Bonkers

Could Viserys have known who Dany was...?

23 posts in this topic

I have been considering the identity of Dany for a little while, and I think that as Quaithe is telling her to remember who she is all the time we can safely assume she is not person she thinks she is.  As R+L=J is so widely accepted it is often difficult to reconsider the idea, but I honestly think that Dany has a large chance of being the baby born at that tower, not Jon.  (Yes, baby swap at Starfall)

As this is not a post on the theory itself, I won't go into it in depth as it has been explained by others and it's easy to find great posts on the theory elsewhere.  HOWEVER, I did want to share some thoughts in regards to Viserys on the topic, as the common points against the theory of R+L=D are 'what about Viserys knowing she is his sister?  He tells her the story of her birth and hates her for killing their mother' etc. 

I think it could be likely he knew she was Rhaegars daughter, his temper, madness and obsession with being the rightful King only add to this....if only he had had a POV chapter!

Let's say Dany is Rhaegars daughter with Lyanna, this means that Dany is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, and ruler of Westeros.  Think about how if Prince Charles (Rhaegar) in England dies before the Queen (Aerys), William (Dany) still inherits the crown, not Charles' (Rhaegar's) siblings. 

The male only heir is an important law to mention here, as we know that women didn't inherit, just men - but if Viserys was paranoid and obsessed then he was likely thinking that Dany would have him killed to steal the throne for herself, and the fact that he wanted the throne for himself makes him super determined to stop her ever claiming it. If she is his little sister he can marry her off, but if she is his niece and rightful heir to the throne then he isn't in  a position to do that.  By constantly overbearing her power and making certain she had no ideas of authority over him, he ensures she has no notion of her right to be Queen, of her true identity or her true birthright. And sure, he could just kill her off, but she presents a great bargaining tool and is viewed by him as an object of value to sell. 

Before he died Aerys names Viserys as his lawful heir, thinking that all Rheagar's children had died and he was the only remaining Targ heir.  So, Viserys spends some time being told he is the heir, that he will be King and he is super pumped about it.  Then, out of nowhere, a young Dany is brought to Dragonstone (or perhaps they met up in Dorne) to be raised with the remaining family, Viserys is told who she is, that she is the true heir etc.  (I like to think that she came with her wetnurse - Ashara Dayne, as she had Jon she was able to be the wetnurse in disguise for Dany)

Perhaps the Queen Rhaella was still alive at this time, perhaps she died birthing a stillborn, perhaps she was never pregnant at all.  What if Viserys killed his mother because of her knowledge and support of Dany's birthright and identity?  What if his resentment of her 'killing' her mother in childbirth wasn't the whole truth?  What if he resented her for forcing him to take drastic measures to ensure she isn't told who she really is?  What if he has lied to Dany her whole life about how she was born, who she is, what her position is and where she lived?  What if they were taken to Dorne after the death of the Queen and Dany was told that it was somewhere else?  The lemon tree may be in Dorne, but Dany may not know that she was in Dorne.  Of course, it is likely also that this could have been done for obvious safety reasons to protect the kids.  All these 'what if's could be reason's for his behaviour and bitterness. 

I feel like the argument for Dany being Rhaegar's child and heir by mentioning Viserys' actions and involvement in the story, to be somewhat backed up by his actions.  He could very easily have been giving deliberate misinformation to Dany to push her down and keep her true identity from her.  

 

So in short, just wanted to put it out there, that Viserys involvement in the story regarding Dany's childhood is not really that concrete to use as an argument against the R+L=D theory.  Personally, R+L=J is a pretty solid theory in my opinion, but the one bug I get is the 'Who is Dany?' .... I just don't think Quaithe tells her to remember who she is just for shits and giggles.  It is important.  I think R+L=D could still be on the table. Peace!

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Even if she was s legitimate child of Rhaegar she would not be ahead of Viserys if succession.  The Targaryens practiced agnatic primogeniture, which means a female can only get the crown if there are no other if male heirs.  Technically, Robert Barratheon was closer than Daenerys through his Targaryen grandmother, even without right of conquest... If all the Targaryans except Daenerys had died peacefully of natural causes, he would have been next in line to the Iron Throne.

Basically, unless Aegon is the real thing, once Viserys died, Daenerys would have been the usurper.

