[Spoilers] Rant and Rave Without Reprecussions - Season 6, Tally-Ho

[Le Cygne]

Lanna fight:

http://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/487650/slide_487650_6708702_free.jpg

Raven feathers might be nice:

http://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/487650/slide_487650_6708716_free.jpg

[Neds Secret]

7 minutes ago, Edd Tollett's One Vote said:

Actually, my brother's read the books but isn't super into them (so obviously doesn't discuss them online and hypothesise with other people about plot lines... loser, lol, anyway...), and he thinks I'm just being hopeful when I tell him Jon isn't dead. He also doesn't really believe R+L=J, though he admits it's a plausible theory. I suspect that the reason so many book readers know/expect Jon to come back is because we've had so long to think about it, and we care enough to try and hypothesise. 

True, so true, us the readers care enough to hypothesise and then some. I sometimes worry however that we may have talked all of ourselves into it, like lambs following other lambs, and that some of the things us readers have convinced ourselves are "a given" are in fact quite unlikely. Time will tell I guess, oh, and TWoW 

[Wall Flower]

1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

"I always found Jon really boring on the show."

Yeah, I totally got that. I think we might have got our wires crossed. I was just making the point that poor showJon has had pretty much anything interesting or complex in his book character or story arc removed by the writers (or given to Sam). Maybe he'll finally remember he has a family in Season 6.

[Neds Secret]

8 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

57 minutes ago, @Lady Fevre Dream said:

I love how the end of this excerpt basically points out that the tv show has become one long Coliseum spectacle, complete with the immoral Romans as the audience, barely paying attention to the show, much less caring about the participants or the outcome.  

 

 

48 minutes ago, @Tijgy said:

I really love the article because it touches upon what in my eyes is the main problem of the show: the constant glorification of violence, especially if you remember GRRM actually wanted to give a completely other message. 

And this has actually as result that it just exists from one shock moment to another moment, from boobs to boobs, from dragons to dragons, ... with actually no real content. This might be a successful formula for (short-term) popularity and commercial success but it has as result the quality of this show has become completely non-existent. 

 

 

The number of dissenting opinions on the Dornish subplot is indicative of something being 'off' in the writing.  We should ask ourselves why we're spending so much time discussing the writing and the writers instead of the characters.  D&D's increasingly self-conscious style of writing which draws attention to itself and themselves, rather than standing unobtrusively behind the storyline, is somewhat annoying.  Additionally, this recent need of theirs to parody Monty Python, Blackadder and the like is also too cutesy for my taste (nudge, nudge...wink, wink...). 

I don't want to be thinking too much about how they've constructed the scene or about their personal pop culture influences.  D&D have become so self-conscious about their craft, I feel they're deconstructing the product at the same time they're constructing it -- I wish they would just leave the meta-analysis to us!  GRRM has his own sense of humor, but he never descends into farce stylistically (although he does indeed write a lot about the 'mummer's farce'!)  I would prefer to be immersed in a riveting scene with characters I actually care about (because they've written them so well) without thinking about the writers who created/adapted them! 

The writing and subsequent production should be able to stand alone and speak for itself without reference to GRRM's text or a stage prop they've concocted like 'the letter from Jaime that shall explain all,' the contents of which we never get to see unless we do research after the episode has aired. 

The terrible truth is that elements of their story have started to bore me, which is a reflection of how bored or superficially invested they are with certain plotlines.  At first I thought about the 'plot holes,' then I received elaborate explanations from some adoring fans who just don't want to admit that something is 'off' about the Emperors' new clothes... It's fantasy, so of course there's always going to be an explanation for everything, and one can construct multiple rockhard scenarios of events behind the scenes to account for the flimsy outlines of what we were actually given.  So, sure, the 'logic' finally reveals itself, but the storytelling to get us there is still shoddy.

Now, however, I'm less perplexed.  If you realize that the show has become more about the writers' needs not the characters, then you can see clearly what they're doing and it all makes sense. 

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They're planning on getting rid of the Boltons this season, so they need to replace them with some other villains, just of inferior acting caliber, so that they can finally do more of the caricatured Monty Python skits they always dreamed of doing since they were teenagers!

