Let's Find The Swords

[Curled Finger]

11 minutes ago, Dire Lady said:

It was their most recent episode, Ep24 Part2- Only Cat. 

That's why I don't remember it I haven't heard it yet.  Thanks for the tip.  It's good to know there is a new one to lis ten to.  Next topic I'm asking how many readers have a,Radio Westeros tshirts.  They do such a good job.

[Dire Lady]

34 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

That's why I don't remember it I haven't heard it yet.  Thanks for the tip.  It's good to know there is a new one to lis ten to.  Next topic I'm asking how many readers have a,Radio Westeros tshirts.  They do such a good job.

I don't have a t-shirt, but I love Radio Westeros and listen to every episode. 

 WW being smuggled out of KL in the tapestries so it can be given to Sansa as part of her inheritance after she appears with her auburn hair and maiden's cloak emblazoned with a grey dire wolf on the back, brillant! I even thinks it's possible she'll end up doling out some Stark justice with it. 

[Curled Finger]

Ok lots of Blackfyre & DS.  A couple interesting possibilities for WW.  No ideas for Truth or Orphan-Maker?  One of the coolest ideas I ever heard for a sword was regarding Truth.  

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

I think BR still has Dark Sis and gives it to Bran who gives it to Meera (since Bran himself can't really use it.) 

Widow's Wail, IMO, will pass to Arya at some point. If it comes to her from Sansa after Sansa uses it to behead LF (or she may give it to a headsman, Lords of Winterfell aren't supposed to but it says nothing about ladies), all the better. 

Both scenarios--Bran giving Meera DS and Sansa giving Arya WW--would follow a well trodden pattern in the books of Maid figures gifting special swords to Warrior figures.

 

No idea where WW is right now but I do like the tapestry theory.

[Sword_in_the_darkness]

I really like the Littlefinger-Widows Wail theory, but I can't see Sansa doing a beheading... I think it's more likely that the sword is with Loras.

Regarding Blackfyre - I think JonCon got the sword from Illyrio with his connection to the GC (Tyrion adwd I) and will give it to fAegon.

I also belive that BR took DS with him to the wall and then into the cave. According to the Wiki DS is a longsword but it may be a bit smaller than a "normal" longsword as it was forged for Visenya. Longclaw is a bastard sword and was according to Mormont 400 years in posession of his house. That's why I don't buy the Langclaw=DS theories.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Also:

BR - Bran - Meera

LF - Sansa - Arya

Sketchy "Father" figure - Maid - Warrior

[Modesty Lannister]

The only idea about the missing swords I can offer concerns the Vigilance. 

It originally belonged to the House Hightower and the last one to wield it was Ormund Hightower who was Lord of the Hightower during the Dance of Dragons.

Vigilance was lost during the the battle of Tumbleton where Winter Wolves, led by lord Roderick Dustin, clashed with Ormund's host. Lord Dustin killed both Ormund and his cousin Bryndon Hightower before succumbing to his wounds. So, Vigilance may be in House Dustin. 

I could also speculate that the Blackfyre sword ended in the hands of Bittersteel since he was the one who took Deamon's children into exile after his demise in the rebellion. Also, he was a Bracken and knowing about a long-term feud between the Brackens and the Blackwoods, his deep hatred of Bloodraven who was in possession of a Valyrian steel sword Dark Sister at the time, it would provide Bittersteel with ample motive to retain Blackfyre sword. If that is the case, Blackfyre is either in House Bracken, with Bloodraven who defeated Bittersteel in the 3rd Blackfyre Rebellion and captured him or within the ranks of Golden Company. Since it is a Valyrian steel sword it stands to reason that the current leader Harry Strickland has it.

[Curled Finger]

12 hours ago, Seams said:

Maybe others have already seen and discussed this, but I've only recently picked up on a line of clues that Theon Greyjoy IS the sword Ice. (That's one way to be Ironborn, isn't it?) And the sword Ice, in turn, may also be a metaphor for The Wall. So clues about the future of Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail may be found in Theon's story line. Unfortunately, if Theon was really castrated, I fear that Widow's Wail may be lost. (Or it may turn up at Pyke - is that where Asha and Balon received the box from Ramsay?)