Edited by Melisandre's White Pubes

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On May 17, 2016 at 8:04 PM, Melisandre's White Pubes said:

Even if she was s legitimate child of Rhaegar she would not be ahead of Viserys if succession.  The Targaryens practiced agnatic primogeniture, which means a female can only get the crown if there are no other if male heirs.  Technically, Robert Barratheon was closer than Daenerys through his Targaryen grandmother, even without right of conquest... If all the Targaryans except Daenerys had died peacefully of natural causes, he would have been next in line to the Iron Throne.

Basically, unless Aegon is the real thing, once Viserys died, Daenerys would have been the usurper.

I'm not so sure of that…if Robert Baratheon's grandmother had any male siblings, or even uncles, their descendants would be before him in the succession.

Can anyone figure out who would be the legitimate heir if something killed off all the living Targaryans?  

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Bastards would normally have a right to inheritance, no matter who their parents were. Normally what would happen under those circumstances (in the case of nobles), the king would appoint someone from court as the heir.

In any case, what is likely to happen is that Tyrion is Rhaegar's bastard brother, so if there were no other more legitimate heirs, he would probably end up king.

Oh, and Ashara is probably Daenery's mother, and my guess is that she is Quaithe. Quaithe is described as having "shining wet eyes" when first meeting Dany. Shining with joy and wet with tears as a mother would when meeting a long lost daughter?

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Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, it is known. Ned takes him in because he is his nephew, his blood. Dany has no connection to Ned. 

I do have some doubt about Dany's true identity though. Maybe she was just a girl with Targ features... who knows...

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On 17/5/2016 at 4:04 AM, Melisandre's White Pubes said:

The Targaryens practiced agnatic primogeniture,

We don't know that. The only thing that we know is that after the Counsil 101 the Targs seem to follow the Salic law. 

On 8/4/2016 at 2:55 PM, Bonkers said:

as the common points against the theory of R+L=D are 'what about Viserys knowing she is his sister? 

This is not a theory it's a fan fiction. The only proof that the people who are against this fan fiction need is the fact that Dany was born eight or nine mounths after Lyanna's death.

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As was pointed out by Jon's Queen Consort we don't know that the Targs practice agnatic primogeniture, but even if they did Robert Barratheon's claim would not be valid because it passes through a woman

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On 7/10/2016 at 8:01 AM, Duncan_The_Short said:

As was pointed out by Jon's Queen Consort we don't know that the Targs practice agnatic primogeniture, but even if they did Robert Barratheon's claim would not be valid because it passes through a woman

Robert's claim is one of possession: he has the Iron Throne. He doesn't rule as a Targaryen, but as the first of the Baratheon kings. The fact that he has Targ blood is window dressing.

Edited by Light a wight tonight
Clarity

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18 hours ago, Light a wight tonight said:

Robert's claim is one of possession: he has the Iron Throne. He doesn't rule as a Targaryen, but as the first of the Baratheon kings. The fact that he has Targ blood is window dressing.

Agreed.  I should have quoted the original posts, but I was responding to the argument that under the rules of agnatic primogeniture Robert Baratheon's claim to the Targaryen Throne is more valid than Dany's 

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40 minutes ago, Duncan_The_Short said:

Agreed.  I should have quoted the original posts, but I was responding to the argument that under the rules of agnatic primogeniture Robert Baratheon's claim to the Targaryen Throne is more valid than Dany's 

Robert may be salacious but he's not Salic.

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On 4/8/2016 at 7:55 AM, Bonkers said:

I have been considering the identity of Dany for a little while, and I think that as Quaithe is telling her to remember who she is all the time we can safely assume she is not person she thinks she is.  As R+L=J is so widely accepted it is often difficult to reconsider the idea, but I honestly think that Dany has a large chance of being the baby born at that tower, not Jon.  (Yes, baby swap at Starfall)

As this is not a post on the theory itself, I won't go into it in depth as it has been explained by others and it's easy to find great posts on the theory elsewhere.  HOWEVER, I did want to share some thoughts in regards to Viserys on the topic, as the common points against the theory of R+L=D are 'what about Viserys knowing she is his sister?  He tells her the story of her birth and hates her for killing their mother' etc. 

I think it could be likely he knew she was Rhaegars daughter, his temper, madness and obsession with being the rightful King only add to this....if only he had had a POV chapter!

