U.S. Politics: The Bipartisan Dismemberment of the VA

[lokisnow]

continue:

I'm going to bump an amazing piece of journalism that got ignored in the previous thread:

Unbelievably great article on the VA and the unholy cabal attempting to dismantle it for profit and ideology.

Anyone who has had a relative that benefited from the VA ought to read.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/marchaprilmay_2016/features/the_va_isnt_broken_yet059847.php?page=all

[BloodRider]

4 hours ago, lokisnow said:

continue:

I'm going to bump an amazing piece of journalism that got ignored in the previous thread:

Unbelievably great article on the VA and the unholy cabal attempting to dismantle it for profit and ideology.

Anyone who has had a relative that benefited from the VA ought to read.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/marchaprilmay_2016/features/the_va_isnt_broken_yet059847.php?page=all

I SEEN it!

Good article tho.

[Darzin]

So with the rise of Trump I've been thinking about the demographics of American politics and it seems something has to give somewhere. The Republican coalition is not viable in the long run there simply aren't enough younger generations of the demographics Republicans appeal to to maintain a party. The fact that older whiter voters tend to be more engaged has done wonders for them in local elections,off ballot races and rural states, but the total numbers are beginning to show just by how much more difficult it is for a Republican to win the presidency and that despite Republicans holding the house Democrats received more votes. All of this means that sooner or later in the  next 10 or 20 years there will have to be a political realignment of some sort. I have no idea what will happen, and I was wondering if any of you all have any ideas what will happen when the demographic pressures of the Republican party finally catch up to them. 

[ThinkerX]

1 hour ago, Darzin said:

So with the rise of Trump I've been thinking about the demographics of American politics and it seems something has to give somewhere. The Republican coalition is not viable in the long run there simply aren't enough younger generations of the demographics Republicans appeal to to maintain a party. The fact that older whiter voters tend to be more engaged has done wonders for them in local elections,off ballot races and rural states, but the total numbers are beginning to show just by how much more difficult it is for a Republican to win the presidency and that despite Republicans holding the house Democrats received more votes. All of this means that sooner or later in the  next 10 or 20 years there will have to be a political realignment of some sort. I have no idea what will happen, and I was wondering if any of you all have any ideas what will happen when the demographic pressures of the Republican party finally catch up to them. 

My take: The 'business lobby' of the republican party goes democrat, though not all at once.

A lot of not so well off democrats - especially those with careers imperiled by trade deals and immigration - go republican. 

Almost a class or caste based realignment: the democrats geared towards the upper castes and certain category's of immigrants and minorities, while the lower orders, including more established immigrants, flock towards the republicans.  Corporate democrats, populist republicans.  Take several years minimum to take effect.    

[lokisnow]

24 minutes ago, ThinkerX said:

My take: The 'business lobby' of the republican party goes democrat, though not all at once.

A lot of not so well off democrats - especially those with careers imperiled by trade deals and immigration - go republican. 

Almost a class or caste based realignment: the democrats geared towards the upper castes and certain category's of immigrants and minorities, while the lower orders, including more established immigrants, flock towards the republicans.  Corporate democrats, populist republicans.  Take several years minimum to take effect.    

I've actually read an article promoting this exact realignment theory it had charts and everything, and said this is the trend currently ongoing and he expected to take another fifteen to twenty years to complete.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

I've actually read an article promoting this exact realignment theory it had charts and everything, and said this is the trend currently ongoing and he expected to take another fifteen to twenty years to complete.

 Link?  Sad if true.  We need a viable third party and Trump and the Libertarians can do this.  I will not vote for them, but....

[lokisnow]

1 minute ago, GrapefruitPerrier said:

 Link?  Sad if true.  We need a viable third party and Trump and the Libertarians can do this.  I will not vote for them, but....

I can't find it, I can find a similar recent vox article from poly archly, but this was back in the fall. 

[ThinkerX]

Link?  Sad if true.  We need a viable third party and Trump and the Libertarians can do this.  I will not vote for them, but....

Permanent three party situation possible, but not likely.  Breakdown:

Republicans: Theocrats, libertarians, and Tea Party types. Paranoid, distrustful of government, especially 'socialism.'

Democrats: Urban types. Greens. Progressives.

'Corporate Party' - combination of upper echelons of current democratic party and 'business lobby' of the republicans.  Wholly owned and operated by corporations, corporate drones expected to vote the party line or else.

But again, not likely.

[Shryke]

2 hours ago, ThinkerX said:

My take: The 'business lobby' of the republican party goes democrat, though not all at once.