Another theory I'm still working out is that possibly Theon has been transformed from Ice into Oathkeeper, and Big Walder, the smaller of Catelyn's two wards, is Widow's Wail. (This began with the inspiration one day that "wards" and "swords" are linked in one of GRRM's clever uses of wordplay.) So follow Big Walder to find either a symbolic or actual location of Widow's Wail.

I really like the theory with Widow's Wail hidden in the tapestries, and Sansa using it in the future. That fits with some clues about Sansa in ASoS, so I hope the theory is correct. Merillion was going to write a song for Sansa called something like "Roadside Rose," I believe, and Widow's Wail is the name of a flower. There is also a turning point just before Sansa builds her snow castle at the Eyrie when she takes on a Catelyn-like role, which would fit with the "wards and swords" theory - Sansa could be symbolically taking on Catelyn's ward and will therefore meet up with Big Walder and/or Widow's Wail at some point. (On the other hand, Harry the Heir is a ward of Lady Anya Waynwood. So Sansa could be picking up an unknown Arryn or Waynwood sword at some point. We do see Sansa in bed with Sweet Robin toward the end of ADwD.)

If the logical idea that Tommen would receive Widow's Wail is correct, then the Maiden vs. anti-Maiden symbolism of Sansa and Margaery probably comes into play. Margaery certainly is a widow. She and Sansa are both married but both are supposedly virgins. So their husbands' swords have never been used, in the symbolic sense. (Joffrey's three swords certainly were not used.) I would love to read a scene where Sansa and Margaery fight for the possession of the sword. I wonder what that would look like? Maybe this will be the duel over who becomes queen of the Seven Kingdoms?

I know you left Brightroar out of your list on purpose, but I would not be at all surprised if Tyrion pulls it out of a pile of armor some day in Essos, in the manner of King Arthur pulling Excalibur out of a stone. Maybe Tyrion and Tommen will have a sword duel on the day when each man finally sleeps with his wife. A lot of the clues about Tyrion's relationship with his uncle Gerion, Tyrion traveling, Tyrion finally taking the advice he gave Jon Snow ( "Never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you."), Tyrion seeking Tysha, becoming a sell sword - all seem to be leading up to him being the heir of the Lannister sword and being a king.

Similar to the Theon = Ice theory, I think Tormund Giantsbane may BE the sword Longclaw and there is also some link between him and The Wall. Jon allowing the wildlings to come south of The Wall may have been foreshadowed by the superficial transformation of Longclaw from a bear to a direwolf. (The marriage of Alys Karstark and Sigorn, Magnar of Thenn also figures into this motif.) The tall tale (or should I say, shaggy dog story?) about Tormund having half of his member cut off but still having the largest endowment of any man may tell us something about the future of The Wall and/or about Longclaw.

Anyone else know of other wards in the books? This "wards and swords" notion is still coming together, and I'd love to have more examples to work out.

You put a lot into that, Seams, and I appreciate it.   Lots of folks like to make the swords symbolic.   In that there are several swords within the story I don't think they are symbolic of anything.   They are tangible and they are magic, written into the story for some purpose.   I think the real importance of Ice (II) was the forging of the other 2 new VS swords, making the number 12 again.  With the tiniest bit of information available regarding Widow's Wail, I'm thinking it's got to be close to the configuration of DS, so 2 small women could probably fight over it no problem.   Brightroar, on the other hand, is a great sword. That means it's probably bigger than Sansa or Marg, but definitely bigger than Tyrion.   I have my own pet irony that Euron should bust out with it.    He seems to have everything else, so why not?  Seriously though, I really do think Lamentation and Brightroar are completely and totally gone, never to be seen again in Westeros.   It's all about the math for me on that score and I believe that was Ice II's purpose.   Nonetheless, no one seems to know where Truth is.   If it never came to Westeros it could still be in Lys or the surrounding area. I don't know what type of sword it is, but if it isn't a great sword then Tyrion can have it.   If he can lift it.   Still, I do like the symbolism in that as you suggest.   As to Tormund...I keep a spreadsheet of the little facts I find about the swords.   And yes, I do have a whole page dedicated to lining the swords up with potential wielders and Tormund is my favorite for Longclaw, even if a man of his strength really would be better suited to a different type of weapon.    Longclaw is a bastard sword, which really refers to its configuration, pommel and blade.   Still, you can't help but root for some hapless bastard to wield it.   See what you did!   I wasn't going to venture into who should wield the swords so forget I said that!   The point was the description of the sword rather than its name being the important factor.   That was actually a lot of fun, thanks for your thoughts, Seams.  

