Ser Frasier of House Crane Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 If Tywin's aim was to get Jaime back as his heir, and with Joffrey having created precedent in dismissing Barristan from the Kingsguard, why not dismiss Jaime instead of promoting him to Lord Commander of the Kingsguard? You could argue that with Jaime captured at the time, he's not really fulfilling his Kingsguardly duties, so why not put someone in as his replacement? That way, if Jaime survives, Tywin gets his heir and gets Joffrey to put Jaime back in the line of succession? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paxter Redwyne Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 tywin was really lazy with taking jaime out of kingsguard. He could do it even during robert's reign if he asked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor's Aunt Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 Jaimie didn't want to leave. He would have left Cersai after all. Being the heir of Casterly Rock would have meant to go home and being castellan until Tywin dies. And to marry any highborn girl picked by Tywin of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Frasier of House Crane Posted April 10, 2016 Author Share Posted April 10, 2016 5 minutes ago, Hodor's Aunt said: Jaimie didn't want to leave. He would have left Cersai after all. Being the heir of Casterly Rock would have meant to go home and being castellan until Tywin dies. And to marry any highborn girl picked by Tywin of course. But why would Tywin care what Jaime wanted? If Joffrey decreed that Jaime had to go back to Casterly Rock, he would've been forced to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DasallmaechtigeJ Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 A lot of people overestimate Tywin's influence concerning this decision. A warrior king like Robert would never have taken Jaime off the Kingsguard against his will. Also during Joffreys reign, he would have a hard time forcing anyone off the Kingsguard. Joffrey is unstable, yet he like Jaime more than Tywin. Without Joffrey's approval, there is nothing he can do, and as long as Jaime openly objects Joffrey is unlikely to take his uncle off the Kingsguard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor's Aunt Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 1 hour ago, Ser Frasier of House Crane said: But why would Tywin care what Jaime wanted? If Joffrey decreed that Jaime had to go back to Casterly Rock, he would've been forced to do so. What would Tywin do, if Jaimie would ignore that command and not return to casterly rock? Kill his only possible heir? Weaken him publically by punishing him (giving other parts of the familiy the possibility to rebell after his death). You have to be very carefull if it comes to the heir if you happen to be a king or a "high lord". Tywin knows that he has to persuade him. To force him is risky specially in the middle of a war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
True.Kitn902 Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 Tywin didn't want Jamie to hate him is the main reason Tywin didn't have him removed, imagine what Jamie would do if Tywin further made people question Jamie's honour. It might force Jamie away from CR forever. Also Joffrey seemed to like Jamie a lot more then Tywin anyways..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 Jaime was raised to Lord Commander when Tywin was still warring in the riverlands. So at the moment, he had more pressing concerns. I think it would only have been a matter of time before Jaime was removed from the KG. As long as Cersei remained Queen Regent, she would have blocked any move to dismiss Jaime. But she was going to be married off in any event, so it was only a matter of time before Tywin took charge. Whether Jaime would go meekly back to CR is another question, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GallowsKnight Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 I'm really confused by this thread. He pretty much was just about to and Jaime refused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigger Warning Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 Jaime's too stubborn to just skulk off back to the Rock like his father wants if he was forcibly removed from the King's Guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Frasier of House Crane Posted April 11, 2016 Author Share Posted April 11, 2016 36 minutes ago, GallowsKnight said: I'm really confused by this thread. He pretty much was just about to and Jaime refused. But can he refuse it, though? Barristan couldn't refuse his dismissal. If it's by royal decree, Jaime has to surrender his white cloak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaibaman Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 2 hours ago, Ser Frasier of House Crane said: But can he refuse it, though? Barristan couldn't refuse his dismissal. If it's by royal decree, Jaime has to surrender his white cloak. Barristan at least had grounds for dismissal given his advanced age. Jaime on the other hand did not. So even if Tywin ordered either Robert or Joffrey to dismiss Jaime there has to be a good pretense for it otherwise people will be raising their eyebrows at his removal. And knowing Tywin his family's reputation meant more to him than even his son. But when Jaime lost his hand, people saw that he was no longer capable of protecting his king anymore so getting him dismissed from the Kingsguard then wouldn't have been a real shock to anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Edd of House Tollet Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 I don't if Tywin would continue to insist with Jaime had he not died. The last we saw the two of them together, Tywin seemed to be pissed enough already with his children to argue about it and let Jaime deal with his decisions. On the other hand, if Twyin survived, he was planning to send Cersei back to CR. Maybe that would make Jaime give up the Kingsguard. At that point, he wasn't completly tired of Cersei's bullshit as he is at the end of AFFC/ADWD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Jaime killed the King. Mad or not, I'm sure many would have demanded his head or him being sent to the Wall. Robert kept him alive and in the KG as a favor to Tywin: ask more of him would be pushing for something Robert wasn't going to give. Remember Robert didn't like Tywin, nor the Lannisters in general. Had Tywin kept insisting, maybe Robert could have say "you know what? I think the Wall could do fine with a man like Jaime. Byes". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter Rose Crown Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Joffrey was a minor. He shouldn't have been able to dismiss or assign anyone. Tywin was hand, he spoke with the King's voice. If he wanted Jaime dismissed, all he had to do was say it. The regent was Cersei and Tywin had control of her. Like catelyn says to Robb, a child sees something in his path and tries to knock it down. It isn't as easy as forcing Jaime. Once he's dismissed from the KG, he can go anywhere, he doesn't have to go to CR and tywin knows that. Better to keep him close so he can try to persuade him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danelle Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 4 hours ago, JonCon's Red Beard said: Jaime killed the King. Mad or not, I'm sure many would have demanded his head or him being sent to the Wall. Robert kept him alive and in the KG as a favor to Tywin: ask more of him would be pushing for something Robert wasn't going to give. Remember Robert didn't like Tywin, nor the Lannisters in general. Had Tywin kept insisting, maybe Robert could have say "you know what? I think the Wall could do fine with a man like Jaime. Byes". I don't think that Robert disliked Tywin but rather he liked to brag that he was too scared to confront Aerys. Let us not forget that Robert insisted that Robert Arryn should be sent to CR. But I agree that Robert allowing Jaime to remain in the KG without receiving any sort of punishment for killing the previous King, was already a big favour. If Tywin shortly after he had given Robert his daughter as a bride, managed to get Jaime pardoned and back to CR as a heir, it would be too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinoiserie Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 On 11. huhtikuuta 2016 at 6:55 AM, Kaibaman said: Barristan at least had grounds for dismissal given his advanced age. Jaime on the other hand did not. So even if Tywin ordered either Robert or Joffrey to dismiss Jaime there has to be a good pretense for it otherwise people will be raising their eyebrows at his removal. And knowing Tywin his family's reputation meant more to him than even his son. But when Jaime lost his hand, people saw that he was no longer capable of protecting his king anymore so getting him dismissed from the Kingsguard then wouldn't have been a real shock to anyone. But after Jaime lost his hand Tywin did have and excuse just to force him out but he did not. On 11. huhtikuuta 2016 at 8:41 AM, King Edd of House Tollet said: I don't if Tywin would continue to insist with Jaime had he not died. The last we saw the two of them together, Tywin seemed to be pissed enough already with his children to argue about it and let Jaime deal with his decisions. The last time Tywin and Jaime saw each other Tywin was unhappy with Jaime true. However after that he sent Oathkeeper to Jaime. Considering that Tywin had wanted a Valyrian steel sword for House Lannister forever and the other sword was going to the king it seems Tywin still saw Jaime as his heir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geddus Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 12 hours ago, Danelle said: But I agree that Robert allowing Jaime to remain in the KG without receiving any sort of punishment for killing the previous King, was already a big favour. If Tywin shortly after he had given Robert his daughter as a bride, managed to get Jaime pardoned and back to CR as a heir, it would be too much. I think if Robert wanted to do Tywin a favour, he would have kicked Jaime out of the Kingsguard - which would have been a far less eyebrow-raising move than keeping him was. I'm pretty sure the Kingslayer kept on guarding the King because it was a slight to Tywin, and because Robert found it funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevets Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 If Tywin forces Jaime off the Kingsguard, he makes an enemy. A bad and powerful enemy. One who has no reason to remain loyal to Joffrey. I seem to recall that Barristan commented that he would join Westeros's true ruler, or something to that effect. I know both Stannis and Renly expected the possibility of his joining up with one of them. So, while Tywin is willing to try and push Jaime out, and push pretty hard, he probably realizes that forcing him out is likely to be counterproductive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 On 4/10/2016 at 11:37 AM, Ser Frasier of House Crane said: If Tywin's aim was to get Jaime back as his heir, and with Joffrey having created precedent in dismissing Barristan from the Kingsguard, why not dismiss Jaime instead of promoting him to Lord Commander of the Kingsguard? You could argue that with Jaime captured at the time, he's not really fulfilling his Kingsguardly duties, so why not put someone in as his replacement? That way, if Jaime survives, Tywin gets his heir and gets Joffrey to put Jaime back in the line of succession? Cersei had Joff's ear, not Tywin. She wanted Jaime to be Lord Commander so they could be together. Tywin was in the rock for most of Joff's life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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