[Spoilers] Rant and Rave Without Reprecussions - Season 6, Tally-Ho

[Tijgy]

So if Rickon is the gift to Ramsay, this might actually mean we would only see him as Ramsay's prisoner until his death? Not one scene where he might see one of his siblings again? Sigh. 

 

[OldGimletEye]

17 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

If she doesn't react, I don't think that's definitive, either. They like pulling things out of a hat.

Agree. They place a high premium on "shock", rather than logic or story continuity. 

Shocking moments are fine, even entertaining, but they have to actually make sense within the narrative.

I'd imagine they would want Sandor's return to be a big surprise. I'll even be a bit charitable here, to D & D, and say I can understand that.  But, if the surprise ends up being a complete ass pull, then it's not so understandable.The thing is that they have made the surprise of Sandor's return not logically possible or remotely realistic. This all goes back to their decision to have Brienne fight Sandor in season 4 and then have Brienne connect with Sansa later.

GOT might get praised on for its alleged gritty realism, but lots of times it fails in that department because D & D seemingly place a higher emphasis on shock than on logical story progression.

[Le Cygne]

1 minute ago, Tijgy said:

So if Rickon is the gift to Ramsay, this might actually mean we would only see him as Ramsay's prisoner until his death? Not one scene where he might see one of his siblings again? Sigh. 

Not until he is killed. But he gets to hear about his sister marrying Ramsay and being raped and all. And Osha will probably be with him, and I don't even want to think about what Ramsay will do to her.

[Cas Stark]

4 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

None of this makes a lick of sense. Jaime is rumored to be in RR to enlist the Freys to help Cersei with the Faith. So I guess Brienne could be sent to RR to enlist the Tullys to help in the North. Which makes no sense, since there's like, a seige and all. I have no idea, I just think it's odd that she goes to RR, and now that Boss Ass Bitch's wish is her command, she must have been sent there.

Either way, it will make them both look sort of dumb.  If Sansa sends Bri to find Arya, then how does she get sidetracked to RR?  If Sansa sends her away in anger after finding out about Arya and the Hound, that's Sansa again turning on a dime.  If she sends her to help the BF, other than to talk to Jamie, dumb.  Tullys can't help anyone since everyone died at the RW except the BF, not that that matters either, they might have a huge army inside of Show RR for all we know.

The most likely seems to be she would send her to talk to Jamie, even though that's pretty lame also.  

 

[Cas Stark]

2 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Not until he is killed. But he gets to hear about his sister marrying Ramsay and being raped and all. And Osha will probably be with him, and I don't even want to think about what Ramsay will do to her.

I predict double shock.

We'll see Rickon and Osha safe with the Umbers.  Yeah!  Happy face!

Then Rickon and Osha delivered as the gift to Ramsay, because all the Stark bannermen are fucktards and traitors in the show.  Oh no, sad face!

Then Jon and boss.ass.bitch will siege Winterfell.  Oooh, drama, drama what will happen?  Will they win/lose/reunite.

Then, Rickon will be sent out, everyone says oh, yeah, again, happy face. and BOOM SHOCK.  Dead. OMG Shock, death and more headlines for GOT.

 

[Le Cygne]

8 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Either way, it will make them both look sort of dumb.  If Sansa sends Bri to find Arya, then how does she get sidetracked to RR?  If Sansa sends her away in anger after finding out about Arya and the Hound, that's Sansa again turning on a dime.  If she sends her to help the BF, other than to talk to Jamie, dumb.  Tullys can't help anyone since everyone died at the RW except the BF, not that that matters either, they might have a huge army inside of Show RR for all we know.

The most likely seems to be she would send her to talk to Jamie, even though that's pretty lame also.  

So, go tell Larry to stop being mean to the Tullys. Larry says no way, everything I do, I do it for Carol. Brute storms off. Then what?

I think she runs into Sandor. There was an interview with GC:

Quote

There’s a beautiful arc to it.  The fighting is an immaculate story that goes on and Alex and C.C. Smiff and poor [Paul] Herbert and Dave [Foreman]—all the stuntmen. I didn’t just want it to be a fight, I wanted it to be a physical story that was being told.  I worked with [director] Alex Graves and he made it one of the most wonderful experiences. It just looks beautiful and earthy and surreal and it’s a complex emotional scene – and it’s not over yet.

http://www.ew.com/article/2014/06/15/game-of-thrones-hound-brienne-finale-fight

And supposedly rivals working together is a thing this season, so maybe they work together instead of some stoopid fight this time.

