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Laws of Inheritance?


Alexandros_of_Lys

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I know the Targaryen laws of inheritance stated a female Targ would always come after the male. (So Dany would come after Aegon if he's the real thing). However, when Robert took the throne, were those laws changed so that a king's daughter would come before his brother? I'm pretty sure it wasn't addressed. It just got me wondering IF Cersei gave birth to a black-haired daughter of Robert, would Stannis have supported her claim rather than his own? In the books he's rather determined that Shireen is his heir, but she's also the only legitimate Baratheon left besides him. And again, I know it's an IF question which sucks, but I can't help but wonder. 

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4 hours ago, Alexandros_of_Lys said:

I know the Targaryen laws of inheritance stated a female Targ would always come after the male. (So Dany would come after Aegon if he's the real thing). However, when Robert took the throne, were those laws changed so that a king's daughter would come before his brother? I'm pretty sure it wasn't addressed. It just got me wondering IF Cersei gave birth to a black-haired daughter of Robert, would Stannis have supported her claim rather than his own? In the books he's rather determined that Shireen is his heir, but she's also the only legitimate Baratheon left besides him. And again, I know it's an IF question which sucks, but I can't help but wonder. 

Not that we know of, or have had any indication of.

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Those are not Targaryen laws, they were used by Westerosi as a means of control. It doesn't matter if Stannis thinks Aegon II was in the right, Rhaenyra was her father's heir. It's also funny how the female can't inherit thing was never used with any other family.

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Regarding a hypothetical daughter of Robert and Cersei, and Stannis place in the line of succession, we have these quotes from Dance:

A Dance with Dragons - Jon IV 

"That is his pretext, not his reason," declared Ser Godry. "If the nephew dies in chains, these uncles can claim his lands and lordship for themselves."

"The Greatjon has sons and daughters both. In the north the children of a man's body still come before his uncles, ser."

"Unless they die. Dead children come last everywhere."

 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon IX 

"Your uncle … would that be Lord Arnolf?"

"He is no lord," Alys said scornfully. "My brother Harry is the rightful lord, and by law I am his heir. A daughter comes before an uncle.

 

 

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9 hours ago, Alexandros_of_Lys said:

I know the Targaryen laws of inheritance stated a female Targ would always come after the male. (So Dany would come after Aegon if he's the real thing).

That's actually irrelevant here: even in the Andal/First Men inheritance, it goes Rhaegar - Aegon VI - Rhaenys - Viserys - Daenerys (and under the Dornish law, I think, Rhaegar - Rhaenys - Aegon - Viserys - Daenerys).

9 hours ago, Alexandros_of_Lys said:

However, when Robert took the throne, were those laws changed so that a king's daughter would come before his brother? I'm pretty sure it wasn't addressed. It just got me wondering IF Cersei gave birth to a black-haired daughter of Robert, would Stannis have supported her claim rather than his own? In the books he's rather determined that Shireen is his heir, but she's also the only legitimate Baratheon left besides him. And again, I know it's an IF question which sucks, but I can't help but wonder. 

Yes, I think it wasn't dealt with in-universe, so the law becomes perfectly vague, with legitimate arguments for both interpretations (brother > daughter, daughter > brother). I'm completely sure that at such a situation, Stannis would still claim that the throne is His By Rights, that he's the Only Rightful Heir and anybody who disagrees is a Traitor and an Usurper.

Hell, people had expected Stannis to claim Robert's crown back in AGOT, even before anyone heard of the incest allegations.

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One of the things that we have to contend with is that most "laws" are simply precedents that are regarded as binding by the relevant section of the populace. That's why every time a new permutation on the succession crops up, there's a Great Council to decide the matter. But I suspect that the Great Councils' verdicts are specific, not general ie. "Viserys, not Rhaenys or Laenor, to succeed Jaehaerys" rather than a sweeping "pure spear lines preceed all females or distaff line male claimants"

 

Or, in the case of Aemon, the son of Jaehaerys, monarchial fiat can be used to decide the issue. That requires a strong monarch with a lot of political capital. When Viserys I tried to use his authority to set Rhaenyra up as his heir, he failed to settle the issue.

