[Spoilers] Rant and Rave Without Reprecussions - Season 6, Tally-Ho

[thehandwipes]

34 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Well, even me, watching while playing Frotz could never forget the Braavos Shiv Massacre! Sadly, as I would like very much to unsee that. 

I've seen a good many violent movies but that seen really bothered me mostly because of the way they super vilified Trant so that we, the audience, could revel in his highly sadistic death.  Gave me the same feeling I got from Ramsay wiggling that sausage, the writers aren't taking this seriously and expect me to enjoy sadism for its own sake.

Edit: What do I win for mentioning sadism in my 666th post?

[SerMixalot]

wouldn't it be funny if the north only rose to revenge Stannis!

[SerMixalot]

14 minutes ago, thehandwipes said:

I've seen a good many violent movies but that seen really bothered me mostly because of the way they super vilified Trant so that we, the audience, could revel in his highly sadistic death.  Gave me the same feeling I got from Ramsay wiggling that sausage, the writers aren't taking this seriously and expect me to enjoy sadism for its own sake.

Edit: What do I win for mentioning sadism in my 666th post?

Which just goes to show you that the Showrunners simply don't understand ASoIAF cause GRRM definitely doesn't let the reader revel in sadistic death scenes.

With the possible exception of Joffrey

 

[LadySoftheart]

26 minutes ago, SerMixalot said:

what is a huge shame is that HBO has a relationship with Ian McNiece (he was in Conspiracy and he was the newsreader in Rome).  He would be a perfect Manderly

Oh, yes - I adored the newsreader and his facial/hand expressions!! And I have mentally cast Lucius Vorenus as Jon Connington, James Purefoy as Euron and Ray Stevenson as Victarion (at least I sort of got my wish with the last, as he played "Blackbeard" on "Black Sails" this season!) Alas, poor Indira Varma who was lovely in "Rome" got shunted into that thankless Season 5 stint as Ellaria (she was still lovely in Season 4 but ... whoa, Season 5).

And speaking of Ellaria: I think one of Martin's huge themes is that revenge (however righteous and satisfying it may seem at first) does a number on you eventually. That's why both Catelyn and Ellaria point out the futility of vengeance. That's why Lady Stoneheart is a figure of terror, not justice; why Manderly - who is a great character - is also repeating the story of the Rat Cook; honestly it's why Oberyn ends up with his skull caved in, and it's also why Arya doesn't kill Meryn Trant to avenge Syrio/save little girls )(after thinking about Needle representing vengeance rather than Jon Snow's smile) but kills Daeron whom she's never met before, because he's a NW deserter and she considers her duty as a Stark to execute him for that (even though I'm not 100% sure I concur.) The point is: vengeance comes back on the avenger. But ... the show doesn't really seem to see things the same way, to put it mildly. In fact, it valorizes revenge to a degree (and that's why it's surprising that they never cast the Public Faces of Revenge from the books: Manderly and Lady Stoneheart, though perhaps it was clear even to people who'd skimmed the Cliff Notes version of the books that those two took vengeance a step too far? Or else there was no way to make a fat cannibal and a revivified corpse look sexy :P)

[LadySoftheart]

10 minutes ago, SerMixalot said:

With the possible exception of Joffrey

Oh, I don't think he lets us enjoy Joffrey's death either really - despite Joffrey's undoubted awfulness as a person, Martin makes it uncomfortable to watch a young kid slowly choke to death, just as he makes Cersei's and Theon's "punishments" so drastically unjust, and not really related to the very real crimes they've committed.

[SerMixalot]

True that and GRRM does make a point of showing how perpetrating violence takes a big toll on the purveyor

[Metopheles]

9 minutes ago, LadySoftheart said:

Oh, yes - I adored the newsreader and his facial/hand expressions!! And I have mentally cast Lucius Vorenus as Jon Connington, James Purefoy as Euron and Ray Stevenson as Victarion (at least I sort of got my wish with the last, as he played "Blackbeard" on "Black Sails" this season!) Alas, poor Indira Varma who was lovely in "Rome" got shunted into that thankless Season 5 stint as Ellaria (she was still lovely in Season 4 but ... whoa, Season 5).