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

I think BR still has Dark Sis and gives it to Bran who gives it to Meera (since Bran himself can't really use it.) 

Widow's Wail, IMO, will pass to Arya at some point. If it comes to her from Sansa after Sansa uses it to behead LF (or she may give it to a headsman, Lords of Winterfell aren't supposed to but it says nothing about ladies), all the better. 

Both scenarios--Bran giving Meera DS and Sansa giving Arya WW--would follow a well trodden pattern in the books of Maid figures gifting special swords to Warrior figures.

 

No idea where WW is right now but I do like the tapestry theory.

Howdy Blind Beth, good to see you.   Thanks for your thoughts on what you see happening with these swords.   But we've got to find them 1st.   I'm thinking DS really is with or near BR.   That's a 99% convinced because nothing is sure in the story.   Reading your comment, I take it you also appreciate the possibility it may have been smuggled out in the tapestries.   There is a very famous sword right there in the Vale.  WW being there could act as a replacement in that area since Lamentation isn't likely to resurface.   There were 2 VS swords in the Vale so perhaps it is as important to get the swords where they need to begin their collective journey from as well as to the people they need to get to.   That's certainly something to consider.  

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, Sword_in_the_darkness said:

I really like the Littlefinger-Widows Wail theory, but I can't see Sansa doing a beheading... I think it's more likely that the sword is with Loras.

Regarding Blackfyre - I think JonCon got the sword from Illyrio with his connection to the GC (Tyrion adwd I) and will give it to fAegon.

I also belive that BR took DS with him to the wall and then into the cave. According to the Wiki DS is a longsword but it may be a bit smaller than a "normal" longsword as it was forged for Visenya. Longclaw is a bastard sword and was according to Mormont 400 years in posession of his house. That's why I don't buy the Langclaw=DS theories.

Yah, I can't see Sansa doing it either.   Your Blackfyre location is the most popular and it makes a lot of sense.    Here is another I am 99% convinced of.  DS is definitely smaller and I'm thinking WW may be close to her size so we don't need a big brute to wield it.   Maybe perfect for a woman or child?   I think this is the 1st time I've seen Longclaw = DS--everything I've read Longclaw = Ice!   It's curious that we have so much history on Longclaw, DS, OK, BF & LF and so precious little for the other swords.    I like the way you think, taking size into consideration.  You get thinking about Orphan-Maker!  Thanks so much for your thoughts here, Sword! 

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, Modesty Lannister said:

The only idea about the missing swords I can offer concerns the Vigilance. 

It originally belonged to the House Hightower and the last one to wield it was Ormund Hightower who was Lord of the Hightower during the Dance of Dragons.

Vigilance was lost during the the battle of Tumbleton where Winter Wolves, led by lord Roderick Dustin, clashed with Ormund's host. Lord Dustin killed both Ormund and his cousin Bryndon Hightower before succumbing to his wounds. So, Vigilance may be in House Dustin. 

I could also speculate that the Blackfyre sword ended in the hands of Bittersteel since he was the one who took Deamon's children into exile after his demise in the rebellion. Also, he was a Bracken and knowing about a long-term feud between the Brackens and the Blackwoods, his deep hatred of Bloodraven who was in possession of a Valyrian steel sword Dark Sister at the time, it would provide Bittersteel with ample motive to retain Blackfyre sword. If that is the case, Blackfyre is either in House Bracken, with Bloodraven who defeated Bittersteel in the 3rd Blackfyre Rebellion and captured him or within the ranks of Golden Company. Since it is a Valyrian steel sword it stands to reason that the current leader Harry Strickland has it.