I suspect that Robert probably just uses the succession laws of the Stormlands which are, from what we can see, fairly similar to the rest of Westeros (Dorne aside) because that's the path of least resistance and he's a least resistance kind of guy and hates everything Targaryen related (I can't think of any Stormlander ruling ladies, but Brienne's role as heir and Argella's brief ascention to Storm Queen implies that a daughters' claims are taken seriously). However, I'd expect a succession crisis next time there's a choice between a daughter and a more distant male relative to take the crown, there will be people who throw up the Targaryen way of doigh things as a reason to exclude the daughter either because they prefer the man out of sheer misogyny, or because they have a personal/dynastic stake in his taking the throne.

 

They could have codified this and avoided any ambiguity, but with Renly as Master of Laws, that seems highly doubtful

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10 hours ago, Alexandros_of_Lys said:

I know the Targaryen laws of inheritance stated a female Targ would always come after the male. (So Dany would come after Aegon if he's the real thing). However, when Robert took the throne, were those laws changed so that a king's daughter would come before his brother? I'm pretty sure it wasn't addressed. It just got me wondering IF Cersei gave birth to a black-haired daughter of Robert, would Stannis have supported her claim rather than his own? In the books he's rather determined that Shireen is his heir, but she's also the only legitimate Baratheon left besides him. And again, I know it's an IF question which sucks, but I can't help but wonder. 

There are actually no 'Targaryen laws' that state this thing. A custom was established on the basis of multiple precedents that women come in general after men, but that's not written in stone (or even on a piece of paper). There are no definite lines of succession in Westeros. For instance, we know that Aerys II followed the legal principle of proximity rather than primogeniture when he chose Prince Viserys as his heir rather than Prince Aegon (after Rhaegar's death at the Trident). Proximity had beaten primogeniture on a number of occasions both when male and female claimants were involved. It won the day when Viserys I was favored by the Great Council over Laenor Velaryon (a king's grandson through the younger male line against a king's great-grandson through the elder female line), it won the day when Viserys II ascended the Iron Throne instead of a daughter of Aegon III (a king's brother against the daughters of a king), and it won the day on the Great Council of 233 AC when Aegon V won the day against Princess Vaella and Prince Maegor (a king's son against the king's granddaughter through the elder male line and a king's grandson through the younger male line).

By Aerys II's anointment Viserys III Targaryen was later crowned on Dragonstone, and he subsequently anointed his only sister Daenerys Stormborn as his heir (Dany is styled Princess of Dragonstone on multiple occasions in AGoT). Daenerys can therefore claim that she is the legitimate and chosen heir of the last crowned Targaryen king, her own brother, Viserys III Targaryen, who was chosen and anointed as heir by their father, Aerys II Targaryen. That gives her a pretty strong claim against Prince Aegon, who was passed over by his royal grandfather and whose identity and ancestry can actually be questioned rather easily. Dany might be female, but she is unquestionably a Targaryen princess, and she happens to be the Mother of Dragons, too.

Myrcella's claim to the Iron Throne isn't as strong as her brothers. Just check how Ned and Littlefinger speak about her when Ned tells him that he found out that they aren't Robert's children. The focus is on Joff and Tommen, not on Myrcella.

Whether Stannis would have supported Myrcella's claim if Robert had only had a black-haired daughter or he had not suspected that she might not be Robert's is completely unclear. Stannis is willing to name Renly his heir in Shireen's stead, after all, making it clear that he might actually think a king's brother should come before a king's daughter.

We also do not know whether Stannis is honest to himself and the reader. Does he actually not want the take the throne or has he secretly coveted the Iron Throne for himself for a long time thinking that he would have made a much better/juster king that Robert could ever hope to be? After all, he failed to inform his royal brother about his suspicions that Cersei's children were not his, that Cersei had Jon Arryn murdered, and might very well also try to remove Robert himself. This lack of action on his part could be a strong sign that Stannis had planned for the day of Robert's death from the very day Jon Arryn died, intending to claim the Iron Throne for himself the very moment Robert died on the grounds that his children weren't his seed - which he then actually did.

If Stannis secretly thinks this way it is very likely he would even have pushed aside Robert's legitimate daughter. Whether such a daughter had any support as Robert's heir/the new Queen Regnant would depend whether Robert had publicly anointed and chosen her as his heir instead of Stannis. The Lannisters would clearly have supported her, and with her most likely would have stood many of the lords who abhorred the very notion of a 'King Stannis'.

And Renly could actually have allied himself with the Lannisters in such a scenario, offering to marry Robert's daughter.