A lot of not so well off democrats - especially those with careers imperiled by trade deals and immigration - go republican. 

Almost a class or caste based realignment: the democrats geared towards the upper castes and certain category's of immigrants and minorities, while the lower orders, including more established immigrants, flock towards the republicans.  Corporate democrats, populist republicans.  Take several years minimum to take effect.    

Except the kind of people you are talking about already left the democratic party. The white lower class votes republican in good numbers already.

[ThinkerX]

17 hours ago, Shryke said:

Except the kind of people you are talking about already left the democratic party. The white lower class votes republican in good numbers already.

Shryke, I am saying the republican 'elite' is starting to have more in common with the democratic 'elite' than with their own base.  Hence, they combine.  Note that NAFTA was effectively bipartisan.  Obama, a democratic POTUS loathed by republicans, pushed the TPP.   Both elites love illegal immigrants, while most of their bases arguably do not - witness Trump.  Evil though his comments were, his statements on that resonated with a lot of people in both parties.  I figure its only a matter of time before the democratic elite and the republican elite merge, and go democrat.

That in turn will tick off a lot of democrats further down the food chain - the ones who are having their pay cut and jobs outsourced - talking once supposedly secure white collar jobs, the ones being replaced by H1 whatever visa's. 

[Shryke]

34 minutes ago, ThinkerX said:

Shryke, I am saying the republican 'elite' is starting to have more in common with the democratic 'elite' than with their own base.  Hence, they combine.  Note that NAFTA was effectively bipartisan.  Obama, a democratic POTUS loathed by republicans, pushed the TPP.   Both elites love illegal immigrants, while most of their bases arguably do not - witness Trump.  Evil though his comments were, his statements on that resonated with a lot of people in both parties.  I figure its only a matter of time before the democratic elite and the republican elite merge, and go democrat.

That in turn will tick off a lot of democrats further down the food chain - the ones who are having their pay cut and jobs outsourced - talking once supposedly secure white collar jobs, the ones being replaced by H1 whatever visa's. 

They haven't though. He's pretty much loathed by most people except a large but non-majority chunk of the GOP.

There's no way the GOP elite move over because the democratic elite won't be able to compromise enough on the business agenda given how their coalition is formed.

[Martell Spy]

 

Quote

 

Shryke, I am saying the republican 'elite' is starting to have more in common with the democratic 'elite' than with their own base.  Hence, they combine.  Note that NAFTA was effectively bipartisan.  Obama, a democratic POTUS loathed by republicans, pushed the TPP.   Both elites love illegal immigrants, while most of their bases arguably do not - witness Trump.  Evil though his comments were, his statements on that resonated with a lot of people in both parties.  I figure its only a matter of time before the democratic elite and the republican elite merge, and go democrat.

That in turn will tick off a lot of democrats further down the food chain - the ones who are having their pay cut and jobs outsourced - talking once supposedly secure white collar jobs, the ones being replaced by H1 whatever visa's. 

 

 

 

 

It is perhaps true that elites of both parties like undocumented workers. However, they like them precisely because they are undocumented and can be paid sub minimum wages. Assuming this is how elites think, then they likely love the status quo and current locked down congress as it keeps undocumented immigrants as second class citizens. The goal of leftists is to legalize them. And then get both them and everyone else strong unions and high minimum wages. If you haven't noticed, minimum wage increases are sweeping the country. And it's leftist activists and unions doing this. They are doing this instead going after undocumented immigrants and voting Trump/Cruz.

If that nationalist garbage played well to the Democratic base, then there'd be Democratic politicians serving it. Leftist concerns about undocumented workers usually revolve around attempts to turn them into permanent second class citizens, such as Bush's plan that let them work but at sub wages. I believe this is why Sanders voted against an immigration bill.

But yeah, if GOP elites want to join the Democratic party they're going to have to get cool with unions and the minimum wage, especially with the current party trends and young voter trends. 

 

 

[ThinkerX]

1 hour ago, Martell Spy said:

 

 

 

 

It is perhaps true that elites of both parties like undocumented workers. However, they like them precisely because they are undocumented and can be paid sub minimum wages. Assuming this is how elites think, then they likely love the status quo and current locked down congress as it keeps undocumented immigrants as second class citizens. The goal of leftists is to legalize them. And then get both them and everyone else strong unions and high minimum wages. If you haven't noticed, minimum wage increases are sweeping the country. And it's leftist activists and unions doing this. They are doing this instead going after undocumented immigrants and voting Trump/Cruz.

