Balon is the worst Military Leader in recent history

[watcher of the night]

1 hour ago, Protagoras said:

Because you seem to think that Robbs offer was a good one and would have changed the perception of Balon from stupid to smart. It wouldn´t. It would however, make the Starks happy and some fans therefore want that to happen regardless of the internal logic behind it. In short - Balon is presented as stupid because he didn´t assist Robb, which is not even close to what I see.

I never said that it would have changed the perception of Balon from stupid to smart, though it would have been a smarter move than his current one. Also, it has nothing to do with Stark support. He is looks stupid becuse of the things he did. He declared independence without allies, he rejected the only offer he got, then he attacked the only party that posed no threat whatsoever to the independence of the Iron islands. He made mistakes and there is no way around it.

If he wanted indpendence he attacked the wrong guys.

If he wanted landgrab and plunder then he made a mistake declaring independence.

 

32 minutes ago, Sullen said:

Because independence is not actually his endgoal, so saying that Balon was a bad military leader because his plans for independence were flawed is completely missing the point.

I don't know where do you get that independence was not one his main goals. His desire to became independent is emphaised over and over.

Also, if it was not his aim that he made a big mistake declaring it. It made any negotiations more difficult and it did not help his position in any way.

[Sullen]

6 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

I don't know where do you get that independence was not one his main goals. His desire to became independent is emphaised over and over.

Mostly because he would have never given Asha a lesson about bending the knee otherwise, and it explains why he tried to contact the Lannister camp as soon as their victory was assured. He planned on folding and keeping his gains when the moment came, that moment was the Lannister/Tyrell victory on the Blackwater.

7 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

Also, if it was not his aim that he made a big mistake declaring it. It made any negotiations more difficult and it did not help his position in any way.

It gave him leverage at the negotiation table, and arguably motivated his men/lords in the conquest of Northern lands.

I think it was a gamble, one he could have done without, but there is a modicum of sense in his actions.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Saying "Balon is the worst X in recent history" is correct, no matter what X is.

[Protagoras]

1 hour ago, watcher of the night said:

Also, it has nothing to do with Stark support.

It has everything to do with Stark support. Balon is no genius but his flaws are in most threads I have read overstated, usually with the hint that Balon should have helped Robb in his own self-interest. The OP certainly comes of this way, regardless of his/her failed attempt to state that there is no bias and end with the classical "Theon was smart here" etc etc. Yet I have seen zero strong arguments why it is in Balons interest to join Robb. Granted, attacking the North without support of the Iron throne was stupid - but that is really the only obvious mistake he makes. Playing it cool, making a deal with the Throne, random plundering - all those are better options than helping Robb.

There is simply no reasonable logic why Balon, from his POW - regardless if he wants independence or not, would want to assist Robb. Again - Robb can´t back him up in any way and as soon as Robb goes North, he is toast. You try to to make this Attacking Robb = Stupid, but that is simply not the whole issue.

So lets turn this around. What logical, realpolitical arguments exist according to you, seen only from Balons and the Ironborns logical perspective, that make the Robb-Balon alliance work. And no, plundering Lannisport is not one - Balon can do that without allying with Robb. Neither is a recognition. Balon doesn´t need Robbs accnowledgement.

[Sage of Westeros]

I am a staunch Ironborn and Greyjoy fan, and extensively against Balon as far as logic and reason go, but you need to understand all of his plans have merit until they happen. Hindsight is 20/20 so we can all mock his ideas but consider from Balon's side:

RR: He had no real choice in the leadership of his house, followed his father, left when there wasn't a war to be fought anymore. Balon had the chance to continue but instead went home because fighting in the Reach would've gained him little. Seems pretty shrewd to me.

Greyjoy Rebellion: A poor plan, albeit well executed all things considered. He destroyed the Lannister fleet, built massive warships and weapons and armor, prepared to fight a war. My main man Victarion lost the war for him at Fair Isle after being lured into a trap. It happens, and it really isn't Balon's fault. His son failed at Seagard, again not Balon's fault. All things considered Balon's fault, besides declaring an unwinnable war, was putting so much faith in his family. 