3 minutes ago, Starfell said:

I suspect that Robert probably just uses the succession laws of the Stormlands which are, from what we can see, fairly similar to the rest of Westeros (Dorne aside) because that's the path of least resistance and he's a least resistance kind of guy and hates everything Targaryen related (I can't think of any Stormlander ruling ladies, but Brienne's role as heir and Argella's brief ascention to Storm Queen implies that a daughters' claims are taken seriously). However, I'd expect a succession crisis next time there's a choice between a daughter and a more distant male relative to take the crown, there will be people who throw up the Targaryen way of doigh things as a reason to exclude the daughter either because they prefer the man out of sheer misogyny, or because they have a personal/dynastic stake in his taking the throne.

That is actually very unlikely. The first Great Council discussed the succession of the Iron Throne, not the succession laws of House Targaryen. In fact, one of the main claimants back then was a Velaryon, and if Laenor had continued the dynasty as King Laenor I Velaryon then there wouldn't have suddenly be 'Velaryon succession laws' in effect.

The Baratheons had to stick to the established succession customs for the Iron Throne that had been established in the past.

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1 hour ago, GallowsKnight said:

If Robert's kids were true he would have backed them in any civil war, complaining,  quipping and grinding his teeth the whole time. 

That's not what the people in the Seven Kingdoms thought. Apparently, everybody expected him to take a grab at the crown, Robert's son be damned.

Yet first we must meet. We’ve had word from the south. Renly Baratheon has claimed his brother’s crown.”

“Renly?” she said, shocked. “I had thought, surely it would be Lord Stannis …”

So did we all, my lady,” Galbart Glover said.

That, mind you, is AGOT, when the twincest is still a very closely guarded secret.

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As usual, Lord Varys explanation makes the most sense. In addition, I see nowhere in test that Robert should have changed the rules of succession (He was most likely completely uninterested about it as long as no dragonspawn was on the throne).

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Indeed, if the precedents show us one thing, is that there are not "Targaryen succession laws". Whenever there has been an unclear situation it hasn't been resolved by maesters, but by the lords of the realm. Either peacefully (Great Councils) or violently (wars).

Perhaps the only exception was Viserys II, who perhaps was already too powerful to be challenged by anyone.

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16 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

Indeed, if the precedents show us one thing, is that there are not "Targaryen succession laws". Whenever there has been an unclear situation its hasn't been resolved by maesters, but by the lords of the realm. Either peacefully (Great Councils) or violently (wars).

Perhaps the only exception was Viserys II, who perhaps was already too powerful to be challenged by anyone.

Considering that there was a discussion of some sort one assumes that the Small Council debated the succession like it did back when the Dance broke out. Unlike back then most - or perhaps all - of the lords on the Small Council were in agreement that a woman was not fit to sit the Iron Throne. And this would have settled that because Daena and her sisters didn't have the same power base as Rhaenyra did in 129 AC.

I'm actually not even sure Viserys II actually coveted the throne. That remains to be seen. After all, he must have known that should he ascend the throne his son Aegon would inevitably follow, and a man remembering the Dance wouldn't have keen to seat that guy on the throne. And I'm pretty sure Aegon had his father poisoned because he feared or knew the old man planned to pass him over in favor of his own son, Prince Daeron, who was already a man grown at that time.

Whether Great Councils actually had the authority to choose a king on their own isn't clear, either. We know they have to be convened by the monarch/Iron Throne (Jaehaerys I convened the first Great Council in 101 AC, and Bloodraven the third in 233 acting as Hand in place of the  late King Maekar - the second Great Council in 136 AC had nothing to do with the succession but it seems to have been called in the name of Aegon III by the last remaining regent who also served as Hand, Grand Maester Munkun), and we know that it was Jaehaerys I who named Viserys Prince of Dragonstone. He made that happen, not the Great Council on his own authority.

One assumes that the Great Council had technically more power because the Iron Throne was vacant at this point, but that is dependent on the amount of actual power Bloodraven wielded at that point. Considering that he had served as Hand for over two decades he might have been pretty powerful (the fact that he could execute Aenys Blackfyre with impunity suggests as much).

Basically it seems to me as if Great Councils are gatherings of lords which the king asks for the opinion on this or that matter usually with the intention to follow the opinion of the lords on the matter at hand. But there is no hint that the monarch is legally obliged to do that.

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In theory primogeniture with male preference is practised in all kingdoms except dorne. Sons come before daughters, daughters before uncles etc.

