Let's Find The Swords

[Hos the Hostage]

@Curled Finger  Interesting - I never wondered about Torrhen's crown. I always thought Aegon's crown must still be in Dorne, and I've read theories that Doran or Arianne might crown Aegon VI with it. Nevertheless, the original Targaryen crown was lost with Daeron the Young Dragon, who was one of Jon's heroes. We know it was lost in Dorne, but we don't know where. It would be really cool if Jon would inherit that. More so because, if R+L=J, then Jon's birth somewhat mirrors Daeron's death - three kingsguard, one of them of supreme talent(Aemon the Dragonknight and Arthur Dayne), one Targ king(Dareon dying vs newborn Jon) facing the rebels in northeast of Dorne (Prince's Pass vs Tower of Joy).

However, I think it less probable that Blackfyre be in Winterfell. It could be in the crypts, but when a Tyrion sample chapter was released before publication of DwD, there was a conversation between Illyrio and JonCon or Varys (don't recall which) from which the few words Tyrion could decipher was 'sword' and 'queen'. This was cut in the final version of the book. Many readers (especially those who support Aegon Blackfyre theory) took this sample extract and its absence in the book as a hint that the sword is Blackfyre and it is a clue that Aegon is Blackfyre descendant.

[Curled Finger]

@Hos the Hostage...no, I don't think it anymore, it was one of those silly things you devise after the 1st read.   Your later statement placing Blackfyre with or very near Aegon is exactly where I believe Blackfyre to be.   As to the crowns it's as far fetched as anything else that could be entombed with Lyanna's bones, so why not?   It would be undeniable proof was all I thought.  I believe VS holds magical properties that we readers haven't yet seen.  I guess you certainly could include jewelry and adornments made of VS, too--they are all made in the same way.   Makes me wonder about those VS links in the maester's chains...

To Blackfyre...if Aegon is successful in his campaign BF will ultimately end up right where it started, in King's Landing.   I find that interesting given that I believe all the swords need to move North and this will become one of the very few of the rare swords to end up exactly where it started.   (Politically speaking that is.)  By virtue of being in KL, it will have moved North.   Who will take it farther I cannot say but it is an exciting prospect.   Honestly I expect all the swords to be found by the end of TWOW.  

I do tend to think BF will do more damage than good insofar as proving Aegon's Targness goes, still the Blackfyres had plenty of support in their day and may still.   Since that passage was cut from the preview chapters after being published I'm interested to see how GRRM exposes both the sword and Aegon.   A few years back everyone was convinced Aegon was false.   More recently I have seen more people convinced of his Targness.   Either way I think this "throw away" character has got people thinking.   TWOW will be very very interesting to read.  

[Lommy's Shade]

On April 8, 2016 at 11:04 PM, Curled Finger said:

I'm all for Barristan Selmy having a sword worthy of him.   What I haven't yet investigated is whether or not he had a sword when he met up with Dany.  I recall a dagger and a stick, but I have to go back to be sure.

I don't think Selmy took a sword with him. Here's what he told Dany after he unmasked himself...

Quote

“I flung my sword at Joffrey’s feet and have not touched one since. Only from the hand of my queen will I accept a sword again.” “As you wish.” Dany took the sword from Brown Ben and offered it hilt first. The old man took it reverently. “Now kneel,” she told him, “and swear it to my service.”

Considering that he believes that Dany is the true-born Queen of Westeros, I don't think he would lie to her.

[Curled Finger]

@Lommy's Shade, thanks.   I don't think a man, much less a knight, of Barristan Selmy's courage and honor would lie to his queen, either.  If you have a chance to go read what Modesty Lannister theorized it may not even have been important for him to have a sword at the point he met Dany.  However, I have to say I really appreciate all the research and quotes and answers you and everyone have taken the time to offer here.  This is one of those rare instance where I was not lost if I turned back!   Thanks.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

On 4/10/2016 at 10:28 PM, hiemal said:

Just Maid for the Stormlands, perhaps, and Florian's sword for the Riverlands?

To further confuse the issue, one of the descriptions (I thought I had dog-eared it in my last reread but now I can't find it- bah) of heroes and famous swords included Symeon Star-Eyes among the roster. I had previously only associated SSE with his double-bladed staff but it seems there could be another sword seeking a name.

If you ever find the ref for this, and PM it to me, I will be forever grateful.

FWIW my theory is that Symeon Star-Eyes and Ser Galadon are aliases of the same person at different points in his life. Part of my larger Sapphire Knight theory.

 

ETA: And I'm beginning to wonder if Florian the Fool is yet another alias.