WotFK: Balon is given an offer he can't refuse: attack the most cunning, frightening man in Westeros and try an beat him at warfare. Tywin is a proven leader, ruthless, shrewd, and cruel, not an enemy people want to make as seen in the fate of the Reynes and Tarbecks. Balon can choose to attack a place that has never fallen in thousands of years of history, try and claim open lands without a strong defense, try and defeat the wealthiest nation in Westeros. He would've taken a ripe fruit I'll grant, however the North is more tantalizing. Balon sees a boy lord who ran south with no fleet and no means to return north if you seize the only land route. He also assumes Tywin would win cunningly, which he assumes correctly, and thinks he can barter with Tywin for the North. A fair thought all things considered considering that Tywin is generous to his allies and brutal to his enemies. Balon's choices center around him being afraid of repeating is prior choices, and simply of being rightly afraid of Tywin. Balon ends the War of the Five Kings with a good swathe of the North, no real threat up there, with the Capital seized, two claimants "dead", and his one enemy has expended himself in the south with no logical means of heading home. Forgive me but if anyone can be seaid to have died the victor of the WotFK, besides Tywin, it is Balon who more than tripled his land mass and barely lost men.

I think Theon's plan had better merit, oddly enough Asha did too but said nothing until Feast, but in the end I can understand Balon's choices by considering all things going on in Clash and all things historically with my boys the Greyjoys.

[Sullen]

4 minutes ago, Sage of Westeros said:

Greyjoy Rebellion: A poor plan, albeit well executed all things considered. He destroyed the Lannister fleet, built massive warships and weapons and armor, prepared to fight a war. My main man Victarion lost the war for him at Fair Isle after being lured into a trap. It happens, and it really isn't Balon's fault. His son failed at Seagard, again not Balon's fault. All things considered Balon's fault, besides declaring an unwinnable war, was putting so much faith in his family. 

Considering his whole plan pretty much hinged on the Crown not having support and the Reach and Dorne jumping on the independence train, I'd say the fault is very much his there.

He should have communicated with the Reachmen and the Dornish beforehand, and not launch a rebellion against the united seven other kingdoms.

[Sage of Westeros]

Just now, Sullen said:

Considering his whole plan pretty much hinged on the Crown not having support and the Reach and Dorne jumping on the independence train, I'd say the fault is very much his there.

He should have communicated with the Reachmen and the Dornish beforehand, and not launch a rebellion against the united seven other kingdoms.

True, it wasn't the best plan, or a good plan at all, but he had a misplaced faith in his people's ability to win a war at sea. I mean, I would put my faith in Victarion to win a battle but 1v7 is never a good fight to fight, especially when one of those "one" might as well count for 3 themselves (aka the massive Reach). Again, it was a decent concept but poorly executed.

[LordPathera]

48 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

It has everything to do with Stark support. Balon is no genius but his flaws are in most threads I have read overstated, usually with the hint that Balon should have helped Robb in his own self-interest. The OP certainly comes of this way, regardless of his/her failed attempt to state that there is no bias and end with the classical "Theon was smart here" etc etc. Yet I have seen zero strong arguments why it is in Balons interest to join Robb. Granted, attacking the North without support of the Iron throne was stupid - but that is really the only obvious mistake he makes. Playing it cool, making a deal with the Throne, random plundering - all those are better options than helping Robb.

There is simply no reasonable logic why Balon, from his POW - regardless if he wants independence or not, would want to assist Robb. Again - Robb can´t back him up in any way and as soon as Robb goes North, he is toast. You try to to make this Attacking Robb = Stupid, but that is simply not the whole issue.

So lets turn this around. What logical, realpolitical arguments exist according to you, seen only from Balons and the Ironborns logical perspective, that make the Robb-Balon alliance work. And no, plundering Lannisport is not one - Balon can do that without allying with Robb. Neither is a recognition. Balon doesn´t need Robbs accnowledgement.

As pointed out in my OP:

1) Westerlands are richer and would make a better plunder ground than the North. It's also smaller in landmass, closer to the Iron Islands and less vulnerable to the nigh-approaching winter.

2) Tywin is losing the war at the time when Balon talks to Theon and is further caught between three enemies. Balon has no way of knowing about the Bolton's betrayal, Renly's murder or how Blackwater would turn out. Thus if Balon were a shark and as smart as his real-life counterparts (vikings), the Westerlands would be the better meal due to how much its bleeding.