Im practice, succession is always messy. This hypothetical daughter would come before Stannis, but since Stannis is a self entitled hypocrite, whose high standards apply to anyone but himself, he wouldn´t back her claim. He even put aside his own daughter for Renly out of political necessity, why would his brothers daughter recieve more support?

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4 hours ago, Slaver's Dread said:

Those are not Targaryen laws, they were used by Westerosi as a means of control. It doesn't matter if Stannis thinks Aegon II was in the right, Rhaenyra was her father's heir. It's also funny how the female can't inherit thing was never used with any other family.

Only males can inherit in the Iron isles.

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Whether Great Councils actually had the authority to choose a king on their own isn't clear, either. We know they have to be convened by the monarch/Iron Throne (Jaehaerys I convened the first Great Council in 101 AC, and Bloodraven the third in 233 acting as Hand in place of the late King Maekar (...)), and we know that it was Jaehaerys I who named Viserys Prince of Dragonstone. He made that happen, not the Great Council on his own authority.

I believe that the word of the Great Council is supposed to be final. The World Book tells us that in 101 Jaehaerys summoned the Council to settle the situation "once and for all". And as for the results, we are told that "the Great Council had voted twenty to one in favor of Prince Viserys. The king, not present for final deliberations, named Viserys the Prince of Dragonstone." Jaehaerys only named Viserys Prince of Dragonstone after the Great Council took the decision, and precisely the fact that he wasn't present for the final deliberations can be seen as a sign that he didn't want to influence the outcome (although it seems that at this point Viserys election was a sure thing)

And in 233, with Maekar dead, obviously the decision of the Council was the last say on the matter.

23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

One assumes that the Great Council had technically more power because the Iron Throne was vacant at this point, but that is dependent on the amount of actual power Bloodraven wielded at that point. Considering that he had served as Hand for over two decades he might have been pretty powerful (the fact that he could execute Aenys Blackfyre with impunity suggests as much).

Egg had Bloodraven seized and sent to the Wall for Aenys' murder. There wasn't impunity, they just waited that a new king was elected to have him decide the punishment as he saw fit.

 

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1 minute ago, The hairy bear said:

I believe that the word of the Great Council is supposed to be final. The World Book tells us that in 101 Jaehaerys summoned the Council to settle the situation "once and for all". And as for the results, we are told that "the Great Council had voted twenty to one in favor of Prince Viserys. The king, not present for final deliberations, named Viserys the Prince of Dragonstone." Jaehaerys only named Viserys Prince of Dragonstone after the Great Council took the decision, and precisely the fact that he wasn't present for the final deliberations can be seen as a sign that he didn't want to influence the outcome (although it seems that at this point Viserys election was a sure thing)

And in 233, with Maekar dead, obviously the decision of the Council was the last say on the matter.

Egg had Bloodraven seized and sent to the Wall for Aenys' murder. There wasn't impunity, they just waited that a new king was elected to have him decide the punishment as he saw fit.

Well, my take on Jaehaerys I there is that he wanted to secure a peaceful succession. He could have just named Viserys Prince of Dragonstone in Baelon's stead but he deliberately chose not to do that.

His previous decision for Baelon had caused a rift in his family, and while Baelon was apparently established enough to succeed to the throne without any direct challenged the same was not true for Viserys. Rhaenys and Corlys saw Baelon's sudden death as a chance to make Laenor the next king while Baelon's faction (Daemon apparently foremost among them) considered to be Baelon's heir Viserys the next king.

For Jaehaerys I the succession most likely was never in doubt. He had favored Baelon, and was that implicitly also fine with the idea that Baelon's eldest son would rule after him. But Baelon's untimely death opened up the old wound and Jaehaerys and his court may have been very aware of the danger of a succession war after the death of the Old King. The whole point of the Great Council was to avoid that.

In that sense the Great Council was more a show to demonstrate to the Velaryons that their cause was hopeless and that the majority of the Realm wanted Viserys on the Iron Throne. How much Jaehaerys' own preferences explicitly or implicitly influenced the vote is not clear, but I'm pretty sure a good portion of the assembled lords were not so much swayed by arguments or precedents but supported the king's favorite rather than the boy to gain Jaehaerys' and Viserys' favor.

In that sense, the Great Council is a means in the hands of the monarch/Iron Throne to sideline a powerful minority faction and/or to actually destroy such a faction.

