Tyrion's witnesses at the Purple Wedding trial - Myrish looking glasses!

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

Part 1 (of sorts): 

So, this is now a series. I'll try to point out the things that some of our beloved characters missed from their iconic exchanges, and what could've been if only they paid a little bit more attention to detail, or if they could reread their chapters.

Today, Tyrion is faced with his mortal enemy: Wine. Well, actually, it's being too drunk to pay attention, but you get the drift.

This is from Tyrion's happy wedding ceremony: (BTW, this series is a total quotefest. Beware).

Quote

“Lady Sansa.” Ser Garlan Tyrell stood beside the dais. “Would you honor me? If your lord consents?”
The Imp’s mismatched eyes narrowed. “My lady can dance with whomever she pleases.”
Perhaps she ought to have remained beside her husband, but she wanted to dance so badly... and Ser Garlan was brother to Margaery, to Willas, to her Knight of Flowers. “I see why they name you Garlan the Gallant, ser,” she said, as she took his hand.

First time Ser Garlan interacts with Tyrion is here. He asks if he can dance with the sad bride, and Tyrion consents. Garlan is really trying to be nice to Tyrion here, given that a: all the other people in the hall had the same oportunity Garlan had to invite Sansa for a dance and save Tyrion the embarassment of having her sit there all sad and danceless, but didn't, and b: Ser Garlan is Ollena Tyrell's grandson, and not such a fool as his father, so he should've known (perhaps even suggested, given his apparent affection with his brother Willas) of the match between Sansa and the heir to Highgarden. Regardless, he doesn't treat Sansa like the other Tyrells do; he still wishes her well. And, by extent, Tyrion. One flesh, one heart, one soul.

Quote

“A bride at her wedding should be more than well.” His voice was not unkind. “You seemed close to tears.”
“Tears of joy, ser.”
“Your eyes give the lie to your tongue.” Ser Garlan turned her, drew her close to his side. “My lady, I have seen how you look at my brother. Loras is valiant and handsome, and we all love him dearly... but your Imp will make a better husband. He is a bigger man than he seems, I think.”

Then, at the gift exchange, Ser Garlan jumps in to let Joffrey know just how much that book he just shredded was worth:

Quote

“Your Grace,” Ser Garlan Tyrell said. “Perhaps you did not know. In all of Westeros there were but four copies of that book illuminated in Kaeth’s own hand.”

Then, at the Purple Wedding:

First.: Garlan is seated next to Tyrion. Now, most people might find that offensive, because Tyrion might be the master of coin and the apparent heir to Casterly Rock, but he is still a stunted ugly dwarf, whom the king hates. I think this was a request from Garlan himself, to be seated next to Tyrion. I genuinely believe Garlan admired Tyrion for his Blackwater prowess. As shown:

Quote

He and Sansa had been seated far to the king’s right, beside Ser Garlan Tyrell and his wife, the Lady Leonette. A dozen others sat closer to Joffrey, which a pricklier man might have taken for a slight, given that he had been the King’s Hand only a short time past. Tyrion would have been glad if there had been a hundred.

And then, again, Garlan totally fanboys Tyrion:

Quote

“If I am ever Hand again, the first thing I’ll do is hang all the singers,” said Tyrion, too loudly.
Lady Leonette laughed lightly beside him, and Ser Garlan leaned over to say, “A valiant deed unsung is no less valiant.”
“The dark lord assembled his legions, they gathered around him like crows. And thirsty for blood they boarded their ships...”
“... and cut off poor Tyrion’s nose,” Tyrion finished.
Lady Leonette giggled. “Perhaps you should be a singer, my lord. You rhyme as well as this Galyeon.”
“No, my lady,” Ser Garlan said. “My lord of Lannister was made to do great deeds, not to sing of them. But for his chain and his wildfire, the foe would have been across the river. And if Tyrion’s wildlings had not slain most of Lord Stannis’s scouts, we would never have been able to take him unawares.”
His words made Tyrion feel absurdly grateful, and helped to mollify him as Galyeon sang endless verses about the valor of the boy king and his mother, the golden queen.

Now, a thing we all know: Littlefinger and the Queen of Thorns were in bed together. Imagine that. (Got to read this to know what I'm on about:)

 

Now that I've ruined your next meal, let me say why this is important:

Quote

When the door closed, Tyrion Lannister pulled himself up into the chair, sharpened a quill, and pulled a blank parchment. Who will speak for me? He dipped his quill in the inkpot.
The sheet was still maiden when Podrick Payne appeared, sometime later.

Garlan. Ser Garlan Tyrell will speak for you, Tyrion. He'll tell everyone that he was standing right at your side through it all, that he saw you didn't do it, that you're a man of worth and promise. He would, at least, if only you'd send for him.

Now, let's avaluate the Purple Wedding itself, as it happened, paying EXTRA attention on Ser Garlan's moves:

Quote

It was a relief when the musicians began to play. The tiny jousters led dog and sow from the hall, the guests returned to their trenchers of brawn, and Tyrion called for another cup of wine. But suddenly he felt Ser Garlan’s hand on his sleeve. “My lord, beware,” the knight warned. “The king.”
Tyrion turned in his seat. Joffrey was almost upon him, red-faced and staggering, wine slopping over the rim of the great golden wedding chalice he carried in both hands. “Your Grace,” was all he had time to say before the king upended the chalice over his head. The wine washed down over his face in a red torrent. It drenched his hair, stung his eyes, burned in his wound, ran down his cheeks, and soaked the velvet of his new doublet. “How do you like that, Imp?” Joffrey mocked.
Tyrion’s eyes were on fire. He dabbed at his face with the back of a sleeve and tried to blink the world back into clarity. “That was ill done, Your Grace,” he heard Ser Garlan say quietly.
“Not at all, Ser Garlan.” Tyrion dare not let this grow any uglier than it was, not here, with half the realm looking on. “Not every king would think to honor a humble subject by serving him from his own royal chalice. A pity the wine spilled.”
“It didn’t spill,” said Joffrey, too graceless to take the retreat Tyrion offered him. “And I wasn’t serving you, either.”
Queen Margaery appeared suddenly at Joffrey’s elbow. “My sweet king,” the Tyrell girl entreated, “come, return to your place, there’s another singer waiting.”
“Alaric of Eysen,” said Lady Olenna Tyrell, leaning on her cane and taking no more notice of the wine-soaked dwarf than her granddaughter had done. “I do so hope he plays us ‘The Rains of Castamere.’ It has been an hour, I’ve forgotten how it goes.”
“Ser Addam has a toast he wants to make as well,” said Margaery. “Your Grace, please.”
“I have no wine,” Joffrey declared. “How can I drink a toast if I have no wine? Uncle Imp, you can serve me. Since you won’t joust you’ll be my cupbearer.”
“I would be most honored.”
“It’s not meant to be an honor!” Joffrey screamed. “Bend down and pick up my chalice.” Tyrion did as he was bid, but as he reached for the handle Joff kicked the chalice through his legs. “Pick it up! Are you as clumsy as you are ugly?” He had to crawl under the table to find the thing. “Good, now fill it with wine.” He claimed a flagon from a serving girl and filled the goblet three-quarters full. “No, on your knees, dwarf.” Kneeling, Tyrion raised up the heavy cup, wondering if he was about to get a second bath. But Joffrey took the wedding chalice one-handed, drank deep, and set it on the table. “You can get up now, Uncle.”
His legs cramped as he tried to rise, and almost spilled him again. Tyrion had to grab hold of a chair to steady himself. Ser Garlan lent him a hand. Joffrey laughed, and Cersei as well. Then others. He could not see who, but he heard them.
“Your Grace.” Lord Tywin’s voice was impeccably correct. “They are bringing in the pie. Your sword is needed.”
“The pie?” Joffrey took his queen by the hand. “Come, my lady, it’s the pie.”
The guests stood, shouting and applauding and smashing their wine cups together as the great pie made its slow way down the length of the hall, wheeled along by a half-dozen beaming cooks. Two yards across it was, crusty and golden brown, and they could hear squeaks and thumpings coming from inside it.
Tyrion pulled himself back into his chair. All he needed now was for a dove to shit on him and his day would be complete. The wine had soaked through his doublet and smallclothes, and he could feel the wetness against his skin. He ought to change, but no one was permitted to leave the feast until the time came for the bedding ceremony. That was still a good twenty or thirty dishes off, he judged.
King Joffrey and his queen met the pie below the dais. As Joff drew his sword, Margaery laid a hand on his arm to restrain him. “Widow’s Wail was not meant for slicing pies.”
“True.” Joffrey lifted his voice. “Ser Ilyn, your sword!”
From the shadows at the back of the hall, Ser Ilyn Payne appeared. The specter at the feast, thought Tyrion as he watched the King’s justice stride forward, gaunt and grim. He had been too young to have known Ser Ilyn before he’d lost his tongue. He would have been a different man in those days, but now the silence is as much a part of him as those hollow eyes, that rusty chainmail shirt, and the greatsword on his back.
Ser Ilyn bowed before the king and queen, reached back over his shoulder, and drew forth six feet of ornate silver bright with runes. He knelt to offer the huge blade to Joffrey, hilt first; points of red fire winked from ruby eyes on the pommel, a chunk of dragonglass carved in the shape of a grinning skull.
Sansa stirred in her seat. “What sword is that?”
Tyrion’s eyes still stung from the wine. He blinked and looked again. Ser Ilyn’s greatsword was as long and wide as Ice, but it was too silverybright; Valyrian steel had a darkness to it, a smokiness in its soul. Sansa clutched his arm. “What has Ser Ilyn done with my father’s sword?”
I should have sent Ice back to Robb Stark, Tyrion thought. He glanced at his father, but Lord Tywin was watching the king.
Joffrey and Margaery joined hands to lift the greatsword and swung it down together in a silvery arc. When the piecrust broke, the doves burst forth in a swirl of white feathers, scattering in every direction, flapping for the windows and the rafters. A roar of delight went up from the benches, and the fiddlers and pipers in the gallery began to play a sprightly tune. Joff took his bride in his arms, and whirled her around merrily.
A serving man placed a slice of hot pigeon pie in front of Tyrion and covered it with a spoon of lemon cream. The pigeons were well and truly cooked in this pie, but he found them no more appetizing than the white ones fluttering about the hall. Sansa was not eating either. “You’re deathly pale, my lady,” Tyrion said. “You need a breath of cool air, and I need a fresh doublet.” He stood and offered her his hand. “Come.”
But before they could make their retreat, Joffrey was back. “Uncle, where are you going? You’re my cupbearer, remember?”
“I need to change into fresh garb, Your Grace. May I have your leave?”
“No. I like the look of you this way. Serve me my wine.”
The king’s chalice was on the table where he’d left it. Tyrion had to climb back onto his chair to reach it. Joff yanked it from his hands and drank long and deep, his throat working as the wine ran purple down his chin. “My lord,” Margaery said, “we should return to our places. Lord Buckler wants to toast us.”
“My uncle hasn’t eaten his pigeon pie.” Holding the chalice onehanded, Joff jammed his other into Tyrion’s pie. “It’s ill luck not to eat the pie,” he scolded as he filled his mouth with hot spiced pigeon. “See, it’s good.” Spitting out flakes of crust, he coughed and helped himself to another fistful. “Dry, though. Needs washing down.” Joff took a swallow of wine and coughed again, more violently. “I want to see, kof, see you ride that, kof kof, pig, Uncle. I want. ..” His words broke up in a fit of coughing.
Margaery looked at him with concern. “Your Grace?”
“It’s, kof, the pie, noth - kof, pie.” Joff took another drink, or tried to, but all the wine came spewing back out when another spate of coughing doubled him over. His face was turning red. “I, kof, I can’t, kof kof kof kof...” The chalice slipped from his hand and dark red wine went running across the dais.
“He’s choking,” Queen Margaery gasped.
Her grandmother moved to her side. “Help the poor boy!” the Queen of Thorns screeched, in a voice ten times her size. “Dolts! Will you all stand about gaping? Help your king!”
Ser Garlan shoved Tyrion aside and began to pound Joffrey on the back. Ser Osmund Kettleblack ripped open the king’s collar. A fearful high thin sound emerged from the boy’s throat, the sound of a man trying to suck a river through a reed; then it stopped, and that was more terrible still. “Turn him over!” Mace Tyrell bellowed at everyone and no one. “Turn him over, shake him by his heels!” A different voice was calling, “Water, give him some water!” The High Septon began to pray loudly. Grand Maester Pycelle shouted for someone to help him back to his chambers, to fetch his potions. Joffrey began to claw at his throat, his nails tearing bloody gouges in the flesh. Beneath the skin, the muscles stood out hard as stone. Prince Tommen was screaming and crying.
He is going to die, Tyrion realized. He felt curiously calm, though pandemonium raged all about him. They were pounding Joff on the back again, but his face was only growing darker. Dogs were barking, children were wailing, men were shouting useless advice at each other. Half the wedding guests were on their feet, some shoving at each other for a better view, others rushing for the doors in their haste to get away.
Ser Meryn pried the king’s mouth open to jam a spoon down his throat. As he did, the boy’s eyes met Tyrion’s. He has Jaime’s eyes. Only he had never seen Jaime look so scared. The boy’s only thirteen. Joffrey was making a dry clacking noise, trying to speak. His eyes bulged white with terror, and he lifted a hand... reaching for his uncle, or pointing... Is he begging my forgiveness, or does he think I can save him? “Noooo,” Cersei wailed, “Father help him, someone help him, my son, my son...”
Tyrion found himself thinking of Robb Stark. My own wedding is looking much better in hindsight. He looked to see how Sansa was taking this, but there was so much confusion in the hall that he could not find her. But his eyes fell on the wedding chalice, forgotten on the floor. He went and scooped it up. There was still a half-inch of deep purple wine in the bottom of it. Tyrion considered it a moment, then poured it on the floor.
Margaery Tyrell was weeping in her grandmother’s arms as the old lady said, “Be brave, be brave.” Most of the musicians had fled, but one last flutist in the gallery was blowing a dirge. In the rear of the throne room scuffling had broken out around the doors, and the guests were trampling on each other. Ser Addam’s gold cloaks moved in to restore order. Guests were rushing headlong out into the night, some weeping, some stumbling and retching, others white with fear. It occurred to Tyrion belatedly that it might be wise to leave himself.
When he heard Cersei’s scream, he knew that it was over.
I should leave. Now. Instead he waddled toward her.
His sister sat in a puddle of wine, cradling her son’s body. Her gown was tom and stained, her face white as chalk. A thin black dog crept up beside her, sniffing at Joffrey’s corpse. “The boy is gone, Cersei,” Lord Tywin said. He put his gloved hand on his daughter’s shoulder as one of his guardsmen shooed away the dog. “Unhand him now. Let him go.” She did not hear. It took two Kingsguard to pry loose her fingers, so the body of King Joffrey Baratheon could slide limp and lifeless to the floor.
The High Septon knelt beside him. “Father Above, judge our good King Joffrey justly,” he intoned, beginning the prayer for the dead. Margaery Tyrell began to sob, and Tyrion heard her mother Lady Alerie saying, “He choked, sweetling. He choked on the pie. It was naught to do with you. He choked. We all saw.”
“He did not choke.” Cersei’s voice was sharp as Ser Ilyn’s sword. “My son was poisoned.” She looked to the white knights standing helplessly around her. “Kingsguard, do your duty.”
“My lady?” said Ser Loras Tyrell, uncertain.
“Arrest my brother,” she commanded him. “He did this, the dwarf. Him and his little wife. They killed my son. Your king. Take them! Take them both!”