[hiemal]

29 minutes ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

If you ever find the ref for this, and PM it to me, I will be forever grateful.

FWIW my theory is that Symeon Star-Eyes and Ser Galadon are aliases of the same person at different points in his life. Part of my larger Sapphire Knight theory.

 

ETA: And I'm beginning to wonder if Florian the Fool is yet another alias.

My theory was that Florian and Galladon were the same, so we seem to be thinking in parallel.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

2 hours ago, hiemal said:

My theory was that Florian and Galladon were the same, so we seem to be thinking in parallel.

Awesome. :-)

[hiemal]

4 hours ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

Awesome. :-)

That quote is driving me nuts... it's someone thinking about swords and they list Florian, the Dragonknight (I think), and SSE as wielding famous ones- iirc in contrast to a more ordinary one? I want to say it was a Bran chapter but. . .

Aemon's would be Dark Sister (I guess?) but both of the others really piqued my interest.

Anyhoo, my hunch on Florian is based pretty much solely on Dick Crabb's ribbing Brienne over a hypothetical match between his ancestor and Galadon: "... I should have used that sword..."

 

 

[Ser Knute]

On 4/8/2016 at 10:04 PM, Curled Finger said:

I love this.   Duck quick!   Let's try a different tact with this.   I'm thinking there may have been 2 VS swords in the pit.   Lamentation is melted and (insert name of missing sword here) is the 2nd sword.   Ser Wheaton realized his error in showing the sword and made up a name for himself.  Yes, I know that's lame, but I'm stuck on Lamentation being really and truly lost as in gone forever lost.   I found out that a Tyrone Wheaton was a Giants runningback about 15 years ago.   I don't know which team it is that GRRM roots for so when I couldn't find any Wheatons either, I figured it could be one of his little inside joke references.   If he's a Jets fan this is a mockery.   If he's a Giant's fan I don't know what it is.   Still, Tyrone is the only Wheaton I could come up with.  If I'm completely wrong and this is a real story guy, he is a knight.   I'm all for Barristan Selmy having a sword worthy of him.   What I haven't yet investigated is whether or not he had a sword when he met up with Dany.  I recall a dagger and a stick, but I have to go back to be sure.   I'm all for the Stormlands having a secret VS sword even if Ser Grampa himself doesn't have it.   You most cleverly used the terminology "mystery knight" in conjunction with our Ser Wheaton.    Could be that's exactly what he was.    But DAMN that was some fine detective work and wicked illustration.  

The only problem I have with any of it is there is no mention of Vigilance at Tumbleton or even a lousy passing description of the sword our mystery knight used.    It's downright weird that a VS sword is twice mentioned in the pits (where we assumed there was but 1 sword) and only once at Tumbleton (where we assume there were 2).   

I ask you, Modesty Lannister, do you have any idea at all who any of the 10 unnamed men at the 2nd battle at Tumbleton were?   (I sounded like a lawyer there to myself, sorry.)  I'm going to start my research by purchasing a hard copy of TPATQ.   Will report back with anything juicy.   You are a marvel, Modesty.      

GRRM is a NY Giants fan, WunWun is a play on words for #11, which is a reference to Phil Simms who was their QB during the SB in which if memory serves they were underdogs to the Broncos.... the game was close at the half (10-9 Broncos) but the Giants scored 26 unanswered points to close the game out and the Broncos lost handily.

The RB is actually Tyrone Wheatley, not Wheaton, who came from the University of Michigan, the Wolverines... now maybe there's some very obscure reference there I don't know, but we don't want to be basing theory off faulty information.

I'm with you on the idea that there might be 12 VS blades present in the story, with Dawn making the 13th, ala the Last Hero and his 12 companions, but it does seem at present that unless they change hands again, the likelihood that they'll all come together as a unified group is slim... sadly.

One thing that bothers me and I know this isn't particularly directly related to your topic... but if Blackfyre is in the hands of either Illyrio, JC, or Harry Strickland/GC, it seems to me that presenting it presents some problems.  Now of course many of the folks alive during the rebellions are aging or dead, but it seems to me problematic that Aegon appears out of nowhere, presumed dashed against a wall head-first and also wielding Blackfyre is surely going to raise more suspicion as to a Blackfyre pretender than not, especially in claiming to be Rhaegar's supposedly dead son.  There's going to be a lot of e'splainin' to do Lucy!  While I'd agree that GRRM can pull that off without it being too silly, I do wonder how the Great Houses are going to receive that and digest it... possibly a weird twist on the previous Dance where certain houses flock to him as Targaryen loyalists, but I also wonder if some Blackfyre loyalists will also do so.  Then you add in Dany and her Dragons and I think there's going to be a lot of indecision as well as a few that turn their cloaks as well.  I find it curious that news of Dany has reached the Red Keep and ports of call throughout Westeros, yet we've seen very little talk about allying with her.  I suspect that's been deliberate on GRRM's part and that will begin to transpire in TWOW, but surely it's being whispered about somewhere in Westeros, among Targ loyalists and perhaps even with former Blackfyre supporters.

