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Is Brienne grey?


Seaworth'sShipmate

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Is there anything "grey" or ambiguous about Brienne of Tarth, from a moral perspective?

She really seems like one of the most "moral" characters in the series, possibly ahead of even Jon Snow and Davos Seaworth.

While both Jon and Davos are good people (more or less) Brienne's cause seems more unambiguously good, unpolitical than either of the above two. Brienne's cause (finding Arya and Sansa) isn't really political and few people can suffer from her pursuit of what she believes is right (except for Sansa/Arya.. if she ever found them. Heh.)

 

In a world of grey characters, Brienne of Tarth stands out as unusually white. Is there any grey.. or even black to her?

I do fear she may die soon. She will never locate Sansa and Arya.. and does she fill an essential role in the story?

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Well she was supposed to fight against the Lannisters - Renly's claim was because a bastard Lannister was on the IronThrone. Then Renly died and she promised to Catelyn to take a Lannister to Kingslanding and trade him for her dauther and failed miserably and became BFF with the Kingslayer Lannister who broke Bran's legs (Cat's son) and sent his regards in the Red Wedding.

Now she promised Lady Stoneheart to bring her Jaime so she could kill him...

I think there is plenty of grey in Brienne and many contradictions.

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16 minutes ago, Seaworth'sShipmate said:

Is there anything "grey" or ambiguous about Brienne of Tarth, from a moral perspective?

She really seems like one of the most "moral" characters in the series, possibly ahead of even Jon Snow and Davos Seaworth.

While both Jon and Davos are good people (more or less) Brienne's cause seems more unambiguously good, unpolitical than either of the above two. Brienne's cause (finding Arya and Sansa) isn't really political and few people can suffer from her pursuit of what she believes is right (except for Sansa/Arya.. if she ever found them. Heh.)

 

In a world of grey characters, Brienne of Tarth stands out as unusually white. Is there any grey.. or even black to her?

I do fear she may die soon. She will never locate Sansa and Arya.. and does she fill an essential role in the story?

I genuinely believe her to be white as you can get in her world. Only 1 hint of grey I suppose you could argue is that she did something dishonest or against her word in order to save herself from Lady Stoneheart (either agreeing to kill Jaime or lying about agreeing to kill Jaime). 

I think as a character she brings out a sense of what every true and loyal knight should be. Unfortunately I think hers is not a story that will end well.

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I agree with you that she stands out as one of the few good people...but she hasn't been forced into the rough choices that so many of the other 'good guys' have had to deal with.  At the end of ADwD, it would appear that she's either luring Jaimie into a trap or leaving Podrick to his fate with the BWB.  I'm not saying she's a bad person, she's seldom face the "no good choices, just varying degrees of bad" issues that come with experience and greater authority. 

 

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She's at the whiter end of the spectrum, but I suppose a corollary to that is that she is relatively powerless. As a knight errant she is responsible only for how good she (and her small retinue) is, so she doesn't have to make the compromises that someone with greater authority might have to, even though the ones that strive to be good  have the opportunity to make things better for more people if they make the right calls.

 

edit: or what daccu65 already said.

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29 minutes ago, Buried Treasure said:

She's at the whiter end of the spectrum, but I suppose a corollary to that is that she is relatively powerless. As a knight errant she is responsible only for how good she (and her small retinue) is, so she doesn't have to make the compromises that someone with greater authority might have to, even though the ones that strive to be good  have the opportunity to make things better for more people if they make the right calls.

 

edit: or what daccu65 already said.

Then again there is Tyrion. I know he served as "hand of the king" but even during that period, and definitly for most of the series he has functioned as his "own man." Even when he was in his family's good graces, he seemed somewhat alone, almost like an independent operator of his own world.

I like Tyrion and love his show portrayal, but he is no hero. He is certainly grey with definite tinges of blackness.

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I’d say Brienne is going to have some tough decisions to make. Her last POV was in FfC.  

The Hound snatched the end of the rope from the man holding it. "Let's see if she can dance," he said, and gave a yank.

