Let's Find The Swords

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

1 hour ago, Modesty Lannister said:

I've done some snooping around and I have an idea about Lamentation.

Let's start from the only quote related to a Valyrian steel sword being used in the storming of KL's Dragonpit we have.

We also have a single quote mentioning Lamentation.

There is no House Wheaton in Westeros that we know of. Since, Ser Warrick Wheaton was a part of "an unruly mob", led by a man known as Shepherd (a pseudonym), I assumed that Wheaton was a false surname as well. But, when people invent pseudonyms, they start from what they know, what is close to them, what reveals their "true nature" or bears an association that serves as a hint to whose identity really hides behind a pseudonym. 

So, I played with this name a little. Wheaton = Wheat + ton

I searched for a noun wheat and searchoficeandfire.com gave me 28 finds. Fields of wheat mentioned can be found in the Reach, in the Vale and in the Stormlands. But, there is only one House in whole of Westeros that has wheat on its sigil - House Selmy whose seat is Harvest Hall in the Stormland marches not far from the Reach and Ashford. The sigil of House Selmy is three stalks of yellow wheat, on a brown field. Since Ser Warrick Wheaton is said to have cut one of Syrax's wings off, he must have been a supporter of the greens, which fits, because House Baratheon, the lord paramount house of the Stormlands was supporting the greens firmly and house Selmy is its subordinate house. There is also another hint that may point to House Selmy - Wheaton = Wheat Ton = Wheat Town = Harvest Hall (in this context, I put = as a signifier of association)

On the other hand, word ton is appears as a part of a toponym just once in Westeros. The only town whose name ends with ton is Tumbleton, which was reduced to ashes during Dance of the Dragons. So, mysterious Ser Warrick Wheaton can be someone from Tumbleton. But, Tumbleton supported the blacks, not greens, so it seems illogical that someone from that city should slay a dragon.

So, if this little speculation is true, Lamentation can be currently sitting in Harvest Hall with lord Arstan Selmy or, which I find more likely, be in possession of Ser Barristan Selmy. Also, House Selmy was first mentioned as a lower house and then it was mentioned that Arstan is a high lord. Maybe, storming (from Stormlands? Anyone?) of the Dragonpit marked the rise of house Selmy to that position since one of their own proved themselves to Baratheons by wounding Syrax and obtaining a Valyrian steel sword.

Eddard Stark remembers how Selmy cut down "a dozen good men" at the Trident while Varys describes him as:

Sansa tells us that, when he was dismissed by Cersei, Ser Barristan threw his Kingsguard sword on the ground and left.

And this tells us Barristan the Bold has another sword.

There are subtle parallels between Ser Warrick Wheaton and Ser Barristan the Bold.

Ser Warrick Wheaton is a mystery knight, because we do not know who he is.

It can also be said that both of them slew the last black dragon. Ser Wheaton slew Syrax, the last dragon of the blacks, while Ser Barristan killed Maelys the Monstrous, last of the Blackfyre Pretenders, in single combat during the War of the Ninepenny Kings.

Yet, Tyrion dreams of fighting with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel by his side, which seems paradoxical, but it may be seen as a foreshadowing of not only reunification of the House Targaryen, but also of two swords - Lamentation and Blackfyre fighting on the same side.

Lastly, Ser Barristan Selmy in his own thoughts laments over his youth and love for Ashara Dayne, laments over a missed opportunity to unhorse Prince Rhaegar in Harrenhal and prevent the chain of events that led to demise of the House Targaryan. So, his life is one big lamentation.

Take it all with a pinch of salt, but it is fascinating nevertheless.

 

I don't think Barristan currently has lamentation but damn that is some good sleuthing! I could see it being at Harvest Hall, or possibly given in tribute to the Baratheons? Odd that whoever claimed it would never flash it around though.

[Curled Finger]

20 hours ago, 1000th Lord Commander said:

We know where Oath Keeper is

We haven't seen much of the Hightowers in the present day, it's entirely possible that it survived the Dance and is sitting in a chamber in the tower.

Valyrian swords are too valuable to be buried with someone. While I like the theory that LF has it, I would say its in KL, locked away.

Orphan maker is unknown. It could have been recovered by the Roxtons, stolen by one of the killers, melted into the ground by Seasmokes dragonfire. No idea

Dark Sister is a interesting one. Despite Longclaw, I see no reason as to why Bloodraven would have been allowed to take it with him to the Wall, particularly after the loss of Blackfyre. The Targaryans would have held onto thier last blade tightly, and yet we see no evidence of it being used afterwards.

Blackfyre could have been recovered by the Targs? in the passage on the Third Blackfyre rebellion, Heagon I is slain after he 'gives up his sword'. Was he wielding Blackfyre at the time? If so, it shares a fate with Dark Sister

Truth in Westeros is an interesting Theory, but I see no evidence in what we know of the family. Larra's younger brother wields Truth, and he leads a army against Lys at one point. Larra also goes back to Lys, after her children are born. However, Aegon, Larra's eldest son, does go on a diplomatic mission to Braavos in 161 AC, while Larra is dead by this point, its possible he could have met up with his uncle then. The other option, is that Larra's uncle was Prince consort to Dorne, and Truth could have ended up in thier hands. Still, both of these are quite a stretch.