I myself don't have any new guesses as to where the swords are, which is the primary focus of your topic, but I do feel that there's going to be some interesting conflicts as a result of these swords coming together if the theory I think you're getting at holds true.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

11 hours ago, hiemal said:

That quote is driving me nuts... it's someone thinking about swords and they list Florian, the Dragonknight (I think), and SSE as wielding famous ones- iirc in contrast to a more ordinary one? I want to say it was a Bran chapter but. . .

Aemon's would be Dark Sister (I guess?) but both of the others really piqued my interest.

Anyhoo, my hunch on Florian is based pretty much solely on Dick Crabb's ribbing Brienne over a hypothetical match between his ancestor and Galadon: "... I should have used that sword..."

 

 

Are you thinking of this Brienne chapter?

"When she slid Oathkeeper from the ornate scabbard, Brienne's breath caught in her throat. Black and red the ripples ran, deep within the steel. Valyrian steel, spell-forged. It was a sword fit for a hero. When she was small, her nurse had filled her ears with tales of valor, regaling her with the noble exploits of Ser Galladon of Morne, Florian the Fool, Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, and other champions. Each man bore a famous sword, and surely Oathkeeper belonged in their company, even if she herself did not. "You'll be defending Ned Stark's daughter with Ned Stark's own steel," Jaime had promised."

--A Feast for Crows - Brienne I

 

Unfortunately does not include SSE...I ran "Symeon" through Search of Ice and Fire and found no mention of him with a sword. :-(

 

However this does support Florian having a "famous sword." Which in turn supports the idea of an ancient dragonsteel sword in the Riverlands at some point.

[hiemal]

2 hours ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

Are you thinking of this Brienne chapter?

"When she slid Oathkeeper from the ornate scabbard, Brienne's breath caught in her throat. Black and red the ripples ran, deep within the steel. Valyrian steel, spell-forged. It was a sword fit for a hero. When she was small, her nurse had filled her ears with tales of valor, regaling her with the noble exploits of Ser Galladon of Morne, Florian the Fool, Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, and other champions. Each man bore a famous sword, and surely Oathkeeper belonged in their company, even if she herself did not. "You'll be defending Ned Stark's daughter with Ned Stark's own steel," Jaime had promised."

--A Feast for Crows - Brienne I

 

Unfortunately does not include SSE...I ran "Symeon" through Search of Ice and Fire and found no mention of him with a sword. :-(

 

However this does support Florian having a "famous sword." Which in turn supports the idea of an ancient dragonsteel sword in the Riverlands at some point.

It is not impossible. but I remember being surprised because I thought it was the first Galadon reference that wasn't from Brienne (showing that his fame was not confined to Tarth, Nimble Dick's ignorance notwithstanding).

Perhaps I've reached the sad point when deciphering ASoIaF has begun invading my dreams and I imagined it?

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

I'm gonna start an ancient knight/ancient sword thread, don't want to further derail this one.

 

[Curled Finger]

19 hours ago, Ser Knute said:

GRRM is a NY Giants fan, WunWun is a play on words for #11, which is a reference to Phil Simms who was their QB during the SB in which if memory serves they were underdogs to the Broncos.... the game was close at the half (10-9 Broncos) but the Giants scored 26 unanswered points to close the game out and the Broncos lost handily.

The RB is actually Tyrone Wheatley, not Wheaton, who came from the University of Michigan, the Wolverines... now maybe there's some very obscure reference there I don't know, but we don't want to be basing theory off faulty information.

I'm with you on the idea that there might be 12 VS blades present in the story, with Dawn making the 13th, ala the Last Hero and his 12 companions, but it does seem at present that unless they change hands again, the likelihood that they'll all come together as a unified group is slim... sadly.

