The seed is strong! The story of two boys.

[watcher of the night]

The conclusion of this thread is based on two simple observations.

 

The first observation is that ”the seed is strong” as we are told by the dying Jon Arryn. Lsya thought it about Sweetrobin but we later find out that it was about Robert's bastard who all have their father's eye and hair. However, this observation holds for every major family as all of them has very characteristic features, which seem to be inherited over hundreds of generations. It is safe to assume that these features have to be dominant otherwise they would have been lost long ago. Also note that very few families practicing a close inbreeding like the Targaryens yet these feature survive, so inbreeding cannot be the answer. It is not to say that each and every Starks looks like a prototipic Stark but most of them. Also it is the most unlikely that a Baratheon would look like a Lannister (cough, cough, Joff and Tommen) or a Stark would look like a Martell.

 

The second observation is the story of Syrio Forel:

“On the day I am speaking of, the first sword was newly dead, and the Sealord sent for me. Many bravos had come to him, and as many had been sent away, none could say why. When I came into his presence, he was seated, and in his lap was a fat yellow cat. He told me that one of his captains had brought the beast to him, from an island beyond the sunrise. ‘Have you ever seen her like she asked of me.
“And to him I said, ‘Each night in the alleys of Braavos I see a thousand like him,’ and the Sealord laughed, and that day I was named the first sword.”
Arya screwed up her face. “I don’t understand.”
Syrio clicked his teeth together. “The cat was an ordinary cat, no more. The others expected a fabulous beast, so that is what they saw. How large it was, they said. It was no larger than any other cat, only fat from indolence, for the Sealord fed it from his own table. What curious small ears, they said. Its ears had been chewed away in kitten fights. And it was plainly a tomcat, yet the Sealord said ‘her,’ and that is what the others saw. Are you hearing?”
Arya thought about it. “You saw what was there.”
“Just so. Opening your eyes is all that is needing. The heart lies and the head plays tricks with us, but the eyes see true.”

 

Ok, so let say we have two boys. One has the Stark look: lean boy with a long face and grey eyes. The other one has the Targ look: silver/gold hair with violet eyes. Which families do they belong to?

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

3 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

The conclusion of this thread is based on two simple observations.

 

The first observation is that ”the seed is strong” as we are told by the dying Jon Arryn. Lsya thought it about Sweetrobin but we later find out that it was about Robert's bastard who all have their father's eye and hair. However, this observation holds for every major family as all of them has very characteristic features, which seem to be inherited over hundreds of generations. It is safe to assume that these features have to be dominant otherwise they would have been lost long ago.

But consider this: a person has a mommy and a daddy ('cept for Anakin Skywalker, allegedly). Say, a Stark marries a Tully, and some of their kids look like mom, some look like dad. Or, say, Targaryen marries a Martell, and they have two children, one looks Valyrian, the other one Dornish. A Baratheon marries a Florent, and the offspring is blessed with Baratheon hair and Florent ears. The kid can look like his dad, or his mom, it doesn't raise any eyebrows, neither in real world nor in the Seven Kingdoms.

You surely noticed that nobody even thought of questioning the pedigree of Joffy and his siblings for a very long time?

3 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

Ok, so let say we have two boys. One has the Stark look: lean boy with a long face and grey eyes.

I'd say one of his parents sure as hell was a Stark.

3 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

The other one has the Targ look: silver/gold hair with violet eyes.

Which coincidentally is the Blackfyre look as well, as the difference between a Targaryen and a Blackfyre is mainly in the sigil.

[RedShirt47]

"The seed is Strong" comes from Ned's reseach into Baratheon's family tree. Every generation of Baratheon had that look, so their seed was strong. The statement does not apply to all Westerosi families, nor even to all Westerosi Noble families.

Ned applies this research to Robert and finds all his bastards follow the family tree history and so he had a hypothesis and tested it and found it held. With no evidence against it he was fairly sure that his logic was sound. Cersei then proved it when confronted.