 

Hi 1000th LC, thanks for weighing in.   Your comments lead me to believe you are a pragmatists.  Excellent.  Let's break it down with the little bit I can offer.   The Hightowers used to be the big dogs in the Reach but the Tyrells were raised above them after RR, I believe.   They seem to be a prolific bunch, with all those kids.  The head of the family, Leyton Hightower, is said to be locked in the top of the tower with his daughter known as the Mad Maid.    They are said to be studying spells.   Any powerful family who still credits magic with any power needs to be taken note of.   I lean toward Vigilance remaining with them, though Modesty Lannister has sure given us an alternative to chew on.   Based solely on this affinity for magic the head Hightower is said to have, I'm thinking they are keeping the sword at all costs because they may understand the sword's purpose.   Maybe not, but that's where I'm at.    I agree 100% that VS is a foolish thing to bury a person with.   I've found no mention of anyone being buried with VS anywhere.    I think we can safely ignore the Joffrey has WW idea.   Orphan-Maker is such a mystery.   I ask, why is it that the only thing we actually know is that it has a black blade?   I looked earlier today, but I think the Roxtons are extinct.  I got a big goose egg on that search.   So they couldn't have it.   I tend to think one of those 10 suspiciously unnamed men claimed it.   It's really anyone's guess as to DS & BF.   But I do kinda like DS paving the way to the Wall for Longclaw.   I'm not so sure the Valyrians valued the VS like the 1st Men or Andals.   That moron Aegon IV gave them both away.    Could it be he had his mom's family VS so he didn't care?    Probably not.   He just seemed to enjoy chaos.    So not all the Targs placed great value on the swords.   Pity that, the Crownlands loosing both of their swords.   How fortunate Ice was a big sword that 2 replacements could be forged from.   

Truth.  Man, 1000th LC, I can't even begin to figure out why this sword is considered one of the 12 VS swords of WESTEROS.   By virtue of being on the list I think it had to have come to Westeros at some point.   Why mention it at all if not?   There and again, your guess is as good as mine on this thing.   That cool theory was shared with me by Lady Blizzardborn last summer I think.   She reminded me of the passage where Quaithe tells Dany she will find truth...somewhere and wrapped the whole thing up that it was actually Truth that was meant. There are so many holes in pretty much everything surrounding Truth.   It was an awfully cool play on words though.   Thanks for your level-headed approach to the swords.    Hope to hear more from your rational mind!  

[Curled Finger]

20 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Me too :-)

Using the tapestries as a pretext for smuggling something out makes a lot of sense - why did LF want those tapestries, only to gift them to Royce? Doesn't make much sense, does it. And Ned Stark's reforged sword belongs with Ned Stark's offspring. 

You know, Ygrain, I picked up on the tapestries on my very 1st read, which is more than I can say about 80% of the other ideas that float around the boards.   When I read the sample chapter from TWOW last year I was so stinking disappointed that's all there was to it.    So yeah, I'm on board with something else in the tapestries.  I'm just not sure it was this valuable sword.   Not for Sansa, anyway.   But in this weird romantic part of me I can picture it.    I haven't yet enjoyed the new Radio Westeros episode, but it is top of my list of to do this weekend.   I've thought all along there is a purpose for the swords, named and rare.   I think the original families who owned them have some significance as well as where they were originally housed.  This is where I can buy into WW in the Vale.  Lamentation was important and had a role to play in the overall purpose.   It needed to be replaced in the Vale.   I made a little chart at work today and came up with homes for nearly all the swords that I could track information for.   2 in the North, 2 in the Vale, 2 in the Westerlands, 2 in the Reach, 2 in the Crownlands--that's only 10 I know, but Truth and Orphan-Maker have to fit in somewhere and I wouldn't be surprised to find 1 in the Stormlands and 1 in the Riverlands, but I have no proof at all.   Theory aside, based exclusively on "last known location" there are: 1 in the Vale, 1 in the Crownlands, 2 in the Reach, 1 at the Wall, 1 in the RL, 2 on the II, 0 in the North, Westerlands or Stormlands.    They are moving and have been all along.   But where are they going?  We shall see if I become a believer after listening to the show!  

[Curled Finger]

19 hours ago, Belgarad said:

I believe that BR glamoured DS, much like how Mel glamoured Stannis' version of Lightbringer.  That way it could pass as an ordinary sword that he took with him to the wall.  Subsequently he carried it through all his days on the wall until his final ranging where he was "lost" and he still has it in the cave.

As for who will wield it, I believe it will be Hodor to use it when being warged by Bran.

Oh I like that Belgarad!   Hadn't crossed my radar at all, but of course BR could pull off a trick like that.    Nice.   

[Curled Finger]

18 hours ago, Modesty Lannister said:

Thank you, Curled Finger. Yes, the most elaborate information comes from TWOIAF, but there are bits in The Princess and the Queen as well.

