Laws of Inheritance?

[Lord Varys]

23 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

To put it mildy this its a matter of debate regarding how the laws of inheritance are. There are laws but most people, in Westeros and outside of it, usually say "I want this guy/girl on the throne" and then invent what they can do justify it. There are a couple of threads devoted, or derailed, to that purpose.

Whatever laws there are are also left deliberately vague to actually concentrate more power in the hands of the kings and the lords. The succession in such society is a pragmatic not a legal matter. On the lower levels the liege lord or king might be able to make his favorite the next lord, but on the royal level swords will have the last word if there is a dispute that cannot be resolved. There is no legal institution who could make a binding ruling on the succession. 

Prior to the Conquest swords may actually have often decided the succession in the various kingdoms as they did in the Reach after the death of Garth Greybeard or (apparently) in the North after the death of Edrick Snowbeard.

During the Targaryen reign it seems to be that only the direct chosen heirs of the kings were clear, and the fact that the king anointed his heir made an important difference. The succession of Aerys I would have been rather unclear if Aerys I hadn't named Prince Rhaegel, Prince Aelor, and finally Prince Maekar Prince of Dragonstone. If Aerys I had never commented on his own succession or sent erratic signals as to who was supposed to succeed him there might have rival faction gathering around Maekar and Rhaegel/Aelor (if we assume the latter two had lived until Aerys died). The usual succession would support Prince Rhaegel but considering that the man was mad (and we have no clue about the mental state of his son, Prince Aelor) there is actually a pretty good chance that a sufficient number of lords would have favored Maekar over Rhaegel/Aelor.

The Lannister succession is another interesting matter. Tyrion is technically Tywin's legal heir but the fact that Tywin never anointed Tyrion as his heir and effectively treats him very badly in public makes the succession of Casterly Rock very unclear. The very strength of Tywin's symbolically ignoring Tyrion could have made the succession very complicated if Tywin had suddenly died before the beginning of AGoT. If there had been a peaceful resolution the decision most likely would have been made by Robert - either resulting in him releasing Jaime from his vows or in Cersei convincing Robert to grant Casterly Rock to her passing over Tyrion in the process. Robert always needed money, after all.

[Tianzi]

Before the Selmy incident it was unthinkable to release A Kingsguard of his duty. I think that Tywin has always hoped to bully/get rid of Tyrion and wait and see, maybe to give Casterly Rock to Tommen.

 

The daughters come before brothers because at the moment one inherits, he is the last member of the 'main line' and his children are continuation of it, while his brothers and their families become lesser branches, but well, of course the brothers are still [enter the House name]s while the daughters' offspring will have a different last name, so it's a pickle.

As for a 'male with a Targ blood', come on, it means a member of a different house. If a female shouldn't inherit, then a distant spawn from another female has even less of a right. Robert was chosen because 'oh well, the most Targaryenly one of what's left at our side, let's keep appearances', not 'hurray, the true heir!'
 

[GallowsKnight]

On 12/04/2016 at 9:57 PM, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

That's not what the people in the Seven Kingdoms thought. Apparently, everybody expected him to take a grab at the crown, Robert's son be damned.

Yet first we must meet. We’ve had word from the south. Renly Baratheon has claimed his brother’s crown.”

“Renly?” she said, shocked. “I had thought, surely it would be Lord Stannis …”

“So did we all, my lady,” Galbart Glover said.

That, mind you, is AGOT, when the twincest is still a very closely guarded secret.

Most people don't truly understand or know Stannis in the Seven Kingdoms. I'd say through Cressen and Davos we have a much better picture than many. Had Stannis wished to claim the throne solely on being Robert's eldest brother and not a Lannister stooge he could have acted much faster rather than attempting to present the incest and allowing time to pass.

[Lord Varys]

48 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Before the Selmy incident it was unthinkable to release A Kingsguard of his duty. I think that Tywin has always hoped to bully/get rid of Tyrion and wait and see, maybe to give Casterly Rock to Tommen.

 

The daughters come before brothers because at the moment one inherits, he is the last member of the 'main line' and his children are continuation of it, while his brothers and their families become lesser branches, but well, of course the brothers are still [enter the House name]s while the daughters' offspring will have a different last name, so it's a pickle.

As for a 'male with a Targ blood', come on, it means a member of a different house. If a female shouldn't inherit, then a distant spawn from another female has even less of a right. Robert was chosen because 'oh well, the most Targaryenly one of what's left at our side, let's keep appearances', not 'hurray, the true heir!'
 

Tywin always considered Jaime to be his heir. This is very obvious throughout the entire series. He wanted Jaime to succeed him, and Jaime's line to rule after him. If Tywin had wanted to hand Casterly Rock to Cersei and her children he could have made Cersei or Tommen his heir long ago. Robert certainly would have liked that and supported this decision.