3) Knowing how unforgiving and ruthless Tywin is, what makes Balon believe that he can forge an alliance with the man after he declares independence and crowns himself King? This point alone is a contender for worst head-banger and even Tywin seemed amused/annoyed at Balon's sheer audacity and madness.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

13 minutes ago, LordPathera said:

As pointed out in my OP:

1) Westerlands are richer and would make a better plunder ground than the North. It's also smaller in landmass, closer to the Iron Islands and less vulnerable to the nigh-approaching winter.

Also has an actual Navy to defend itself and, like Robb mentions, its capital actually has a defense not consisting of untrained boys and Hodor.

Robb did not think his 6k was enough to threaten it, Winterfell was taken with a few dozen men.

It is better for Balon to take as few casualties as possible so he can actually defend any gains he makes. Pointless losing thousands of men just to make Robb happy.

13 minutes ago, LordPathera said:

2) Tywin is losing the war at the time when Balon talks to Theon and is further caught between three enemies. Balon has no way of knowing about the Bolton's betrayal, Renly's murder or how Blackwater would turn out. Thus if Balon were a shark and as smart as his real-life counterparts (vikings), the Westerlands would be the better meal due to how much its bleeding.

He is actually not. Robb had not got past the Golden Tooth at that point nor had he beaten Stafford. You may have had a point if Theon had arrived and shared this plan after Oxcross but he had not.

13 minutes ago, LordPathera said:

3) Knowing how unforgiving and ruthless Tywin is, what makes Balon believe that he can forge an alliance with the man after he declares independence and crowns himself King? This point alone is a contender for worst head-banger and even Tywin seemed amused/annoyed at Balon's sheer audacity and madness.

Why would he care? He has not harmed any of Tywin's interests and Tywin has shown that he is very much a carrot and stick kind of guy. He can by just as rewarding to those who help him as he can be vicious to those who have crossed him.

Balon attacking the North is not going to anger Tywin. This is a pretty ridiculous point to make.

[Protagoras]

50 minutes ago, LordPathera said:

As pointed out in my OP:

1) Westerlands are richer and would make a better plunder ground than the North. It's also smaller in landmass, closer to the Iron Islands and less vulnerable to the nigh-approaching winter.

2) Tywin is losing the war at the time when Balon talks to Theon and is further caught between three enemies. Balon has no way of knowing about the Bolton's betrayal, Renly's murder or how Blackwater would turn out. Thus if Balon were a shark and as smart as his real-life counterparts (vikings), the Westerlands would be the better meal due to how much its bleeding.

3) Knowing how unforgiving and ruthless Tywin is, what makes Balon believe that he can forge an alliance with the man after he declares independence and crowns himself King? This point alone is a contender for worst head-banger and even Tywin seemed amused/annoyed at Balon's sheer audacity and madness.

And as pointed out from me, your OP is simply not arguing why Robb and Balon should ally. This is rather reasons why Balon shouldn´t attack Robb without crown support. You are coming of as a Stark fanboy and it is very much relevant for the topic since the arguments you present makes me wonder if you actually understand the issue I am presenting here.

1. But Balon can plunder the Westerlands WITHOUT an alliance with Robb. Why commit to such a military project if the benefits from it are something you could have gotten anyway! Robb is already stuck in the war, Balon is not - Plunder Westerland without committing to an alliance then. Robb is not giving anything here - nor is he with the recognition since Balon will have to recognize Robb too.

2. Yes, Tywin is losing the war. An excellent time for Robb to point out which land gains in Westerlands Balon will get and what kind of support Balon can expect from Robb to keep the territories he have conquered as well as the future commitments. I agree that Balon can take things in the Westerlands, but if this alliance is going to be a reality Balon needs support when the war is over and the Lannisters want their territories back. Will Northern soldiers bleed for Ironborn interests if necessary? Will the North help combat a unified Tyrell-Lannister fleet by sending ships from Riverlands to the Iron Islands defense? Will the North in a future negotiation demand a peace for the Ironborn as well with their newly gained territories? Will the northern command accept the Ironborn culture and the rapes/thralltaking/saltwifing they will inflict on their enemies without stopping them in any way? The "alliance" Robb offers is nothing Balon can´t do himself. If Robb expects Balon to commit he needs to give him something more than an empty verification of his Kingship. Balon is the one not caught in a war already, who can plunder Westerland if he wants and doesn´t need Robb in any way. This mean Robb need to give arguments what he can do for Balon (And I havn´t seen a single argument so far what Robb is willing to do for Balon) in order to secure military support. Yet this doesn´t happen. Why? Because Robb´s alliance only stretches as far as "I want your help" yet offer nothing in return, neither now nor in the future. He offers nothing to Balon - nothing. Don´t you see that?

