Tyrion and women

[Tianzi]

So, Tyrion.

The guy that doesn't have non-consensual sex with a minor during their wedding night. Which in Game of Thrones' world makes him an awesome, stand up dude. [After Screen Junkies]

Whores around immensely, but as far as his relations with Shae, Alayaya and Chataya go, it's made clear that he is one of the few who see prostitutes as people. Goes as far as threatening his own nephew over one and being seriously enraged when his lord father doesn't appreciate this idea.

Been through a lot of crap. Even if he sometimes displays unhealthy behavior towards the ladies, it's easier to sympathize with him than with many others. After all, how many of us are noseless dwarfs with a domineering father, on whose sight the members of our desired sex have a gag reflex that has to be healed by money?

But in my eyes there are some elements that bring his view on women into question:

a. Tysha

b. Essos

c. Penny

a. As for the Tysha's rape itself, I see Tyrion as a fellow victim (though obviously not on her level), he was forced to, he didn't want to, his male parts gave away. Obviously it's mainly on Tywin, though I can't imagine how any woman in Tysha's place would want to see Tyrion ever again after what happened. I have another problem: although we are not given detailed description of what happened, Tyrion witnessed the whole thing, a garrison going through a 14-year old girl, he participated himself. Has he not noticed how horrified she obviously had to be, how she suffered, that it was against her will even if she was a 'whore'? He might not when he was thirteen, but he should have realized it later retroactively with gained experience. And yet he is all like 'She was a whore, she didn't love me, poor me'. It took him Jaime admitting that she was not a whore to finally think: 'OMG, rape! Not ok!'. And she loved him! She was not a whore! Suddenly what happened to HER matters!

b. While there's been already established that Tyrion's concern for whores' consent and feeling is bigger than average (read: lesser chance he's been a rapist with them than, say, Robert), his track record crumbles when he arrives to Essos. The manner how he start dehumanizing sex slaves (and slaves in general) is particularly chilling. He despises being made a slave and being seen as a funny dwarf whose gods-given role is to make taller people laugh, but ever thinking 'hey, maybe shagging female slaves who can't refuse isn't ok?' Nope, doesn't happen.

c. After several books of whining that no woman would want him not because of his money, he gets finally one (well, she might not really desire him, but she reaches to him).

Ugh, a she-dwarf. Do not want. Below his standards.

...That said, he still protected her, shielded her from the worst of the world and generally brought more goodness than badness into her life (when he could control it). But while he isn't obliged to be attracted to Penny or anyone, I feel he really shouldn't have a problem with the ladies valuing mainly his many, if he values mainly their hot bodies.

d. ...Shae.

OK, she was what probably anybody would call a traitorous bitch, but I feel that Tyrion, along with romanticizing their relationship, treated her a lot like he owned her. And while his rage over her betraying him and helping to send him to die was correct, there was also unjustified fury over her being, well, a whore in the end of the day. Also, his murder of her was vicious, way more so than his murder of Tywin, which just took quick shooting; he made her suffer, he kept on going even though he could stop, he, in my opinion murdered her in part in a twisted 'honor killing' manner.

 

---

I know that Tyrion is a fan-favorite and that dozen of far worse examples in the story can be listed in response to all of his sins, but I also feel that he is sometimes painted as a nearly flawless individual with nothing but empathy for 'misfits' and nothing but kindness for women, these shallow creatures who can't appreciate him. I don't agree with those interpretations and I don't agree with a notion that for all of his lack of luck in love he 'deserves' to finally get a pretty, nice, young thing who would act as a balsam on his wounds. As I said in the beginning, he is probably more decent than indecent and he's had a shitty life in many aspects, but I just don't see as the series' under appreciated 'Mr. Right' in a deformed body.

 

[Maxxine]

I completely agree with what you said regarding Tysha almost word for word. He doesn't seem to have a problem with her being raped when he thinks she a prostitute like it really wasn't a rape. In fact  in Dance he says something along the lines of "Tysha I'm sorry I let them rape you but I thought you were a whore." Like her being a whore made it ok, but once she wasn't a whore it was wrong. If he truly loved her he wouldn't have been ok with it regardless of what she was. 

I give him a slight pass for his behavior in Essos. He was at such a low at that point. At rock bottom basically. Not a justification, but I understand it.