[LadySoftheart]

1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

The actor who plays her sure seems to have forgotten it. Then again, she forgot LF killed Ned, too. He is so awesome.

But the thing is that ALL the characters forget things they should remember (like Cersei forgetting that she had FOUR children, immediately rendering the prophecy something she shouldn't worry about because if that prophet couldn't get single-digit numbers right, how can she be trusted? And now, Larry also apparently knows about the prophecy but doesn't know that Carol had four kids? Like, hey, "fuck the prophecy, that idiot didn't even know how many children you had!" would have been a more convincing argument than "fuck the prophecy, only you and I matter.") Or the show forgetting that Myrcella was onscreen betrothed to Doran Martell's youngest son, not his ONLY CHILD. 

Meanwhile, some characters know things they shouldn't know - like Tyrion being able to find his way around the tunnels under the Red Keep with NO ASSISTANCE because "he grew up there." Um, no! 

The ONLY thing anyone knows or remembers is what is necessary to move the plot forward AT THAT MOMENT. There's no attention to continuity, to looking back at previous seasons and saying "hey, we introduced this idea here in s2, so this doesn't work with what we want to do in season 4, maybe we need to tweak the dialogue a little bit." Because 99% of the time, that's really ALL THEY WOULD HAVE TO DO, if they gave a shit. It's the sheer sloppiness of it that irritates me too, like most of the time, it doesn't seem like they are altering things for any reason BUT to alter them and then they pay no attention to how altering those things changes other aspects of other storylines down the line. 

Continuity is important in serialized storytelling. If you want to contradict yourself, at least pretend to acknowledge the contradictions, or provide a couple of lines of dialogue that don't require fans to come up with elaborate theories justifying them. (Like Mel's necklace.) 

[OldGimletEye]

8 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

 If Sansa sends her away in anger after finding out about Arya and the Hound,

I think I've might have mentioned this on this thread or some other thread, I don't remember, but I wanted to add that, realistically, Fansa ought to get annoyed with Brienne's decision to execute "justice" upon Stannis too. Since, Stannis was in the North, it wasn't for Brienne to decide his fate. That was for the heiress of the North.

But, since Boss Ass Bitch and Bruty are like going to be besties, I doubt that get's addressed.

[protar]

2 hours ago, Tijgy said:

While I love Sandor, I thought the whole Sandor & Arya in season four was rather boring? I don't know why really? 

Because nothing happened in that plot. You can't really call it a plot even, it was literally just D+D relying on the chemistry of Maisie Williams and Rory McCann to carry an entire arc. They did the same thing with Arya in Harrenhal. If they have a dynamic that they like they'll play it up even if there are no actual plot events to facilitate it.

[LadySoftheart]

1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

And Brienne is connected to Jaime, not Sansa. She's finding Sansa for Catelyn and for Jaime. She says so in the show, in Oathkeeper. And she says so in the books:

"I have to find the girl. I have to find his honor."

And all of this, too.

Turner keeps saying she's her BFF forever and will always be true to her no matter what. But that's bullshit.

In the books, when it came to killing Jaime or dying, BRIENNE CHOSE TO DIE.

When it came to protecting Sansa or killing Stannis, BRIENNE CHOSE TO KILL STANNIS.

Now contrast that with Sandor. Show and books, he put Sansa first. Always. He said so.

When it comes to protecting the king or Sansa, I WILL CHOOSE YOU, HE TOLD HER. AND HE DID.

He told her he would commit treason for her. While looking at her like this. This is their story.

Yes, Sansa is the object of Brienne's knightly quest, but the quest is given to her by Catelyn and by Jaime. And Jaime gives her the means of accomplishing that quest which directly lead to Formerly!Catelyn's suspicions that she's gone over to the enemy. Which hinges on JAIME'S character, because Brienne is undoubtedly in love with Jaime at this point, but she is in love with a Jaime who is quite different from whom Stoneheart believes him to be, and is, moreover, quite innocent of any complicity in the Red Wedding (he was imprisoned while Tywin, Roose and Frey planned it, and a maimed captive as it reached fruition - which is precisely why Bolton is so concerned that Jaime sings a sweet song to Tywin in KL - and traveling with Brienne while it was carried out. Contra D&D Jaime is not a cold-blooded murder planner (even though I think they actually think the Red Wedding was justified) but an act-rashly-in-the-heat-of-the-moment kind of guy.) Tl;dr - Brienne's story is heavily linked with Jaime's and Catelyn's as you say. 