3. Yes, that was stupid. That however is the only point you have here (one that I pointed out with my first post) and it still doesn´t give a good reason for Balon to work with Robb or even avoid attacking him. It simply means that Balon should have gotten Throne-support before attacking Robb. Nothing more.

Seriously, can someone give some real arguments here what Robb can and will do for Balon? Is there no one who understand what I am even talking about here? I am seriously recommending playing diplomacy or any kind of boardgame with negotiations for everyone who doesn´t get what I am talking about.

[Protagoras]

DP

[LordPathera]

5 hours ago, Protagoras said:

And as pointed out from me, your OP is simply not arguing why Robb and Balon should ally. This is rather reasons why Balon shouldn´t attack Robb without crown support. You are coming of as a Stark fanboy and it is very much relevant for the topic since the arguments you present makes me wonder if you actually understand the issue I am presenting here.

1. But Balon can plunder the Westerlands WITHOUT an alliance with Robb. Why commit to such a military project if the benefits from it are something you could have gotten anyway! Robb is already stuck in the war, Balon is not - Plunder Westerland without committing to an alliance then. Robb is not giving anything here - nor is he with the recognition since Balon will have to recognize Robb too.

2. Yes, Tywin is losing the war. An excellent time for Robb to point out which land gains in Westerlands Balon will get and what kind of support Balon can expect from Robb to keep the territories he have conquered as well as the future commitments. I agree that Balon can take things in the Westerlands, but if this alliance is going to be a reality Balon needs support when the war is over and the Lannisters want their territories back. Will Northern soldiers bleed for Ironborn interests if necessary? Will the North help combat a unified Tyrell-Lannister fleet by sending ships from Riverlands to the Iron Islands defense? Will the North in a future negotiation demand a peace for the Ironborn as well with their newly gained territories? Will the northern command accept the Ironborn culture and the rapes/thralltaking/saltwifing they will inflict on their enemies without stopping them in any way? The "alliance" Robb offers is nothing Balon can´t do himself. If Robb expects Balon to commit he needs to give him something more than an empty verification of his Kingship. Balon is the one not caught in a war already, who can plunder Westerland if he wants and doesn´t need Robb in any way. This mean Robb need to give arguments what he can do for Balon (And I havn´t seen a single argument so far what Robb is willing to do for Balon) in order to secure military support. Yet this doesn´t happen. Why? Because Robb´s alliance only stretches as far as "I want your help" yet offer nothing in return, neither now nor in the future. He offers nothing to Balon - nothing. Don´t you see that?

3. Yes, that was stupid. That however is the only point you have here (one that I pointed out with my first post) and it still doesn´t give a good reason for Balon to work with Robb or even avoid attacking him. It simply means that Balon should have gotten Throne-support before attacking Robb. Nothing more.

Seriously, can someone give some real arguments here what Robb can and will do for Balon? Is there no one who understand what I am even talking about here? I am seriously recommending playing diplomacy or any kind of boardgame with negotiations for everyone who doesn´t get what I am talking about.

I won't dignify the stark fanboy nonsense, so moving on:

1) True he can plunder the Westerlands without an alliance. (and again, he has more to gain from the West than the North) However 2 is always better than 1. Balon would have a much better chance of raiding and holding the West if he did so in coordination with another ally (Robb). 

Hell, I'd give the man more slack if he'd actually waited and then either raided both sides while they're too tired to stop him or picked the winning horse to side with and wait for a better time to declare his independence day. If his contending allies/enemies were the Lannisters and the Dornish and he choose to invade a desert land that's almost alien to his people, the stupidity of such a decision would be no different from what happened in-story.

2) Robb offers Balon the West. He offers him an opportunity to raid the gold of the West and strengthen his own movement for independence. And it's not like Robb is sitting on his butt waiting for Balon to do everything, even as Theon talks with his idiot father, Robb is in the Westerlands pretty much uncontested while Tywin is stuck in the Riverlands.

3) There's also the first Greyjoy Rebellion fail, let's not pretend that wasn't a huge blunder and that I'm wrong for pointing that one out.

And again, Balon's stupidity and pride have made crown support impossible because he's crowned himself in direct defiance of the Iron Throne.