I don't really agree with your assessment of him and Penny. I don't think its an "ugh she's a she-dwarf" vibe. It's more of an she's so innocent, I don't want to corrupt her type thing to me. Yeah I'm sure he's not attracted to her, but it doesn't seem as shallow as you're making it.

In regards to killing Shae, i don't think it was an honor killing. More like a crime of passion. He killed her that way because he had no other weapon. I don't think he thought about it the way he thought about killing Tywin. The shock just took over.

[Tianzi]

I think that if Penny had a hot body, nice titties and pretty, non-dwarfish legs, her 'corruption' would matter less. I agree that Tyrion and Penny are mainly incompatible temperamentally and intellectually, but so were Tyrion and Sansa and he was very ready to bang her. Well, the charitable interpretation is that Sansa was his wife and Penny isn't, so sleeping with him could complicate her life. But I refrain from giving him a cookie for that until he rebuffs advances of a hot innocent maiden.

About killing Shae, what I'm saying is that it took time. In Tywin's case, he decided to kill him and he killed him. In Shae's case, he was deciding to kill her second after second, after second, while proceeding. It was truly vicious. And he kills her after she calls him her Lannister giant, so  just take it like it's more for being, well, a whore to him, and to his lord father as well for that matter, than for siding with his attackers at the trial.

[Richard Writhen]

You have to remember that he grew up without a mother. So if his perception is a bit off, it's par for the course.

[Neptunium]

I interpreted the Tysha thing differently. I got the impression that Tyrion genuinely doesn't remember what happened very well and is filling in the blanks with his subconscious.

In the beginning he seems to thing that Tysha went along with the whole thing willingly and happily left with the silver. When he learns that shebwasn't being paid by Jaime, he 'realises' that she was raped and feels really guilty about it. But at no point does he reference how Tysha actually reacted. He mentions her having sex with the guards, then him, and then leaving with the silver; but even when he's reflecting out of guilt, he never reflects on how she actually did i.e. he never thinks anything about the look on or face or anything she said (or lack thereof). Tyrion at one point also thought that he had no idea how many guards were involved, whether it was a few or a lot.

This gave me the impression that he really doesn't remember what happened, as he's mostly suppressed what happened.

If Tysha is still alive, the same thing could have happened to her: she might 'remember' Tyrion enjoying taking her after after the guards, even though it was also traumatising for him.

[Tianzi]

He had a sist... OK, not helping.

I remember that he grew without a mother (one of the lesser problems in his life, I'd say, which says something about the quality of his life), but I don't see how it affects any of the points I raised.
 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1 hour ago, Maxxine said:

I completely agree with what you said regarding Tysha almost word for word. He doesn't seem to have a problem with her being raped when he thinks she a prostitute like it really wasn't a rape. In fact  in Dance he says something along the lines of "Tysha I'm sorry I let them rape you but I thought you were a whore." Like her being a whore made it ok, but once she wasn't a whore it was wrong. If he truly loved her he wouldn't have been ok with it regardless of what she was.

Yup. His whole reason why he wants Jaime dead is because of that lie. If Tyrion was forced to rape her then blaming Jaime makes little sense as he would have had to rape her regardless of her profession.

Westeros is a fucked up society,  men like Tyrion, Robert or Edmure who seem to all regularly frequent brothels seem not to care if the women working in these establishments have a choice in the matter. They seem to take it for granted that a whore is someone to have sex with regardless of the circumstances they are in. We see this with the mother of Robert's last bastard;

The girl had been so young Ned had not dared to ask her age. No doubt she'd been a virgin; the better brothels could always find a virgin, if the purse was fat enough.

There is going to be an awful lot of Jeyne Poole's in these establishments, girls forced into this profession and no real option to get out of it as there is no real law and few people for them to get help from.

What I really don't understand about Tyrion is him finding out that Tysha was not  a 'whore' should be the wake up call. He should want to find out from the whores and sex workers he meets in Essos if they have any choice in what they are doing. But he carries on as if he has learnt nothing from the tragic situation that happened to Tysha. Men like Edmure and Robert would be ignorant to it but you would think that Tyrion would now have more empathy for the women in this situation.