Brienne felt the hemp constricting, digging into her skin, jerking her chin upward. Ser Hyle was cursing them eloquently, but not the boy. Podrick never lifted his eyes, not even when his feet were jerked up off the ground. If this is another dream, it is time for me to awaken. If this is real, it is time for me to die. All she could see was Podrick, the noose around his thin neck, his legs twitching. Her mouth opened. Pod was kicking, choking, dying. Brienne sucked the air in desperately, even as the rope was strangling her. Nothing had ever hurt so much.

She screamed a word. FfC Brienne VIII

She then shows up again in Jaime’s one and only POV in Dance.

Jaime scrambled to his feet. "My lady. I had not thought to see you again so soon." Gods be good, she looks ten years older than when I saw her last. And what's happened to her face? "That bandage … you've been wounded …"

"A bite." She touched the hilt of her sword, the sword that he had given her. Oathkeeper. "My lord, you gave me a quest."

"The girl. Have you found her?"

"I have," said Brienne, Maid of Tarth.

"Where is she?"

"A day's ride. I can take you to her, ser  but you will need to come alone. Elsewise, the Hound will kill her."  DwD Jaime I

 

There lies the dilemma.  What did Brienne say that kept her from death at the end of the rope? Is she really going to lead Jaime into a trap?

Is she dying because of the bite from Biter and going to make her last stand and go out in a blaze of glory, saving both Pod & Jaime?

Then there is that thing of Lem wearing Sandor’s helmet. If word get’s back to Sandor about someone parading around pretending to be him, he just might grab Stranger and go kick some arse.

<excited> Lot’s of stuff to look forward to in the WoW.

Brienne made to many promises/vows. All in good faith. She’s not going to be able to keep them all. She will be as the catchword is “grey.” She will have to choose which promise/vow is important. I think it’s called, “between a rock and a hard place.”

 

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I never understood one thing though - why Brienne never questioned Renly decision to crown himself before Stannis? If she is so morally upright about honor and all such values - how come she never gave thought to the fact that Stannis was elder and had more right on throne than Renly? 

 

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42 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I’d say Brienne is going to have some tough decisions to make. Her last POV was in FfC.  

The Hound snatched the end of the rope from the man holding it. "Let's see if she can dance," he said, and gave a yank.

Brienne felt the hemp constricting, digging into her skin, jerking her chin upward. Ser Hyle was cursing them eloquently, but not the boy. Podrick never lifted his eyes, not even when his feet were jerked up off the ground. If this is another dream, it is time for me to awaken. If this is real, it is time for me to die. All she could see was Podrick, the noose around his thin neck, his legs twitching. Her mouth opened. Pod was kicking, choking, dying. Brienne sucked the air in desperately, even as the rope was strangling her. Nothing had ever hurt so much.

She screamed a word. FfC Brienne VIII

She then shows up again in Jaime’s one and only POV in Dance.

Jaime scrambled to his feet. "My lady. I had not thought to see you again so soon." Gods be good, she looks ten years older than when I saw her last. And what's happened to her face? "That bandage … you've been wounded …"

"A bite." She touched the hilt of her sword, the sword that he had given her. Oathkeeper. "My lord, you gave me a quest."

"The girl. Have you found her?"

"I have," said Brienne, Maid of Tarth.

"Where is she?"

"A day's ride. I can take you to her, ser  but you will need to come alone. Elsewise, the Hound will kill her."  DwD Jaime I

 

There lies the dilemma.  What did Brienne say that kept her from death at the end of the rope? Is she really going to lead Jaime into a trap?

Is she dying because of the bite from Biter and going to make her last stand and go out in a blaze of glory, saving both Pod & Jaime?

Then there is that thing of Lem wearing Sandor’s helmet. If word get’s back to Sandor about someone parading around pretending to be him, he just might grab Stranger and go kick some arse.

<excited> Lot’s of stuff to look forward to in the WoW.

Brienne made to many promises/vows. All in good faith. She’s not going to be able to keep them all. She will be as the catchword is “grey.” She will have to choose which promise/vow is important. I think it’s called, “between a rock and a hard place.”

 

I agree, I think in Brienne's case and a couple of other character's cases that we're first shown her whiter side, while seeing seeing for example Jaime's blacker side first.  Then as the story progresses we start to see Jaime's whiter side... makes sense we'll see some of Brienne's blacker side.  