Okay, so, some notes:

Underlined is a little detailed I picked up: Margaery changed the names of the men proposing toasts, from Addam to Lord Buckler. Just a little point to go with the thread I quoted.

Now, about Garlan: Notice that he is standing in Tyrion's side/back the entire time. He shoved Tyrion aside to pound on Joffrey's chest, so he had to be close. He saw it all. He saw the serving man pour lemon cream on Tyrion's pigeon pie (why would a salty dish, with meat, have lemon cream on it? I would understand it if they squeezed a lemon on the pie, but lemon cream is a sweet/bitter thing, not to go with a salty dish. I think the poison was in this cream), and, most important, Ser Garlan saw that it wasn't Tyrion.

Now, to conclude:

• I don't think Ser Garlan would actually testify, because of his family's envolvement in it all (if the theories hold). So, even though he is the #1 man to call, I don't know...
• I don't think Tyrion would've called Ser Garlan, even if he remembered all this, because Ser Garlan is a Tyrell, and "Margaery was drinking from the same cup, as Lord Tyrell likes to remind us".
• Last time, when I talked about Catelyn, I said I didn't hold it against her. I hold this against Tyrion. He is a brilliant man, he shoud've seen a potential friendship here.

And, the most important of all:

Quote

“Is that your brother?” Sansa asked.
“It is, my lady,” said Ser Loras. “Garlan often trains against three men, or even four. In battle it is seldom one against one, he says, so he likes to be prepared.”
“He must be very brave.”
“He is a great knight,” Ser Loras replied. “A better sword than me, in truth, though I’m the better lance.”

Ser Garlan would've been able to fight the Mountain. Jaime says Loras is as good as he was when they were of an age, and Jaime also says he could defeat the Mountain if he still had his right hand. So, if Jaime > Gregor, and Loras = Jaime, and Garlan > Loras, then Garlan > Gregor. 

TL;DR: Garlan would've testified in Tyrion's favor. He would've probably fought against the Mountain too, and seems like he would win. If only Tyrion had asked him to.

So, tell me, what do you guys think? Could Tyrion have grown a rose in his friendship garden? Appreciate every comment!  

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

Quick side note: Ser Garlan is now the Lord of Brightwater Keep, as rewarded by Joffrey. Why aren't people calling him Lord Garlan? 

[John Suburbs]

14 hours ago, WilliamWesterosiWallace said:

snip

If Tyrion called Garlen to the stand, the best he could say is "No, I did not see him poison the chalice." To counter that, Cersei has all her witnesses to the fights that Tyrion had with Joffrey, the threats he's made against Joffrey and Cersei herself, and she even has Lady Merryweather testifying that she did see him reach into the chalice, plus Shae who says she overheard Tyrion and Sansa plot the whole thing.

I'm also thinking that, no matter how good a fighter Garlen is, he is no match for the mountain. He would most likely fight with sword and shield, so he wouldn't even have the extra reach that the Viper had with his spear, nor the ability to trip him up (nor the poison).

The only reason I can't put the poison in the lemon cream is that it would have to be deployed after the servant placed it on top of the pie, otherwise you risk poisoning a whole row of guests who would be served from the same bowl -- unless, of course, you bring yet another conspirator, the servant, into the plot. While this is certainly possible, it is more difficult than poisoning the pie itself. Note that the pie is served within seconds after the big pie is cut on the dais. This means the guests' pies are very close to the head table, most likely just behind it, during the entire ceremony. And who else is in the immediate area? Why, Lady O, of course, who should have no trouble at all tucking the crystal into the pie when everyone in the area is looking up at the pigeons.

And I'm no expert on medieval cuisine, but it strikes me that lemon cream on a pigeon pie isn't any stranger than sour cream on a meat pie or cream cheese on mincemeat.

But at least I think we can agree that the poison was not in the wine, it was in or on the pie, and therefore the target for the assassination was Tyrion, not Joffrey, yes? 

 

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

27 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

If Tyrion called Garlen to the stand, the best he could say is "No, I did not see him poison the chalice." To counter that, Cersei has all her witnesses to the fights that Tyrion had with Joffrey, the threats he's made against Joffrey and Cersei herself, and she even has Lady Merryweather testifying that she did see him reach into the chalice, plus Shae who says she overheard Tyrion and Sansa plot the whole thing.

I'm also thinking that, no matter how good a fighter Garlen is, he is no match for the mountain. He would most likely fight with sword and shield, so he wouldn't even have the extra reach that the Viper had with his spear, nor the ability to trip him up (nor the poison).

The only reason I can't put the poison in the lemon cream is that it would have to be deployed after the servant placed it on top of the pie, otherwise you risk poisoning a whole row of guests who would be served from the same bowl -- unless, of course, you bring yet another conspirator, the servant, into the plot. While this is certainly possible, it is more difficult than poisoning the pie itself. Note that the pie is served within seconds after the big pie is cut on the dais. This means the guests' pies are very close to the head table, most likely just behind it, during the entire ceremony. And who else is in the immediate area? Why, Lady O, of course, who should have no trouble at all tucking the crystal into the pie when everyone in the area is looking up at the pigeons.

And I'm no expert on medieval cuisine, but it strikes me that lemon cream on a pigeon pie isn't any stranger than sour cream on a meat pie or cream cheese on mincemeat.

But at least I think we can agree that the poison was not in the wine, it was in or on the pie, and therefore the target for the assassination was Tyrion, not Joffrey, yes? 

 

Later in ASOS, when Petyr tells us about the Joffrey murder, he specifically says that the gem was meant for the wine. It would dissolve in it, causing the person who drank it to also drink the dissolved crystal. Only Littlefinger never asks Sansa when did Joffrey die, because, if he did, he'd see that his poison wasn't used. Joffrey was to die during the bedding, when Margaery would be surrounded by other people, and safely away from the bad wine. 