Modesty, WOW!   I've been looking everywhere for even a mention.   Is this from TPATQ?  (I listen to the books, so I don't necessarily get everything the 1st or even 3rd time)  Another sword lost in Tumbleton?   What could it mean if the descendants of the original Barrows Kings have this sword???  This is the best intel I've been given in 6 months.   All I have managed to come up with is that Vigilance is the sword that was used to knight Prince Daeron.    Can you direct me to this information?   Is there a description of the sword?  

I really really enjoyed your detail on Bittersteel.   I think it's all important for determining the futures of the swords and maybe even in finding them.   I think in the OP I wrote a little blurb about what is commonly believed to have happened to make BF lost.  But this is really good stuff!  Thank you so much for sharing this valuable information.   

[1000th Lord Commander]

23 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Oath Keeper is with Brienne.   Jamie sees it when he leaves with her in his last chapter. 

Vigilance is a Hightower sword.   I've found no mention of it being seen anywhere.

Widow's Wail was last seen with Joffrey.   Was it buried with him or put away for Tommen?   Something else?

Orphan-Maker hasn't been seen since Bold Jon Roxton killed Hugh Hammer in the Battle at Tumbleton II. Bold Jon was promptly killed by 10 unidentified men.

Dark Sister was last seen in the possession of Bloodraven before his imprisonment.   Did he take it to the Wall? Something else?

Creepy Lyn Corbary has Lady Forlorn.

Randyll Tarly owns Heartsbane.

Blackfyre was last seen being taken by Bittersteel (into exile) after the battle at Redgrass Field.   Is it with a Blackfyre?   The Golden Company?  Something else?

Longclaw was last seen with Jon Snow. 

Nightfall is in the possession of Ser Harras Harlaw.

Red Rain is in the possession of House Drumm.

Truth is a Lysenni sword listed as a Westerosi sword.   It belonged to House Rogare of Lys.  Was it brought to Westeros as perhaps a part of Larra Rogare's dowry upon her marriage to King Viserys?  

Everyone should have an idea about Blackfyre and Dark Sister by now.   I never get tired of sword theory.   I have a few ideas where some of the missing swords could be or may come into play.  I've read some very good ideas regarding the whereabouts of some swords and even better ideas regarding how  all the swords will come back into play.   There is a small group of geeks here who really enjoy the swords and see the potential in their importance as the story unwinds.  Orphan-Maker had a back blade, Nightfall has a moonstone pommel--do these things matter?   Have we actually got a good description of Widow's Wail?   Jorah will have Longclaw and/or Dawn is Lightbringer are not the reply I'm hoping to elicit.   This topic is for the purpose of finding the missing swords.   I left Lamentation and Brightroar off the list entirely because I think they really are "lost" or destroyed--not in Westeros to be found.    In that we know where at least half of these swords are and see where they could be headed it becomes increasingly important to locate Vigilance (yawn, I'm sure it's with the Hightowers, love to hear it if you have better!), Truth, Widow's Wail, Dark Sister, Blackfyre and Orphan-Maker.  I like the idea that Gendry will be able to identify one of them.   We can do a "who will wield" thread down the road.  Bring on those bright detective's minds...

We know where Oath Keeper is

We haven't seen much of the Hightowers in the present day, it's entirely possible that it survived the Dance and is sitting in a chamber in the tower.

Valyrian swords are too valuable to be buried with someone. While I like the theory that LF has it, I would say its in KL, locked away.

Orphan maker is unknown. It could have been recovered by the Roxtons, stolen by one of the killers, melted into the ground by Seasmokes dragonfire. No idea

Dark Sister is a interesting one. Despite Longclaw, I see no reason as to why Bloodraven would have been allowed to take it with him to the Wall, particularly after the loss of Blackfyre. The Targaryans would have held onto thier last blade tightly, and yet we see no evidence of it being used afterwards.

Blackfyre could have been recovered by the Targs? in the passage on the Third Blackfyre rebellion, Heagon I is slain after he 'gives up his sword'. Was he wielding Blackfyre at the time? If so, it shares a fate with Dark Sister

Truth in Westeros is an interesting Theory, but I see no evidence in what we know of the family. Larra's younger brother wields Truth, and he leads a army against Lys at one point. Larra also goes back to Lys, after her children are born. However, Aegon, Larra's eldest son, does go on a diplomatic mission to Braavos in 161 AC, while Larra is dead by this point, its possible he could have met up with his uncle then. The other option, is that Larra's uncle was Prince consort to Dorne, and Truth could have ended up in thier hands. Still, both of these are quite a stretch.