We know from Yandel that a Second Dance threatened the Realm when Maekar I suddenly died. This could only have been a real danger if there were powerful players willing to throw their support behind little Prince Maegor or poor Princess Vaella. But on a Great Council those people had apparently no chance to gather any support for their political schemes. Even Egg's many enemies couldn't find a majority of lords to support Maegor of Vaella to prevent the rise of Aegon V.

As to Bloodraven: I imagine him to execute and present Aenys' to the assembled lords when the Great Council was opened, to hammer home the fact that the Blackfyres were (literally) dead and done, and nobody should fancy the idea to suggest to crown a Blackfyre king instead of a Targaryen prince. If that's the case then it is pretty unlikely that Bloodraven had little power. We know he presided over the Great Council until the very end, putting him essentially in the position of the king until such time as a future king was crowned. Whether the Hand in the position of the king - or the king himself - was forced to go along with a decision of the Great Council he didn't like isn't clear.

In that sense we should keep in mind that we know that Gerold Lannister helped to buy the crown for Aegon V. Something similar might also have happened in 101 AC. Jaehaerys I may have missed the final deliberations but I don't think Ser Otto Hightower removed himself, too. In absence of the king he would have presided over the council, and considering that Otto's brother, the Lord of Oldtown, most likely was also present at Harrenhal, there is a pretty good chance that Hightower and Lannister gold stood against Velaryon gold at the first Great Council, and Lannister/Hightower gold won the day.

Considering the prevalent corruption in Westeros I think the majority of the lords on such councils will sell their vote to the highest bidder, and only a minority would vote according to their own beliefs/convictions. The likes of Grover Tully or Boremund Baratheon should be exceptions, not the rule. Even the Starks didn't support Laenor because they were convinced he had the best claims - they (also) had severe issues with some of Jaehaerys I's previous decisions and apparently used that opportunity to get back at him.

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7 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Only males can inherit in the Iron isles.

AFFC suggests to me that women can inherit in the Iron Islands (at least in the Iron Throne-era), but the ironborn have never had a ruling queen.

Quote
"You were on Pyke not long ago, and saw the king," said Goodbrother. "Did Balon say aught to you of the succession?"
 
Aye. They had spoken in the Sea Tower, as the wind howled outside the windows and the waves crashed restlessly below. Balon had shaken his head in despair when he heard what Aeron had to tell him of his last remaining son. "The wolves have made a weakling of him, as I feared," the king had said. "I pray god that they killed him, so he cannot stand in Asha's way." That was Balon's blindness; he saw himself in his wild, headstrong daughter, and believed she could succeed him. He was wrong in that, and Aeron tried to tell him so. "No woman will ever rule the ironborn, not even a woman such as Asha," he insisted, but Balon could be deaf to things he did not wish to hear.
 
Before the priest could answer Gorold Goodbrother, the maester's mouth flapped open once again. "By rights the Seastone Chair belongs to Theon, or Asha if the prince is dead. That is the law."
 
"Green land law," said Aeron with contempt. "What is that to us? We are ironborn, the sons of the sea, chosen of the Drowned God. No woman may rule over us, nor any godless man."
 
...
 
Aeron tugged his beard, and thought. I have seen the storm, and its name is Euron Crow's Eye. "For now, send only silence," he told the lord. "I must pray on this."
 
"Pray all you wish," the maester said. "It does not change the law. Theon is the rightful heir, and Asha next." (AFFC The Prophet)

 

Quote
"That might be worth some thought, once I sit the Seastone Chair," said Asha.
 
Her uncle sighed. "You will not want to hear this, Asha, but you will not be chosen. No woman has ever ruled the ironborn. Gwynesse is seven years my elder, but when our father died the Ten Towers came to me. It will be the same for you. You are Balon's daughter, not his son. And you have three uncles." (AFFC The Kraken's Daughter)

 

Quote

"The Crow's Eye is a kraken. The elder brother comes before the younger." Asha leaned close. "But I am the child of King Balon's body, so I come before you both. Hear me, nuncle . . ." (AFFC The Iron Captain)

 

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14 hours ago, Alexandros_of_Lys said:

a female Targ would always come after the male. (So Dany would come after Aegon if he's the real thing). 

This is a little bit different imnsho, a son comes before a sister. So even without the Targ law but the Westerosi law Dany is the last in the line.

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