About Ser Garlan: I don't think the Mountain is as invincible as he is described to be. Sandor, Jaime, (Loras, assuming he fancies himself better than Jaime), Oberyn, a lot of people think they're capable of defeating Gregor. The Mountain's biggest strength lies in the fact that he is 1. freakish huge, 2. freakish strong, and 3. absolutely terrifying. Hell, even Bronn thinks he could win against the Mountain, he just doesn't want to risk it. Gregor isn't a formidable fighter in his own right, he just uses his abnormal strength as an advantage. Garlan, on the other hand, is described by Loras as being "the better sword".

About Ser Garlan's testimony, I can tell one thing: 

Quote

After Pycelle came the procession, endless and wearisome. Lords and ladies and noble knights, highborn and humble alike, they had all been present at the wedding feast, had all seen Joffrey choke, his face turning as black as a Dornish plum. Lord Redwyne, Lord Celtigar, and Ser Flement Brax had heard Tyrion threaten the king; two serving men, a juggler, Lord Gyles, Ser Hobber Redwyne, and Ser Philip Foote had observed him fill the wedding chalice; Lady Merryweather swore that she had seen the dwarf drop something into the king’s wine while Joff and Margaery were cutting the pie; old Estermont, young Peckledon, the singer Galyeon of Cuy, and the squires Morros and Jothos Slynt told how Tyrion had picked up the chalice as Joff was dying and poured out the last of the poisoned wine onto the floor.
When did I make so many enemies? Lady Merryweather was all but a stranger. Tyrion wondered if she was blind or bought.

There are your snitches. Not a single one here has more weight in his voice than Garlan. Hell, even Shae could be dismissed by Garlan's testimony. Imagine this:

Quote

"Ser Garlan, tell us what you saw."

"I was next to Tyrion the entire time, he didn't do it. He is a noble, valiant man, and he didn't do it. I saw him when Joffrey poured wine on him, and I saw him fill it up. I was seated next to it all. He didn't poison the wine."

"So, Ser Garlan, if it wasn't Tyrion, who was it?"

"I don't know, Lord Tywin. Perhaps Sansa, or someone else. But the accused, Tyrion Lannister, is innocent."

Tell me: Oberyn already has it set in his mind that he'll say Tyrion is innocent (he poisoned Tywin, if the theory is true. His is probably the next trial.) and Tywin knows Cersei rigged the testimonies. I mean, look at this list! 

• Redwyne;
• Celtigar;
• Brax;
  • The above confirm only the threats.
• Serving men;
• A juggler;
• Gyles;
• Redwyne;
• Foote;
  • Saw Tyrion fill the cup. Didn't see poison.
• Merryweather;
  • Only she saw him put something in the cup. And, as we learn from AFFC, she is really into Cersei. So...
• Estermont;
• Pecledon;
• A singer from another continent;
• Two Slynts.
  • The above saw Tyrion pour the wine out of the cup. That was a weird move on Tyrion's part, and possibly a plothole to keep the whole pie poison thing hidden, but whatever.

All the bolded ones Tywin can know for a certainty are either bought or going with the flow. Redwynes are the wildcard here, but I think they were going with the Tyrell flow. Going with the flow nonetheless.

That makes two judges out of three, and Tyrion walks. Hell, Garlan's word might even make Mace Tyrell's mind, seeing that Garlan is his son and all.

So, yeah, Garlan's testimony has a much bigger weight than we can think. Besides, most of the testimonies above only confirmed Tyrion threats, not that he poisoned anything. 

Now, about the poisoned pie:

As seen above, Cersei seems to have some servants in her payroll. They testify against Tyrion, ergo, they testify in favor of Cersei's wish to see Tyrion un-alived. 

I think it'd be almost too easy for Cersei to approach a random servant and say to him "Hey, you. Come here. I love my brother Tyrion, and he saved us in the Blackwater. When you serve his pie, put this special lemon cream on top of it. I had it made just for the occasion. It's a family tradition, he'll know it came from me. Put it there, and NOT A WORD. Now go, the pie is being served."

Of course, the words can change, but the exchange above makes sense if you think about it. All Cersei would need is lemon cream (she made the wedding preps, she is the #1 person to get this sort of thing) and poison (Pycelle is her little bitch, therefore, he can get it). And there you have it, kinslaying pie. 

And, yes, I agree, the poison was 100% meant for Tyrion. Joff got in the way, and died (an hour earlier than planned) for it.

I'm no cook to know about the lemon. Just raised the question because, to me, it sounds strange. But, yeah, it could be a custom. I'm not sure.

[Isobel Harper]

8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

<snip>

I was about to message you, but I see you've already found this thread. 

8 hours ago, WilliamWesterosiWallace said:

Later in ASOS, when Petyr tells us about the Joffrey murder, he specifically says that the gem was meant for the wine. It would dissolve in it, causing the person who drank it to also drink the dissolved crystal. Only Littlefinger never asks Sansa when did Joffrey die, because, if he did, he'd see that his poison wasn't used. Joffrey was to die during the bedding, when Margaery would be surrounded by other people, and safely away from the bad wine.

The Strangler acts immediately.  Joffrey (or rather Tyrion) would have died within seconds/minutes (how long does it take to suffocate?) after consuming the poison, not an hour.  Or are you implying that LF planned a different drink/food being poisoned than was actually implemented?

[John Suburbs]

8 hours ago, WilliamWesterosiWallace said:

Later in ASOS, when Petyr tells us about the Joffrey murder, he specifically says that the gem was meant for the wine. It would dissolve in it, causing the person who drank it to also drink the dissolved crystal. Only Littlefinger never asks Sansa when did Joffrey die, because, if he did, he'd see that his poison wasn't used. Joffrey was to die during the bedding, when Margaery would be surrounded by other people, and safely away from the bad wine. 

 

I'm not sure I follow. Are you talking about after Margy and Joff are alone together in the bedding chamber? If that is the case, Margy will have to come up with a pretty convincing story as to why a perfectly healthy Joff entered the bedding chamber and then dropped dead a few moments later. If you are talking about the procession to the bedding chamber, both the bride and groom are stripped practically naked and then carried to the bedding chamber by the guests. Why would they expect Joff to be drinking wine at this point?

Also, if the wine was poisoned, it had to have happened during the cutting ceremony, a time when it is customary to toast the bride and groom. So there was no way anyone could possible think both Joff and Margy would not drink from the chalice at the ceremony's conclusion. And there would be no way to pin it on Tyrion because dozens of people would have been all around Joff and the chalice.

Littlefinger also tells Sansa that Tyrion handed his bride over to his fathers guards when he got bored with her. Littlefinger lies. He has to say something because otherwise the truth would go something like this: "Sorry sweetling, we meant to kill your husband but wound up killing the king instead. Now the whole world thinks you are a kingslayer. But don't worry, everything is going according to plan. Just do as I say and become a completely different person for the rest of your life and it will all work out."

We also had Balon Swann speaking kindly of Tyrion at the trial, which only served to set up the steady drip-drip of negative testimony that came after. All Garlen would be able to do is repeat what Swann said: "No, I did not see him do it, and no I don't believe he did." Neither man can testify that Tyrion did not in fact do it because it is impossible to prove a negative. So in the end, Garlen's nice words about Tyrion would have been no more helpful then Swann's.