If the Vigilance is in the possession of the Dustins, it would explain Ned Stark's behaviour during Robert's rebellion. First of all, it would explain why he would take lord Dustin to the Tower of Joy with him. We have no record of Ned Stark being friends with lord Dustin at all. So, why would he take him to such an important mission? Why would he risk that House Dustin learns details of Lyanna's fate firsthand and possibly spread rumours throughout the north later? Furthermore, lord Dustin's wife was Barbrey Dustin who was prior to that marriage a mistress of Ned's brother Brandon Stark. So, I bet lord Dustin was not a close mate with Ned. Ned grew up in the Vale. Lord Dustin grew up with Brandon Stark who was fostered in Borrowton. Brandon took Barbrey's virginity and that was a woman Dustin would later marry. Two guys chasing after the same girl, one being the heir to the Lord Paramount of the North and the other being his liege, but aware of the glorious past of his house. I bet there was much rivalry there. But, back to the ToJ. If lord Dustin had Vigilance, it would explain why Ned needed him for this mission. An additional Valyrian steel sword would help a great deal. But, what happened at the ToJ? Lord Dustin perished and all lady Dustin got from Ned was a red stallion she gave to her husband before leaving south. No wonder lady Dustin is furious with Ned if Vigilance is missing. And I suspect she accuses Ned of stealing it after lord Dustin's death. I also suspect that was the true reason why she went to the crypts of Winterfell. She was especially looking at the swords that sat next to statues of Kings in the North. She was the one to spot the missing swords. So, she was concentrating on the swords. I suspect she expected to find Vigilance there and when she didn't, she never went back down there again. A possibility that she sees Ned Stark as the person who took Vigilance explains her grudge against him. Otherwise she has no motive. Why would she hate the man who went to war to avenge her beloved Brandon? But, now, she is plotting to steel Ned's bones. Maybe she wants to trade these bones for Vigilance?

 

I'm coming back to YOU.   Isn't that just the strangest thing that a sword would be lost in both battles at Tumbleton?    Oh yeah, this is hinky. 

[Curled Finger]

10 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

I thought this as I was reading since she specifically mentions the sword's beauty (paraphrasing here) but I've seen other people on the forum mention it too. I think it's very possible. 

I think it's a good bet, but all the ideas have some weight and credibility.  I enjoy the sheer irony of WW going to Loras in this way.   

[Curled Finger]

8 hours ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

Ha, no problem. Unfortunately I don't have a lot of ideas on where swords are now. I started following the thread because I have a lot more questions than answers in this regard.

My thinking before reading the "WW in the Vale" theory was that WW is still in the Red Keep somewhere, and that Arya would retrieve it at some point in a callback to her Red Keep cat-ninja skills learned in Book 1.

An alternate theory of mine (still starting with WW in the Red Keep) is that Cercei and Tommen flee to Casterly Rock at some point, and Tommen takes his sword with him. I think Cercei and Tyrion having a showdown over ownership of CR is highly likely. So if Tyrion wins and Tommen is killed in the conflict, Tyrion might take WW. I think there's symbolism to support that, too, but it's kind of involved.

The idea of Tommen giving WW to Loras is interesting, too, but I'm not sure where the story would go from there. Plus it's a smaller sword so I'm not sure if Loras would take it into battle with him--would the VS-ness outweigh the shorter reach in his mind?

 

I'm not sure about WW as a replacement for Lamentation. The names are rather similar. But I tend to think WW's fate will be with either a Stark or a Lannister.

On the other hand, the more general idea that having two VS swords in the Vale is important--like one for each of two potential factions?--is quite intriguing. Lamentation and Lady Forlorn belonging to Royce and Corbray, who were historical enemies before Arryn's came to dominate, could support that idea.

ETA: And Littlefinger, who is well aware of the importance of class and class markers, does seem like a likely person to try and score a VS blade.

Ahha!   You are forming some ideas then.   Excellent.  Put that clever mind of your to work on how WW will serve both the story and its purpose by being in the Vale.   I've got a little vision of this and quite frankly, I like it.   The swords are moving.   Maybe back to the bases they were meant to have.  In my excitement, I wasn't clear about WW replacing Lamentation.   I honestly think the swords will have to all surface and start heading North.   I believe 12 heroes will wield them.   I believe as many as 3 or 4 of these heroes will be women or children. In that I think WW is probably similar to DS It is tapped for Arya in my dream team.   But I digress.  WW could be much bigger than I believe it to be.  Until we know for sure this is my working theory.  I don't know what all the swords are, but I only came up with 3 great swords,  Heartsbane, Bright Roar and Ice.   That we should lose a monster sword to make 2 swords smaller heroes can maneuver makes a poetic sense to me.   And I could be nuts.   Better yet, Beth, figure out how Lyn Corbray will lose his famous sword!   I've read plenty of your stuff and when you enjoy a thing you are heart and soul.    I hope the swords will some day excite you like some of the other things you obviously really enjoy.    In the interim, you are welcome here with all your ideas! 

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

I don't think Barristan currently has lamentation but damn that is some good sleuthing! I could see it being at Harvest Hall, or possibly given in tribute to the Baratheons? Odd that whoever claimed it would never flash it around though.