While I do believe she's certainly a whiter character than most, I think her arc serves to show us that even the whitest of characters face decisions that can paint them in more of a shade of grey.  We just happen to see a whole lot of blacker sides of characters early on than we do much of the whiter side of many characters.  Then we also have lots of grey from a good number of characters as well that ends up making people like Brienne stand out sooner in her 'whiteness'.

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Brienne is probably the most morally "white" major character in the series, ahead of even Davos and Samwell.  This means that in the next book she will likely do something that the audience finds morally repugnant, or at least highly distasteful, in order to keep her vows.  One possibility would be allow an innocent to suffer or die, or to endanger one.  (Podrick maybe?:frown5:)  In any case, I believe we will see her darker side, whatever that is.  I also feel the same way about Sam and Davos.  Moral crises are coming for them too. 

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2 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I’d say Brienne is going to have some tough decisions to make. Her last POV was in FfC.  

The Hound snatched the end of the rope from the man holding it. "Let's see if she can dance," he said, and gave a yank.

Brienne felt the hemp constricting, digging into her skin, jerking her chin upward. Ser Hyle was cursing them eloquently, but not the boy. Podrick never lifted his eyes, not even when his feet were jerked up off the ground. If this is another dream, it is time for me to awaken. If this is real, it is time for me to die. All she could see was Podrick, the noose around his thin neck, his legs twitching. Her mouth opened. Pod was kicking, choking, dying. Brienne sucked the air in desperately, even as the rope was strangling her. Nothing had ever hurt so much.

She screamed a word. FfC Brienne VIII

She then shows up again in Jaime’s one and only POV in Dance.

Jaime scrambled to his feet. "My lady. I had not thought to see you again so soon." Gods be good, she looks ten years older than when I saw her last. And what's happened to her face? "That bandage … you've been wounded …"

"A bite." She touched the hilt of her sword, the sword that he had given her. Oathkeeper. "My lord, you gave me a quest."

"The girl. Have you found her?"

"I have," said Brienne, Maid of Tarth.

"Where is she?"

"A day's ride. I can take you to her, ser  but you will need to come alone. Elsewise, the Hound will kill her."  DwD Jaime I

 

There lies the dilemma.  What did Brienne say that kept her from death at the end of the rope? Is she really going to lead Jaime into a trap?

Is she dying because of the bite from Biter and going to make her last stand and go out in a blaze of glory, saving both Pod & Jaime?

Then there is that thing of Lem wearing Sandor’s helmet. If word get’s back to Sandor about someone parading around pretending to be him, he just might grab Stranger and go kick some arse.

<excited> Lot’s of stuff to look forward to in the WoW.

Brienne made to many promises/vows. All in good faith. She’s not going to be able to keep them all. She will be as the catchword is “grey.” She will have to choose which promise/vow is important. I think it’s called, “between a rock and a hard place.”

 

I believe GRRM confirmed the word she screamed was "sword" - as in, she answered the question, take up the sword and find the Kingslayer or dangle from a noose (or however it was worded). I can look up the ssm if you want it.

i agree with you though, the LSH-Jaime-Brienne confrontation is one of the things I am most anticipating. And I believe that Lem wearing the Hound's helm will be important...though I don't quite know how yet. Possibly it plays into the deception of Jaime - maybe Brienne lures him somewhere that Lem in the Hound's helm waits with "Sansa" (Uh...Pod).

i also think she will meet Sandor Clegane. Both are (IMO) going to be tied into Sansa's arc somehow, and it will be interesting to see Sandor, who has started on a path towards a less cynical and hateful life, interact with Brienne, who has gradually been exposed to a more brutal and unpleasant way of life that has destroyed her initial idealistic views of vows and knighthood.

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2 hours ago, Whomping.Willow said:

I never understood one thing though - why Brienne never questioned Renly decision to crown himself before Stannis? If she is so morally upright about honor and all such values - how come she never gave thought to the fact that Stannis was elder and had more right on throne than Renly? 

 

She has to be practical/reasonable at some level. First, her father Selwyn declared for Renly. Second, she honestly likes Renly better than Stannis and loves him. She has nothing to gain from declaring for Stannis and everything to lose.

She definitly got very self-righteous/full of herself in the show when she stated that Renly was "murdered" by his older brother ( can one murder another if they are in open rebellion against you?) but I don't think she was bad for doing what she did, nor even for failing to support/swear fealty to her "rightful" king, Joffrey.

