Does Tywin have any bastards?

[239JMFL34109]

1 hour ago, Seaworth'sShipmate said:

Possibly but not many if any at all.

Tywin seems to businesslike and dutiful to indulge in sex compulsivly. Once in a blue moon sure, but idk if any bastards.

Tyrion is the who has bastards if anyone does. How is it that he whores as much as he does and no bastards?

Contraception seems to not exist in Westeros, or be somewhat ineffective if it does

But that is his public face. In private a man who is all "don't bring that whore to the capital!!" only in secret he sleeps with that same whore.

Also it really only take one time and there is some implication that the very same secret passage Tyrion uses to help kill his father is the same one tywin himself used to bring whores up to his office. 

any of this concrete? no

[norwaywolf123]

We know that Aerys and Tywin used to be besties when they were young. We know that Aerys was a ladies man when he was young, maybe Tywin was too? 

[Lion of the West]

23 hours ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

Where do we see he didn't know of it? also Varys implies that a previous hand made use of the tunnel to bring whores into the tower of the hand. It is speculation that it is tywin cause tywin and tyrion seem to be a lot alike. Also yeah it was totally arranged by varys. it is just like how Tyrion wanted to meet the clansmen of the vale and etc... he wanted to give tyrion the chance at he wanted to do since the beginning of the series.  

We don't know of them having any bastards and other people having bastards doesn't prove anything but i got a feeling that tywin was very much like tyrion and cersei in that he has a problem with addictions with sex, booze, and power. 

Tyrion does seem, at least to me, to be aware at all of the many tunnels within Maegor's Holdfast, just like the vast majority of Westerosi. And the fact that he as my memory recalls, don't make use of these tunnels either before Varys shows them to him hints to me that Tyrion didn't know much about them. Even less so about the tunnel that lead to the resident of his father.

I don't doubt that a previous Hand built this tunnel or made use of it, but there have been other Hands except Tywin who cared about their image and reputation. I would be re-evaluate my position if it can be shown that there was not a brothel in the same house as Chataya's before she moved in. But most likely the Street of Silk has been there for some time and its not the first brothel to be held in that house. Or so I assume with the information that I have as of now.

[239JMFL34109]

16 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

Tyrion does seem, at least to me, to be aware at all of the many tunnels within Maegor's Holdfast, just like the vast majority of Westerosi. And the fact that he as my memory recalls, don't make use of these tunnels either before Varys shows them to him hints to me that Tyrion didn't know much about them. Even less so about the tunnel that lead to the resident of his father.

I don't doubt that a previous Hand built this tunnel or made use of it, but there have been other Hands except Tywin who cared about their image and reputation. I would be re-evaluate my position if it can be shown that there was not a brothel in the same house as Chataya's before she moved in. But most likely the Street of Silk has been there for some time and its not the first brothel to be held in that house. Or so I assume with the information that I have as of now.

Oh sorry i thought you meant that Tywin didn't know about it? cause yeah Tyrion didn't know but i assumed that tywin did. Varys was there when tywin was hand before so it seemed like he was trying to make tyrion think it was tywin and i think he was telling the truth. Does not mean it is true but i think it is true. 

[norwaywolf123]

Tywin probably have lots of bastards in King's landing, the Westerlands and maybe on Dragonstone if he went their with his buddy Aerys?

[Nevets]

Any bastards Tywin had are not only unacknowledged but unknown.  Simply proving that they are Tywin's bastards would likely prove an insurmountable obstacle, much less getting acknowledged.  I think any chance of them getting Castlery Rock is non-existent    Ultimately, they won't play any role in the story. 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

On 8/4/2016 at 2:44 AM, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Impotent means you can't get it up. The incident with Shae suggests that he can.

He is hardly the only noble who does not have bastards, and considering how discreet he is then it should not really be a problem. Jon Arryn, Mace Tyrell, Hoster Tully, Doran Martell, Stannis Baratheon all seem to have zero bastards. Maybe they are all infertile, but I doubt it.

I kinda feel this is a bit of a wrong assumption about noble men of middle ages, that they were some sort of sex freaks (just like the women were all pure and chaste).

Many men took their marriage vows seriously and had no other women than their wives. Those who married young probably even got to their wedding nights as virgins (kinda Robb's case). Gosh, some could have even been either shy (Quentyn), having their own principles about sex (Jon Snow) or were too religious (like Jamie from Outlander, who is catholic, and virgin until 22). It's not like an obligation for men to be sexually active if they didn't want to.