It really is odd that the swords aren't more prominent.   

[Curled Finger]

18 hours ago, Modesty Lannister said:

If the Vigilance is in the possession of the Dustins, it would explain Ned Stark's behaviour during Robert's rebellion. First of all, it would explain why he would take lord Dustin to the Tower of Joy with him. We have no record of Ned Stark being friends with lord Dustin at all. So, why would he take him to such an important mission? Why would he risk that House Dustin learns details of Lyanna's fate firsthand and possibly spread rumours throughout the north later? Furthermore, lord Dustin's wife was Barbrey Dustin who was prior to that marriage a mistress of Ned's brother Brandon Stark. So, I bet lord Dustin was not a close mate with Ned. Ned grew up in the Vale. Lord Dustin grew up with Brandon Stark who was fostered in Borrowton. Brandon took Barbrey's virginity and that was a woman Dustin would later marry. Two guys chasing after the same girl, one being the heir to the Lord Paramount of the North and the other being his liege, but aware of the glorious past of his house. I bet there was much rivalry there. But, back to the ToJ. If lord Dustin had Vigilance, it would explain why Ned needed him for this mission. An additional Valyrian steel sword would help a great deal. But, what happened at the ToJ? Lord Dustin perished and all lady Dustin got from Ned was a red stallion she gave to her husband before leaving south. No wonder lady Dustin is furious with Ned if Vigilance is missing. And I suspect she accuses Ned of stealing it after lord Dustin's death. I also suspect that was the true reason why she went to the crypts of Winterfell. She was especially looking at the swords that sat next to statues of Kings in the North. She was the one to spot the missing swords. So, she was concentrating on the swords. I suspect she expected to find Vigilance there and when she didn't, she never went back down there again. A possibility that she sees Ned Stark as the person who took Vigilance explains her grudge against him. Otherwise she has no motive. Why would she hate the man who went to war to avenge her beloved Brandon? But, now, she is plotting to steel Ned's bones. Maybe she wants to trade these bones for Vigilance?

 

Duck low so all the hearts flying out of my eyes for you don't hit you on the nose.   Modesty, I had a little bit of time between drudgery at work to check on posts and make charts and basically goof off.    I love the way your mind works so I'm just going to go with the results of my research today.   I even made notes with a full on quote and promptly left it on my desk.   Curses, I hope you will be patient with my lame paraphrases.    Ned remembers Lord Dustin fondly, "knew their faces better than his own" i think it says.   They were friends.   As to Lady D...well, it could be no one knows Brandon was "fencing" with her.   And I'm sure she thinks a lot more of Brandon than he ever thought of her, but that's me speculating.   He just seemed like an alleycat to me.   I don't know that Lord Dustin actually wanted to marry Lady D.   It was probably something he was commanded to do, like they all are.   At this point I feel sorry for the guy.    I read the fever dream over twice and found no particular mention of Dustin's sword.   Fine, maybe he was the new lord and didn't actually have it.   What i did discover was how interesting that Ice should go up against Dawn and win.    Oh yes, Curled Finger's Endgame is shaping up nicely now.   The horse really did seem to be the important thing to get back to Lady D.   There was a certain urgency to that action that is on par with getting Lyanna's bones home and Dawn to Starfall.    Curious.   All in all, I think Ned was traveling with close friends and bannermen.   No clue or hint to Vigilance in that.   As to Lady D, your guess is as good as mine, I just think she is wearing this bitterness act like Sansa wears her courtesy act.   There is a whole lot more to that story.   

[Curled Finger]

5 hours ago, Modesty Lannister said:

I've done some snooping around and I have an idea about Lamentation.

Let's start from the only quote related to a Valyrian steel sword being used in the storming of KL's Dragonpit we have.

We also have a single quote mentioning Lamentation.

There is no House Wheaton in Westeros that we know of. Since, Ser Warrick Wheaton was a part of "an unruly mob", led by a man known as Shepherd (a pseudonym), I assumed that Wheaton was a false surname as well. But, when people invent pseudonyms, they start from what they know, what is close to them, what reveals their "true nature" or bears an association that serves as a hint to whose identity really hides behind a pseudonym. 

So, I played with this name a little. Wheaton = Wheat + ton

I searched for a noun wheat and searchoficeandfire.com gave me 28 finds. Fields of wheat mentioned can be found in the Reach, in the Vale and in the Stormlands. But, there is only one House in whole of Westeros that has wheat on its sigil - House Selmy whose seat is Harvest Hall in the Stormland marches not far from the Reach and Ashford. The sigil of House Selmy is three stalks of yellow wheat, on a brown field. Since Ser Warrick Wheaton is said to have cut one of Syrax's wings off, he must have been a supporter of the greens, which fits, because House Baratheon, the lord paramount house of the Stormlands was supporting the greens firmly and house Selmy is its subordinate house. There is also another hint that may point to House Selmy - Wheaton = Wheat Ton = Wheat Town = Harvest Hall (in this context, I put = as a signifier of association)

On the other hand, word ton is appears as a part of a toponym just once in Westeros. The only town whose name ends with ton is Tumbleton, which was reduced to ashes during Dance of the Dragons. So, mysterious Ser Warrick Wheaton can be someone from Tumbleton. But, Tumbleton supported the blacks, not greens, so it seems illogical that someone from that city should slay a dragon.