But, yes, I do believe that Tywin knows Tyrion is being set up, which is why it was his plan for Tyrion to confess and then take the black. Tyrion didn't play along, so when he lost the trial by combat, Tywin had no choice but to sentence him to death. But even then, he still might have been planning for Tyrion to take the black. It doesn't appear that Tywin was just throwing that possibility out there because Tyrion was pointing a crossbow at him. He seems genuinely shocked that Tyrion actually shot him.

The only way you can have Cersei poisoning the pie that killed Joffrey and not realizing it in her own POVs later is she is in a state of complete denial. Also, if Cersei knew the pie was poisoned, then should would have jumped to her feet the moment Joffrey grabbed it. She would have done something, anything, to prevent him from eating it, or at the very least been in a state of panic the moment it touched his lips. She said and did nothing until after Joff fell to the ground. She had absolutely no idea the pie was poisoned.

 

 

 

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

7 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

I was about to message you, but I see you've already found this thread. 

The Strangler acts immediately.  Joffrey (or rather Tyrion) would have died within seconds/minutes (how long does it take to suffocate?) after consuming the poison, not an hour.  Or are you implying that LF planned a different drink/food being poisoned than was actually implemented?

During the bedding ceremony, the men carry the bride and the women carry the groom. So, in that moment, Joff would be given the oh-so-sweet poison. And die. Either that, or Margaery, who knows about the plan, would just not drink from the chalice that was poisoned. 

[John Suburbs]

5 hours ago, WilliamWesterosiWallace said:

During the bedding ceremony, the men carry the bride and the women carry the groom. So, in that moment, Joff would be given the oh-so-sweet poison. And die. Either that, or Margaery, who knows about the plan, would just not drink from the chalice that was poisoned. 

But Joff is being carried along and undressed by all these women, why would they expect him to still be drinking the wine? And who is carrying the chalice at this point? Won't he/she become the prime suspect? How does Tyrion take the blame for the regicide at this point? He will be nowhere near Joffrey or the chalice. As long as Tyrion is alive, Sansa's claim to Winterfell belongs to him, so gaining control of Sansa while she is still legally married is next to useless as far as LF is concerned, unless you think he is doing all of this out of the goodness of his heart and he has no interest in her claim at all.

 

 

[aryagonnakill#2]

The poison was in the wine, hence the name purple wedding.  When talking about the episode on HBO where it happened, GRRM called it the purple wedding saying that the wine was purple and the wine was very important.  Whether you think GRRM screwed up the poisoning or not, the poison was in the wine.

[Trogdor Targaryen]

It's only called the purple wedding out of universe. We could presume that was the intended vessel for the poison but it's not impossible that there were numerous plus at play. If it were the lemon sauce on the pie it could be done by informing a servant that it is Tyrions favorite dish but he has to have a certain variety due to what he can handle so must be served from a seperate dish than others. It's really not top different from the wild boat that killed Robert after he was served the strong wine.

 

Anyway, I always liked Garlan most out of the tyrells. I'm disappointed that he and Will as were left out of the show but at least George said that d&d will regret leaving them out. 

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

14 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I'm not sure I follow. Are you talking about after Margy and Joff are alone together in the bedding chamber? If that is the case, Margy will have to come up with a pretty convincing story as to why a perfectly healthy Joff entered the bedding chamber and then dropped dead a few moments later. If you are talking about the procession to the bedding chamber, both the bride and groom are stripped practically naked and then carried to the bedding chamber by the guests. Why would they expect Joff to be drinking wine at this point?

Also, if the wine was poisoned, it had to have happened during the cutting ceremony, a time when it is customary to toast the bride and groom. So there was no way anyone could possible think both Joff and Margy would not drink from the chalice at the ceremony's conclusion. And there would be no way to pin it on Tyrion because dozens of people would have been all around Joff and the chalice.

Littlefinger also tells Sansa that Tyrion handed his bride over to his fathers guards when he got bored with her. Littlefinger lies. He has to say something because otherwise the truth would go something like this: "Sorry sweetling, we meant to kill your husband but wound up killing the king instead. Now the whole world thinks you are a kingslayer. But don't worry, everything is going according to plan. Just do as I say and become a completely different person for the rest of your life and it will all work out."

We also had Balon Swann speaking kindly of Tyrion at the trial, which only served to set up the steady drip-drip of negative testimony that came after. All Garlen would be able to do is repeat what Swann said: "No, I did not see him do it, and no I don't believe he did." Neither man can testify that Tyrion did not in fact do it because it is impossible to prove a negative. So in the end, Garlen's nice words about Tyrion would have been no more helpful then Swann's.

But, yes, I do believe that Tywin knows Tyrion is being set up, which is why it was his plan for Tyrion to confess and then take the black. Tyrion didn't play along, so when he lost the trial by combat, Tywin had no choice but to sentence him to death. But even then, he still might have been planning for Tyrion to take the black. It doesn't appear that Tywin was just throwing that possibility out there because Tyrion was pointing a crossbow at him. He seems genuinely shocked that Tyrion actually shot him.

The only way you can have Cersei poisoning the pie that killed Joffrey and not realizing it in her own POVs later is she is in a state of complete denial. Also, if Cersei knew the pie was poisoned, then should would have jumped to her feet the moment Joffrey grabbed it. She would have done something, anything, to prevent him from eating it, or at the very least been in a state of panic the moment it touched his lips. She said and did nothing until after Joff fell to the ground. She had absolutely no idea the pie was poisoned.

Okay, point by point:

I don't think the bride and groom would stop drinking at the bedding. Why would they? It's not like they couldn't. Anyway, we can say for sure that the wine Joff drank, at that moment, wasn't poisoned. So it was in the pie. 

Yeah, Littlefinger isn't 100% lying about Tysha. I know Tyrion didn't voluntarily give his bride over, but he does say he didn't do anything to stop it, and later he even had a turn himself. (Seriously, I understand him not stopping his father giving her to his guards, but having her after that? That's just gross, man. You said you love her, at least respect her, goddamn.) 

Balon Swann's word means shit, all due respect. Garlan Tyrell is the son of one of the judges, a man of impeccable reputation. And, as I proposed up there, he could probably beat the Mountain in combat. And he KNOWS it wasn't Tyrion. He was, all the time, at Tyrion's side. Of course, I could be misreading it all, and Garlan was there to make sure Tyrion fell for it all. But, if that isn't the case, he'd be a hell of a witness. He isn't about to be bought by Cersei, marrying her is out of the question, he has Brightwater Keep so lands are fine by him, and he seems a really honorable man. He'd be on Tyrion's side, I think.

Tywin is an asshole, seriously. He totally knows it wasn't Tyrion. I mean, look at the testimonies! As I show in the OP, they are all either not saying shit about the wedding, or blatantly lying (Merryweather). The one thing that buggered Tyrion was turning the wine on the ground. Had he not done that, he could've drank it just fine, but for some reason he saw fit to spill it. But yes, Tywin knows that it wasn't Tyrion. I think there are only two reasons for Tywin to wish Tyrion to go to the NW:

1. He is Aerys's bastard, Tywin hates him, he shan't inherit the Rock, so on and so forth.

2. Most likely: He is a little piece of shit, whoring and drinking his life away. So, yeah, he can't get the Rock. Ever. 

Quote

“My uncle hasn’t eaten his pigeon pie.” Holding the chalice onehanded, Joff jammed his other into Tyrion’s pie. “It’s ill luck not to eat the pie,” he scolded as he filled his mouth with hot spiced pigeon. 