I think Brienne and Sandor are connected by both being "not" knights who actually ARE knights in all but name, but Brienne is half the equation in her own Beauty and the Beast story as is Sandor, and their stories begin to collide in A Feast for Crows with the symbolism of the Hound's helm and its fearsome reputation being passed on while he is passed over and reborn at the Quiet Isle, and Brienne's deadly encounter with the guy who played "the Hound" at Saltpans. But they are not the SAME story, and at this point, it looks like they just conflated these two characters because they thought it would be "cool" to have Brienne fight the Hound. I think that was it, there was no other story logic to it, no other reasoning, nothing. Just "it would look cool!"

And that's why I'm sure the Hound will be back to do something "cool" and Brienne will continue on her killing spree I wish they're renamed her, like they did with Talisa, because she about as much resembles Book!Brienne at this point as Talisa did Jayne Westerling.

[TepidHands]

3 hours ago, Tijgy said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVlRkEqI2T0 

 

Hey! A scene filmed in darkness where you could recognize everybody in it! 

[SuperMario]

2 hours ago, apovsic said:

What is this feeling? It's like something old, something forgotten. It's like ... GoT used to make me FEEL something ...

Yep. I went back and watched the first season and forgot how good the show was and could have been. I think the great acting of Sean Bean and Mark Addy was a big reason why, but the writers actually stayed true to the story and most of the things they did add or change were actually decent - like the first scene with the Starks. You actually got to see them interact as a family. The show had a sense of storytelling and characterization and realism then. You actually cared for the characters. Even though I knew Ned was going to get executed, I still felt sadness when it happened on screen especially with Arya being embraced by Yoren while it was going on. These were people you actually cared about.

Fast forward to today. Does anyone have any connection to any of these remaining characters aside from maybe Davos? (Who they're already in the process of destroying) 

And it's not like we didn't have connection with them before. Jon was great in the first couple seasons. You felt for him in his story. Now, I almost want him to stay dead just to end the misery. Arya crying behind Yoren was heartbreaking. And watching her train with Syrio were some amazing scenes. Now, she is getting bitch slapped by The Waif for reasons only God knows, and how are we supposed to feel anything?

You know a show is bad when you don't care if any of the characters died. I think back to my favorite shows, Justified and Breaking Bad. If anyone died in those shows, even villains, I felt something. The writers of GOT have pushed this show into some nebula that is just a shell of its former self, and I am completely apathetic toward any of its characters anymore.

[Prince of the North]

14 minutes ago, LadySoftheart said:

But the thing is that ALL the characters forget things they should remember (like Cersei forgetting that she had FOUR children, immediately rendering the prophecy something she shouldn't worry about because if that prophet couldn't get single-digit numbers right, how can she be trusted? And now, Larry also apparently knows about the prophecy but doesn't know that Carol had four kids? Like, hey, "fuck the prophecy, that idiot didn't even know how many children you had!" would have been a more convincing argument than "fuck the prophecy, only you and I matter.") Or the show forgetting that Myrcella was onscreen betrothed to Doran Martell's youngest son, not his ONLY CHILD. 

Meanwhile, some characters know things they shouldn't know - like Tyrion being able to find his way around the tunnels under the Red Keep with NO ASSISTANCE because "he grew up there." Um, no! 

The ONLY thing anyone knows or remembers is what is necessary to move the plot forward AT THAT MOMENT. There's no attention to continuity, to looking back at previous seasons and saying "hey, we introduced this idea here in s2, so this doesn't work with what we want to do in season 4, maybe we need to tweak the dialogue a little bit." Because 99% of the time, that's really ALL THEY WOULD HAVE TO DO, if they gave a shit. It's the sheer sloppiness of it that irritates me too, like most of the time, it doesn't seem like they are altering things for any reason BUT to alter them and then they pay no attention to how altering those things changes other aspects of other storylines down the line. 

Continuity is important in serialized storytelling. If you want to contradict yourself, at least pretend to acknowledge the contradictions, or provide a couple of lines of dialogue that don't require fans to come up with elaborate theories justifying them. (Like Mel's necklace.) 

Well, it's kinda hard to maintain story continuity when you don't have any of your story planned out in advance! 

7 minutes ago, protar said:

Because nothing happened in that plot. You can't really call it a plot even, it was literally just D+D relying on the chemistry of Maisie Williams and Rory McCann to carry an entire arc. They did the same thing with Arya in Harrenhal. If they have a dynamic that they like they'll play it up even if there are no actual plot events to facilitate it.

Exactly this.  They are not adapting, writing, or even telling a "story".  They just decide they like an actor or whatever so they give them more nonsense to do on screen.  Just imagine what these actors could have done with this source material, budget, locations, network, etc.  