 

[Ygrain]

8 hours ago, Dire Lady said:

I don't have a t-shirt, but I love Radio Westeros and listen to every episode. 

 WW being smuggled out of KL in the tapestries so it can be given to Sansa as part of her inheritance after she appears with her auburn hair and maiden's cloak emblazoned with a grey dire wolf on the back, brillant! I even thinks it's possible she'll end up doling out some Stark justice with it. 

Me too :-)

Using the tapestries as a pretext for smuggling something out makes a lot of sense - why did LF want those tapestries, only to gift them to Royce? Doesn't make much sense, does it. And Ned Stark's reforged sword belongs with Ned Stark's offspring. 

[Belgarad]

10 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I have wracked my head over DS for a long time.  She has an illustrious history.  Would a convicted criminal be permitted to take a family heirloom of that significance to the Wall?  I'm thinking yes, particularly when said criminal ranked so highly in the sitting regime.  I have this half baked idea that once BR brought the sword to the wall it became a Wall possession, making it a lot easier for me to reconcile Longclaw.  I am sure we will see both swords in TWOW.

I believe that BR glamoured DS, much like how Mel glamoured Stannis' version of Lightbringer.  That way it could pass as an ordinary sword that he took with him to the wall.  Subsequently he carried it through all his days on the wall until his final ranging where he was "lost" and he still has it in the cave.

As for who will wield it, I believe it will be Hodor to use it when being warged by Bran.

[Modesty Lannister]

6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Modesty, WOW!   I've been looking everywhere for even a mention.   Is this from TPATQ?  (I listen to the books, so I don't necessarily get everything the 1st or even 3rd time)  Another sword lost in Tumbleton?   What could it mean if the descendants of the original Barrows Kings have this sword???  This is the best intel I've been given in 6 months.   All I have managed to come up with is that Vigilance is the sword that was used to knight Prince Daeron.    Can you direct me to this information?   Is there a description of the sword?  

I really really enjoyed your detail on Bittersteel.   I think it's all important for determining the futures of the swords and maybe even in finding them.   I think in the OP I wrote a little blurb about what is commonly believed to have happened to make BF lost.  But this is really good stuff!  Thank you so much for sharing this valuable information.   

Thank you, Curled Finger. Yes, the most elaborate information comes from TWOIAF, but there are bits in The Princess and the Queen as well.

Quote

FIRST BATTLE OF TUMBLETON, where the Two Betrayers (dragonriders Ulf the White and Hugh Hammer) turned their cloaks, and the remaining Winter Wolves (the grizzled Northmen who followed Lord Dustin to war) cut their way through ten times their number. This resulted in the deaths of Lord Ormund Hightower, who led the forces of the greens, and his famous cousin Ser Brynden at the hands of Lord Roderick Dustin, who was also slain. The savage sack of Tumbleton followed. TWOIAF

If the Vigilance is in the possession of the Dustins, it would explain Ned Stark's behaviour during Robert's rebellion. First of all, it would explain why he would take lord Dustin to the Tower of Joy with him. We have no record of Ned Stark being friends with lord Dustin at all. So, why would he take him to such an important mission? Why would he risk that House Dustin learns details of Lyanna's fate firsthand and possibly spread rumours throughout the north later? Furthermore, lord Dustin's wife was Barbrey Dustin who was prior to that marriage a mistress of Ned's brother Brandon Stark. So, I bet lord Dustin was not a close mate with Ned. Ned grew up in the Vale. Lord Dustin grew up with Brandon Stark who was fostered in Borrowton. Brandon took Barbrey's virginity and that was a woman Dustin would later marry. Two guys chasing after the same girl, one being the heir to the Lord Paramount of the North and the other being his liege, but aware of the glorious past of his house. I bet there was much rivalry there. But, back to the ToJ. If lord Dustin had Vigilance, it would explain why Ned needed him for this mission. An additional Valyrian steel sword would help a great deal. But, what happened at the ToJ? Lord Dustin perished and all lady Dustin got from Ned was a red stallion she gave to her husband before leaving south. No wonder lady Dustin is furious with Ned if Vigilance is missing. And I suspect she accuses Ned of stealing it after lord Dustin's death. I also suspect that was the true reason why she went to the crypts of Winterfell. She was especially looking at the swords that sat next to statues of Kings in the North. She was the one to spot the missing swords. So, she was concentrating on the swords. I suspect she expected to find Vigilance there and when she didn't, she never went back down there again. A possibility that she sees Ned Stark as the person who took Vigilance explains her grudge against him. Otherwise she has no motive. Why would she hate the man who went to war to avenge her beloved Brandon? But, now, she is plotting to steel Ned's bones. Maybe she wants to trade these bones for Vigilance?