Daughters usually inherit lordships in most of the kingdoms if there are no sons. Just look at the Stokeworths, the Waynwoods, the Oakhearts, the Whents, the Mormonts, and so on. Women can pass on their name to their children - Arys Oakheart and the sons and grandsons of Anya Waynwood prove as much. We don't know how that works, most likely you need a special permission by the Crown or your liege lord to do it. But then, considering the nature of this society the deciding factor would be that your parents and family refer to you in this fashion.

Female descendants certainly come into play if there are no other heir. Steffon Baratheon was among Aerys' immediate heirs while the king had only one son. Harrold Hardyng is Robert Arryn's immediate heir despite the fact that he only has an Arryn grandmother.

3 minutes ago, GallowsKnight said:

Most people don't truly understand or know Stannis in the Seven Kingdoms. I'd say through Cressen and Davos we have a much better picture than many. Had Stannis wished to claim the throne solely on being Robert's eldest brother and not a Lannister stooge he could have acted much faster rather than attempting to present the incest and allowing time to pass.

Stannis may actually have prepared to take the throne long before Robert died. He fortified Dragonstone after he retreated to the island in AGoT, did he not? It is difficult to determine at which time (and for what purpose) he began to hire sellsails and sent Davos to treat with the Stormlords on his behalf.

Stannis did not act more quickly because he lacked the strength.

[Lion of the West]

On 2016-04-13 at 0:55 PM, Lord Varys said:

Whatever laws there are are also left deliberately vague to actually concentrate more power in the hands of the kings and the lords. The succession in such society is a pragmatic not a legal matter. On the lower levels the liege lord or king might be able to make his favorite the next lord, but on the royal level swords will have the last word if there is a dispute that cannot be resolved. There is no legal institution who could make a binding ruling on the succession. 

Prior to the Conquest swords may actually have often decided the succession in the various kingdoms as they did in the Reach after the death of Garth Greybeard or (apparently) in the North after the death of Edrick Snowbeard.

During the Targaryen reign it seems to be that only the direct chosen heirs of the kings were clear, and the fact that the king anointed his heir made an important difference. The succession of Aerys I would have been rather unclear if Aerys I hadn't named Prince Rhaegel, Prince Aelor, and finally Prince Maekar Prince of Dragonstone. If Aerys I had never commented on his own succession or sent erratic signals as to who was supposed to succeed him there might have rival faction gathering around Maekar and Rhaegel/Aelor (if we assume the latter two had lived until Aerys died). The usual succession would support Prince Rhaegel but considering that the man was mad (and we have no clue about the mental state of his son, Prince Aelor) there is actually a pretty good chance that a sufficient number of lords would have favored Maekar over Rhaegel/Aelor.

The Lannister succession is another interesting matter. Tyrion is technically Tywin's legal heir but the fact that Tywin never anointed Tyrion as his heir and effectively treats him very badly in public makes the succession of Casterly Rock very unclear. The very strength of Tywin's symbolically ignoring Tyrion could have made the succession very complicated if Tywin had suddenly died before the beginning of AGoT. If there had been a peaceful resolution the decision most likely would have been made by Robert - either resulting in him releasing Jaime from his vows or in Cersei convincing Robert to grant Casterly Rock to her passing over Tyrion in the process. Robert always needed money, after all.

However ill-defined these laws may have been its clear as far as I can see that sons inherits after their fathers, and only then can the situation POSSIBLY be complicated. And I agree that there is no legal institution, but a lack of that does not mean there's no legality at all. Just because people break a law don't mean the law isn't there to start with. Its commented time and again in the series that uncles comes after the children, both sons and daughters, of the ruler, with the only exception that if the heirs would be madmen or powerful factions would force the issue, then a different situation could be created.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 12/4/2016 at 7:57 PM, Alexandros_of_Lys said:

Daenerys "I'm going to abolish slavery and fuck yeah dragons" Targaryen?

Yes I mean Daenerys "You want to sell yourself to slavery because I destroyed your life? Sure! Give me your money."

On 12/4/2016 at 7:57 PM, Alexandros_of_Lys said:

No, I highly doubt she'll let her army go crazy on the Westerosi.

And how exactly she will ensure that? Don't forget that she is the one who wants to bring "Fire and Blood" upon Westeros.

On 12/4/2016 at 7:57 PM, Alexandros_of_Lys said:

and if I recall correctly, KL doesn't get particularly cold, even during winter.

You are right. During winter not during LN2.0.

On 12/4/2016 at 7:57 PM, Alexandros_of_Lys said:

Dany really doesn't seem like the type of person to do that on a mass scale

I cannot say if you are kidding or not. You are talking about a woman who destroyed three major cities and killed 163 people without being sure if they are guilty or not.

On 12/4/2016 at 7:57 PM, Alexandros_of_Lys said:

Her sellsword and Dothraki armies will eventually want to return to Essos, so their lodgings need only be temporary

Now I am sure that you are kidding.

On 12/4/2016 at 9:02 PM, Starfell said:

Well, if the disease outbreaks are following Aegon's army and Shireen is up on the Wall hundreds of miles away, with her track record of a decade of not infecting anyone...

And who will know that is JonCon and not a random Stormlander who infected him?

Also I am not convinced that there will be an outbreak.