are used to democracy, rule of law and freedom of the press. Russia is the world's longest lasting dictatorship, so to them and to the disaffected eastern Ukrainians and south ossetian Georgians he is just. Same way we view Stannis as a good guy but most westerosi see him as a horrible option

Doesn't matter how they see him. Putin doesn't have a just bone in his body. The article you quoted, even, mentions how corrupt his regime is, it's just that the corruption benefits him.

Anyway, I'm sure if you asked most Putin supporters about the qualities they most admire in him, 'just leadership' wouldn't be among them.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

4 hours ago, The Drunkard said:

That's imperialism defined so loosely as to lose the meaning of the word. Putin wants Russia to expand over its neighbours, Stannis wants westeros to remain united.

 

 

He's not a zealot or a fanatic - he's never going to worship any god for the reasons given in ACOK - but that doesn't mean he doesn't believe.

Stannis pointed north. "There is where I'll find the foe that I was born to fight."

"I will not hold Dragonstone for very much longer, I fear, but perhaps the Lord of Light shall grant us enough frozen fire to arm ourselves against these creatures, before the castle falls."

"But you are the weapon the Lord has given me. I have found you here, as you found the cache of dragonglass beneath the Fist, and I mean to make use of you. Even Azor Ahai did not win his war alone."

 

 

That's consistent with what Mel says. Stannis may believe in the Lord of Light but the only gods he truly worships are honor and duty.

 

[Neds Secret]

On 6 April 2016 at 6:56 AM, Lord_Ravenstone said:

I mean they're both pretty similar in many respects but Daenerys' sex life would suffer tremendously 

Could you just imagine Stannis proposing or even "courting" Dany, it would be so awkward to watch I feel. Actually I would have loved to have seen the small council meetings and the interplay between Stannis and LF, or Stannis and Varys, or Stannis and Pycelle, I mean Stannis would see right through them and I do not imagine how he would suffer his way through these meetings without exploding, this is almost a plot hole!

[Lord_Ravenstone]

15 hours ago, Neds Secret said:

Could you just imagine Stannis proposing or even "courting" Dany, it would be so awkward to watch I feel. Actually I would have loved to have seen the small council meetings and the interplay between Stannis and LF, or Stannis and Varys, or Stannis and Pycelle, I mean Stannis would see right through them and I do not imagine how he would suffer his way through these meetings without exploding, this is almost a plot hole!

He probably did explode multiple times a day just being in the same castle as them

 Renly and LF probably teased the fuck out of Stannis pissing him off

 Varys would try to sweet-talk him pissing him off

Pycelle would continue being incompetent pissing him off

robert would continue not being there pissing him off

Jon Arryn would be the only guy that he could reasonably actually talk to in a tone that wasn't "one day I'm going cut your head off, asshole"

[The Fresh PtwP]

This has always interested me, I do not think Stannis leaving Robert is a plot hole...rather it's an indication of how much character development Stannis has gone through. With the likes of Jon, Dany, Tyrion and Jaime one can easily forget that AGoT-Stannis and DoD-Stannis are two very different people. 

In the early books he IS that petty, to slink off to DS leaving Robert to the Lannisters. He IS that jaded to attack Renly at SE instead of marching on KL. Currently (Post Blackwater), with Davos' increased influence, I don't think he makes either of those plays but back then it didn't seem out of character at all.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Stannis appears to resent his brothers and not getting his due and what he believes he deserves.

However, he and Jon Arryn did appear before Robert about corruption, with Robert opposing them and taking Littlefinger's advise in favor of Janos Slynt. Then Arryn dies and worse Robert doesn't pick him as hand which means he isn't more willing to listen to him. So, it does seem Stannis hedges his bets and gathers power at Dragonstone, rather than risk to die in the capital.

Then there is the issue of procrastination. Even when it comes to his own interests of declaring himself king and revealing the incest to the realm faster than later, Stannis procrastinates at his, and Westeros expense. It is against the interests of Westeros because by losing the initiative he allows more claimants to come from. This procrastination by Stannis could mean that Stannis did not necessarilly expect Robert to die so soon, Stannis is just too slow to come with effective plans.

Then there is Stannis often commenting about duty to the realm, in combination with how he helped rule when Robert was king along with Jon Arryn, or brought corruption to Robert, or investigated along with Arryn, or later his actions in the wall.

My position is that it is a combination of the above, Stannis did hold resentment over his brothers which influenced his actions, however he also wanted to help, but was discouraged by Robert's action and inaction, and not picking him as hand. He could have done more, but his inability to act soon enough is also partly explained by his inability to seize the initiative in general, even after Robert's death. It isn't necessarily all ulterior motive.

Ultimately, Stannis bigger error is less the fact that he didn't save Robert, but that he didn't save the realm, due to his inactivity, and slowness. Additionally, there was room for cooperation with other players while the iron was hot, such as Ned and Renly. Perhaps Robert was a lost case, but Stannis and his troops could have done more. Even after Robert's death, more swift action, and better collaboration with others might had been more decisive.