"_____" the Heir - Stark Edition

[StarkofWinterfell]

So we all know the circumstances regarding why Harry Hardyng of the Vale is the heir to the Arryn line, but in a hypothetical world where all of the Stark children are dead, who would be the successor?

Are there any distant relatives that would inherit the name or would the Stark line be extinguished?

[James Steller]

The Karstarks are probably the closest northern house to the Starks. Those Vale cousins Catelyn mentioned might make a claim but the Northmen might prefer a Karstark over some southerner with no experience in the North itself.

[Brlackenwood]

Possible claimants in the North could be

- The Umbers - Greatjon's (great?)-grandmother was a Stark

- I believe there is a certain connection with the Glovers, like a generation or two behind Greatjon's greatgrandmother

- House Cerwyn, through Aregelle Stark

- Karstarks are the closest thing to the Starks in the North, concerning the name, the traditions, and respect, however there was no blood connections in the last ten generations between them (Karstark women married to the Starks, but no vice versa)

Of the southron houses, there are the Waynwoods, Templetons and Corbrays, all descendants of Joselyn Stark, through House Royce

There is also House Rogers, descendants of Brenda Stark

Hypothetically speaking, the southron houses, although only in female line, would have the best claim to the North, but they would never be accepted by the Northerners as their overlords. Most likely it would be one of the Northern houses, probably Karstarks (if for example Harry lives and takes the Stark name)

However, there might be also some distant Stark cousins, scattered trough the North, who are still wearing the Stark name, and could inherit the North if all of the main branch dies out. They just weren't mentioned because they hold no plot importance at this date.

For example, in AWOIAF, there are the two Stark brothers, children of Artos Stark and Lysara Karstark, who are said to have their own descendents.

[Macgregor of the North]

5 hours ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

So we all know the circumstances regarding why Harry Hardyng of the Vale is the heir to the Arryn line, but in a hypothetical world where all of the Stark children are dead, who would be the successor?

Are there any distant relatives that would inherit the name or would the Stark line be extinguished?

Going by Catelyn mentioning the possible heirs from the Vale and them being descended straight from Lord Willam Starks line through Jocelyn id say these would come quite high in contention. Who exactly they are is a tricky matter to find out though. 

I done four pieces recently with a lot of discussion on the Waynwood one. It seems the front runners are possibly Roland Waynwood and Symond Templeton. 

In Rolands case the missing links in the family tree are what made it possible and at the same time impossible to say whether he was the Stark descendant or not. 

Symonds case was simpler and is quite possible he is also the descendant.

[Paxter Redwyne]

There are also willam's stark sisters, berena and alysanne. Unfortunately grrm didn't ppublished whom they had married.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

5 hours ago, James Steller said:

The Karstarks are probably the closest northern house to the Starks

If the family tree at TWOIAF is right the Starks haven't beeen married in the Karstark family for about the last 200 years. However  the Umbers from Arrana and the Cerwyns from Aregelle are more closely related to the currrent generation of the Starks. That said, the closest relatives would had been Jocelyn's descendants.

[John Suburbs]

3 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Going by Catelyn mentioning the possible heirs from the Vale and them being descended straight from Lord Willam Starks line through Jocelyn id say these would come quite high in contention. Who exactly they are is a tricky matter to find out though. 

I done four pieces recently with a lot of discussion on the Waynwood one. It seems the front runners are possibly Roland Waynwood and Symond Templeton. 

In Rolands case the missing links in the family tree are what made it possible and at the same time impossible to say whether he was the Stark descendant or not. 

Symonds case was simpler and is quite possible he is also the descendant.

This seems right. The line of Edwyle Stark, Rickard's Father, ends with Rickon. Unless he comes back to claim the seat and Sansa is no longer in play, then the next viable line would be through Edwyle's sister, Jocelyn, and her marriage to Benedict Royce that produced three daughters who married into houses Waynewood, Corbray and Templeton.

It would be interesting if the Corbrays now have the best claim to Winterfell after Sansa, considering they seem to be very tight with Littlefinger.

[Macgregor of the North]

43 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

This seems right. The line of Edwyle Stark, Rickard's Father, ends with Rickon. Unless he comes back to claim the seat and Sansa is no longer in play, then the next viable line would be through Edwyle's sister, Jocelyn, and her marriage to Benedict Royce that produced three daughters who married into houses Waynewood, Corbray and Templeton.