One thing that bothers me and I know this isn't particularly directly related to your topic... but if Blackfyre is in the hands of either Illyrio, JC, or Harry Strickland/GC, it seems to me that presenting it presents some problems.  Now of course many of the folks alive during the rebellions are aging or dead, but it seems to me problematic that Aegon appears out of nowhere, presumed dashed against a wall head-first and also wielding Blackfyre is surely going to raise more suspicion as to a Blackfyre pretender than not, especially in claiming to be Rhaegar's supposedly dead son.  There's going to be a lot of e'splainin' to do Lucy!  While I'd agree that GRRM can pull that off without it being too silly, I do wonder how the Great Houses are going to receive that and digest it... possibly a weird twist on the previous Dance where certain houses flock to him as Targaryen loyalists, but I also wonder if some Blackfyre loyalists will also do so.  Then you add in Dany and her Dragons and I think there's going to be a lot of indecision as well as a few that turn their cloaks as well.  I find it curious that news of Dany has reached the Red Keep and ports of call throughout Westeros, yet we've seen very little talk about allying with her.  I suspect that's been deliberate on GRRM's part and that will begin to transpire in TWOW, but surely it's being whispered about somewhere in Westeros, among Targ loyalists and perhaps even with former Blackfyre supporters.

I myself don't have any new guesses as to where the swords are, which is the primary focus of your topic, but I do feel that there's going to be some interesting conflicts as a result of these swords coming together if the theory I think you're getting at holds true.

Hiya Ser Knute, welcome.  1st off you are absolutely right about Wheatley and that was as close as I could come to Wheaton.  Sorry for crossing my names over.   My city is delirious over the Rams coming home and outside of the business the stadium has brought to my work I don't care.   I prefer to immerse myself in fricking outrageous fantasy stories with morbid political overtones in my leisure.     I love it that you can appreciate the pretty glaring math with regard to the swords and absolutely in reference to TLH.   We've seen cycles and echoes of history repeating itself and though I don't know if I expect all 12 to make it to my choice for TLH, I do think they will all head North.  I will stress echoes of the past as things parallel events but don't match exactly.  I am confident that the swords are a big deal in this story, maybe even the show.  

All things related to Blackfyre are relevant here, Ser.   I think if the Blackfyres actually had any real support in Westeros this Aegon wouldn't have to have been employed.   The rebellions were so long ago really who is left to care one way or the other?   Targs, on the other hand are far fresher in memory and attaching one's cause to the Targs is a far better idea.   There are still Targ supporters who will latch on to Aegon even if they don't really believe just to get rid of Cersei and Stannis.  Tywin did a lousy job in the Riverlands and I expect they will throw in with absolutely anyone to get rid of Cersei.   I hope Stannis has the opportunity to become a real contender for the IT as I think a 2nd Baratheon/Targaryan showdown would be boss.   Who knows?   Maybe Aegon will get a whole lot more support than any of us imagine and will take his show all the way to the North.   Aegon actually has quite a bit to offer the story on that front.   I'm not sure the smallfolk or Tyrells (or houses like the Tyrells) would understand the inference of possessing Blackfyre.    It is the conqueror's sword first and I imagine that is how the majority of folks will perceive it.   As I say, who is even around to remember the rebellions and taint on the sword?   I don't see anyone actually revealing Vary's long game here.  There will probably be hints that the discerning reader will pick up on, but not the masses in story. 

And it is downright strange there have been no whispers of longing, support or even real curiosity in Westeros for Dany.   We know people know about her.   Perhaps she is known and discounted as being only a child.   Why aren't the Maesters talking about her?   I understand why Cersei wouldn't be talking about her being so distracted with her plots against everyone who would be her best allies, but the rest of Westeros should be.  I have to agree with you and blame it on GRRM being deliberately mum.   However, I wonder what Dany will think when she hears about Blackfyre?  Certainly she is acquainted with its history.  She knows a little something about VS swords as she promised one to Jorah.  I'm not giving up hope on that even by a circuitous route.   More to your idea about conflict because of, in spite of and as a result of the swords being found, revealed, claimed and moving.   I hope you will join us when we get around to talking about who will wield them.   It's always a pleasure to read your thoughts on things.  Thanks Man. 

[Ser Knute]

3 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Hiya Ser Knute, welcome.  1st off you are absolutely right about Wheatley and that was as close as I could come to Wheaton.  Sorry for crossing my names over.   My city is delirious over the Rams coming home and outside of the business the stadium has brought to my work I don't care.   I prefer to immerse myself in fricking outrageous fantasy stories with morbid political overtones in my leisure.     I love it that you can appreciate the pretty glaring math with regard to the swords and absolutely in reference to TLH.   We've seen cycles and echoes of history repeating itself and though I don't know if I expect all 12 to make it to my choice for TLH, I do think they will all head North.  I will stress echoes of the past as things parallel events but don't match exactly.  I am confident that the swords are a big deal in this story, maybe even the show.  