Let's say Dany is Rhaegars daughter with Lyanna, this means that Dany is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, and ruler of Westeros.  Think about how if Prince Charles (Rhaegar) in England dies before the Queen (Aerys), William (Dany) still inherits the crown, not Charles' (Rhaegar's) siblings. 

The male only heir is an important law to mention here, as we know that women didn't inherit, just men - but if Viserys was paranoid and obsessed then he was likely thinking that Dany would have him killed to steal the throne for herself, and the fact that he wanted the throne for himself makes him super determined to stop her ever claiming it. If she is his little sister he can marry her off, but if she is his niece and rightful heir to the throne then he isn't in  a position to do that.  By constantly overbearing her power and making certain she had no ideas of authority over him, he ensures she has no notion of her right to be Queen, of her true identity or her true birthright. And sure, he could just kill her off, but she presents a great bargaining tool and is viewed by him as an object of value to sell. 

Before he died Aerys names Viserys as his lawful heir, thinking that all Rheagar's children had died and he was the only remaining Targ heir.  So, Viserys spends some time being told he is the heir, that he will be King and he is super pumped about it.  Then, out of nowhere, a young Dany is brought to Dragonstone (or perhaps they met up in Dorne) to be raised with the remaining family, Viserys is told who she is, that she is the true heir etc.  (I like to think that she came with her wetnurse - Ashara Dayne, as she had Jon she was able to be the wetnurse in disguise for Dany)

Perhaps the Queen Rhaella was still alive at this time, perhaps she died birthing a stillborn, perhaps she was never pregnant at all.  What if Viserys killed his mother because of her knowledge and support of Dany's birthright and identity?  What if his resentment of her 'killing' her mother in childbirth wasn't the whole truth?  What if he resented her for forcing him to take drastic measures to ensure she isn't told who she really is?  What if he has lied to Dany her whole life about how she was born, who she is, what her position is and where she lived?  What if they were taken to Dorne after the death of the Queen and Dany was told that it was somewhere else?  The lemon tree may be in Dorne, but Dany may not know that she was in Dorne.  Of course, it is likely also that this could have been done for obvious safety reasons to protect the kids.  All these 'what if's could be reason's for his behaviour and bitterness. 

I feel like the argument for Dany being Rhaegar's child and heir by mentioning Viserys' actions and involvement in the story, to be somewhat backed up by his actions.  He could very easily have been giving deliberate misinformation to Dany to push her down and keep her true identity from her.  

 

So in short, just wanted to put it out there, that Viserys involvement in the story regarding Dany's childhood is not really that concrete to use as an argument against the R+L=D theory.  Personally, R+L=J is a pretty solid theory in my opinion, but the one bug I get is the 'Who is Dany?' .... I just don't think Quaithe tells her to remember who she is just for shits and giggles.  It is important.  I think R+L=D could still be on the table. Peace!

I read those theories and the reasons leading to R+A=D sound pretty iffy to me. But that could be contemplated as slightly possible, timewise. But one thing to be sure of, Dany is NOT Lyanna's daughter. Lyanna couldn't have TWO children 8 months apart, since GRRM officially confirmed that Jon is older by 8-9 months. The timing is all wrong. When Ned arrived at the Tower, Lyanna just finished giving birth (lying in a bed of blood) to Jon and even if she had the girl too, I don't see Ned taking the boy and somehow allowing the girl to be smuggled to Viserys/Rhaella to exile???

BTW. By the time Aerys names Viserys as his heir, only Rhaegar died. Rhaegars children are alive and well in the same Red Keep as Aerys is, since he refused to let them and their mother to escape. He dies first and only then the Elia and her children do.  Aerys purposely disinherited Rhaegar's children by naming Viserys as his heir.

As for Quaithe's remarks. She only tells them because Dany started confusing "Mother of Dragons" to being "Mother" of all slaves and basically locked her dragons up while trying to play nice. Quaithe reminds her that she is a Fire and Blood, Dragon blood and should not play mother to unruly slavers bay while ignoring her true children, dragons.

As for Viserys, he was 7 year old at a time, and Queen Rhaella still had some guards and servants with her, including Darry. I doubt Viserys would have the opportunity to assassinate Rhaella, he probably was just a scared little boy huddling in a corner at the time. 

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31 minutes ago, Light a wight tonight said:

Robert may be salacious but he's not Salic.