And speaking of Ellaria: I think one of Martin's huge themes is that revenge (however righteous and satisfying it may seem at first) does a number on you eventually. That's why both Catelyn and Ellaria point out the futility of vengeance. That's why Lady Stoneheart is a figure of terror, not justice; why Manderly - who is a great character - is also repeating the story of the Rat Cook; honestly it's why Oberyn ends up with his skull caved in, and it's also why Arya doesn't kill Meryn Trant to avenge Syrio/save little girls )(after thinking about Needle representing vengeance rather than Jon Snow's smile) but kills Daeron whom she's never met before, because he's a NW deserter and she considers her duty as a Stark to execute him for that (even though I'm not 100% sure I concur.) The point is: vengeance comes back on the avenger. But ... the show doesn't really seem to see things the same way, to put it mildly. In fact, it valorizes revenge to a degree (and that's why it's surprising that they never cast the Public Faces of Revenge from the books: Manderly and Lady Stoneheart, though perhaps it was clear even to people who'd skimmed the Cliff Notes version of the books that those two took vengeance a step too far? Or else there was no way to make a fat cannibal and a revivified corpse look sexy :P)

wonderfully put. 

But I think you meant Arianne instead of Ellaria.

 

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Arianne, wherever she is, is thanking the gods for not being cast on the show.

Just watched the Ramsay-Roose interview. So, Roose's not pleased with the way Ramsay treated Sansa. It's not like he was there the whole time, obviously.

[A Ghost of Someone]

27 minutes ago, Alayne's Shadow. said:

Arianne, wherever she is, is thanking the gods for not being cast on the show.

Just watched the Ramsay-Roose interview. So, Roose's not pleased with the way Ramsay treated Sansa. It's not like he was there the whole time, obviously.

You would think that since she is a "VIP" that Roose would be paying close attention to her "happiness" but then again, his words to littlefinger were basically we need her name not her virtue so she was there to breed and that is what Ramsay was attempting to do. Whether or not he was successful remains to be seen but if she is pregnant or not, she and the potential baby are not in their possession. Also and more importantly and this is flying under the radar, Roose and Ramsay know Bran and Rickon are alive as it was Theon/Reek that told them, prompting them to send Locke (he took Ser Jaime's hand off) to the Night's Watch to seek them out. So, with Theon gone and him potentially telling Sansa about her brothers (which he did) then the news will spread like Wildfire, that Bran and Rickon Stark are alive and they are the biggest threat to the Boltons, not Sansa.

[Ser Quork]

3 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

You would think that since she is a "VIP" that Roose would be paying close attention to her "happiness" but then again, his words to littlefinger were basically we need her name not her virtue so she was there to breed and that is what Ramsay was attempting to do. Whether or not he was successful remains to be seen but if she is pregnant or not, she and the potential baby are not in their possession. Also and more importantly and this is flying under the radar, Roose and Ramsay know Bran and Rickon are alive as it was Theon/Reek that told them, prompting them to send Locke (he took Ser Jaime's hand off) to the Night's Watch to seek them out. So, with Theon gone and him potentially telling Sansa about her brothers (which he did) then the news will spread like Wildfire, that Bran and Rickon Stark are alive and they are the biggest threat to the Boltons, not Sansa.

Exactly!  I wonder if that detail will also be forgotten.  We shall see.

[ambi76]

Reading Finn's latest EW interview (I love you babe, but shut up about show!Loras plz) I also remembered some stuff he said at conventions in his 180° defense of D&D. So I guess at one point Finn dared to ask D&D: "Um, whatever happened to warrior/soldier Loras?" and they said they couldn't do that anymore because he is the heir of House Tyrell on the show and fighting in war would be too dangerous (paraphrasing).

WUT? Heirs of houses can't be soilders anymore? Tortured (and raped?) in prison is totally fine though, because dramatically satisfiying or some such? I give up.