It would be interesting if the Corbrays now have the best claim to Winterfell after Sansa, considering they seem to be very tight with Littlefinger.

Yeah it would definitely be interesting if it was the Corbrays who had the heirs to WF Cat was talking about. When we looked at the research of the current crop of males we had(I.e Lyn and his brothers) though they seemed the least likely to be the heirs although still possible of course as we wouldn't know until GRRM confirmed or debunked it. 

I look at the Corbrays and Littlefingers relationship as another potential piece of over confidence on LF's part which could go wrong for him. Lyn goes his own way as LF stated himself.

[StarkofWinterfell]

These are all interesting. Would the Tullys have any sort of claim with Catelyn marrying into the Starks? How strong could a claim be if it was based off of marriage?

I like the Royce connection but agree that the Northern houses wouldn't accept a southron as Lord of Winterfell.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

2 minutes ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

Would the Tullys have any sort of claim with Catelyn marrying into the Starks?

I don't think that it works like that. In laws don't have a right of they don't have the blood. So the Tullys would had a claim only if they had Starks' blood.

[aryagonnakill#2]

2 minutes ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

These are all interesting. Would the Tullys have any sort of claim with Catelyn marrying into the Starks? How strong could a claim be if it was based off of marriage?

I like the Royce connection but agree that the Northern houses wouldn't accept a southron as Lord of Winterfell.

No only her children have claim to Winterfell.  Her children also have claim to Riverrun through her, but Edmure has no claim to WF.

[StarkofWinterfell]

12 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I don't think that it works like that. In laws don't have a right of they don't have the blood. So the Tullys would had a claim only if they had Starks' blood.

 

11 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

No only her children have claim to Winterfell.  Her children also have claim to Riverrun through her, but Edmure has no claim to WF.

I am thinking of how Tyrion might have ruled Winterfell through his marriage with Sansa, but with Catelyn dead, I wonder if Edmure could take advantage of her claim and stake a claim that way. It would certainly complicate things.

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

5 minutes ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

am thinking of how Tyrion might have ruled Winterfell through his marriage with Sansa

Because of his child with Sansa.

[StarkofWinterfell]

Just now, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Because of his child with Sansa.

But he did not have a child with Sansa and would have ruled otherwise. If, as Tyrion, you just claim Sansa is barren, then you can rule Winterfell as regent indefinitely or for a good amount of time without an heir.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

20 minutes ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

But he did not have a child with Sansa and would have ruled otherwise. If, as Tyrion, you just claim Sansa is barren, then you can rule Winterfell as regent indefinitely or for a good amount of time without an heir.

You don't know that. Tywin clearly states that they need Sansa's child in order to rule the North. "When you bring Eddard Stark's grandson home to claim his birthright, lords and little folk alike will rise as one to place him on the high seat of his ancestors." Of course someone could had fake a baby for Sansa.

[Lord Lannister]

I always found it rather odd that the Starks ruled for some 8000 or so years and beyond a few distant cadet branches really don't seem to have any extended family, cousins or the such with the name Stark.

[Eden-Mackenzie]

5 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

I always found it rather odd that the Starks ruled for some 8000 or so years and beyond a few distant cadet branches really don't seem to have any extended family, cousins or the such with the name Stark.

Especially considering Ned's mother was a junior Stark - where did they all go? The two offshoots we know of renamed themselves (Greystark and Karstark), and even one of those lines is extinct and the other nearly so. It seems like every generation either had exactly one male heir, or the first heir died without (legitimate) children so the second son succeeded him, and any remaining sons either joined the Night's Watch or also died without children. 

The Starks seem to be the rule rather than the exception though - we have the Tyrell cousins, some extraneous Arryns and Lannisters, and a few "split" families like the Fossoways and Flints, but on the whole everyone's cousins seem to die off or only be girls, so the name dies with their father anyway. Oh, and the Freys, but that is a very recent development and it remains to be seen how many will survive the series. There are no other Tullys, Baratheons, Greyjoys, Martells, etc. other than the main line, and we have several families who have already died out, or are at risk of doing so, especially in the North and Riverlands.

I also find it strange that Ned, who was fostered in the Vale, made no effort to introduce his children to their Vale cousins. However, given the lack of information we have regarding these Vale cousins, it seems like ___ the Heir will be a moot point by series end, one way or another.