Ned's children are a mix. Robb and Sansa have the Tully look. Arya and Bran have the Stark look. Rhaegar has two children, one looks Targaryen and one look Martellish. Nobody comments on how odd this is, so seems natural from children to take looks from both parents except in certain families where The Seed is Strong.

[Macgregor of the North]

1 hour ago, RedShirt47 said:

"The seed is Strong" comes from Ned's reseach into Baratheon's family tree. Every generation of Baratheon had that look, so their seed was strong. The statement does not apply to all Westerosi families, nor even to all Westerosi Noble families.

Ned applies this research to Robert and finds all his bastards follow the family tree history and so he had a hypothesis and tested it and found it held. With no evidence against it he was fairly sure that his logic was sound. Cersei then proved it when confronted.

Ned's children are a mix. Robb and Sansa have the Tully look. Arya and Bran have the Stark look. Rhaegar has two children, one looks Targaryen and one look Martellish. Nobody comments on how odd this is, so seems natural from children to take looks from both parents except in certain families where The Seed is Strong.

It is refreshing to see somebody with sense saying there is actually a Tully look. I spent God knows how much time on another thread trying tell people that lol.

Arya is the only child of Neds who actually takes after the Starks. Unless it turns out Jon is actually Neds then that makes two.

The rest have the Tully look.  

[Dorian Martell]

9 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

It is refreshing to see somebody with sense saying there is actually a Tully look. I spent God knows how much time on another thread trying tell people that lol.

Arya is the only child of Neds who actually takes after the Starks. Unless it turns out Jon is actually Neds then that makes two.

The rest have the Tully look.  

Jon is Ned's child. Jon was raised by Ned, with Robb, Bran and Rickon as brothers and Sansa and Arya as Sisters. Parentage is irrelevant 

[239JMFL34109]

8 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

Jon is Ned's child. Jon was raised by Ned, with Robb, Bran and Rickon as brothers and Sansa and Arya as Sisters. Parentage is irrelevant 

Yeah i agree. I think if R+L=J then it is a challenge to Jon identity. Does being someone else's biological son define him any more than if he was ned's define who he is as a person? or Does how he was raise define him? or is it the choices he makes? Does coming back from the dead make him a monster? or etc.....

Also the point above about the eyes seeing true is that in real life ( just as readers trying to find support for a theory btw) it is not our eyes that deceive us but our head misinterpreting what we see or our heart wanting to see something. 

[Alaynsa Starne]

1 hour ago, RedShirt47 said:

Ned's children are a mix. Robb and Sansa have the Tully look. Arya and Bran have the Stark look.

Actually, just a small correction, Bran looks like Cat. He has red hair and blue eyes. It's one of the reasons Cat was so insecure about Jon: all of her sons resembled the Tully side of the family, and only Arya resembled Ned. Jon looked more a Stark than any of her boys. 

As to the OP, we can assume that Jon is the son of a Stark, but not just because he has Ned's features. We assume he is a Stark because he was raised in a Stark household and resembles certain family members. However, not all of his features are exclusively Stark. Dark hair, long faces, and grey eyes are common. Sandor has dark hair and grey eyes, Waymar Royce has some Stark traits, etc. Someone who was vaguely familiar with the Stark family probably wouldn't look at Jon on the street and think "That kid is a Stark." People see him as a Stark because they expect to see him as a Stark because they already know which family he is affiliated with.

Additionally, Targaryen features are not exclusively Targ. They're ethnic features of Valyria, which is why others in Westeros and Essos have silver-blonde hair and/or purple eyes. If people expect Aegon to be the son of Rhaegar, they're going to look at him and see Rhaegar even if the similarities between the two men are only superficial. 

Long story short: Subjective opinions change perception. 