All things related to Blackfyre are relevant here, Ser.   I think if the Blackfyres actually had any real support in Westeros this Aegon wouldn't have to have been employed.   The rebellions were so long ago really who is left to care one way or the other?   Targs, on the other hand are far fresher in memory and attaching one's cause to the Targs is a far better idea.   There are still Targ supporters who will latch on to Aegon even if they don't really believe just to get rid of Cersei and Stannis.  Tywin did a lousy job in the Riverlands and I expect they will throw in with absolutely anyone to get rid of Cersei.   I hope Stannis has the opportunity to become a real contender for the IT as I think a 2nd Baratheon/Targaryan showdown would be boss.   Who knows?   Maybe Aegon will get a whole lot more support than any of us imagine and will take his show all the way to the North.   Aegon actually has quite a bit to offer the story on that front.   I'm not sure the smallfolk or Tyrells (or houses like the Tyrells) would understand the inference of possessing Blackfyre.    It is the conqueror's sword first and I imagine that is how the majority of folks will perceive it.   As I say, who is even around to remember the rebellions and taint on the sword?   I don't see anyone actually revealing Vary's long game here.  There will probably be hints that the discerning reader will pick up on, but not the masses in story. 

And it is downright strange there have been no whispers of longing, support or even real curiosity in Westeros for Dany.   We know people know about her.   Perhaps she is known and discounted as being only a child.   Why aren't the Maesters talking about her?   I understand why Cersei wouldn't be talking about her being so distracted with her plots against everyone who would be her best allies, but the rest of Westeros should be.  I have to agree with you and blame it on GRRM being deliberately mum.   However, I wonder what Dany will think when she hears about Blackfyre?  Certainly she is acquainted with its history.  She knows a little something about VS swords as she promised one to Jorah.  I'm not giving up hope on that even by a circuitous route.   More to your idea about conflict because of, in spite of and as a result of the swords being found, revealed, claimed and moving.   I hope you will join us when we get around to talking about who will wield them.   It's always a pleasure to read your thoughts on things.  Thanks Man. 

I've been a big sports fan for most of my life, so I'm a trove of useless/useful trivia/facts...

 

I agree with you that the swords have too much underlying significance to the story for them not to have some deeper meaning, else why would GRRM bother naming them or giving them some magical properties?  In that case just the types of swords should suffice...(I.e., bastard sword, long sword etc).  I have a hard time believing it'll be a straight parallel like Nan's version of TLH, but quite similar surely.  This time the steel won't break from the sheer cold.

With respect to Blackfyre... I agree that the masses probably wouldn't catch the inference, but I do suspect that someone will raise the issue.  The sword has been absent from Targ hands and Targ rule for so long that someone with historical knowledge would surely see its re-emergence as odd, not quite making sense.  I do agree that it'll likely be something only discussed or raised as an issue in small circles, but it'd be really interesting to see someone have to squirm under questioning from someone with sufficient knowledge of its history.

In terms of loyalists, I really only mean that it'll be interesting from the reader's perspective as to whom allies with whom.  For example, I forsee the Tyrell/Lannister alliance disintegrating and through timing for the Tyrells to ally with Aegon, mainly because they've been loyal Targ supporters in the past and will likely do so again, only the rub will be is he true?  When Dany comes they may realize they've jumped the gun yet again, as they have the entire series in allying first with Renly, then the Lannisters.  The only issue I see is possibly that Dorne beats them to the punch.  I suspect JC is going to use/seek a marriage alliance with an otherwise tentative ally, rather than wasting such on likely and willing allies.  That puts Arianne in a position to be sought after as a likely bride for either Aegon or JC, though I suspect JC will try hard not to have himself be part of a marriage pact, because of his Greyscale and because such a pact might be weakened if his demise is on the near horizon, which he should know it is.

I'll try to do some sleuthing of my own on some of these other swords... do we have a count as to how many we know are present in-story versus how many need to re-emerge/be found?

I don't have my World book here with me... have to grab that next time I'm at my sister's.

[Curled Finger]

12 minutes ago, Ser Knute said:

I've been a big sports fan for most of my life, so I'm a trove of useless/useful trivia/facts...

 

I agree with you that the swords have too much underlying significance to the story for them not to have some deeper meaning, else why would GRRM bother naming them or giving them some magical properties?  In that case just the types of swords should suffice...(I.e., bastard sword, long sword etc).  I have a hard time believing it'll be a straight parallel like Nan's version of TLH, but quite similar surely.  This time the steel won't break from the sheer cold.