So, if this little speculation is true, Lamentation can be currently sitting in Harvest Hall with lord Arstan Selmy or, which I find more likely, be in possession of Ser Barristan Selmy. Also, House Selmy was first mentioned as a lower house and then it was mentioned that Arstan is a high lord. Maybe, storming (from Stormlands? Anyone?) of the Dragonpit marked the rise of house Selmy to that position since one of their own proved themselves to Baratheons by wounding Syrax and obtaining a Valyrian steel sword.

Eddard Stark remembers how Selmy cut down "a dozen good men" at the Trident while Varys describes him as:

Sansa tells us that, when he was dismissed by Cersei, Ser Barristan threw his Kingsguard sword on the ground and left.

And this tells us Barristan the Bold has another sword.

There are subtle parallels between Ser Warrick Wheaton and Ser Barristan the Bold.

Ser Warrick Wheaton is a mystery knight, because we do not know who he is.

It can also be said that both of them slew the last black dragon. Ser Wheaton slew Syrax, the last dragon of the blacks, while Ser Barristan killed Maelys the Monstrous, last of the Blackfyre Pretenders, in single combat during the War of the Ninepenny Kings.

Yet, Tyrion dreams of fighting with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel by his side, which seems paradoxical, but it may be seen as a foreshadowing of not only reunification of the House Targaryen, but also of two swords - Lamentation and Blackfyre fighting on the same side.

Lastly, Ser Barristan Selmy in his own thoughts laments over his youth and love for Ashara Dayne, laments over a missed opportunity to unhorse Prince Rhaegar in Harrenhal and prevent the chain of events that led to demise of the House Targaryan. So, his life is one big lamentation.

Take it all with a pinch of salt, but it is fascinating nevertheless.

 

I love this.   Duck quick!   Let's try a different tact with this.   I'm thinking there may have been 2 VS swords in the pit.   Lamentation is melted and (insert name of missing sword here) is the 2nd sword.   Ser Wheaton realized his error in showing the sword and made up a name for himself.  Yes, I know that's lame, but I'm stuck on Lamentation being really and truly lost as in gone forever lost.   I found out that a Tyrone Wheaton was a Giants runningback about 15 years ago.   I don't know which team it is that GRRM roots for so when I couldn't find any Wheatons either, I figured it could be one of his little inside joke references.   If he's a Jets fan this is a mockery.   If he's a Giant's fan I don't know what it is.   Still, Tyrone is the only Wheaton I could come up with.  If I'm completely wrong and this is a real story guy, he is a knight.   I'm all for Barristan Selmy having a sword worthy of him.   What I haven't yet investigated is whether or not he had a sword when he met up with Dany.  I recall a dagger and a stick, but I have to go back to be sure.   I'm all for the Stormlands having a secret VS sword even if Ser Grampa himself doesn't have it.   You most cleverly used the terminology "mystery knight" in conjunction with our Ser Wheaton.    Could be that's exactly what he was.    But DAMN that was some fine detective work and wicked illustration.  

The only problem I have with any of it is there is no mention of Vigilance at Tumbleton or even a lousy passing description of the sword our mystery knight used.    It's downright weird that a VS sword is twice mentioned in the pits (where we assumed there was but 1 sword) and only once at Tumbleton (where we assume there were 2).   

I ask you, Modesty Lannister, do you have any idea at all who any of the 10 unnamed men at the 2nd battle at Tumbleton were?   (I sounded like a lawyer there to myself, sorry.)  I'm going to start my research by purchasing a hard copy of TPATQ.   Will report back with anything juicy.   You are a marvel, Modesty.      

[Modesty Lannister]

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I love this.   Duck quick!   Let's try a different tact with this.   I'm thinking there may have been 2 VS swords in the pit.   Lamentation is melted and (insert name of missing sword here) is the 2nd sword.   Ser Wheaton realized his error in showing the sword and made up a name for himself.  Yes, I know that's lame, but I'm stuck on Lamentation being really and truly lost as in gone forever lost.   I found out that a Tyrone Wheaton was a Giants runningback about 15 years ago.   I don't know which team it is that GRRM roots for so when I couldn't find any Wheatons either, I figured it could be one of his little inside joke references.   If he's a Jets fan this is a mockery.   If he's a Giant's fan I don't know what it is.   Still, Tyrone is the only Wheaton I could come up with.  If I'm completely wrong and this is a real story guy, he is a knight.   I'm all for Barristan Selmy having a sword worthy of him.   What I haven't yet investigated is whether or not he had a sword when he met up with Dany.  I recall a dagger and a stick, but I have to go back to be sure.   I'm all for the Stormlands having a secret VS sword even if Ser Grampa himself doesn't have it.   You most cleverly used the terminology "mystery knight" in conjunction with our Ser Wheaton.    Could be that's exactly what he was.    But DAMN that was some fine detective work and wicked illustration.  