Book!Loras: Renowen young knight struggles with his ego and protecting his sister/family and goes on a military suicide mission to do so.

Show!Loras: Gay posh dandy knight falls on hard times in prison and can't deal.

Okay.

[bemused]

9 hours ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

Now Brian I can see as Mors Umber or Big Bucket

Thank you.. it's late here now and I'll be off to dreamland, where Brian Blessed will deliver the Big Bucket speech. Guaranteed to lift my spirits..

[Tijgy]

8 hours ago, Metopheles said:

I like to imagine the great actor of Barristan, who actually read all the books and knows them well, wanted out of the show and that was a done deal then for them. They need an important death each episode and so they had one.

Ian McElhinney did actually the opposite. He found out they were killing him off when he saw in his schedule he had not a lot of weeks to shoot (yeah, let not warn the actors they are losing their job. It is so more fun they found it out when they are getting the scripts). So he wrote a letter to D&D to explain why he thought this was a bad decision and why Barry would be important to the story line (because what was actually the point of Barry with Dany in the show. He told Dany some things but those things had actually completely no effect? Daddy was mad => Okay, Some stories about Rhaegar; Due process is cool => Let just Burn them). Later in an interview D&D told a story about a certain actor who wrote a letter why it would a bad reason to kill him off and this letter of course made them want to kill this character even more.  

6 hours ago, thehandwipes said:

I've seen a good many violent movies but that seen really bothered me mostly because of the way they super vilified Trant so that we, the audience, could revel in his highly sadistic death.  Gave me the same feeling I got from Ramsay wiggling that sausage, the writers aren't taking this seriously and expect me to enjoy sadism for its own sake.

Edit: What do I win for mentioning sadism in my 666th post?

O no, the devil is amongst us! LOL

6 hours ago, LadySoftheart said:

In fact, it valorizes revenge to a degree (and that's why it's surprising that they never cast the Public Faces of Revenge from the books: Manderly and Lady Stoneheart, though perhaps it was clear even to people who'd skimmed the Cliff Notes version of the books that those two took vengeance a step too far? Or else there was no way to make a fat cannibal and a revivified corpse look sexy :P)

The problem with D&D is they are valorizing certain values or morals that GRRM does not really valorize in the books. Revenge is certain one of them.

I think is just so sad. Manderley and Cat are (or were) actually not bad people. They were probably flawed but not dark as they are now. And the reason lies in the fact their loved ones were taken away. And that while their lord said once:  "Vengeance?" Ned said. "I thought we were speaking of justice. Burning Clegane's fields and slaughtering his people will not restore the king's peace, only your injured pride." He glanced away before the young knight could voice his outraged protest, and addressed the villagers. "People of Sherrer, I cannot give you back your homes or your crops, nor can I restore your dead to life. But perhaps I can give you some small measure of justice, in the name of our king, Robert." 

Just so sad. 

Don't forget this my dear Northerners and Riverlords! (Personally I do think those Freys and Boltons should be punished. My favorite revenge against Walder is now at this moment that the next heir (who ever might be - I vote for Perwyn, brother of Roslin) would just take his mother's name and the name of Frey would banish out of existence. Say bye bye to your legacy, Walder Frey!)

[kissdbyfire]

7 hours ago, thehandwipes said:

I've seen a good many violent movies but that seen really bothered me mostly because of the way they super vilified Trant so that we, the audience, could revel in his highly sadistic death.  Gave me the same feeling I got from Ramsay wiggling that sausage, the writers aren't taking this seriously and expect me to enjoy sadism for its own sake.

Edit: What do I win for mentioning sadism in my 666th post?