They didn't give much thought to how they achieved this objective, the important thing for them was to move the pieces around on the board from 'A' to 'B,' while they chuckle amongst themselves at their cleverness 'outfoxing' the audience and marvel at their campy turns of phrase, breaking off to say to each other 'nudge, nudge...wink, wink...'

There's that very revealing dialogue at Daznak's pit, in which the importance of violence for entertainment is debated (this dialogue is D&D's own conception, not being part of GRRM's novel).  This passage follows directly on from the spectacle of Shireen being burned to death in the same episode; it also reflects on what they knew they had 'done' to Sansa a few episodes previously.  The way I read this dialogue, therefore, is D&D confessing (in anticipation of our potential reaction) to their brutal indulgences, simultaneously with justifying their artistic choices.  Similarly,

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when Davos arms himself with Longclaw and says 'I apologize in advance for what you're about to see...' (in the trailer for season 6), this can also be read as D&D's meta-comment, in which they characteristically do this kind of tongue-in-cheek apology (actually, a non-apology). 

Likewise, when the audience revolted against the Sandsnakes last season, their non-apology this season was to give us an extra dolloping serving of the Monty-Pythonesque creatures. 

Now, let's look at the passage in question from an unofficial script for 'Dance of the Dragons':  Here, Tyrion disapproves of the gratuitous ('Jared' a prolific contributor on 'watchers on the wall' derides the gratuitous use of the word 'gratuitous' and considers it a symptom of society's general literary and moral bankruptcy and dire need for a thesaurus, but I'm going to use it anyway...) bloodsport, while Hizdahr argues for violence as 'the necessary condition of greatness' (It's a sad day when Tyrion becomes D&D's conscience...!):

 

D&D, like Hizdahr, are confusing the success of 'what is' with 'what ought to be,' because they tell us, almost in meta-confession,  why should one change ones habits 'when what is has worked in ones favor'?  So, follow the ratings and say no more...

Perhaps they should take a hint from the mouth of Littlefinger, 'We both peddle fantasies, brother Lancel.  Mine just happen to be entertaining.'  Indeed, there are more and less entertaining methods of peddling fantasies.

That is an interesting take on it and yeah, I really believe your onto something here. Something has been truly off since about season 4, which I think is about the time GRRM backed the hell away from the show. Oh well!

[SerMixalot]

Warning-Some political discussion follows

 

So yesterday I had lunch with a show only fan and started discussing some of the differences between GoT and ASoIAF and she was fascinated and enthralled by the changes in the story.  She had no clue about R+L=J, could barely remember Jojen and Meera, was flabbergasted by Sansa's change, could finally understand Arya's arc, got new perspective on Carol, gained new respect for Dany, I put Tyrion in his true light, etc. etc. 

She on her own said she really should read the books being hinted at how awesome they are.  Unfortunately she is not a fiction reader.  I am sure a lot of people have had similar experiences.

What made this unique for me was the fact that as I ruminated on it something occurred to me.  She is a very liberal person in a lot of ways and should support someone like Bernie Sanders, she is an environmentalist and feminist and young and progressive.  She is a bright college educated person.  However, she supports Trump, primarily because his is so anti-establishment.  So I compared what she has told me about her support of Trump, my interpretation of Trump and our discussion about GoT and it lead me to some interesting comparisons.

The Trump phenomenon and GoT supporters seem to have a lot in common.  They are there for the spectacle.  They don't bother analyzing what is being told to them.  They don't  look in depth at presented.  They don't see the offensiveness of what they are seeing.  The make excuses for the childishness of the form of expression.  They often get obnoxious in their defense of their position, often without a logical basis for it.  They have no respect for the base material (GRRM's work or politics itself).  They actually defend the inherently offensive.  They support inherently contradictory, surficial and illogical presentation. 

I could go on and on along this line, but it just seemed strange and sad.  She at least with regards to ASoIAF seemed to open her eyes to the differences and quality of the original work.

 

 

[Lautrec]

18 minutes ago, SerMixalot said:

Warning-Some political discussion follows

 

So yesterday I had lunch with a show only fan and started discussing some of the differences between GoT and ASoIAF and she was fascinated and enthralled by the changes in the story.  She had no clue about R+L=J, could barely remember Jojen and Meera, was flabbergasted by Sansa's change, could finally understand Arya's arc, got new perspective on Carol, gained new respect for Dany, I put Tyrion in his true light, etc. etc. 