The only problem I have with any of it is there is no mention of Vigilance at Tumbleton or even a lousy passing description of the sword our mystery knight used.    It's downright weird that a VS sword is twice mentioned in the pits (where we assumed there was but 1 sword) and only once at Tumbleton (where we assume there were 2).   

I ask you, Modesty Lannister, do you have any idea at all who any of the 10 unnamed men at the 2nd battle at Tumbleton were?   (I sounded like a lawyer there to myself, sorry.)  I'm going to start my research by purchasing a hard copy of TPATQ.   Will report back with anything juicy.   You are a marvel, Modesty.      

Thanks again, I will look into 10 unnamed men. If one reads with a purpose, something always pops up. Btw, I love Tyrone Wheaton find! Just a small gem, but nevertheless ... lol. You confused me with 2 swords in the dragon pit. The only sword mentioned is Lamentation. As for whether Ser Barristan had a sword when he met Dany, officially he did not. He was given one by Strong Belwas on Dany's order. But, there are two things one has to consider. First, Ser Barristan has been a Kingsguard since his teens. So, the man knows how to keep a secret. Secondly, a knight of Ser Barristan's calibre does not go around without a sword. So, it is difficult to imagine he would travel from KL to Essos armed with a dagger and a stick. Ser Barristan has so many secrets that it's mind-blowing. I plan to publish my discoveries of what really happened in Duskendale when Aerys I was taken. While researching that, Selmy's role in it became more complicated and fascinating. So, the man we know on the surface is just a tip of an iceberg (not in a bad way at all). Hiding Lamentation would fit his profile perfectly. I do not believe he left it at Harvest Hall. He might be carrying it around, but he might have given it to someone else. I will investigate this further.

But, let's move from microcosmos to macrocosmos. What was the Dance? It was a coup d'etat disguised as a civil war or war between two Targaryen house branches. Who led the coup d'etat? Someone who wanted to kill dragons and take away that "weapon of mass destruction" from Targaryens. Someone who wanted to destroy "all things magical". My head is instantly turning towards Oldtown. I should do some more snooping and I bet George let enough tiny clues for piecing this puzzle. No wonder Hightowers play a prominent role in the Dance. Maesters and the fate of seven are behind all this. Targaryens just fell for it. I think that GRRM used the name Shepherd for two reasons. Shepherds are the ones who suffer most from the dragons, because they feed them with their flocks. This should be taken metaphorically. Also, a shepherd is a priest, a septon in this context. So, I believe Shepherd was a septon working closely with the maesters. Secondly, GRRM has an inspiration from real life and that is Tyler's rebellion in England. On the face of it, that was a "peasant uprising". But, actually, it was a clever ruse by hiding Templars to get into the church of Temple in London and take away something mysterious that belonged to their order (check excellent book "Born in Blood"). Tyler can also be seen as a code name. It is elaborated in the book I mentioned. The book is so seminal when it comes to the history of Freemasons that GRRM, as a history buff, almost certainly read it. 

In the context of the swords, I am thinking of two separate fractions fighting for the swords. The faction that condones magic and the faction fighting to destroy it. The north was and is firmly in the former. Hence, my utter glee when I discovered that House Dustin may have Vigilance. That would be a point for the pro-magic side. House Selmy is also firmly in the former camp. I was really shocked by my own discovery yesterday. Pleasantly so. So, that would be two swords snatched from the maesters. 

But, we must not delude ourselves. Maesters must have snatched some swords. How else would they make their chains? At least the bits signifying magical training. (know your enemy and all that) That Valyrian steel must have come from somewhere and I bet Targs were not just giving away their Valyrian steel objects. It'd be like the US army giving away its most sophisticated technology. Not going to happen. 

I think I see where your theory with the swords is going. It fits well with my own very elaborate theory of what is really going on. I'd like to know more about your pairing of the swords with personalities. I hope you had in mind the fact that ASOIAF is mostly a saga about second sons. In more ways than one. Looking forward to your reply.

[Modesty Lannister]

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I ask you, Modesty Lannister, do you have any idea at all who any of the 10 unnamed men at the 2nd battle at Tumbleton were?   (I sounded like a lawyer there to myself, sorry.)  I'm going to start my research by purchasing a hard copy of TPATQ.   Will report back with anything juicy.   You are a marvel, Modesty.      

Can you provide me with a quote mentioning these 10 unarmed men? I read through the Second Battle and I couldn't find them.

[Curled Finger]

7 hours ago, Modesty Lannister said:

Can you provide me with a quote mentioning these 10 unarmed men? I read through the Second Battle and I couldn't find them.

A dozen of Hard Hugh’s men came running in time to see him die. Even a Valyrian steel blade like Orphan-Maker little avails a man when it is one against ten. Bold Jon Roxton slew three before he was slain in turn. It is said that he died when his foot slipped on a coil of Hugh Hammer’s entrails, but perhaps that detail is too perfectly ironic to be true.   TPATQ 

Hope that helps because I searched the paragraphs above and below and got nada.  They seem to have been loyal to Hugh Hammer or at least on his side as he proclaimed himself king.  