Again, 2 is better than 1. The story has repeatedly given multiple examples of how alliances between strong and great houses have often increased the odds of one side beating the other. Robert's Rebellion was successful because the Baratheons were linked with half of Westeros through the Starks, Tullys and Arryns; Balon's first epic fail was because 5 of the Great Houses were directly tied to Robert in some way; and Tywin was bound to lose if not for Tyrion's efforts in forging an alliance with the Tyrell's after Renly's death (along with other instances of luck that favored Tywin)

A board-game with negotiations would have done wonders for Balon.

[watcher of the night]

13 hours ago, Protagoras said:

It has everything to do with Stark support.

LoL, I gave you and argument and you picked the sentence with “Stark” in it and ignored the rest of argument ...

 

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There is simply no reasonable logic why Balon, from his POW - regardless if he wants independence or not, would want to assist Robb.

 

There are reasons given are just too busy labelling your oppenents “butthurt stark fanboys” to read these arguments.

 

12 hours ago, Sage of Westeros said:

WotFK: Balon is given an offer he can't refuse: attack the most cunning, frightening man in Westeros and try an beat him at warfare. Tywin is a proven leader, ruthless, shrewd, and cruel, not an enemy people want to make as seen in the fate of the Reynes and Tarbecks.

Balon was a chicken. It was a self-fulfilling profecy. Tywin won only becuase Balon did not dare to attack him. Balon reminds of a school-bully-wanna-be who brags all day how strong he is then attacks the weakest boy in the scholl who cannot retaliate. When the real bully shows up he sh@ts his pant and begs for mercy.

 

12 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Why would he care? He has not harmed any of Tywin's interests and Tywin has shown that he is very much a carrot and stick kind of guy. He can by just as rewarding to those who help him as he can be vicious to those who have crossed him.

Balon attacking the North is not going to anger Tywin. This is a pretty ridiculous point to make.

You seem to forget/ignore that he commited treason against the IT be crowning himself. Why would Tywin forgive him? At this point he cannot be trusted, he already rebelled twice. Also if he bends his knee his internal postion is weakened: “Balon weak-knee”, he folded twice under pressue why would his people trust him any longer? So by crowning himself he manouvered himself in a bad position where he has no good options other then playing for the demise of IT. He was just too blind to see it.

[watcher of the night]

11 hours ago, Protagoras said:

And as pointed out from me, your OP is simply not arguing why Robb and Balon should ally. This is rather reasons why Balon shouldn´t attack Robb without crown support. You are coming of as a Stark fanboy and it is very much relevant for the topic since the arguments you present makes me wonder if you actually understand the issue I am presenting here.

 

Here again you are too busy labelling instead of arguing. Counterarguments are already presented you just keep ignoring them.

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1. But Balon can plunder the Westerlands WITHOUT an alliance with Robb. Why commit to such a military project if the benefits from it are something you could have gotten anyway! Robb is already stuck in the war, Balon is not - Plunder Westerland without committing to an alliance then. Robb is not giving anything here - nor is he with the recognition since Balon will have to recognize Robb too.

Robb had plenty of what Balon needed, Robb had the resources of two kingdoms, a large standing army (larger than Balon could ever hope to gather), experience defeating the Lannisters. Robb was the only chance to defeat or weaken the IT, so whoever sits on has not time and resources to bother with the Iron islands.

 

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2. Yes, Tywin is losing the war. An excellent time for Robb to point out which land gains in Westerlands Balon will get and what kind of support Balon can expect from Robb to keep the territories he have conquered as well as the future commitments. I agree that Balon can take things in the Westerlands, but if this alliance is going to be a reality Balon needs support when the war is over and the Lannisters want their territories back. Will Northern soldiers bleed for Ironborn interests if necessary? Will the North help combat a unified Tyrell-Lannister fleet by sending ships from Riverlands to the Iron Islands defense? Will the North in a future negotiation demand a peace for the Ironborn as well with their newly gained territories? Will the northern command accept the Ironborn culture and the rapes/thralltaking/saltwifing they will inflict on their enemies without stopping them in any way? The "alliance" Robb offers is nothing Balon can´t do himself. If Robb expects Balon to commit he needs to give him something more than an empty verification of his Kingship.

 

Robb already commited himself by accepting the title of King of the North. Robb was also a sworn enemy of the Lannsiters who killed his father and tried to kill his younger brother. What else you need?