She on her own said she really should read the books being hinted at how awesome they are.  Unfortunately she is not a fiction reader.  I am sure a lot of people have had similar experiences.

What made this unique for me was the fact that as I ruminated on it something occurred to me.  She is a very liberal person in a lot of ways and should support someone like Bernie Sanders, she is an environmentalist and feminist and young and progressive.  She is a bright college educated person.  However, she supports Trump, primarily because his is so anti-establishment.  So I compared what she has told me about her support of Trump, my interpretation of Trump and our discussion about GoT and it lead me to some interesting comparisons.

The Trump phenomenon and GoT supporters seem to have a lot in common.  They are there for the spectacle.  They don't bother analyzing what is being told to them.  They don't  look in depth at presented.  They don't see the offensiveness of what they are seeing.  The make excuses for the childishness of the form of expression.  They often get obnoxious in their defense of their position, often without a logical basis for it.  They have no respect for the base material (GRRM's work or politics itself).  They actually defend the inherently offensive.  They support inherently contradictory, surficial and illogical presentation. 

I could go on and on along this line, but it just seemed strange and sad.  She at least with regards to ASoIAF seemed to open her eyes to the differences and quality of the original work.

 

 

I know I shouldn't post here, because this thread really isn't for me, but I still read it because the opinions range from insightful to at the very least entertaining for all the wrong reasons, but this comparison here is just so dumb that I am speechless.

Also, http://8840-presscdn-0-18.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/image03-630x425.jpg

Anyways, I'm out.

[Liver and Onions]

Okay. False alarm on my part. They aren't changing Targaryen to Targary (which sounds like a lovely province in England). At least I hope they aren't. They'd better not do something that nonsensical just because I said it.

On a side note, I feel particularly irked by what the Sandsakes did do Trystane in the show. They straight up murder him, while in the books they are shocked and angered at the idea that Cersei would have him secretly murdered. Book Sandsnakes would hate the show Sandsnakes.

Also, it perhaps is clearer now why they made Doran's father to be his predecessor as Dorne's prince and not his mother. (Although it's less likely that they planned it and more likely a happy coincidence for them). Now women have taken over Dorne by force, with murder and kinslaying! Dorne, that in the books has held to relative sexual equality since the coming of the Rhoynar. But here come Faullaria and the SandFakes! They don't need no man! (I like proactive warrior women characters, but murdering one's disabled uncle and young cousin are quick way to make me HATE someone, male or female, warrior or not.) 

 

[sweetsunray]

2 minutes ago, Liver and Onions said:

Okay. False alarm on my part. They aren't changing Targaryen to Targary (which sounds like a lovely province in England). At least I hope they aren't. They'd better not do something that nonsensical just because I said it.

On a side note, I feel particularly irked by what the Sandsakes did do Trystane in the show. They straight up murder him, while in the books they are shocked and angered at the idea that Cersei would have him secretly murdered. Book Sandsnakes would hate the show Sandsnakes.

Also, it perhaps is clearer now why they made Doran's father to be his predecessor as Dorne's prince and not his mother. (Although it's less likely that they planned it and more likely a happy coincidence for them). Now women have taken over Dorne by force, with murder and kinslaying! Dorne, that in the books has held to relative sexual equality since the coming of the Rhoynar. But here come Faullaria and the SandFakes! They don't need no man! (I like proactive warrior women characters, but murdering one's disabled uncle and young cousin are quick way to make me HATE someone, male or female, warrior or not.) 

 

And yet Arya called her wolf Nymeria, the historical Queen Regnant of Dorne, even in the show.

 

[Tijgy]

5 minutes ago, Liver and Onions said:

Okay. False alarm on my part. They aren't changing Targaryen to Targary (which sounds like a lovely province in England). At least I hope they aren't. They'd better not do something that nonsensical just because I said it.

 

On the other page of the book they wrote Targaryen. Barry probably made a mistake . 