We know Jon Arryn did have some fertility problems, so I won't discuss him, and we know nothing about Mace Tyrell in his youth, but we know Doran is pretty much the same as his son Trystane, so he probably thought sex wasn't something he would lose his head for and didn't do more than having some occasional whore a couple of times, or none at all. Stannis is Stannis, and Hoster Tully seemed to be the kind of man who wouldn't go to a brothel like his son apparently does (according to Cat).

I mean, look at what kind of man Brandon was, and how Benjen and Ned are. Also, compare Robert with his other two brothers who seem to believe celibacy and commitment are a serious thing. Looks like the guys having bastards are the odd ones, not the other way around.

[VeryLittleGravitasIndeed]

On ‎4‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 8:24 PM, 239JMFL34109 said:

But that is his public face. In private a man who is all "don't bring that whore to the capital!!" only in secret he sleeps with that same whore.

Also it really only take one time and there is some implication that the very same secret passage Tyrion uses to help kill his father is the same one tywin himself used to bring whores up to his office. 

any of this concrete? no

Tywin didn't forbid Tyrion from whoring - he just forbade him from taking Shae to prevent emotional entanglements. There's no evidence that Tywin's against whores in general. He's just very careful about PR which is a good thing in any politician.

[Humble Maester]

I guess "facts" we know about Tywin regarding to this are:

-It was widely thought that Tywin and Joanna had a loving marriage. Even though they did not live in the same place all the way through, the nature of their marriage could imply that Tywin would at least had second thoughts about "cheating" on the woman he loved.

-About the tunnel to Chataya's: "The tunnel was dug for another King's Hand, whose honor would not allow him to enter such a house openly. Chataya has closely guarded the knowledge of its existence." For the most part I think we should take whatever Varys claims with a pinch of salt, but I do think this implies that its at least possible that the tunnel was built while Chataya's was there. Though it is possible it existed before that too. Anyways this does not at least work against Tywin possibly having used the services of prostitutes.

-Important notice: Tywin was not against prostitution (he is no Stannis). He was against public use of prostitutes, especially the whole "girlfriend experience" Tyrion was going for. Discreet prostitution does not bring shame on the house Lannister, after all.

That is actually, at least in my mind, all we actually "know" that isn't complete guesswork. We really have scant knowledge about Tywin's sex life. It is possible that he had bastards but considering the kind of man he was otherwise (obsessed with the dignity of his house), I would think even if he had used the services of prostitutes that he would had make it as sure as possible that no unwanted children came out of it. It would be rather embarrassing for Tywin if a woman, like in Robert's case, was known to have his child. And he does have his distinct looks as well.

[239JMFL34109]

14 hours ago, VeryLittleGravitasIndeed said:

Tywin didn't forbid Tyrion from whoring - he just forbade him from taking Shae to prevent emotional entanglements. There's no evidence that Tywin's against whores in general. He's just very careful about PR which is a good thing in any politician.

Pretty sure he just said don't take that whore to the red keep or something of the like? i have to look. Tywin is always mindful of how tyrion actions would reflect on him. 

[TimJames]

Not every blond haired person is a secret Lannister!

I'm sure that if Tywin does have bastards, the whores who birthed them know to avoid drawing attention to it.

[norwaywolf123]

On 9.4.2016 at 11:47 PM, Nevets said:

Any bastards Tywin had are not only unacknowledged but unknown.  Simply proving that they are Tywin's bastards would likely prove an insurmountable obstacle, much less getting acknowledged.  I think any chance of them getting Castlery Rock is non-existent    Ultimately, they won't play any role in the story. 

If Genna knew about some she could lend legitmacy to a potential bastard. The bastard has to be a good well regarded commander to stand a chance its not easy being a bastards.

[norwaywolf123]

On 7.4.2016 at 10:22 PM, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Hired. 

I doubt he had kids though. I could see him forcing the women he's slept with to guzzle down moon tea

why a bastard has theire uses

[norwaywolf123]

On 11.4.2016 at 5:10 AM, TimJames said:

Not every blond haired person is a secret Lannister!

OFCOURCE

On 11.4.2016 at 5:10 AM, TimJames said:

I'm sure that if Tywin does have bastards, the whores who birthed them know to avoid drawing attention to it.