Quote

“Lord Dustin and I had not been married half a year when Robert rose and Ned Stark called his banners. I begged my husband not to go. He had kin he might have sent in his stead. An uncle famed for his prowess with an axe, a great-uncle who had fought in the War of the Ninepenny Kings. But he was a man and full of pride, nothing would serve but that he lead the Barrowton levies himself. I gave him a horse the day he set out, a red stallion with a fiery mane, the pride of my lord father’s herds. My lord swore that he would ride him home when the war was done.

“Ned Stark returned the horse to me on his way back home to Winterfell. He told me that my lord had died an honorable death, that his body had been laid to rest beneath the red mountains of Dorne. He brought his sister’s bones back north, though, and there she rests ... but I promise you, Lord Eddard’s bones will never rest beside hers. I mean to feed them to my dogs.”

Theon did not understand. “His ... his bones ... ?”

Her lips twisted. It was an ugly smile, a smile that reminded him of Ramsay’s. “Catelyn Tully dispatched Lord Eddard’s bones north before the Red Wedding, but your iron uncle seized Moat Cailin and closed the way. I have been watching ever since. Should those bones ever emerge from the swamps, they will get no farther than Barrowton.” She threw one last lingering look at the likeness of Eddard Stark. “We are done here.” , ADWD, The Tuncloak

 

[Curled Finger]

Thanks for the new posts, I will reply tonight.   After Modesty Lannister got me all excited about Vigilance I went on a little search of my own and found the most curious thing.   I took to asearchoiceandfire as well as the wiki and found mention of a Ser Warrick Wheatly taking a wing off a dragon in the pit with a Valyrian steel sword.    The only VS I know of at the storming of the dragon pit is Lamentation!  We are told Lamentation was destroyed in the pit and a search for  Ser Warrick Wheatly returned ZERO results in the wiki.    Curiouser and curiouser.   

Could it be that Warrick Wheatly survived and had perhaps Vigilance or Orphanmaker?    

[Modesty Lannister]

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Thanks for the new posts, I will reply tonight.   After Modesty Lannister got me all excited about Vigilance I went on a little search of my own and found the most curious thing.   I took to asearchoiceandfire as well as the wiki and found mention of a Ser Warrick Wheatly taking a wing off a dragon in the pit with a Valyrian steel sword.    The only VS I know of at the storming of the dragon pit is Lamentation!  We are told Lamentation was destroyed in the pit and a search for  Ser Warrick Wheatly returned ZERO results in the wiki.    Curiouser and curiouser.   

Could it be that Warrick Wheatly survived and had perhaps Vigilance or Orphanmaker?    

That's a very exciting finding. I will also look into it. Great thread Curled Finger!

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

On April 6, 2016 at 8:08 AM, RedShirt47 said:

I quite like the theory I read on here some time ago that Tommen gifted Widow's Wail to Loras when he embarks on his assault of Dragonstone.
In a Cersei POV she sees Tommen giving Loras a bejewelled sword to thank him for training him. Tommen is likely too young to appreciate the true value of a Valyrian Steel sword and Cersei would be unlikely to recognise one.
It's possible Tommen could have had a nice Castle Forged sword made for Loras but it is also possible he just saw Widow's Wail lying around and decided it would be a good gift.