Balon and Robb had vested interest Balon was just too blind too see it. His only chance independence was the weakening or even disbanding of the IT. Robb was the only one who offered this chance. Both the Lannisters and Tyrells (Renly) wanted a unified IT. Balon attacking Robb just made it easier for the Lannister/Tyrell allience to regain controll.

 

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Balon is the one not caught in a war already,

Balon already commited high treason by crowning himself a king. Again, why would Tywin forgive him? At this point he cannot be trusted, he already rebelled twice. Also if he bends his knee his internal postion is weakened: “Balon weak-knee”, he folded twice under pressue why would his people trust him any longer? So by crowning himself he manouvered himself in a bad position where he has no good options other then playing for the demise of IT. He was just too blind to see it.

 

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who can plunder Westerland if he wants and doesn´t need Robb in any way. This mean Robb need to give arguments what he can do for Balon (And I havn´t seen a single argument so far what Robb is willing to do for Balon) in order to secure military support. Yet this doesn´t happen. Why? Because Robb´s alliance only stretches as far as "I want your help" yet offer nothing in return, neither now nor in the future. He offers nothing to Balon - nothing. Don´t you see that?

Again he offers lot more than Balon can ever hope to gain (see above), Balon just was blind to see it.

 

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3. Yes, that was stupid. That however is the only point you have here (one that I pointed out with my first post) and it still doesn´t give a good reason for Balon to work with Robb or even avoid attacking him. It simply means that Balon should have gotten Throne-support before attacking Robb. Nothing more.

It gives him a very good reason,see above. He commited treason, there is no reeason why he would be forgiven.

 

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Seriously, can someone give some real arguments here what Robb can and will do for Balon? Is there no one who understand what I am even talking about here? I am seriously recommending playing diplomacy or any kind of boardgame with negotiations for everyone who doesn´t get what I am talking about.

I gave you arguments repreatedly, perhaps now you will focus on the arguments instead of the labelling.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

10 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

Balon was a chicken. It was a self-fulfilling profecy. Tywin won only becuase Balon did not dare to attack him. Balon reminds of a school-bully-wanna-be who brags all day how strong he is then attacks the weakest boy in the scholl who cannot retaliate. When the real bully shows up he sh@ts his pant and begs for mercy.

Sure. if you want to put it like that. Though can I ask when did Balon brag about how strong he was? When did he mention that he could beat the 'strongest boys in school'?

His tactic of picking on the weakest enemy is pretty much what the Vikings did. It is actually a sound military practice. Robb did not wait till the army at Oxcross was trained and armed, nor did he give them warning when he would attack them. He attacked them before they were properly trained and while they slept. There is nothing wrong with attacking your enemies when they are at their weakest.

10 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

 

You seem to forget/ignore that he commited treason against the IT be crowning himself.

No, I have not forgotten about it. I just don't see it as much of an issue as you did. The army with Mace committed treason and starved Kings Landing. The army with with Stannis attacked Kings Landing. The Riverlands Northern armies engaged in war with with the Crown.

Tywin forgave (mostly) all of those, Balon's treason by comparison is a trifle in comparison. Balon did not attack the Crown or any of their loyalists.

10 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

Why would Tywin forgive him?

Why would he not? He has not attacked the Crown or their allies. There is little to forgive.

10 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

 

At this point he cannot be trusted, he already rebelled twice.

None of the Lords can be 'trusted'. They all have their own self interests. Tywin is not Ned.

10 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

Also if he bends his knee his internal postion is weakened: “Balon weak-knee”, he folded twice under pressue why would his people trust him any longer?

lol it is not a democracy.

And he lost a war and was still loved. If he rejoins the Crown but with greater lands it will be a victory and few casualties. Maybe a small victory, but a victory nonetheless.

10 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

So by crowning himself he manouvered himself in a bad position where he has no good options other then playing for the demise of IT. He was just too blind to see it.

lol that is not how the books show it. At no point in the entire of ASOS did Tywin want to wage war on Balon. His crowning was seen as a trivial matter.

At his death the Ironborn were still in a very strong position. Had he not died Roose would have had much trouble taking Moat Cailin as Robb would have done. More so as he would have been reliant on fewer men to take Moat Cailin.

[Protagoras]

Since clearly some people still don´t get (or refuses to get) what I am talking about, my counter-post will be this:

I can relate, Kim - I certainly can.