My theory is that Cersei told the bolded to Joffrey. She saw Tyrion would leave before the pie because he was bathed in wine, so she told Joff it is ill luck not to eat the pie, and voilá. Joff goes there, she hopes he'll make Tyrion eat the goddamned pie, but instead he eats it himself. And, we don't know because Cersei doesn't think about it in her POV's, it could be she went into a shock-induced catatonia and couldn't save her kid. It does happen. 

 

1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

The poison was in the wine, hence the name purple wedding.  When talking about the episode on HBO where it happened, GRRM called it the purple wedding saying that the wine was purple and the wine was very important.  Whether you think GRRM screwed up the poisoning or not, the poison was in the wine.

I always thought it was the Purple Wedding because Joffrey's face got as purple as a plum after. It could be the wine, too. I firmly believe the poison was in the pie. Why do you say it was in the wine?

[aryagonnakill#2]

9 hours ago, WilliamWesterosiWallace said:

Okay, point by point:

I don't think the bride and groom would stop drinking at the bedding. Why would they? It's not like they couldn't. Anyway, we can say for sure that the wine Joff drank, at that moment, wasn't poisoned. So it was in the pie. 

Yeah, Littlefinger isn't 100% lying about Tysha. I know Tyrion didn't voluntarily give his bride over, but he does say he didn't do anything to stop it, and later he even had a turn himself. (Seriously, I understand him not stopping his father giving her to his guards, but having her after that? That's just gross, man. You said you love her, at least respect her, goddamn.) 

Balon Swann's word means shit, all due respect. Garlan Tyrell is the son of one of the judges, a man of impeccable reputation. And, as I proposed up there, he could probably beat the Mountain in combat. And he KNOWS it wasn't Tyrion. He was, all the time, at Tyrion's side. Of course, I could be misreading it all, and Garlan was there to make sure Tyrion fell for it all. But, if that isn't the case, he'd be a hell of a witness. He isn't about to be bought by Cersei, marrying her is out of the question, he has Brightwater Keep so lands are fine by him, and he seems a really honorable man. He'd be on Tyrion's side, I think.

Tywin is an asshole, seriously. He totally knows it wasn't Tyrion. I mean, look at the testimonies! As I show in the OP, they are all either not saying shit about the wedding, or blatantly lying (Merryweather). The one thing that buggered Tyrion was turning the wine on the ground. Had he not done that, he could've drank it just fine, but for some reason he saw fit to spill it. But yes, Tywin knows that it wasn't Tyrion. I think there are only two reasons for Tywin to wish Tyrion to go to the NW:

1. He is Aerys's bastard, Tywin hates him, he shan't inherit the Rock, so on and so forth.

2. Most likely: He is a little piece of shit, whoring and drinking his life away. So, yeah, he can't get the Rock. Ever. 

My theory is that Cersei told the bolded to Joffrey. She saw Tyrion would leave before the pie because he was bathed in wine, so she told Joff it is ill luck not to eat the pie, and voilá. Joff goes there, she hopes he'll make Tyrion eat the goddamned pie, but instead he eats it himself. And, we don't know because Cersei doesn't think about it in her POV's, it could be she went into a shock-induced catatonia and couldn't save her kid. It does happen. 

 

I always thought it was the Purple Wedding because Joffrey's face got as purple as a plum after. It could be the wine, too. I firmly believe the poison was in the pie. Why do you say it was in the wine?

There are/were several reasons, the main one being what I posted above, before the show aired on HBO I still swear that I watched him say it was called the purple wedding because of the color of the wine, but when looking for the quote I found one where he mentions pie, "or something"  It almost sounds like he doesn't even have it exactly worked out.  I can't copy paste but google GRRM purple wedding.

Aside from his comment, poison works better in liquid because it dissolves and spreads out, if you put a strangler bead into pie you would have to bite the correct piece, and it may have to dissolve to some degree on your mucus to become effective.  What if the bead was completely surrounded by food and was swallowed whole?  It might not even work once it reaches the stomach.

I also like the simplest solution, ocams razor as it's known.  The simplest answer is that Olenna took the bead from Sansa's hairnet, gave it to Margery, and when she took a sip she put it in and handed it back to Joffrey, ensuring he sipped next.  By waiting until he was eating to put the bead in, she makes it look like he choked as they wanted.  This means LF, Ollena, Margery, and most likely the elder Kettleblack were the only people who know what happened.  The pie would require a server to be in on it, and if that were the case we should have heard of a mysterious death of a servant, even just a quick mention, but to my knowledge we don't.

The scenario I wrote above is why I think it's down right ridiculous to think Garlan was involved, Margery is by far the best candidate to have actually done the deed, because that is the only way to ensure she did not die.  What if Garlan put it in and Joffrey hands her the chalice?  What if the server you hired hands Joffrey the correct piece of pie only to have him hand it to Margery?  Margery is really the only one who can slip it in at any time.

[Neolaina]

I love how my biggest gripe is the idea that pigeon pie would be a salty dish. It wouldn't. It would be a savory dish. Now, we can split hairs about the nature of savory, and whether or not it includes salt in its characteristics, but one need only consider that many poultry-based pies can easily be served with a sweet/tart condiment. I've had turkey-based pies served with cranberry sauce, which would be considered sweet and tart.

Also, lemons are sour, not bitter. Unless you're eating the peels, I guess. Which, I suppose zest and rind would be used in making a lemon cream. Still, there's also the possibly that it could equally be made with just the juice.

God damn it. Now I'm hungry.

This thread gets a 10/10.

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

13 hours ago, Neolaina said:

I love how my biggest gripe is the idea that pigeon pie would be a salty dish. It wouldn't. It would be a savory dish. Now, we can split hairs about the nature of savory, and whether or not it includes salt in its characteristics, but one need only consider that many poultry-based pies can easily be served with a sweet/tart condiment. I've had turkey-based pies served with cranberry sauce, which would be considered sweet and tart.

Also, lemons are sour, not bitter. Unless you're eating the peels, I guess. Which, I suppose zest and rind would be used in making a lemon cream. Still, there's also the possibly that it could equally be made with just the juice.

God damn it. Now I'm hungry.

This thread gets a 10/10.

I'm not a native english speaker. Which gerenally means two things: 1. I don't confuse than and then; 2. I don't know some synonym for words that are normal in my language (Portuguese). So, rather then use the correct term, I tend to use the term I know. Sorry if I said it wrong.

You could be right. The pigeon pie could be served with lemon cream. I don't know all that much about cooking, I couldn't say for sure. 

14 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

The scenario I wrote above is why I think it's down right ridiculous to think Garlan was involved, Margery is by far the best candidate to have actually done the deed, because that is the only way to ensure she did not die.  What if Garlan put it in and Joffrey hands her the chalice?  What if the server you hired hands Joffrey the correct piece of pie only to have him hand it to Margery?  Margery is really the only one who can slip it in at any time.