 

[Philokles]

15 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Yup. His whole reason why he wants Jaime dead is because of that lie. If Tyrion was forced to rape her then blaming Jaime makes little sense as he would have had to rape her regardless of her profession.

The reason he resents Jaime is not for having to rape Tysha, but for the lie that she did not actually love him. As ever with Tyrion he is driven by the desire to be loved. Not that it justifies his actions as a whole.

15 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

There is going to be an awful lot of Jeyne Poole's in these establishments, girls forced into this profession and no real option to get out of it as there is no real law and few people for them to get help from.

I expect most of the girls in Westerosi brothels are there for economic reasons rather than having been physically coerced. Given the huge numbers of poor young women and risks if caught possessing slaves it would not be worth if for owners. Jeyne Poole is hardly a standard case given the royal approval for Littlefinger's plan.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

2 minutes ago, Sept Sev said:

 

I expect most of the girls in Westerosi brothels are there for economic reasons rather than having been physically coerced. Given the huge numbers of poor young women and risks if caught possessing slaves it would not be worth if for owners. Jeyne Poole is hardly a standard case given the royal approval for Littlefinger's plan.

What risks? All they have to do is show that she was being paid. That is the kind of society they live in, no one is going to take the word of a young female peasant. That is why Tywin was quite comfortable sending Tysha on her way, even if she had the nerve to speak out no one would take her word over someone who is technically her better.

Jeyne Poole is actually (minor) nobility and Littlfinger was able to treat her like dirt long before there was a plan to marry her off to a Bolton. There is going to be an awful lot of girls in Tysha's situation who are treated exactly the same as Jeyne and are not even going to know what rights they do have.

[Philokles]

3 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

What risks? All they have to do is show that she was being paid. That is the kind of society they live in, no one is going to take the word of a young female peasant. That is why Tywin was quite comfortable sending Tysha on her way, even if she had the nerve to speak out no one would take her word over someone who is technically her better.

Jeyne Poole is actually (minor) nobility and Littlfinger was able to treat her like dirt long before there was a plan to marry her off to a Bolton. There is going to be an awful lot of girls in Tysha's situation who are treated exactly the same as Jeyne and are not even going to know what rights they do have.

Slavery is punishable by death, all you need is someone with honour or is officious or looking for a kickback enforcing the law and it is far more trouble than it is worth. Yes, you could pay them but then you lose the one benefit of using slaves instead of free women.

Cersei gave permission to Littlefinger to take Jeyne to a brothel back in aGoT when Sansa complained.

Of course feudal society is exploitative, but that is certainly not limited to prostitution or even treatment of women and differs from slavery.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I suppose many people in Westerosi society do believe you can't rape a prostitute. The guy who tried to force Pia definitely thought so. Jaime, being a more educated man, thought otherwise.

I'd give Tyrion a pass here. First, he was very young and second, remember that he thought he was being deceived. He really fell in love with Tysha and believed she played him all along. It's similar to the situation in which he killed Shae: it was after he called him "giant" that he lost it. It made him remember she was just pretending. It's kind of obvious that, for him, being played like that it's a big thing.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

39 minutes ago, JonCon's Red Beard said:

I suppose many people in Westerosi society do believe you can't rape a prostitute. The guy who tried to force Pia definitely thought so. Jaime, being a more educated man, thought otherwise.

I'd give Tyrion a pass here. First, he was very young and second, remember that he thought he was being deceived. He really fell in love with Tysha and believed she played him all along. It's similar to the situation in which he killed Shae: it was after he called him "giant" that he lost it. It made him remember she was just pretending. It's kind of obvious that, for him, being played like that it's a big thing.

The problem here is that Tyrion played himself. 

He told her at the beginning that he was paying her to love him and to make him forget that he was paying her 

She succeeded

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Just now, Lord_Ravenstone said:

The problem here is that Tyrion played himself. 