With respect to Blackfyre... I agree that the masses probably wouldn't catch the inference, but I do suspect that someone will raise the issue.  The sword has been absent from Targ hands and Targ rule for so long that someone with historical knowledge would surely see its re-emergence as odd, not quite making sense.  I do agree that it'll likely be something only discussed or raised as an issue in small circles, but it'd be really interesting to see someone have to squirm under questioning from someone with sufficient knowledge of its history.

In terms of loyalists, I really only mean that it'll be interesting from the reader's perspective as to whom allies with whom.  For example, I forsee the Tyrell/Lannister alliance disintegrating and through timing for the Tyrells to ally with Aegon, mainly because they've been loyal Targ supporters in the past and will likely do so again, only the rub will be is he true?  When Dany comes they may realize they've jumped the gun yet again, as they have the entire series in allying first with Renly, then the Lannisters.  The only issue I see is possibly that Dorne beats them to the punch.  I suspect JC is going to use/seek a marriage alliance with an otherwise tentative ally, rather than wasting such on likely and willing allies.  That puts Arianne in a position to be sought after as a likely bride for either Aegon or JC, though I suspect JC will try hard not to have himself be part of a marriage pact, because of his Greyscale and because such a pact might be weakened if his demise is on the near horizon, which he should know it is.

I'll try to do some sleuthing of my own on some of these other swords... do we have a count as to how many we know are present in-story versus how many need to re-emerge/be found?

I don't have my World book here with me... have to grab that next time I'm at my sister's.

Good, you can be the Jets/Giants go to guy!   You should have seen the looks on the faces of my coworkers when I asked if there was Giants or Jets player 10 - 15 years ago named Wheat, Wheatly, Wheaton or Warren.   They were so disappointed when I explained about the magic sword.  

Heck yes Blackfyre's reemergence will be odd, but you have to admit it does fit pretty handily into the whole Aegon plot.  For all I know busting out with Blackfyre could be a secret message to all the descendants of the Blackfyres or eunics or merchants.  But yeah, Aegon's supporters are going to be in for quite a time when Dany comes to town.   Dumbasses.  Hehehehe I can just see the Tyrells having to become acquainted with the Martells and Sands.   That will be fun, thanks for giving me that to ponder!  I have a friend, dornishdame, who is a very careful researcher who just happens to really dig the whole Dorne story line.   Imagine that with a handle like dornishdame, right?   She sees Arienne with Aegon, hands down. Still, there is pressure on Jon Connington to marry as well.   Maybe he can marry a baby so he won't have to be around her.  Just sayin'. 

As to the swords we know where Oathkeeper, Longclaw, Heartsbane, Nightfall, Red Rain and Lady Forlorn are, absolutely.   That's 6.   We have some strong theories on the whereabouts of Widows Wail, Dark Sister and Blackfyre.  That's 3, takes us to 9.   We need to know where Vigillance (the Hightower sword), Truth (but why is this even on the list?) and Orphan-Maker are.  That's 3 and completes our 12 VS swords.  So it's basically half present and accounted for and half missing.   When I began this topic I was sure Vigilance was still with the Hightowers, but if you get a chance to read the whole thread your mind may get changed on that, too.  I'm sure Brightroar and Lamentation are not returning to the story.  I would love to hear anything you can come up with.  

[Ser Knute]

28 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Good, you can be the Jets/Giants go to guy!   You should have seen the looks on the faces of my coworkers when I asked if there was Giants or Jets player 10 - 15 years ago named Wheat, Wheatly, Wheaton or Warren.   They were so disappointed when I explained about the magic sword.  

Heck yes Blackfyre's reemergence will be odd, but you have to admit it does fit pretty handily into the whole Aegon plot.  For all I know busting out with Blackfyre could be a secret message to all the descendants of the Blackfyres or eunics or merchants.  But yeah, Aegon's supporters are going to be in for quite a time when Dany comes to town.   Dumbasses.  Hehehehe I can just see the Tyrells having to become acquainted with the Martells and Sands.   That will be fun, thanks for giving me that to ponder!  I have a friend, dornishdame, who is a very careful researcher who just happens to really dig the whole Dorne story line.   Imagine that with a handle like dornishdame, right?   She sees Arienne with Aegon, hands down. Still, there is pressure on Jon Connington to marry as well.   Maybe he can marry a baby so he won't have to be around her.  Just sayin'. 