[HowlandReed'sWorth]

hey guys! don't know if anyone said this yet, but it was really funny when Ser Friendzone touched his super contagious greyscale then handed his horses reigns to Daario so he could go find the leaf of...I mean ring. 

[HairGrowsBack]

2 minutes ago, HowlandReed'sWorth said:

hey guys! don't know if anyone said this yet, but it was really funny when Ser Friendzone touched his super contagious greyscale then handed his horses reigns to Daario so he could go find the leaf of...I mean ring. 

The guy should be locked up. He is touching everyone !! He's the annoying guy who gets bitten by zombies but doesn't tell anyone.

[Liver and Onions]

13 minutes ago, HowlandReed'sWorth said:

hey guys! don't know if anyone said this yet, but it was really funny when Ser Friendzone touched his super contagious greyscale then handed his horses reigns to Daario so he could go find the leaf of...I mean ring. 

They can't find the man a pair a gloves? Maybe we should take up a collection...

[Liver and Onions]

23 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

And yet Arya called her wolf Nymeria, the historical Queen Regnant of Dorne, even in the show.

 

I wonder if they forgot about Nymeria, both wolf and sea-faring princess-ruler. 

[The Knight in Motley]

Something I find interesting, and I'll chalk it up to the writing and the acting, but using Dorne as some kind of empowerment story fails even more because of how well portrayed Doran and Hotah are, that with so few lines and such short screentime, those characters were instantly interesting.  However since Dorne was of course supposed to be their story of BadPussy Empowerment, they get marked for death.

I have to wonder two things, are D&D trying to take a story in the books where a man denies power to women and reverse it to one of women taking power and just utterly failing at it while ruining the few good parts of the Dorne plot?

Or worse, is Dorne a backlash, unconscious or otherwise, to the criticisms of how women are empowered in the show.  Are they sabotaging the SandSnakes and making them so cartoonish to deliberately piss off parts of the viewership they disagree with?

[sweetsunray]

20 minutes ago, HowlandReed'sWorth said:

hey guys! don't know if anyone said this yet, but it was really funny when Ser Friendzone touched his super contagious greyscale then handed his horses reigns to Daario so he could go find the leaf of...I mean ring. 

And the silly thing is that it makes many viewers hypothesize whether Dany or anybody else he touches is being Ollied (their type of foreshadowing) to get it, or whether it's just very sloppy writing+directing.

[Ser Quork]

5 minutes ago, Liver and Onions said:

I wonder if they forgot about Nymeria, both wolf and sea-faring princess-ruler. 

I keep hearing rumours that Nymeria is in this season, but then why haven't they mentioned her at all since season 1?

[SuperMario]

21 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

The guy should be locked up. He is touching everyone !! He's the annoying guy who gets bitten by zombies but doesn't tell anyone.

HAHA. Perfect.

[sweetsunray]

 

5 minutes ago, Ser Quork said:

I keep hearing rumours that Nymeria is in this season, but then why haven't they mentioned her at all since season 1?

GRRM probably informed them on Nym's group of wolves attacking a large group of people, with important military characters in it, in tWoW in their last conversation with them. Same convo where he told them that Mel is actually very old, would be my guess. In books I suspect Adam Marbrand is going to end up dead - he left RR to find Blackfish, south of the Red Fork. So, Adam's heading into old BwB territory as well as gets near wolf Gods Eye territory. I suspect to read about his death in Arya's wolf dreams, since she met him at HH (well saw him there)

[SuperMario]

5 minutes ago, Ser Quork said:

I keep hearing rumours that Nymeria is in this season, but then why haven't they mentioned her at all since season 1?

If she doesn't show up again, I'm sure they'll just alter history and say something like Arya never had a Direwolf. Much like Trystane went from being the youngest to the only Martell child. Cersei went from 4 kids to 3 kids.

[sweetsunray]

2 minutes ago, SuperMario said:

If she doesn't show up again, I'm sure they'll just alter history and say something like Arya never had a Direwolf. Much like Trystane went from being the youngest to the only Martell child. Cersei went from 4 kids to 3 kids.

I think they're gonna warg-empower her by being absued and beaten up by the waif, and then she'll be a Boss.Ass.Wolf.Bitch.