I thought this as I was reading since she specifically mentions the sword's beauty (paraphrasing here) but I've seen other people on the forum mention it too. I think it's very possible. 

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Howdy Blind Beth, good to see you.   Thanks for your thoughts on what you see happening with these swords.   But we've got to find them 1st.   I'm thinking DS really is with or near BR.   That's a 99% convinced because nothing is sure in the story.   Reading your comment, I take it you also appreciate the possibility it may have been smuggled out in the tapestries.   There is a very famous sword right there in the Vale.  WW being there could act as a replacement in that area since Lamentation isn't likely to resurface.   There were 2 VS swords in the Vale so perhaps it is as important to get the swords where they need to begin their collective journey from as well as to the people they need to get to.   That's certainly something to consider.  

Ha, no problem. Unfortunately I don't have a lot of ideas on where swords are now. I started following the thread because I have a lot more questions than answers in this regard.

My thinking before reading the "WW in the Vale" theory was that WW is still in the Red Keep somewhere, and that Arya would retrieve it at some point in a callback to her Red Keep cat-ninja skills learned in Book 1.

An alternate theory of mine (still starting with WW in the Red Keep) is that Cercei and Tommen flee to Casterly Rock at some point, and Tommen takes his sword with him. I think Cercei and Tyrion having a showdown over ownership of CR is highly likely. So if Tyrion wins and Tommen is killed in the conflict, Tyrion might take WW. I think there's symbolism to support that, too, but it's kind of involved.

The idea of Tommen giving WW to Loras is interesting, too, but I'm not sure where the story would go from there. Plus it's a smaller sword so I'm not sure if Loras would take it into battle with him--would the VS-ness outweigh the shorter reach in his mind?

 

I'm not sure about WW as a replacement for Lamentation. The names are rather similar. But I tend to think WW's fate will be with either a Stark or a Lannister.

On the other hand, the more general idea that having two VS swords in the Vale is important--like one for each of two potential factions?--is quite intriguing. Lamentation and Lady Forlorn belonging to Royce and Corbray, who were historical enemies before Arryn's came to dominate, could support that idea.

ETA: And Littlefinger, who is well aware of the importance of class and class markers, does seem like a likely person to try and score a VS blade.

[Modesty Lannister]

I've done some snooping around and I have an idea about Lamentation.

Let's start from the only quote related to a Valyrian steel sword being used in the storming of KL's Dragonpit we have.

Quote

Many a conflicting tale is told of the death of the queen’s dragon. Some credit Hobb the Hewer and his axe, though this is almost certainly mistaken. Could the same man truly have slain two dragons on the same night and in the same manner? Some speak of an unnamed spearman, “a blood-soaked giant” who leapt from the Dragonpit’s broken dome onto the dragon’s back. Others relate how a knight named Ser Warrick Wheaton slashed a wing from Syrax with a Valyrian steel sword. A crossbowman named Bean would claim the kill afterward, boasting of it in many a wine sink and tavern, until one of the queen’s loyalists grew tired of his wagging tongue and cut it out. The truth of the matter no one will ever know—except that Syrax died that night. TPATQ

We also have a single quote mentioning Lamentation.

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STORMING OF THE DRAGONPIT, no true battle, where an unruly mob, under the leadership of a man known as the Shepherd, went mad. This resulted in the death of five dragons; the loss of both Ser Willum Royce and the Valyrian sword Lamentation that he bore; and the deaths of Ser Glendon Goode, who was Lord Commander of the Queensguard for one day, and Joffrey, Prince of Dragonstone. TWOIAF

There is no House Wheaton in Westeros that we know of. Since, Ser Warrick Wheaton was a part of "an unruly mob", led by a man known as Shepherd (a pseudonym), I assumed that Wheaton was a false surname as well. But, when people invent pseudonyms, they start from what they know, what is close to them, what reveals their "true nature" or bears an association that serves as a hint to whose identity really hides behind a pseudonym. 