As to the swords we know where Oathkeeper, Longclaw, Heartsbane, Nightfall, Red Rain and Lady Forlorn are, absolutely.   That's 6.   We have some strong theories on the whereabouts of Widows Wail, Dark Sister and Blackfyre.  That's 3, takes us to 9.   We need to know where Vigillance (the Hightower sword), Truth (but why is this even on the list?) and Orphan-Maker are.  That's 3 and completes our 12 VS swords.  So it's basically half present and accounted for and half missing.   When I began this topic I was sure Vigilance was still with the Hightowers, but if you get a chance to read the whole thread your mind may get changed on that, too.  I'm sure Brightroar and Lamentation are not returning to the story.  I would love to hear anything you can come up with.  

Oh I read it all, very informative and lots of good points put forth.  It's hard for me because I've always felt the Hightowers were pretty loyal to the Targaryen rule.  Considering too that they're currently supposed to be studying spells up in that High Tower I find it hard to buy in totally that they're in league with the Maesters, though there are likely arguments in favor of such a scenario, and I do believe the Maesters have an agenda as potulated by Barbrey Dustin.

So what we're kind of left with is a scenario like Ned with Dawn as it pertains to the dance and the battle(s) of Tumbleton.  Did the Dustin leader acquire Vigilance and return it or keep it for himself?  Or, did someone snatch it for themselves, to either keep or sell?  Or even yet still, could it have been melted down by dragonfire and just be a lump of unforged steel?  I tend to think that it being melted is unlikely.  Yet, Roddy the Ruin died too after killing Bryndon & Ormund Hightower... so unless another Dustin was present it's unlikely the Dustins claimed it as a war prize.  Ser Hobert Hightower was a cousin to Ormund so there's a possibility that he retrieved or took possession of Vigilance, and that when the Hightowers are introduced into the story-current, that blade's whereabouts will be revealed.  

Truth - Yes it's hard to figure with this one... but perhaps there's a connection here with the Rogare's via a sell sword company considering Moredo eventually gathered an army to fight against Lys.  He seems to have paid for this army mostly so there could be a tie in to the GC, The Second Sons, etc.

Orphan-Maker - House Roxton could yet make an appearance.  They're a Reach house owing fealty to the Tyrells whom we really haven't seen much of, with respect to their bannermen and individual badasses, like we have others, particularly the northern armies and the armies of the westerlands under the Lannisters.

I'm also wondering if as a result of magic having a resurgence in the world if the Qohorik might be sought out to commission a couple of blades?  Afterall, they claim to know the secrets, have the spells and are rumored to still be sacrificing babies in the forging of their replica-ish VS, all they're really missing is dragonfire to duplicate the Valyrian process.  While I'd agree that this might be a stretch, it is possible, though the original swords and their names probably have significance, rather than it being the case that our heroes simply have VS blades of any sort, otherwise we could include Caggo's Arakh.

Good food for thought...

[Mike Scott]

My personal theory is that Blackfyre is in a chest in Littlefinger's castle in the Fingers. waiting for the right time for him to produce it and prove that he has Targaryen ancestry.

[Seams]

I'm still in the early learning stages about sword lore, but is there any clue about the number of "known" swords - or swords expected for the grand finale - in the design of the crown for the King in the North?

The ancient crown of the Kings of Winter had been lost three centuries ago, yielded up to Aegon the Conqueror when Torrhen Stark knelt in submission. What Aegon had done with it no man could say. Lord Hoster's smith had done his work well, and Robb's crown looked much as the other was said to have looked in the tales told of the Stark kings of old; an open circlet of hammered bronze incised with the runes of the First Men, surmounted by nine black iron spikes wrought in the shape of longswords. Of gold and silver and gemstones, it had none; bronze and iron were the metals of winter, dark and strong to fight against the cold.

(ACoK, Catelyn)

 

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

4 hours ago, Seams said:

I'm still in the early learning stages about sword lore, but is there any clue about the number of "known" swords - or swords expected for the grand finale - in the design of the crown for the King in the North?

The ancient crown of the Kings of Winter had been lost three centuries ago, yielded up to Aegon the Conqueror when Torrhen Stark knelt in submission. What Aegon had done with it no man could say. Lord Hoster's smith had done his work well, and Robb's crown looked much as the other was said to have looked in the tales told of the Stark kings of old; an open circlet of hammered bronze incised with the runes of the First Men, surmounted by nine black iron spikes wrought in the shape of longswords. Of gold and silver and gemstones, it had none; bronze and iron were the metals of winter, dark and strong to fight against the cold.

(ACoK, Catelyn)

 

Not counting the recently-forged Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail,

counting the debatably Lyseni sword Truth,

there have been 13 VS swords in Westeros.

 

The nine iron longswords on the Crown of Winter do seem quite significant, but likely in a different way than 13 (12 + 1) VS blades. First Men stuff rather than blood-of-the-dragon stuff. IMO.