He told her at the beginning that he was paying her to love him and to make him forget that he was paying her 

She succeeded

Agree. But Shae's case is a bit more complicated. Not only Shae wasn't being real (which I guess Tyrion accepts up until certain point), but she later betrayed him according to his own view. She went beyond accusing him: he humiliate him in front of the court, telling everyone about their encounters, and even spilling out their secrets. When she calls him "giant", a loving name, he didn't want to hear any more of that. It kinda triggered him bad memories, specially how she had told everybody she used that name with him in privacy. I don't justify it, but I understand it.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

6 minutes ago, JonCon's Red Beard said:

Agree. But Shae's case is a bit more complicated. Not only Shae wasn't being real (which I guess Tyrion accepts up until certain point), but she later betrayed him according to his own view. She went beyond accusing him: he humiliate him in front of the court, telling everyone about their encounters, and even spilling out their secrets. When she calls him "giant", a loving name, he didn't want to hear any more of that. It kinda triggered him bad memories, specially how she had told everybody she used that name with him in privacy. I don't justify it, but I understand it.

Interestingly enough, Shar acts pretty confused why people are laughing at the "giant of Lannister" thing

[sweetsunray]

The thing is that Tyrion suffers from inability to put things in perspective. He's had a miserable youth with Tywin and Cersei, but in comparison to women and girls who end up needing to survive as a camp follower and loads of other common folk, Tyrion has had a privileged life.

It isn't until he meets Penny (and learns of her brother's fate) and ends up a slave that he truly ends up getting a perspective what other people's life is like when they're not the son of Tywin Lannister, Warden of the West and brother to Queen of Westeros.

Yes, he was abused and had a shitty father and a horrible sister. Yes, that is traumatizing, no matter how priviledged or poor a life you otherwise may have. But it doesn't really excuses him of having to grow up, put things in perspective and realize that some camp follower only has her youth and looks to find some warrior, knight or lord who's willing to be her long-term benefactor. She's what age when she becomes Tyrion's? 17 and a lowborn commoner. Camp followers aren't exactly brothel whores either. Many of them do look for one benefactor, even a common levied soldier, who might even promises to marry them. These are women looking for a man who'll keep them, protect them and benefit them materially. Shae betrays an anxiety and a naivity about what she can expect and not expect.

On the one hand she demands his attention and to visit her often... This is behaviour related to anxiety - her greatest fear would be that he sets her aside for another whore, and that the benefits go to another. This anxiety increases when he's to wed Sansa. She must cater him, so that he still won't put her aside, even although he has a wife.

She shows tremendous naivity regarding what Tyrion can actually do for her: she wishes to see all these wonderful things at the Purple Wedding for example and she tells too much to Simon. None of that is remotely realistic, but clearly Shae does not know that or even understand it. It is very clear that Tyrion is Shae's first big, fat fish, and the first time she is in a more elevated position that is more akin to a courtesan, than a camp follower. And then Tyrion can't protect her anymore, can't take care of her anymore, can't provide for her anymore... he has no position and stands accused for murder. Why wouldn't she tell all at court. And why would she refuse Tywin?

Is it mercenary? Sure it is. But can Tyrion blame her at all? I don't think so. Not if he for once looked at Shae from where she came from, and not just from his own personal needs alone. He does the same thing with Sansa. Just because he doesn't rape her at their wedding night and he's not the worst of the Lannisters, she ought to forget he was in fact the Hand and part of the council and sides with his family who murdered her father, her brother and her mother. But all he can think of is how she did not kneel for him at the forced wedding.

Do I get where Tyrion is coming from? Absolutely. But of all the broken things he's involved with, including himself, he's the one who ought to be able to look past his own needs, wants and projections.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I've discussed Tyrion and his shitty attitude towards women a lot, so I don't really want to get into that now. People who are die hard Tyrion fans often wilfully ignore his flaws and deny he is a rapist because they just don't want to have to see their favourite character that way. 

Don't get me wrong I love Tyrion as a character, he is great fun to read. But he is a rapist, and his attitude towards women sucks. the point i wanted to make, was that for all folks deride Penny as a character and her inclusion in the story, I feel she has a very definite role to play in relation to Tyrion and his atrocious attitude towards women. 

She's teaching him lessons about himself that he was previously ignorant to and unwilling to learn. It is in his interactions with her that he discovers what a dick he can be. In their interactions in TWOW sample chapters this is especially evident.

Penny brings out a nurturing side in Tyrion, because she is so young, and because she too is a dwarf. But she also pisses him off, she reminds him of the fact he only escaped a life of mummery because of the House he was born into; she reminds him that he is small. That once the privilege he grew up with is stripped away his stature makes him vulnerable. 