So, I played with this name a little. Wheaton = Wheat + ton

I searched for a noun wheat and searchoficeandfire.com gave me 28 finds. Fields of wheat mentioned can be found in the Reach, in the Vale and in the Stormlands. But, there is only one House in whole of Westeros that has wheat on its sigil - House Selmy whose seat is Harvest Hall in the Stormland marches not far from the Reach and Ashford. The sigil of House Selmy is three stalks of yellow wheat, on a brown field. Since Ser Warrick Wheaton is said to have cut one of Syrax's wings off, he must have been a supporter of the greens, which fits, because House Baratheon, the lord paramount house of the Stormlands was supporting the greens firmly and house Selmy is its subordinate house. There is also another hint that may point to House Selmy - Wheaton = Wheat Ton = Wheat Town = Harvest Hall (in this context, I put = as a signifier of association)

On the other hand, word ton is appears as a part of a toponym just once in Westeros. The only town whose name ends with ton is Tumbleton, which was reduced to ashes during Dance of the Dragons. So, mysterious Ser Warrick Wheaton can be someone from Tumbleton. But, Tumbleton supported the blacks, not greens, so it seems illogical that someone from that city should slay a dragon.

So, if this little speculation is true, Lamentation can be currently sitting in Harvest Hall with lord Arstan Selmy or, which I find more likely, be in possession of Ser Barristan Selmy. Also, House Selmy was first mentioned as a lower house and then it was mentioned that Arstan is a high lord. Maybe, storming (from Stormlands? Anyone?) of the Dragonpit marked the rise of house Selmy to that position since one of their own proved themselves to Baratheons by wounding Syrax and obtaining a Valyrian steel sword.

Eddard Stark remembers how Selmy cut down "a dozen good men" at the Trident while Varys describes him as:

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"Try not to look so shocked, Lord Stark. Jaime Lannister is himself a Sworn Brother of the White Swords, and we all know what his oath is worth. The days when men like Ryam Redwyne and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight wore the white cloak are gone to dust and song. Of these seven, only Ser Barristan Selmy is made of the true steel, and Selmy is old. AGOT, Eddard VII

Sansa tells us that, when he was dismissed by Cersei, Ser Barristan threw his Kingsguard sword on the ground and left.

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Sansa heard someone gasp. Ser Boros and Ser Meryn moved forward to confront him, but Ser Barristan froze them in place with a look that dripped contempt. "Have no fear, sers, your king is safe … no thanks to you. Even now, I could cut through the five of you as easy as a dagger cuts cheese. If you would serve under the Kingslayer, not a one of you is fit to wear the white." He flung his sword at the foot of the Iron Throne. "Here, boy. Melt it down and add it to the others, if you like. It will do you more good than the swords in the hands of these five. Perhaps Lord Stannis will chance to sit on it when he takes your throne." AGOT, Sansa V

And this tells us Barristan the Bold has another sword.

There are subtle parallels between Ser Warrick Wheaton and Ser Barristan the Bold.

Ser Warrick Wheaton is a mystery knight, because we do not know who he is.

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Bran nodded sagely. Mystery knights would oft appear at tourneys, with helms concealing their faces, and shields that were either blank or bore some strange device. Sometimes they were famous champions in disguise. The Dragonknight once won a tourney as the Knight of Tears, so he could name his sister the queen of love and beauty in place of the king's mistress. And Barristan the Bold twice donned a mystery knight's armor, the first time when he was only ten." AFFC, Bran II

It can also be said that both of them slew the last black dragon. Ser Wheaton slew Syrax, the last dragon of the blacks, while Ser Barristan killed Maelys the Monstrous, last of the Blackfyre Pretenders, in single combat during the War of the Ninepenny Kings.

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"The Blackfyre pretenders troubled the Targaryens for five generations, until Barristan the Bold slew the last of them on the Stepstones." ASOS, Catelyn V

Yet, Tyrion dreams of fighting with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel by his side, which seems paradoxical, but it may be seen as a foreshadowing of not only reunification of the House Targaryen, but also of two swords - Lamentation and Blackfyre fighting on the same side.

Lastly, Ser Barristan Selmy in his own thoughts laments over his youth and love for Ashara Dayne, laments over a missed opportunity to unhorse Prince Rhaegar in Harrenhal and prevent the chain of events that led to demise of the House Targaryan. So, his life is one big lamentation.

Take it all with a pinch of salt, but it is fascinating nevertheless.