Lol

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On ‎7‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 5:51 AM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

This is not a theory it's a fan fiction. The only proof that the people who are against this fan fiction need is the fact that Dany was born eight or nine mounths after Lyanna's death.

Perhaps you can correct me if I am wrong. I thought the GRRM quote was that Dany was born "8 to 9 months after Jon's birth", not "8 to 9 months after Lyanna's death".

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9 hours ago, Raisin(g) Bran 2 Greenseer said:

Perhaps you can correct me if I am wrong. I thought the GRRM quote was that Dany was born "8 to 9 months after Jon's birth", not "8 to 9 months after Lyanna's death".

<_< Really now? Ok if we nitpick he said about Jon's birth.

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6 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

<_< Really now? Ok if we nitpick he said about Jon's birth.

I only say that because the quote leaves open the possibility that Lyanna did not die immediately and perhaps there is more to the story than "Jon was born and Lyanna died".

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Yes, it's 8-9 months after Jon's birth rather than Lyanna's death. The timing is all very weird around then. But Jon being Brandon and Ashara's son, with Daenerys as Rhaegar and Lyanna's, kind of fits...

Whatever, we'll find out about that when we find out. I do think it's interesting to consider the actions of Viserys with regard to Daenerys's potential secret identity. Somebody showed me this hot slice of theory the other day which includes some stuff on Viserys:

Quote

Dany I, is literally one big game of “dress up”. It’s literally a chapter where they specifically go over many times how they make Dany look like she’s a princess, of how she’s high blood, etc. And Dany’s uncomfortable through it all, Viserys doesn’t think it will work, etc. It’s all rather odd behaviour and actions for someone who actually is, you know an actual princess.

Something to consider next time I read the books: I think, like Ned, Viserys is one of those characters who perhaps knew a lot more than he let on, and then died before he could say anything.

But I don't think he killed his mother.

Edited by Illyrio Mo'Parties

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How anyone believes that Jon isn't the product of Rhaegar and Lyanna really blows my mind.  It all comes down to this,  to be quite honest:

 

D and D had to correctly guess who Jons mother was,  and at the time,  most of the info you have for your fan fiction (I won't call it a theory bc it's awful from every angle) wasn't out yet....a 7 year old Viserys killing his mother ? That's the best you got?  Your reaching very, very far...

 

R + L = J. Get over it, guys.  You really thunk the show would change something that major around?  Honestly,  you all really truly blow my mind.  Your wishing and wanting so hard that Jon isn't Rhaegars, look at all the stuff you guys come up with. It's honestly mad. 

 

 

Edited by BoltonsBastard
I do what I want

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On 07/07/2016 at 10:51 PM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

snip

already mentioned....deleted post

Edited by Bonkers

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On 02/08/2016 at 8:05 AM, BoltonsBastard said:

How anyone believes that Jon isn't the product of Rhaegar and Lyanna really blows my mind.  It all comes down to this,  to be quite honest:

 

D and D had to correctly guess who Jons mother was

No, they gave an answer, and GRRM smiled.  They got the gig.  We know what George is like, he holds his cards very close to his chest.  Do you honestly believe that he would ask that question "who do you think is Jon Snow's mother?", have them answer, give them a job and THEN allow them to openly and often tell that event to the world that's why they got the gig?  Way to spoil over 20 years of plot development.

They said nothing about him confirming the answer.  They have never (from memory) told us WHAT their answer was.  All we know is that they went with R+L=J in the show; simple, fan favourite and no messy extra plot lines to tie in. 

On 02/08/2016 at 8:05 AM, BoltonsBastard said:

 most of the info you have for your fan fiction (I won't call it a theory bc it's awful from every angle) wasn't out yet....a 7 year old Viserys killing his mother ? That's the best you got?  Your reaching very, very far...

 

R + L = J. Get over it, guys.  You really thunk the show would change something that major around?  Honestly,  you all really truly blow my mind.  Your wishing and wanting so hard that Jon isn't Rhaegars, look at all the stuff you guys come up with. It's honestly mad.

No, it is not a theory, more of a discussion on ideas related to Viserys' strange behaviour regarding Dany and her identity.  I don't recall ever stating it as a theory.  It isn't even necessarily something I believe in myself, just a discussion and sharing of ideas. 

Edited by Bonkers

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