[LadySoftheart]

47 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Oh, and the scene with the Elder Brother, she's going on and on about everything, and every other word is Jaime. She's completely focused on him, the same way Sansa is focused on Sandor. To pretend that Sansa and Brienne are focused on each other is bullshit. What brings their stories together in the books is about their entire stories to date. What brings their stories together in the show is cutting their own stories, and replacing them with rape and revenge.

And that's not a story. This is like Short Attention Span Theater. The only thing that matters just happened and for no reason.

 Also, you are just giving me leave to quote one of my favorite Brienne things EVER.

Quote

All of it came pouring out of Brienne then, like black blood from a wound: the betrayals and betrothals, Red Ronnet and his rose, Lord Renly dancing with her, the wager for her maidenhead, the bitter tears she shed the night her king wed Margaery Tyrell, the melee at Bitterbridge, the rainbow cloak the the had been so proud of, the shadow in the king's pavilion, Renly dying in her arms, Riverrun and Lady Catelyn, the voyage down the Trident, dueling Jaime in the woods, the Bloody Mummers, Jaime crying "Sapphires", Jaime in the tub at Harrenhal with steam rising from his body, the taste of Vargo Hoat's blood when she bit down on his ear, the bear pit, Jaime leaping down onto the sand, the long ride to King's Landing, Sansa Stark, the vow she'd sworn to Jaime, the vow she'd sworn to Lady Catelyn ...

"I have to find her," she finished. "There are others looking, all wanting to capture her, and sell her to the queen. I have to find her first. I promised Jaime. Oathkeeper, he named the sword. I have to try to save her ... or die in the attempt."

As you say, THIS IS ALL ABOUT JAIME - the promise to Jaime comes first in her confession to the Elder Brother, and when she's actually speaking, IT IS ONLY THE PROMISE TO JAIME that she mentions, and that she has to try to save Sansa or die FOR JAIME. (The bold about the tub is my own  because Brienne is so clearly confessing her lustful thoughts to what is essentially a priest. Awww, Brienne, I love her soooooo much!!)

So everyone who tries go with the idea that the connection is to Sansa - no, again, Sansa is the object of Brienne's quest - she's never even met the girl, after all. And the quest is to keep her oaths - to Jaime and to Catelyn. THOSE oaths are the things Brienne sees as so important that she is willing to sacrifice her life to make them happen. 

[OldGimletEye]

7 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

Exactly this.  They are not adapting, writing, or even telling a "story".  They just decide they like an actor or whatever so they give them more nonsense to do on screen.  Just imagine what these actors could have done with this source material, budget, locations, network, etc.  

Definitely. I feel like a lot of D & D's mistakes happen because the story is written around actors they like (many of which are talented), rather actually write a good narrative.

[Prince of the North]

3 minutes ago, LadySoftheart said:

 Also, you are just giving me leave to quote one of my favorite Brienne things EVER.

As you say, THIS IS ALL ABOUT JAIME - the promise to Jaime comes first in her confession to the Elder Brother, and when she's actually speaking, IT IS ONLY THE PROMISE TO JAIME that she mentions, and that she has to try to save Sansa or die FOR JAIME. (The bold about the tub is my own  because Brienne is so clearly confessing her lustful thoughts to what is essentially a priest. Awww, Brienne, I love her soooooo much!!)

So everyone who tries go with the idea that the connection is to Sansa - no, again, Sansa is the object of Brienne's quest - she's never even met the girl, after all. And the quest is to keep her oaths - to Jaime and to Catelyn. THOSE oaths are the things Brienne sees as so important that she is willing to sacrifice her life to make them happen. 

You are so right!  Sansa is the "Holy Grail" in Brienne's quest, not the reason for the quest!  The reason Brienne wants to find her is to do the right and honorable thing for herself and for those she made vows to!  Brienne is steadfastly trying to embody those qualities that make for a good knight, no matter what, and that's what the soiled knight Jaime Lannister admires so much in her (and wants to be himself) that he comes to love her!  

[Cas Stark]

Just now, OldGimletEye said:

Definitely. I feel like a lot of D & D's mistakes happen because the story is written around actors they like (many of which are talented), rather actually write a good narrative.

Yes, it's an absolute worst case scenario, they move the plot based on actors they like, characters they like, and despite what they say, they have not planned out the majority of the story on a multi season basis, and then there are the glaring errors.