If that nationalist garbage played well to the Democratic base, then there'd be Democratic politicians serving it. Leftist concerns about undocumented workers usually revolve around attempts to turn them into permanent second class citizens, such as Bush's plan that let them work but at sub wages. I believe this is why Sanders voted against an immigration bill.

But yeah, if GOP elites want to join the Democratic party they're going to have to get cool with unions and the minimum wage, especially with the current party trends and young voter trends. 

 

 

Kind of missed the point.  Yes, the republican elite going democrat would break up the democratic coalition.  We see signs of this already with Sanders - Clinton is in very tight with big finance, which the Sanders crowd doesn't care for.

The democratic rank and file - the groups you cited - are either going to press for concessions the 'new elite' won't care for, or they'll go republican.  Republican union workers.  Oxymoron now, but common enough decades ago.  Maybe due for a comeback.

But it'll take years, maybe decades before it comes about.

 

[Shryke]

6 minutes ago, ThinkerX said:

Kind of missed the point.  Yes, the republican elite going democrat would break up the democratic coalition.  We see signs of this already with Sanders - Clinton is in very tight with big finance, which the Sanders crowd doesn't care for.

The democratic rank and file - the groups you cited - are either going to press for concessions the 'new elite' won't care for, or they'll go republican.  Republican union workers.  Oxymoron now, but common enough decades ago.  Maybe due for a comeback.

But it'll take years, maybe decades before it comes about.

No, this is dumb. Because the people who support Sanders are not the kind of people who will put up with the GOP's bullshit.

Again, the white working class people you are probably thinking about here already left the Democratic Party for the most part. Almost all of the rest of the Democratic coalition hates the GOP with good reason. What does the GOP have to offer them? Nothing.

[ThinkerX]

1 hour ago, Shryke said:

No, this is dumb. Because the people who support Sanders are not the kind of people who will put up with the GOP's bullshit.

Again, the white working class people you are probably thinking about here already left the Democratic Party for the most part. Almost all of the rest of the Democratic coalition hates the GOP with good reason. What does the GOP have to offer them? Nothing.

Shryke, again you miss the point.  When the GOP elite leaves, that will transform the remainder of the GOP.  And, no, we are thinking of different groups of white democrats.  You are thinking of the ones that already left; I am thinking of the ones you believe would never, under any circumstances, abandon the democratic party.  A profound realignment.

[Darzin]

But why would those people jump ship? I don't see the Republican party offering, a higher minimum wage, or free college, or universal healthcare. Those are the things driving Sanders supporters and they're getting there, the Democratic party is moving left, the fight for 15 movement is gaining traction, support for gay marriage is now standard. The people who support Sanders are winning sure Clinton may be a bit to moderate and corporate for them but overall her policies are not that different. As long as the Democratic party stays on it's trajectory I don't see them leaving especially since many Republicans now favor abolishing the minimum wage and social security.

[ThinkerX]

46 minutes ago, Darzin said:

But why would those people jump ship? I don't see the Republican party offering, a higher minimum wage, or free college, or universal healthcare. Those are the things driving Sanders supporters and they're getting there, the Democratic party is moving left, the fight for 15 movement is gaining traction, support for gay marriage is now standard. The people who support Sanders are winning sure Clinton may be a bit to moderate and corporate for them but overall her policies are not that different. As long as the Democratic party stays on it's trajectory I don't see them leaving especially since many Republicans now favor abolishing the minimum wage and social security.

This is the sort of realignment that happens maybe every fifty years.  Sixty years ago, the democratic party was the one filled with KKK types, and the republican party was a different animal.

 

My contention is that class will be the dominating factor in the realignment.

[Shryke]

1 hour ago, ThinkerX said:

This is the sort of realignment that happens maybe every fifty years.  Sixty years ago, the democratic party was the one filled with KKK types, and the republican party was a different animal.

 

My contention is that class will be the dominating factor in the realignment.

The Republicans party doesn't want to fight for the lower class though. Not the establishment and not the base.

You just keep talking about a realignment like it's a fucking function of the alignment of the stars and so is predestined and not explaining why it would actually occur.

[sologdin]

On 4/7/2016 at 8:49 PM, BloodRider said:

I SEEN it!

Good article tho.

that 501(c)(4) belongs to the peakoch family. two boys now. well, men. guess you could call them human.  they're such good boys.

[BloodRider]

18 minutes ago, sologdin said:

that 501(c)(4) belongs to the peakoch family. two boys now. well, men. guess you could call them human.  they're such good boys.

Is that an X-Files reference?  If so, I approve.