Well, I don't have a problem with dark, violent content. I do enjoy my horror flicks and even slasher films. But when I decide to watch Friday the 13th XVII or Dead Alive, I know what I'm going to watch. To me, Arya killing Trant like that was very deliberately done to achieve two things. They manage to do it in a way that would still allow for SHOCK/OMG YouTube moments. But at the same time it also allowed Arya to be shown in a favourable light. GoT is indeed the opposite of ASoIaF, and Arya, despite the unnecessary viciousness and goriness of the scene, clearly remains firmly on the "good guys" camp since Trant was vilified to such a degree. Yes, after all, she saved not only the other little girls in the scene, but all of Trant's future victims. 

A Ramsay fan club membership and a t-shirt saying "I  Ramsay".

[Woman of War]

8 hours ago, LadySoftheart said:

Oh, yes - I adored the newsreader and his facial/hand expressions!! And I have mentally cast Lucius Vorenus as Jon Connington, James Purefoy as Euron and Ray Stevenson as Victarion (at least I sort of got my wish with the last, as he played "Blackbeard" on "Black Sails" this season!) Alas, poor Indira Varma who was lovely in "Rome" got shunted into that thankless Season 5 stint as Ellaria (she was still lovely in Season 4 but ... whoa, Season 5

And speaking of Ellaria: I think one of Martin's huge themes is that revenge (however righteous and satisfying it may seem at first) does a number on you eventually. That's why both Catelyn and Ellaria point out the futility of vengeance. That's why Lady Stoneheart is a figure of terror, not justice; why Manderly - who is a great character - is also repeating the story of the Rat Cook; honestly it's why Oberyn ends up with his skull caved in, and it's also why Arya doesn't kill Meryn Trant to avenge Syrio/save little girls )(after thinking about Needle representing vengeance rather than Jon Snow's smile) but kills Daeron whom she's never met before, because he's a NW deserter and she considers her duty as a Stark to execute him for that (even though I'm not 100% sure I concur.) The point is: vengeance comes back on the avenger. But ... the show doesn't really seem to see things the same way, to put it mildly. In fact, it valorizes revenge to a degree (and that's why it's surprising that they never cast the Public Faces of Revenge from the books: Manderly and Lady Stoneheart, though perhaps it was clear even to people who'd skimmed the Cliff Notes version of the books that those two took vengeance a step too far? Or else there was no way to make a fat cannibal and a revivified corpse look sexy :P)

Finally, who would have thought, a post in this thread I can fully agree with.

The show has not quite got so far one of the most important messages of ASOIAF, one that makes me love the books so much: Craving for revenge destroys yourself first of all.

Characters who continue their path towards revenge will end badly, be it Dany or Tyrion. There also lies a problem with taking away some complexity from Tyrion, leaving out his darkest moments, his ugliest thoughts: how can he give up what he never had in order to find his own redemptive way? Dany giving up the most lunatic aspects of her ambitions or losing all importance will be an event in the books - in the show she has to have those over the top ambitions first before she can overcome them.

Characters who live for revenge are doomed, the one or other way, in the books.

And Ellaria, just like Septon Meribald, was Martin's direct voice in the books, it's a shame they silenced it.

I love the show but I can't get over the revenge topic so far gone wrong.

P.S. , I have no issues with Ary killing Trant instead of Daemon because playing God and passing some random sentence after hearsay to some random guy who could not defend himself is in no way more "moral" than that bloody killing of Trant. This slaughter was less justified in the books than in the show.

 

[Neds Secret]

11 hours ago, Karmarni said:

You know who would've made a good Manderly? GRRM, that's who - in his cameo appearance.

 

That's awesome!!

[Neds Secret]

11 hours ago, Metopheles said:

The world is like a Tardis. When they talk about it it is vast and incomprehensibly large, when travelling the world, Meereen is two streets down and a left, you really can't miss it.

Roose told Rammers how extremely large the North is, but apparently when you travel in it, it gets really really small. So it truly is a reverse Tardis.

 

And I was joking about the actors hah. So much budget wasted on stupid foam roots and skeletons, an eyepatch from the first aid kit in the car of one of the actors could have been used . God I hate those "creators". They made such a good job in the first seasons and now this shit. Made you love a series and actors and now make you abhor each and everyone connected to the franchise.