Sometimes this works, like giving Charles Dance a lot of screen time.  I loved Arya and the Hound but even I was getting a little bored of the same segment repeated just w/different strangers. But many times it results in repetitive wastes of time and characters stuck in neutral or doing weird things, like throwing away bags of diamonds or marrying your family's destroyers.

[LadySoftheart]

Just now, Cas Stark said:

Yes, it's an absolute worst case scenario, they move the plot based on actors they like, characters they like, and despite what they say, they have not planned out the majority of the story on a multi season basis, and then there are the glaring errors.

Sometimes this works, like giving Charles Dance a lot of screen time.  I loved Arya and the Hound but even I was getting a little bored of the same segment repeated just w/different strangers. But many times it results in repetitive wastes of time and characters stuck in neutral or doing weird things, like throwing away bags of diamonds or marrying your family's destroyers.

Not to mention that apparently the reason they can't do x or y from the books is that they are so pressed for time adapting these massive books. So ... um, don't do the same scene of Arya being sassy and Tywin unbending and twinkling at her and telling her how she reminds him of his daughter and how Jaime had dyslexia (what was that even fore, seriously?) And they love to repeat the Bronn bro!trips too - it's like they see something clicks with the audience, and they just want to keep doing it, regardless of whether it makes sense contextually. So we get a Jaime-Bronn Bro!Trip (which was 100% filler, with NONE of the character development that Jaime's Riverlands sojourn afforded him). And we get a Jorah-Tyrion bro!trip and a Daario-Jorah bro!trip. They love their bro!trips! (I think Sandor/Arya fall into that category too, though perhaps slightly different as much of that was actually in the books, albeit Sandor acted in completely the opposite way with the farmers that he does in the books!)

Apropos another comment about season 1 - another thing I noticed is that they used A LOT of Martin's dialogue in season 1 (I'm currently rereading A Game of Thrones and I can actually hear the actors speaking the exact words because they said them on the show. Whereas after a while, they just got really enamored of pseudo-philosophizing that meant nothing - going back to "power is power" from Cersei. "Noun is Noun" is a particularly beloved sentence structure for D&D it seems.)

[Tijgy]

14 minutes ago, TepidHands said:

Hey! A scene filmed in darkness where you could recognize everybody in it! 

Haha, LOL. 

I must admit I did not mind very much the inclusion of Osha and Rickon in season 3? I do not like like the cattiness between Osha and Meera (why?) but this is another good scene: they are just walking and talking , Bran remembers sadly Maester Luwin , Rickon mentions old Nan, exposition by someone else than Littlefinger and actually someone from which you would suspect that exposition (Bran says some stuff about the Gift), they give a point of view of the wildlings from a Northern standpoint, Natalia Tena's face, an apology of Bran to Osha because he says the wildlings ravage the Gift and Rickon's "Old Nan told me that", Osha being caring!!! towards Rickon and being sarcastic (Natalia!!!) 

Very simple short scene that gives information, some humour, nostalgic (Luwin and Old Nan), friendship, ... 

And by the way I nominate at this moment either Osha or Meera as my favorite living female character in the show: they care about their loved ones, they show loyalty, they are willing to fight for them, they show they care, they are no thugs, they do not threaten to put whole cities on fire, ... what do you want more? 

 

[Sir Loin Steak]

51 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Agree. They place a high premium on "shock", rather than logic or story continuity. 

Shocking moments are fine, even entertaining, but they have to actually make sense within the narrative.

I think even on shock for shock's sake, they're long past the point of diminishing returns. Partially because they've trained the audience to expect it and partially because they've mangled the characters to such an extent that it's difficult to remain at all invested in the show versions at this point. 

40 minutes ago, LadySoftheart said:

The ONLY thing anyone knows or remembers is what is necessary to move the plot forward AT THAT MOMENT. There's no attention to continuity, to looking back at previous seasons and saying "hey, we introduced this idea here in s2, so this doesn't work with what we want to do in season 4, maybe we need to tweak the dialogue a little bit." Because 99% of the time, that's really ALL THEY WOULD HAVE TO DO, if they gave a shit. It's the sheer sloppiness of it that irritates me too, like most of the time, it doesn't seem like they are altering things for any reason BUT to alter them and then they pay no attention to how altering those things changes other aspects of other storylines down the line. 

Continuity is important in serialized storytelling. If you want to contradict yourself, at least pretend to acknowledge the contradictions, or provide a couple of lines of dialogue that don't require fans to come up with elaborate theories justifying them. (Like Mel's necklace.) 

  Well said, couldn't agree more. There are innumerable stories aimed at children that demonstrate better continuity than this show.