[239JMFL34109]

8 minutes ago, Alaynsa Starne said:

Actually, just a small correction, Bran looks like Cat. He has red hair and blue eyes. It's one of the reasons Cat was so insecure about Jon: all of her sons resembled the Tully side of the family, and only Arya resembled Ned. Jon looked more a Stark than any of her boys. 

As to the OP, we can assume that Jon is the son of a Stark, but not just because he has Ned's features. We assume he is a Stark because he was raised in a Stark household and resembles certain family members. However, not all of his features are exclusively Stark. Dark hair, long faces, and grey eyes are common. Sandor has dark hair and grey eyes, Waymar Royce has some Stark traits, etc. Someone who was vaguely familiar with the Stark family probably wouldn't look at Jon on the street and think "That kid is a Stark." People see him as a Stark because they expect to see him as a Stark because they already know which family he is affiliated with.

Additionally, Targaryen features are not exclusively Targ. They're ethnic features of Valyria, which is why others in Westeros and Essos have silver-blonde hair and/or purple eyes. If people expect Aegon to be the son of Rhaegar, they're going to look at him and see Rhaegar even if the similarities between the two men are only superficial. 

Long story short: Subjective opinions change perception. 

YEP 

We are told that one ship master? grand admiral? of cersei's looks like rhaegar. One of his kids could easily have all the features of fageon. But people are told he is Aegon so that when they look at him they expect aegon and see it instead of a kid with uncommon but not rare features. 

[Alaynsa Starne]

4 minutes ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

YEP 

We are told that one ship master? grand admiral? of cersei's look like rhaegar. One of his kids could easily have all the features of fageon. But people are told he is Aegon so that when they look at him they expect aegon and see it instead of a kid with uncommon but not rare features. 

You're referring to Aurane Waters, who was the Master of Ships in AFFC and stole Cersei's fleet after she was imprisoned.  Incidentally, he's the bastard of a Velaryon, an old Valyrian family. 

Essentially, Young Griff could be the lost Prince Aegon. He could also be an orphaned no one that Varys picked up from a brothel in Lys. We basically have no way to know beyond the -- admittedly suspect -- word of extraordinarily shady men.

[Macgregor of the North]

39 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

Jon is Ned's child. Jon was raised by Ned, with Robb, Bran and Rickon as brothers and Sansa and Arya as Sisters. Parentage is irrelevant 

Lol this was taken a bit to seriously, yes Ned raised Jon and all that jazz so he is his father but in the context we were talking it was just meant that out of Cat and Neds children Arya is the only one who has the Stark looks and Neds other children, WITH Cat to be clear, have the Tully look. 

 

[239JMFL34109]

6 minutes ago, Alaynsa Starne said:

You're referring to Aurane Waters, who was the Master of Ships in AFFC and stole Cersei's fleet after she was imprisoned.  Incidentally, he's the bastard of a Velaryon, an old Valyrian family. 

Essentially, Young Griff could be the lost Prince Aegon. He could also be an orphaned no one that Varys picked up from a brothel in Lys. We basically have no way to know beyond the -- admittedly suspect -- word of extraordinarily shady men.

Yep thanks on that i suck at spelling!!!

Honestly i think Martin is going to give us the clue on that but never come right out and say with faegon. 

[Alaynsa Starne]

Just now, 239JMFL34109 said:

Yep thanks on that i suck at spelling!!!

Honestly i think Martin is going to give us the clue on that but never come right out and say with faegon. 

Pretty much what I'm hoping for. Never knowing for sure would be a really interesting emotional point for Dany and JonCon, and Young Griff as well if we see a lot of him. This is ASOIAF, after all. It's not about answers, but about interesting characters. Internal strife like Young Griff's true identity is the making of internal conflict gold. 

[Mick of House Guinness]

2 hours ago, RedShirt47 said:

The seed is Strong" comes from Ned's reseach into Baratheon's family tree. Every generation of Baratheon had that look, so their seed was strong. The statement does not apply to all Westerosi families, nor even to all Westerosi Noble families.