You just spoke my mind, honestly I feel like I could have just typed that paragraph exactly, it's exactly how I feel, and sadly I am still invested, I will still be watching every episode ASAP. I feel like a I have been a victim of a bait and switch!

[SeanF]

7 hours ago, LadySoftheart said:

Oh, I don't think he lets us enjoy Joffrey's death either really - despite Joffrey's undoubted awfulness as a person, Martin makes it uncomfortable to watch a young kid slowly choke to death, just as he makes Cersei's and Theon's "punishments" so drastically unjust, and not really related to the very real crimes they've committed.

I have to admit that I felt no sympathy at all for Joffrey, when I read his death scene, although Martin has said he intended readers to feel some sympathy for him.

Theon - yes, what happened to him was horrendous.

Cersei - I felt uncomfortable reading her walk of shame, it was so creepy and so obviously pandered to the worst instincts of the mob.  But, I've met plenty of book readers who just felt she was getting a bit of what she deserved, for her crimes.

[SeanF]

8 hours ago, LadySoftheart said:

Oh, yes - I adored the newsreader and his facial/hand expressions!! And I have mentally cast Lucius Vorenus as Jon Connington, James Purefoy as Euron and Ray Stevenson as Victarion (at least I sort of got my wish with the last, as he played "Blackbeard" on "Black Sails" this season!) Alas, poor Indira Varma who was lovely in "Rome" got shunted into that thankless Season 5 stint as Ellaria (she was still lovely in Season 4 but ... whoa, Season 5).

And speaking of Ellaria: I think one of Martin's huge themes is that revenge (however righteous and satisfying it may seem at first) does a number on you eventually. That's why both Catelyn and Ellaria point out the futility of vengeance. That's why Lady Stoneheart is a figure of terror, not justice; why Manderly - who is a great character - is also repeating the story of the Rat Cook; honestly it's why Oberyn ends up with his skull caved in, and it's also why Arya doesn't kill Meryn Trant to avenge Syrio/save little girls )(after thinking about Needle representing vengeance rather than Jon Snow's smile) but kills Daeron whom she's never met before, because he's a NW deserter and she considers her duty as a Stark to execute him for that (even though I'm not 100% sure I concur.) The point is: vengeance comes back on the avenger. But ... the show doesn't really seem to see things the same way, to put it mildly. In fact, it valorizes revenge to a degree (and that's why it's surprising that they never cast the Public Faces of Revenge from the books: Manderly and Lady Stoneheart, though perhaps it was clear even to people who'd skimmed the Cliff Notes version of the books that those two took vengeance a step too far? Or else there was no way to make a fat cannibal and a revivified corpse look sexy :P)

I think that if Westeros is going to be saved, someone is going to have to break the cycle of atrocity and revenge.  Someone is going to have to listen to (book) Ellaria, and take what she says to heart.  There aren't many revenges in the books (in my view) that are truly satisfying. Either the revenger goes to far, or gets the wrong person.  LSH hanging Black Walder would be great;  but Merrett Frey just comes over as pathetic rather than evil. Lord Manderly eating the Freys is funny, but grotesque.  Oberyn got to poison Gregor Clegane, but got himself killed in the process.  Doran, Arianne, and the Sand Snakes will probably destroy themselves, even as they get revenge on the Martells' enemies.  In any case, Tommen (and even Cersei) are hardly legitimate targets for retaliation for the murder of Elia and her children.

The only really satisfying revenge I can think of is Arya stabbing the Tickler to death.

And yes, this very important theme is absent from the Show.  Revenge is good.  Revenge is badass.

 

[White Harbors Wrath]

What about that Northern Lord w/ the rousing speech who changes allegiances or whatever? How does that even fit into this? Which side does he change to? We've seen Hornwood, Umber, Mormont & Karstark sigils in relation to the Battle of the Bastards...no other banners.

Wasn't there like 6 Lords cast?

Stronghold guy

Rousing speech

Young guy thrust into power

Which ones am I forgetting?