Why do you think whores must have birthed tywins bastards? "If he had any" Why not some noble lady? Maybe some Westerlord thought that since jaime is kingsguard and tyrion is a dwarf that if Tywin got their daughter pregnant that tywin would marry or atleest take care of the child?

[Eli Stark]

All dwarfs are bastards in their father's eyes.  So, yes.  He has at least one bastard.

[TimJames]

4 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Why do you think whores must have birthed tywins bastards? "If he had any" Why not some noble lady? Maybe some Westerlord thought that since jaime is kingsguard and tyrion is a dwarf that if Tywin got their daughter pregnant that tywin would marry or atleest take care of the child?

If Tywin was sleeping with noblewomen, then he'd make sure they were on a strict regimen of Moon Tea to ensure no embarrassing bastards are born. 

[Jon Fossoway]

Let's keep in mind that there is A LOT of Lannisters in the westerlands. You have the main branch that lives on the Rock, but there is also the Lannisters from Lannisport (Rosamund, Theomore) and their cousins and distant cousins (Lannys, Lantell, Lannets). They are all described as golden haired in the world book. There's a good chance that not all the blondes in the saga are descendants from Tywin but from these other blondies.

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 4/7/2016 at 0:25 PM, norwaywolf123 said:

We Know that Tywin is not a saint and that he does have sex with whores "Shae". So do you think he has any bastards around? If so does Tywin know about the bastards? Does any charecters know about Tywin's bastards like Genna or Kevan? Could one of Tywin's hypothetical bastards claim Casterly Rock? Maybe the Lannisters are not so pleased with Cersei running havoc and claiming everything. She even tried to claim Rosby for Tommen! What do you think?

http://joannalannister.tumblr.com/post/102520914486/secret-bastards

Possible Bastards

- Marei, a whore at Chataya's brothel in King's landing, http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Marei

- Sweet Donnel Hill, a brother of the Night's Watch, http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Donnel_Hill

- Others

 

 

Not Marei, Dancy.

[Seams]

I had a wicked thought a week or two ago: What if Shae was Tywin's daughter?

There would be the interesting irony of Cersei and Jaime's forbidden love now echoed in Tyrion's affair with a half-sister. (And Tyrion strangling Shae could add a whole new twist, so to speak, to the Valonqar prophecy.)

Shae ran away from home and became a camp follower because her father wanted to turn her into his kitchen wench and his whore. She ends up in Tywin's bed and dies there. If there is a father / daughter relationship there, it's a plot twist that has that "coming full circle" feel that GRRM likes.

Maybe Tywin commanded Tyrion to leave Shae behind when he sent Tyrion to King's Landing not because he was embarrassed that Tyrion would have a mistress, but because Tywin wanted to move in on Shae while Tyrion was gone.

A father / daughter relationship between Tywin and Shae could (somewhat) explain why Shae testified against Tyrion in his trial: her father ordered her to do it and/or promised her that she would finally be legitimized and/or promised that Tyrion would be allowed to go into exile and not be executed.

In the show, Tyrion and Bronn and Shae play a drinking game where they make guesses about each other's past. Shae tells Tyrion that he is wrong when he says that she must have been low born.

It's a creepy notion, but consistent with other creepy incest stuff in the plot.

P.S. I realize Shae had black hair, though. So that means we have to come up with a Baratheon origin theory for her.

[norwaywolf123]

On 7.4.2016 at 7:14 PM, LionoftheWest said:

Its possible but very unlikely. If Tywin arranged for Joy Hill to be married well, as far as bastards go, so if Tywin takes care of his missing brother's natural daughter, I don't see why he would kick out any of his own bastards that was aware of. Most likely however Tywin had no woman beside Joanna while she was alive and, this is what I think, may have declined a mistress or other woman of pleasure due to the experience with his father's mistress.

Question

Do we know about the social standing of Joy Hills mother? We know she was a commoner. But what kind of commoner was she? If Joy's mother Briony was the daughter of a rich merchant i think she would be better treated. If Joy Hill is supposed to marry into House Westerling might it help if she comes from merchant stock or the common elite as opposed to the bottom of society?

Definition of "commoner": one of the ordinary or common people, as opposed to the aristocracy or to royalty.

Sources:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Joy_Hill

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Briony

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/commoner