Actually Ned's research establishes only that Baratheon black hair and blue eyes overcomes Lannister blonde and green. This is also true for the mother's of Robert's known bastards but unknown bastards may not have the distinctive Baratheon look.

[239JMFL34109]

1 minute ago, Mick of House Guinness said:

Actually Ned's research establishes only that Baratheon black hair and blue eyes overcomes Lannister blonde and green. This is also true for the mother's of Robert's known bastards but unknown bastards may not have the distinctive Baratheon look.

A baratheon and Tully might generally lead to red head children 

[Ser Knute]

32 minutes ago, Mick of House Guinness said:

Actually Ned's research establishes only that Baratheon black hair and blue eyes overcomes Lannister blonde and green. This is also true for the mother's of Robert's known bastards but unknown bastards may not have the distinctive Baratheon look.

How do you figure?  Robert and Cersei had no children together.  The Baratheon lineage tome that Ned used for his research covers far more than the Lannister union, of which there are no offspring... and yet throughout the history covered in that book, ALL Baratheons are black of hair, etc.  Even when married to the Targaryens the traits hold true.  Now I'd agree that this is likely more toward plot-device than it is a true representation of genetic inheritance as per the real world... however, unless the Baratheons previously married into the Lannisters (I don't have my Worldbook here with me) your statement is incorrect as it pertains to Robert and Cersei.

[239JMFL34109]

1 hour ago, Ser Knute said:

How do you figure?  Robert and Cersei had no children together.  The Baratheon lineage tome that Ned used for his research covers far more than the Lannister union, of which there are no offspring... and yet throughout the history covered in that book, ALL Baratheons are black of hair, etc.  Even when married to the Targaryens the traits hold true.  Now I'd agree that this is likely more toward plot-device than it is a true representation of genetic inheritance as per the real world... however, unless the Baratheons previously married into the Lannisters (I don't have my Worldbook here with me) your statement is incorrect as it pertains to Robert and Cersei.

i seem to remember him looking for a specifically at some lannister Baratheon unions. I thought it was more "hey  we don't get genetics but black haired parent + blonde haired parent = Black haired child. "

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

1 hour ago, Ser Knute said:

How do you figure?  Robert and Cersei had no children together.  The Baratheon lineage tome that Ned used for his re however, unless the Baratheons previously married into the Lannisters (I don't have my Worldbook here with me) your statement is incorrect as it pertains to Robert and Cersei.

They had, several times, that's what Ned found in the aforementioned book.

It wouldn't do just to say that "the Baratheons have black hair", that's common knowledge, and it's equally common knowledge that the Lannisters have gold hair. The question was, what'll happen if the trademarked and patented black meets the trademarked and patented gold ("always he found the gold yielding before the coal"). That was not common knowledge, because that did not happen often enough for people to observe a pattern, one needed to specifically search for it.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

On Thursday, 7 April 2016 at 11:12 PM, watcher of the night said:

Ok, so let say we have two boys. One has the Stark look: lean boy with a long face and grey eyes. The other one has the Targ look: silver/gold hair with violet eyes. Which families do they belong to?

Stark and Targ, respectively. Forgive me if I'm being dense, but what's your point?

[Philokles]

6 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Stark and Targ, respectively. Forgive me if I'm being dense, but what's your point?

I think that he is saying fAegon is Rhaegar's son, and Jon is Ned's, because they would then look like their father.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

On 4/7/2016 at 0:15 PM, Alaynsa Starne said:

Pretty much what I'm hoping for. Never knowing for sure would be a really interesting emotional point for Dany and JonCon, and Young Griff as well if we see a lot of him. This is ASOIAF, after all. It's not about answers, but about interesting characters. Internal strife like Young Griff's true identity is the making of internal conflict gold. 

It's not about answers?  No one told me that.  Why am I wasting so much time on this website then?  Going through internal strife now....