She is one of the few characters whose film version really grates on me compared to their book version (Ramsay is the other big one!)

 

 

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2 hours ago, Whomping.Willow said:

I never understood one thing though - why Brienne never questioned Renly decision to crown himself before Stannis? If she is so morally upright about honor and all such values - how come she never gave thought to the fact that Stannis was elder and had more right on throne than Renly? 

 

This. Renly did not have a right to the throne, and there was nothing hinting that he'd make a particularly good ruler. But she was convinced that he'd be the best king and pledged her sword to him anyway, because of her schoolgirl crush on him.

Also, you could argue that she's not a very dutiful heir to Tarth. She is her father's only child, but she rides off to join Renly, then joins Catelyn, then sets off for an impossible mission that could take her years, instead of staying and protecting her island (which ended up falling to the Golden Company).

But I don't think these minor "faults" are enough to qualify her as a "grey" character. She's very white for now. Unfortunately, she'll probably be a lot more jaded by the end of her story.

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4 hours ago, Whomping.Willow said:

I never understood one thing though - why Brienne never questioned Renly decision to crown himself before Stannis? If she is so morally upright about honor and all such values - how come she never gave thought to the fact that Stannis was elder and had more right on throne than Renly? 

 

For one thing, at the time the rebellion started, the allegations of incest had not been widely distributed.  Everyone (including Renly himself) believed Joffrey was Robert's son, as was Tommen.  Essentially, it was a rebellion against Lannister (Cersei/Tywin) rule.  In that sense, everyone is equally a rebel.

There were other factors at play.  Renly was kind to her when he visited Tarth, unlike most others.  This she remembered.  Also, her father was Renly's bannerman. Lastly, she may well have believed, like many others, that Stannis would make a bad king.  Given his rigidity and penchant for holding grudges, this is not an unreasonable conclusion.  Given all the circumstances, her support for Renly isn't all that surprising or any indication of lack of moral fiber.

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Brienne isn't morally perfect, but one must have impossibly high standards to hold that against her. She is, after all, one of the lightest grey of all the characters. Supporting Renly over Stannis is not something intrinsically worthy of criticism. There are many justified reasons why one should do so, although it seems as if she did so for less honourable reasons.

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6 hours ago, Whomping.Willow said:

I never understood one thing though - why Brienne never questioned Renly decision to crown himself before Stannis? If she is so morally upright about honor and all such values - how come she never gave thought to the fact that Stannis was elder and had more right on throne than Renly? 

 


Even if she didn't love Renly he's also her father's overlord, in bastard feudalism the loyalty of a retainer generally lies with their immediate lord rather than with their king and in any case Stannis to many is just a bitter uncle making a grab for the throne. He has a stronger claim but so does Joffrey and Tommen and she's backing Renly in usurping them anyway. 

Then again perhaps she feels her personal honour depends on serving people she feels are worthy of her service, Renly, Cat and Jaime when he's back in King's Landing, she doesn't take Robb for her king when she enters Cat's service, she serves no king after Renly's death. I don't think deviating from the feudal structure is inherently immoral even if Stannis' claim was backed up with proof and post Renly's assassination I don't think she'd accept him even if he won the war, she'd likely think him unworthy of her service because of the manner of Renly's death. 

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What's so interesting about Brienne is as she is such a "good" guy how she could be so attracted to such a "bad" guy as Jaime.   Still she was and brought out the very best in him.   She is unable to fulfill her oaths to Renly because of his death and consequential lost cause.  When Cat was killed she did not disavow herself and redoubled her efforts to find Sansa and/or Arya...with substantial help from Jaime.    I am hoping therein lies some of the possibility LSH may be convinced to turn the dynamic duo out together in search of her daughters.   Perhaps there will be some credit for both of them.  

All we have is the last Jamie chapter in ADWD which is left pretty wide open.   We don't know that Brienne hasn't got LSH's henchmen, Pod & Hyle or even picked up an unsuspected tail right around the corner from Penny Tree.  We know no more about the task Brienne is set to than Pod's fate.  

This hounds helm sure seems to have a rough affect on it's wearers.   Hard to picture the basically decent Lem who towed the line for Beric Dondarion pulling nooses for LSH.   There is more wrong here than we are being told.  

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