[Curled Finger]

21 hours ago, Ser Knute said:

Oh I read it all, very informative and lots of good points put forth.  It's hard for me because I've always felt the Hightowers were pretty loyal to the Targaryen rule.  Considering too that they're currently supposed to be studying spells up in that High Tower I find it hard to buy in totally that they're in league with the Maesters, though there are likely arguments in favor of such a scenario, and I do believe the Maesters have an agenda as potulated by Barbrey Dustin.

So what we're kind of left with is a scenario like Ned with Dawn as it pertains to the dance and the battle(s) of Tumbleton.  Did the Dustin leader acquire Vigilance and return it or keep it for himself?  Or, did someone snatch it for themselves, to either keep or sell?  Or even yet still, could it have been melted down by dragonfire and just be a lump of unforged steel?  I tend to think that it being melted is unlikely.  Yet, Roddy the Ruin died too after killing Bryndon & Ormund Hightower... so unless another Dustin was present it's unlikely the Dustins claimed it as a war prize.  Ser Hobert Hightower was a cousin to Ormund so there's a possibility that he retrieved or took possession of Vigilance, and that when the Hightowers are introduced into the story-current, that blade's whereabouts will be revealed.  

Truth - Yes it's hard to figure with this one... but perhaps there's a connection here with the Rogare's via a sell sword company considering Moredo eventually gathered an army to fight against Lys.  He seems to have paid for this army mostly so there could be a tie in to the GC, The Second Sons, etc.

Orphan-Maker - House Roxton could yet make an appearance.  They're a Reach house owing fealty to the Tyrells whom we really haven't seen much of, with respect to their bannermen and individual badasses, like we have others, particularly the northern armies and the armies of the westerlands under the Lannisters.

I'm also wondering if as a result of magic having a resurgence in the world if the Qohorik might be sought out to commission a couple of blades?  Afterall, they claim to know the secrets, have the spells and are rumored to still be sacrificing babies in the forging of their replica-ish VS, all they're really missing is dragonfire to duplicate the Valyrian process.  While I'd agree that this might be a stretch, it is possible, though the original swords and their names probably have significance, rather than it being the case that our heroes simply have VS blades of any sort, otherwise we could include Caggo's Arakh.

Good food for thought...

You went all circuitous on me!   The Qohorik already made a couple of swords...but you know, I wonder if Tobho would be interested in a few more?   Or has perhaps already done this?   It's all speculation upthread, but what else can we do with the information we have at hand?   I like the clever reading that led to Vigilance being taken, but there is no mention of the sword at all in the passage.  We are never told that Vigilance was even lost to the Hightowers only that it hasn't been seen in a long time.    It's just a nice bit of supposition.  I'm pretty sure Lamentation ended up being that lump of misshapen steel that actually was melted down by dragon fire.    

Are the Roxtons even still around?   I looked and wasn't able to find anything on them.   I was thinking they were extinct.   But yes, seeing the Roxtons would actually give me hope for seeing this mysterious black blade.   What a name.    

I really do think Brightroar and Lamentation are gone.  Widows Wail and Oathkeeper replaced them.  This is the thing that convinced me the swords are far more important to the overall story.   That math just keeps adding up.    Though I'm not a fan of the Longclaw will be Lightbringer idea because it screws up my math, I can see how it would happen.   I still don't like it.   I think we need these 12 magic swords to protect the 1 Light Bringing magic sword.   Our named VS has a very specific purpose.   Their descriptions, sparse as they are, locations, origins in Westeros, families they are associated with--I think it all plays into The Others somehow and yes, I'm really stuck on the 10 we know of being paired up.   Look at the 2 on the Iron Islands, both spoils of war (presumably) and we don't even know where Nightfall may have originated.  Though, with a name like that I would expect it to tie into The Long Night. Maybe it was a Northern Sword originally.  (My crackpot for that is that is was the Blackwood's sword and that's only because it has a moonstone pommel and the only one I can trace a moonstone to is Bloodraven when he masqueraded  as Maynard Plumm.)

Now if all that wasn't bad enough we have Truth, a Lysenni sword listed as a Westerosi sword.   I would love a twist with Truth being with a sell sword company particularly since so many of us have believed Blackfyre was.   We may be on the right track with the wrong swords!   I can't figure out why there wasn't just a 12th sword in Westeros and this foreign steel needs to be included.   Why, why, why?

You've already thrown out 3 plausible ideas.  Thanks for that Ser Knute.  I am eager to hear anything else you come up with.