[Knight Of Winter]

Think about it, I still can't baffle how much of a stupid decision was for Balon to attack North. Ok, so Balon sees the conflict between Starks and Lannisters and decides to use it to proclaim II's independence. So far so good. He obviously has to choose between allying himself with one of two factions:

Starks - who want independent North

Lannister - who want control over entire un-shattered realm.

Now, based on the above, which one out of these two will be completely fine with II's independence (Balon's goal) and which one will categorically reject it? The answer should be obvious to anyone other than Balon.

19 hours ago, JonCon's Red Beard said:

Saying "Balon is the worst X in recent history" is correct, no matter what X is.

X=Father? Strategist? Leader? Case of sudden loss of brain cells? Pretty much everything works.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

24 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

Think about it, I still can't baffle how much of a stupid decision was for Balon to attack North.

Well this is more on you than it the author. I really don't think he can make it any clearer why he chose the defenseless North.

"Casterly Rock is too strong, and Lord Tywin too cunning by half. Aye, we might take Lannisport, but we should never keep it. No. I hunger for a different plum . . . not so juicy sweet, to be sure, yet it hangs there ripe and undefended."

Now the beauty of this quote as it is 100% true as we see how easy the Ironborn have it in the North and we even get Robb confirming how strong Casterly Rock and Lannisport are.

Did you ever think to ask yourself why we remained in the west so long after Oxcross? You knew I did not have enough men to threaten Lannisport or Casterly Rock.

So the author states the reasons why Balon chose the North. Protagoras is correct, Stark fans seem more angry with characters for their failiure to help the favorite characters. That is why Balon, Lysa, Edmure, Rodrik and even Cat get blamed for Robb's failings. Robb needed an alliance and offered nothing in return. Balon and the Ironborn were supposed to take on most of the risk while Robb's own army remained in the Riverlands.

[watcher of the night]

16 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Well this is more on you than it the author. I really don't think he can make it any clearer why he chose the defenseless North.

"Casterly Rock is too strong, and Lord Tywin too cunning by half. Aye, we might take Lannisport, but we should never keep it. No. I hunger for a different plum . . . not so juicy sweet, to be sure, yet it hangs there ripe and undefended."

Now the beauty of this quote as it is 100% true as we see how easy the Ironborn have it in the North and we even get Robb confirming how strong Casterly Rock and Lannisport are.

Did you ever think to ask yourself why we remained in the west so long after Oxcross? You knew I did not have enough men to threaten Lannisport or Casterly Rock.

So the author states the reasons why Balon chose the North. Protagoras is correct, Stark fans seem more angry with characters for their failiure to help the favorite characters. That is why Balon, Lysa, Edmure, Rodrik and even Cat get blamed for Robb's failings. Robb needed an alliance and offered nothing in return. Balon and the Ironborn were supposed to take on most of the risk while Robb's own army remained in the Riverlands.

The only thing that Protagoras was good at is name calling. You must be Balon reincarnation alongside with him because just as Balon you ignore the very reason why he had an aligned interest with Robb and conflict of interest with the Lannister/Tyrell allience. And it had nothing to do with the fact whether he could capture Casterly Rock at the moment or not.

Robb wanted independence hence the aligned interest.

Lannister/Tyrell alience wanted a unified 7k hence the conflict of interest.

Neither you nor Protagoras nor enyone else made any observation that would conflict with this assessment.

 

 

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1 minute ago, watcher of the night said:

The only thing that Protagoras was good at is name calling. You must be Balon reincarnation alongside with him because just as Balon you ignore the very reason why he had an aligned interest with Robb and conflict of interest with the Lannister/Tyrell allience. And it had nothing to do with the fact whether he could capture Casterly Rock at the moment or not.

Robb wanted independence hence the aligned interest.

Lannister/Tyrell alience wanted a unified 7k hence the conflict of interest.

Neither you nor Protagoras nor enyone else made any observation that would conflict with this assessment

Balon wanted more power, power that he could keep. Something that attacking the North could do but was less likely in the Westerlands owing to them being better protected.

Robb was 15 and had decided on independence a few weeks ago and may change his mind a few weeks later. Or should he die his successor give up on independence. Maybe you would have a point if the Starks and the North had a long history of trying to regain independence but they had not.

Balon did not think Robb was going to win. He bet on the more likely winner and was 100% right. Good military decision.