She also wakes his eyes up to what a hypocrite he is, she expresses a desire for him, and he rejects her. Precisely because she is a dwarf. In that moment he has to face the ugly truth. He carries the same prejudices he despises & resents in others. He doesn't have a bing bong- light bulb moment. But the fact is he is subconsciously awakening to this truth.

Spoiler

 His reactions to her and the things she does and says, sometimes push him back into that room with Shae, and the full horror of what he did to her. He has to stop himself from attacking Penny

and these things all contribute to him slowly awakening from the black hate filled fog he descended into when he found out the truth about Tysha & murdered Shae and his father. 

I think that is her role in the story, Penny shows Tyrion how blind he has always been to his own faults, and whilst he had been wallowing in it all, committing heinous acts whilst telling himself he doesn't give a shit and doesn't care if he lives or dies. She had been silently (and unwittingly) teaching him these home truths. And it seems to me that he is beginning to give a shit again. At last!

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

43 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

 

She also wakes his eyes up to what a hypocrite he is, she expresses a desire for him, and he rejects her. Precisely because she is a dwarf. In that moment he has to face the ugly truth. He carries the same prejudices he despises & resents in others. He doesn't have a bing bong- light bulb moment. But the fact is he is subconsciously awakening to this truth.

This is also true with Lollys*, who Tanda Stokeworth is trying to arrange a wedding with Tyrion. Tyrion thinks he is too good for her yet I am pretty sure that is exactly what the many Houses who rejected him for their daughters thought about him.

Tyrion is a true Lannister in that he thinks he (and his ilk) are superior to everyone. With Cersei it is her beauty, with Jaime his gifts as a warrior and Tyrion it is his intelligence. All think they are better than everyone. I wonder if Tyrion will follow his siblings fates and be stripped of the one thing he thinks makes him better than everyone.

 

*I'm pretty sure there is nothing wrong with her before she was gangraped, just a little dim but afterwards she does seem, reasonably in my opinion, mentally scarred.

 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

It's a tricky one, Lollys, on the one hand I agree, he rejected her because she was a bit tubby, and plain, and dim witted, which I took to mean she's a bit thick. So I can see what you mean, about him doing the same thing, holding women to much higher standards than he holds himself. 

  But when Shae comments that she doesn't understand what is happening to her and freaks out when the baby moves. I have to wonder if she is more mentally disabled than I first imagined. In which case I don't think it would really be morally acceptable for anyone to marry her. As can she truly consent?  (Not that that ever bothered a Westerosi Noble.) In which case, one has to question Bronn, I mean I know his motives, we all do. But it does rather impinge upon the Happy trying his luck Sellsword image we have of him. I do wonder how much Jerome Flynn has done to make us all see Bronn in such a positive light?  If in fact Lollys is severely disabled, it does seem a bit; erm, sick.  But hey this is hardly the books series to shy away from morally questionable acts is it.

But certainly, Tyrion has a massively disproportionate view of himself in relation to women and sex. He despises and resents that he doesn't have women flocking to him, and simultaneously derides them as shallow for not desiring him. Yet his only thoughts regarding them are incredibly shallow. he doesn't tend to think of women as autonomous human beings. He only views them in terms of his own lusts or resentments. 

[sweetsunray]

@The Weirwoods Eyes Two superb posts!

Lollys does seem to have enough mental limitations to consider her as someone who is unable to give consent. Bronn certainly is very mercenary in marrying her. What speaks well of him is that he doesn't shut her up in a tower it seems, but at least acts as a guardian to her. Here, the same reasoning and caution applies though, as with Tyrion and how he behaves to Sansa. Both Lollys and Sansa could have been wedded to the likes of Ramsay and Gregor who would abuse them, and both girls would have been worse off. But sometimes people argue as if the majority of husbands would have been abusive, and Bronn and Tyrion are the rare exception and therefore heroic. But Bronn and Tyrion are actually not being either abusive or heroic. They still married them for their own mercenary, selfsh reasons, and most married men, including in the books, aren't total abusive assholes to their wives. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

18 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

@The Weirwoods Eyes Two superb posts!

 T

Thank you.

 

I never did like the argument that you could have it worse, so just be grateful for that. Kinda like telling someone who has lost an arm to shut up about it because other people have lost both. The depth of another's suffering does not cancel out your own.