[Curled Finger]

20 hours ago, Modesty Lannister said:

Thanks again, I will look into 10 unnamed men. If one reads with a purpose, something always pops up. Btw, I love Tyrone Wheaton find! Just a small gem, but nevertheless ... lol. You confused me with 2 swords in the dragon pit. The only sword mentioned is Lamentation. As for whether Ser Barristan had a sword when he met Dany, officially he did not. He was given one by Strong Belwas on Dany's order. But, there are two things one has to consider. First, Ser Barristan has been a Kingsguard since his teens. So, the man knows how to keep a secret. Secondly, a knight of Ser Barristan's calibre does not go around without a sword. So, it is difficult to imagine he would travel from KL to Essos armed with a dagger and a stick. Ser Barristan has so many secrets that it's mind-blowing. I plan to publish my discoveries of what really happened in Duskendale when Aerys I was taken. While researching that, Selmy's role in it became more complicated and fascinating. So, the man we know on the surface is just a tip of an iceberg (not in a bad way at all). Hiding Lamentation would fit his profile perfectly. I do not believe he left it at Harvest Hall. He might be carrying it around, but he might have given it to someone else. I will investigate this further.

But, let's move from microcosmos to macrocosmos. What was the Dance? It was a coup d'etat disguised as a civil war or war between two Targaryen house branches. Who led the coup d'etat? Someone who wanted to kill dragons and take away that "weapon of mass destruction" from Targaryens. Someone who wanted to destroy "all things magical". My head is instantly turning towards Oldtown. I should do some more snooping and I bet George let enough tiny clues for piecing this puzzle. No wonder Hightowers play a prominent role in the Dance. Maesters and the fate of seven are behind all this. Targaryens just fell for it. I think that GRRM used the name Shepherd for two reasons. Shepherds are the ones who suffer most from the dragons, because they feed them with their flocks. This should be taken metaphorically. Also, a shepherd is a priest, a septon in this context. So, I believe Shepherd was a septon working closely with the maesters. Secondly, GRRM has an inspiration from real life and that is Tyler's rebellion in England. On the face of it, that was a "peasant uprising". But, actually, it was a clever ruse by hiding Templars to get into the church of Temple in London and take away something mysterious that belonged to their order (check excellent book "Born in Blood"). Tyler can also be seen as a code name. It is elaborated in the book I mentioned. The book is so seminal when it comes to the history of Freemasons that GRRM, as a history buff, almost certainly read it. 

In the context of the swords, I am thinking of two separate fractions fighting for the swords. The faction that condones magic and the faction fighting to destroy it. The north was and is firmly in the former. Hence, my utter glee when I discovered that House Dustin may have Vigilance. That would be a point for the pro-magic side. House Selmy is also firmly in the former camp. I was really shocked by my own discovery yesterday. Pleasantly so. So, that would be two swords snatched from the maesters. 

But, we must not delude ourselves. Maesters must have snatched some swords. How else would they make their chains? At least the bits signifying magical training. (know your enemy and all that) That Valyrian steel must have come from somewhere and I bet Targs were not just giving away their Valyrian steel objects. It'd be like the US army giving away its most sophisticated technology. Not going to happen. 

I think I see where your theory with the swords is going. It fits well with my own very elaborate theory of what is really going on. I'd like to know more about your pairing of the swords with personalities. I hope you had in mind the fact that ASOIAF is mostly a saga about second sons. In more ways than one. Looking forward to your reply.

Whenever I can't find any other mention at all of a character I figure it's got to be an inside thing.   I did get a kick out of it though.   As to 2 swords in the dragon pit...my only defense for this thinking is that Lamentation is named whereas Ser Wheaton's blade is not.   Seems to me someone would have known this mighty VS sword that actually took the wing off a famous dragon if it was Lamentation.  It is such a weird little statement, to name this Ser Wheaton and credit him with an amazing feat with a famous sword and not mention which sword.    Maybe not, it's just how I read it.   Thanks for the clarification on Barristan's arms upon meeting Dany.    It's not always easy to predict what Selmy will or would do.    Perhaps if he returns to Westeros he may visit his home and make his claims publically.   I will be eagerly awaiting your posts on the events at Duskendale.   

I am not sure anyone other than perhaps Sam and Jon even suspect the swords are magical, but then again I also think those families who were original owners may very well have had some clue as to their purpose.   They've certainly held on to them.   Now your idea that the Maesters may have taken and hidden some them is really fascinating.    Oh please, George, we really need some TWOW Sam chapters!  I imagine we will find some hint to that in TWOW.   As Old Town is the center of learning and home of the Citadel, isn't it just soooo interesting that Lord Hightower and his daughter would turn to spells.  I'm curious to find out what this is about.   Now I'm wondering what Pate is really after...

Agreed 100% that the Valyrians wouldn't knowingly give their treasures away.    Hence the enormous cost of VS.   However, I've never heard that the Mormonts were wealthy and I believe it's Nightfall that was found on the body of a dead corsair.  A lot about these swords makes no sense.   They were certainly not the original dragon steel.  But they are something perhaps successfully fashioned after it.  All I can back that up with is the wildfyre seems to be more manageable since the dragons were born it makes sense that all the magical things would experience a similar metamorphosis.  