I wrote a whole thread to say Garlan was specifically involved in not framing Tyrion. My point is that, if Garlan were to be involved, it'd be in giving the idea of killing Tyrion to ger Willas a perfect (and astonishingly maiden) bride. But, yeah, giving the poison to Joffrey in a pie would be a really stupid move. But, notice, Joff ate Tyrion's pie. Tyrion was the target of the poisoned pie. 

[John Suburbs]

On ‎4‎/‎9‎/‎2016 at 0:40 PM, aryagonnakill#2 said:

The poison was in the wine, hence the name purple wedding.  When talking about the episode on HBO where it happened, GRRM called it the purple wedding saying that the wine was purple and the wine was very important.  Whether you think GRRM screwed up the poisoning or not, the poison was in the wine.

Show or book?

In the book, the poison could not have possibly been in the wine or else Joffrey would have dropped dead before he finished his huge drink.

[John Suburbs]

On ‎4‎/‎9‎/‎2016 at 1:12 PM, Trogdor Targaryen said:

It's only called the purple wedding out of universe. We could presume that was the intended vessel for the poison but it's not impossible that there were numerous plus at play. If it were the lemon sauce on the pie it could be done by informing a servant that it is Tyrions favorite dish but he has to have a certain variety due to what he can handle so must be served from a seperate dish than others. It's really not top different from the wild boat that killed Robert after he was served the strong wine.

 

Anyway, I always liked Garlan most out of the tyrells. I'm disappointed that he and Will as were left out of the show but at least George said that d&d will regret leaving them out. 

Or it could just be the pie itself. That way, Lady O does not need to involve anyone else at all -- not Garlan, not Leonette, not Margy, not some random servant, no one. No one to get cold feet and screw up the plan, no one to talk about the plot where little birds can hear, no family members to put at risk if the plot is discovered.

The poison is deployed behind the head table, out of sight, within easy reach of a little old lady. She knows exactly which piece is going to Tyrion and she has very strong odds of knowing exactly which part will be his one and only bite: the pointy end, where it's easiest to tuck a tiny crystal.

If the poison was in the wine, there is no way Joffrey would have been able to finish his first big drink after the cutting ceremony. There was no way of knowing that the chalice would wind up exactly where it did at the one and only time it could have been poisoned, and there was no way of knowing that Joffrey and Tyrion would get into a fight at the wedding or that the fight would involve the chalice. There is also no way that Lady O would poison a vessel that Margy could very well be expected to drink from, since this is a time when toasts are being called out. And there is no reason why either of them would want Joffrey dead at this point: LF wants his chaos, and who better to provide it?, and Lady O wants a grandson to sit the Iron Throne ASAP. Plenty of time to kill Joffrey later, quietly and discreetly, if and when he becomes a problem.

So the wine is impossible physically, logistically, motivationally and just about any other -ally there is. 

[Snows Queen]

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Or it could just be the pie itself. That way, Lady O does not need to involve anyone else at all -- not Garlan, not Leonette, not Margy, not some random servant, no one. No one to get cold feet and screw up the plan, no one to talk about the plot where little birds can hear, no family members to put at risk if the plot is discovered.

The poison is deployed behind the head table, out of sight, within easy reach of a little old lady. She knows exactly which piece is going to Tyrion and she has very strong odds of knowing exactly which part will be his one and only bite: the pointy end, where it's easiest to tuck a tiny crystal.

If the poison was in the wine, there is no way Joffrey would have been able to finish his first big drink after the cutting ceremony. There was no way of knowing that the chalice would wind up exactly where it did at the one and only time it could have been poisoned, and there was no way of knowing that Joffrey and Tyrion would get into a fight at the wedding or that the fight would involve the chalice. There is also no way that Lady O would poison a vessel that Margy could very well be expected to drink from, since this is a time when toasts are being called out. And there is no reason why either of them would want Joffrey dead at this point: LF wants his chaos, and who better to provide it?, and Lady O wants a grandson to sit the Iron Throne ASAP. Plenty of time to kill Joffrey later, quietly and discreetly, if and when he becomes a problem.

So the wine is impossible physically, logistically, motivationally and just about any other -ally there is. 

Correct me if I am wrong please.  The only other time we see the Strangler used in the story is at Castle Black.  When the Maester wants to kill Mel he puts it in wine that he intends for her to drink.  She is immune to the effects of the poison.  The Maester realizes this and knows it is going to kill him as he drinks it but he has no choice but to drink it anyway.  The Maester does not take a small sip and keel over to die, he takes large gulps, as I remember.  The argument that the poison couldn't have been in the wine because he wouldn't have lived long enough to take a big drink contradicts that.  Can anyone tell me if I am remembering the Castle Black scene wrong?

[Makk]

3 minutes ago, Snows Queen said:

Correct me if I am wrong please.  The only other time we see the Strangler used in the story is at Castle Black.  When the Maester wants to kill Mel he puts it in wine that he intends for her to drink.  She is immune to the effects of the poison.  The Maester realizes this and knows it is going to kill him as he drinks it but he has no choice but to drink it anyway.  The Maester does not take a small sip and keel over to die, he takes large gulps, as I remember.  The argument that the poison couldn't have been in the wine because he wouldn't have lived long enough to take a big drink contradicts that.  Can anyone tell me if I am remembering the Castle Black scene wrong?

Well it's on Dragonstone for a start.

"As you will." Melisandre of Asshai took the cup from his hands and drank long and deep. There was only half a swallow of wine remaining when she offered it back to him. "And now you."

His hands were shaking, but he made himself be strong. A maester of the Citadel must not be afraid. The wine was sour on his tongue. He let the empty cup drop from his fingers to shatter on the floor. "He does have power here, my lord," the woman said. "And fire cleanses." At her throat, the ruby shimmered redly.

Cressen tried to reply, but his words caught in his throat. His cough became a terrible thin whistle as he strained to suck in air. Iron fingers tightened round his neck. As he sank to his knees, still he shook his head, denying her, denying her power, denying her magic, denying her god. And the cowbells peeled in his antlers, singing fool, fool, fool while the red woman looked down on him in pity, the candle flames dancing in her red red eyes.

So he didn't take much.

If it was poison in the pie, which I admit was a pretty awesome theory, I doubt we will ever know. I think the wine was the most likely and Joffery the target. If Cersei saw Joffery about to eat the pie, I think she would have got crazy and interrupted him. It is also so much trickier. But there were a lot of subtle suggestions so it was a really well thought out argument.

 

 

[John Suburbs]

On ‎4‎/‎9‎/‎2016 at 2:37 PM, WilliamWesterosiWallace said:

Okay, point by point:

I don't think the bride and groom would stop drinking at the bedding. Why would they? It's not like they couldn't. Anyway, we can say for sure that the wine Joff drank, at that moment, wasn't poisoned. So it was in the pie. 

 

Again, though, are you talking about the bedding custom, where the bride and groom are stripped naked by the guests and carried to the bedding chamber, or are you talking about when the two are alone together in the chamber? If it's the former, there is no way either one can be drinking at this point, especially when holding a giant chalice. How are the guests supposed to get his clothes off, and how can he be drinking when they are pushing, pulling and carrying him to the chamber? If it's the latter, how on earth is Margy supposed to explain that a perfectly healthy Joff entered the chamber and then a few moments later he's dead? Is he supposed to be carrying his pie as well, so it looks like he choked on food? And how could anyone possibly blame it on Tyrion at this point?

 

On ‎4‎/‎9‎/‎2016 at 2:37 PM, WilliamWesterosiWallace said:

Yeah, Littlefinger isn't 100% lying about Tysha. I know Tyrion didn't voluntarily give his bride over, but he does say he didn't do anything to stop it, and later he even had a turn himself. (Seriously, I understand him not stopping his father giving her to his guards, but having her after that? That's just gross, man. You said you love her, at least respect her, goddamn.) 

 

 LF never lies 100 percent. There is always just enough truth to make it believable. Tyrion thought Tysha was a whore at that point, so he did as his father bade him. We don't know what the ultimatum was, but I'm sure it was not good. For all we know, Tywin would have had her killed then and there if Tyrion did not obey. But this is beside the point. We know for a fact that Littlefinger is lying about the wine because there is no possible way he could have known that the chalice would end up exactly where it did at the one and only time it could have been poisoned. And there is no way of knowing that Joff and Tyrion's fight would involve the chalice, or that they would fight at all. And sorry, Littlefinger wants chaos to climb the rungs of power, so why is he killing Joffrey, the most powerful chaotic person in the country?

 

On ‎4‎/‎9‎/‎2016 at 2:37 PM, WilliamWesterosiWallace said:

Balon Swann's word means shit, all due respect. Garlan Tyrell is the son of one of the judges, a man of impeccable reputation. And, as I proposed up there, he could probably beat the Mountain in combat. And he KNOWS it wasn't Tyrion. He was, all the time, at Tyrion's side. Of course, I could be misreading it all, and Garlan was there to make sure Tyrion fell for it all. But, if that isn't the case, he'd be a hell of a witness. He isn't about to be bought by Cersei, marrying her is out of the question, he has Brightwater Keep so lands are fine by him, and he seems a really honorable man. He'd be on Tyrion's side, I think.

 

 Balon Swann is an anointed knight and a hero from the Battle of the Blackwater. His word counts just as much as the son of a major house. Garlen does not know Tyrion did not do it. All he knows is the he did not see Tyrion do it. Big difference. Yes, Garlen in Tyrion's corner would help, but it would not be near enough against witnesses who testify that they did see him do it and who overheard him plotting the deed.

On ‎4‎/‎9‎/‎2016 at 2:37 PM, WilliamWesterosiWallace said:

Tywin is an asshole, seriously. He totally knows it wasn't Tyrion. I mean, look at the testimonies! As I show in the OP, they are all either not saying shit about the wedding, or blatantly lying (Merryweather). The one thing that buggered Tyrion was turning the wine on the ground. Had he not done that, he could've drank it just fine, but for some reason he saw fit to spill it. But yes, Tywin knows that it wasn't Tyrion. I think there are only two reasons for Tywin to wish Tyrion to go to the NW:

1. He is Aerys's bastard, Tywin hates him, he shan't inherit the Rock, so on and so forth.

2. Most likely: He is a little piece of shit, whoring and drinking his life away. So, yeah, he can't get the Rock. Ever. 

 

No argument here. Tywin does not want Tyrion to inherit, but neither does he want him dead. What is a father to do when one of your children accuses the other of murdering your grandson? You hold a trial and sit in judgement. But to argue that Tywin would vote to acquit Tyrion just because Garlen says he didn't see Tyrion do it while there are multiple witnesses who say he did is a real stretch. All of the testimony save for Lady Merryweather and Shae are factual, BTW. Tyrion did strike Joffrey during the riots, he did threaten Cersei and he did seize Tommen from his sworn shield. And since Shae was later found in Tywin's bed, it's reasonable to assume that he had as much to do with her testimony than Cersei. So no, Tywin would not let Tyrion off just because Garlen says he didn't see him do it.

 

On ‎4‎/‎9‎/‎2016 at 2:37 PM, WilliamWesterosiWallace said:

My theory is that Cersei told the bolded to Joffrey. She saw Tyrion would leave before the pie because he was bathed in wine, so she told Joff it is ill luck not to eat the pie, and voilá. Joff goes there, she hopes he'll make Tyrion eat the goddamned pie, but instead he eats it himself. And, we don't know because Cersei doesn't think about it in her POV's, it could be she went into a shock-induced catatonia and couldn't save her kid. It does happen. 

 

No, this is obviously a common custom throughout Westeros by the way the guests reacted to the pie. Their wedding pie is like our wedding cake. It is a formal event within the wedding reception. It is brought in to great fanfare, all the guests rise, the bride and groom cut the pie, and a portion is served to each guest, except in this case the big pie had live birds in it so the guests were served properly cooked pies. To not eat of it would be a discourtesy to the couple, and since this is a royal wedding, note would be made of who did not eat and the "ill luck" would arrive in the form of some of disfavor from the king -- an unfavorable ruling in a land dispute perhaps, or being passed over for an appointment.

And again, you have Joffrey grab the pie, "It's ill luck not to eat the pie", shoves it into his mouth, grabs another piece, "See, it's good", eats that, a few little kofs... and this whole time Cersei says and does nothing even though she knows the pie is deadly poison? Sorry, no. She is not catatonic. She is not in denial. She is terrified of Tyrion, even in her dreams because she thinks he is crawling throughout the Red Keep waiting to kill her and Tommen too. If there is any shred of text to suggest Cersei had anything to do with Joffrey's death, please share.

 

 

[John Suburbs]

15 minutes ago, Snows Queen said:

Correct me if I am wrong please.  The only other time we see the Strangler used in the story is at Castle Black.  When the Maester wants to kill Mel he puts it in wine that he intends for her to drink.  She is immune to the effects of the poison.  The Maester realizes this and knows it is going to kill him as he drinks it but he has no choice but to drink it anyway.  The Maester does not take a small sip and keel over to die, he takes large gulps, as I remember.  The argument that the poison couldn't have been in the wine because he wouldn't have lived long enough to take a big drink contradicts that.  Can anyone tell me if I am remembering the Castle Black scene wrong?

Like Makk says, Cressen did not take large gulps. Mel drank most and then Cressen had the last half-swallow that he downs in a split second. Then Mel says her bit about the fire, and Cressen cannot speak: so between ingestion and incapacitation you have maybe five seconds.

Joffrey takes chug after chug of supposedly poisoned wine while Margaery says her bit about Lord Buckler's toast -- a sentence that is about a third longer than Mel's -- and Joffrey shows no ill affects. Then he taunts Tyrion, eats pie, gives a tiny kof, eats more pie, "a bit dry though, needs washing down", drinks wine, kofs more violently, "I want to see you ride that, kof kof, pig, I want..." and Joff gives in to a fit of koffing.

Note that while the pie is in his mouth, he is koffing mildly, but within five seconds after drinking the wine and washing it down his throat, his words are "caught in his throat" -- just like Cressen.

And then the kicker: "It's, kof, the pie, noth -- kof, the pie." Here you have the victim himself who can feel everything that is attacking his throat, and it ain't the wine.