My theory is basically the swords have to head North to do their job and serve their purpose.   They need to smote Others.   They need worthy heroes to get them there and take them to endgame.    It's not very glamorous, but I see an awful lot of indicators for it.   But, I'm a sword nut, so it doesn't take much.   Your 2nd sons haven't escaped my list of heroes!  Good luck with the unnamed men, I sure hope you can find even 1 name so we can scour the resources!     

[hiemal]

Does anyone have any ideas regarding the name of the "famous" sword wielded by Florian? I recall seeing it mentioned a couple times that he bore one, but the name itself has not been revealed to my knowledge. This seems like a purposeful omission on GRRM's part to me and makes me think there might be something hidden here.

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, hiemal said:

Does anyone have any ideas regarding the name of the "famous" sword wielded by Florian? I recall seeing it mentioned a couple times that he bore one, but the name itself has not been revealed to my knowledge. This seems like a purposeful omission on GRRM's part to me and makes me think there might be something hidden here.

Hi heimal, I searched Wiki and asearchoiceandfire and got you guessed it, a big old nothing.    What I did find curious was that Florian is mentioned as a Riverlands hero.   To the best of my knowledge, there were no VS swords in the Riverlands, though Brienne has Oathkeeper there now.   By my math (not that it actually means anything...) there should be 2 swords for the Crownlands, 2 for the North, 2 for the Vale, 2 for the Reach, 2 for the Westerlands and 2 others that don't really seem to fit anywhere since Dorne, the Riverlands and the Stormlands ought to be represented??? Maybe Dorne doesn't count since it joined the realm so late in the game (or because it has Dawn!)  so that would give both the RL & SL a sword each.   That doesn't even come close to answering your question, sorry.   I just thought it could be relevant for possibly identifying a famous sword prior to the advent of VS swords.  

[hiemal]

5 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Hi heimal, I searched Wiki and asearchoiceandfire and got you guessed it, a big old nothing.    What I did find curious was that Florian is mentioned as a Riverlands hero.   To the best of my knowledge, there were no VS swords in the Riverlands, though Brienne has Oathkeeper there now.   By my math (not that it actually means anything...) there should be 2 swords for the Crownlands, 2 for the North, 2 for the Vale, 2 for the Reach, 2 for the Westerlands and 2 others that don't really seem to fit anywhere since Dorne, the Riverlands and the Stormlands ought to be represented??? Maybe Dorne doesn't count since it joined the realm so late in the game (or because it has Dawn!)  so that would give both the RL & SL a sword each.   That doesn't even come close to answering your question, sorry.   I just thought it could be relevant for possibly identifying a famous sword prior to the advent of VS swords.  

Just Maid for the Stormlands, perhaps, and Florian's sword for the Riverlands?

To further confuse the issue, one of the descriptions (I thought I had dog-eared it in my last reread but now I can't find it- bah) of heroes and famous swords included Symeon Star-Eyes among the roster. I had previously only associated SSE with his double-bladed staff but it seems there could be another sword seeking a name.

[Hos the Hostage]

From what is in (or rather not in) the books, Dark Sister may have been lost with BR. However, I think it would be interesting if Rhaegar had it in his possession (either by inheriting it or by finding it from some secret place) and bequeathed it to his child with Lyanna. I have this tinfoil theory that the Varys and Illyrio will convince the GC to re-work Blackfyre into Dark Sister, and use it to 'prove' Aegon's parentage.

[Curled Finger]

21 hours ago, hiemal said:

Just Maid for the Stormlands, perhaps, and Florian's sword for the Riverlands?

To further confuse the issue, one of the descriptions (I thought I had dog-eared it in my last reread but now I can't find it- bah) of heroes and famous swords included Symeon Star-Eyes among the roster. I had previously only associated SSE with his double-bladed staff but it seems there could be another sword seeking a name.

Thanks hiemal, that's just exactly what I need, more swords to drive me utterly nuts!   When I checked the Wiki another hero was named with Symeon & Florian.    I thought it strange that there was no VS representation in either place.   

[Curled Finger]

17 hours ago, Hos the Hostage said:

From what is in (or rather not in) the books, Dark Sister may have been lost with BR. However, I think it would be interesting if Rhaegar had it in his possession (either by inheriting it or by finding it from some secret place) and bequeathed it to his child with Lyanna. I have this tinfoil theory that the Varys and Illyrio will convince the GC to re-work Blackfyre into Dark Sister, and use it to 'prove' Aegon's parentage.

Hos, before I really got into researching the swords I was convinced Blackfyre was in the crypts.   Between you and me, since no one is watching, I think there may just be another type of Valyrian Steel in Lyanna's crypt that Rhaegar may have left, but it's not a sword.   I have no proof, just the same sort of thinking, that there has to be some proof of parentage.  I'd like them to find Torrhen's and Aegon's crowns in the crypt.  Hard to fight a couple of crowns.    But that's a whole other favorite topic!   I'm looking for some very intense irony when these swords find their ultimate masters.