Marvel Cinematic Universe General Discussion 5: Getting some Strange

[The BlackBear]

I see the redhead thing is just general shorthand for fiery and outgoing. (it also stands out more by virtue of being rarer.) It'd be nice if they can establish that in other ways. I have no problem them changing characters as long as it doesn't conflict with their core characteristics. Generally speaking changing the race of characters shouldn't change them much.

[mormont]

4 hours ago, Rhom said:

I dunno.  It's not powers, but red hair has pretty much been the defining aspect of her character since inception.  

No, it's been an aspect of her appearance.

Her character is a completely different thing. The defining aspects of MJ's character, since inception, have been that she's confident, fun-loving, and passionate. These things, not her hair colour, are what made the character popular and gave her longevity. Her hair colour was an arbitrary choice by an artist looking for inspiration. It's not an 'interpretation' of the character. It's a hair colour.

Nobody would dream of saying that brown hair is 'the defining aspect' of Peter Parker's character or that blonde hair is the 'defining aspect' of Flash Thompson's character. Reducing female characters to their appearance is a major, major problem in comics. Let's not perpetuate it.

[Which Tyler]

I know nothing about this actress (beyond a quick google now); but have no problem at all with MJ being non-white. If hair colour is really an issue, then there's always hair dye.

The only thing I would comment on, is that it'd be nice if Hollywood's idea of diversity wasn't always to cast African-American, almost mever to go East Asian, or South Asian, Arabic, North African, Euro-Mediteranean or Latino etc; it seems ot be black, white, or some combination of the two. Maybe it's my European bias, where we have different Ethnic mixes, but it really stands out to me.

[WolfOfWinter]

1 hour ago, Which Tyler said:

I know nothing about this actress (beyond a quick google now); but have no problem at all with MJ being non-white. If hair colour is really an issue, then there's always hair dye.

The only thing I would comment on, is that it'd be nice if Hollywood's idea of diversity wasn't always to cast African-American, almost mever to go East Asian, or South Asian, Arabic, North African, Euro-Mediteranean or Latino etc; it seems ot be black, white, or some combination of the two. Maybe it's my European bias, where we have different Ethnic mixes, but it really stands out to me.

I feel the same way. Have we had any South Asian/Middle Eastern characters yet except for those terrorists in the first IM movie? Is it just me misremembering or has that not happened (yet)?

[Which Tyler]

45 minutes ago, WolfOfWinter said:

I feel the same way. Have we had any South Asian/Middle Eastern characters yet except for those terrorists in the first IM movie? Is it just me misremembering or has that not happened (yet)?

Does Sir Ben Kingsley count? he's Kinda-half-Indian? or does he count as Kind-half-African for Hollywood purposes? (His father is Indian/Kenyan IIRC)

[Bastard of Boston]

You have to consider that all of these iconic characters were created in the mid-1900s. If you made a Spider-Man movie and didn't change the race of any of his inner circle, the entire movie would be lily white. The argument to that has been "Well, they can put in characters who are actually Black." That's a poor rebuttal, though, as nobody wants to watch a Spider-Man movie with original characters...people don't want to see Spider-Man and his friends, "Frank" and "Jennifer" -- who didn't exist before the movie. They want to see Spider-Man and his friends, Harry and Mary Jane. You have to bend the rules to be inclusive.

 

And, honestly, I get it. So much of the cool factor of these movies is seeing the panels brought to life in live action. But, come on...canon is only canon until someone comes along to change it. Does anyone even remember Nick Fury "isn't supposed to be" Black, anymore?

[The Wolves]

6 hours ago, Which Tyler said:

I know nothing about this actress (beyond a quick google now); but have no problem at all with MJ being non-white. If hair colour is really an issue, then there's always hair dye.

The only thing I would comment on, is that it'd be nice if Hollywood's idea of diversity wasn't always to cast African-American, almost mever to go East Asian, or South Asian, Arabic, North African, Euro-Mediteranean or Latino etc; it seems ot be black, white, or some combination of the two. Maybe it's my European bias, where we have different Ethnic mixes, but it really stands out to me.

I agree with the this. I want all kinds of diversity in my movies and television. 

I remember that there was a doctor who was South Korean in AOU, I was hoping that Marvel would do more with the character, but we haven't seen her since the end of AOU. 

[Rhom]

25 minutes ago, Bastard of Boston said:

You have to consider that all of these iconic characters were created in the mid-1900s. If you made a Spider-Man movie and didn't change the race of any of his inner circle, the entire movie would be lily white. The argument to that has been "Well, they can put in characters who are actually Black." That's a poor rebuttal, though, as nobody wants to watch a Spider-Man movie with original characters...people don't want to see Spider-Man and his friends, "Frank" and "Jennifer" -- who didn't exist before the movie. They want to see Spider-Man and his friends, Harry and Mary Jane. You have to bend the rules to be inclusive.

 

And, honestly, I get it. So much of the cool factor of these movies is seeing the panels brought to life in live action. But, come on...canon is only canon until someone comes along to change it. Does anyone even remember Nick Fury "isn't supposed to be" Black, anymore?

How many people in the average moving going demographic do you think had ever heard of Gwen Stacy?

I would argue that for most comic book properties, even the most iconic, the vast majority of movie goers wouldn't know if a character was new or old.

[Lockjaw of House Boltagon]

BREAKING NEWS!

The part of Mary Jane has just been recast because apparently red hair is the sole defining trait of the character. Here is the new actor.

Now the racis...er, sorry, the purists can rejoice. 

Anyway, I'm not happy about the Runaways news at all. I looove the Runaways, but

1) I don't think Hulu has the necessary budget for sparkly aliens, velociraptors, fire gloves, magic staffs, etc.

2) The showrunners don't exactly inspire confidence considering their track record (Gossip Girl and the OC, IIRC)

3) I think the story lends itself better to a movie format. A tv series would stretch the material unnecessarily, IMO.

 

[mormont]

1 hour ago, Rhom said:

How many people in the average moving going demographic do you think had ever heard of Gwen Stacy?

That's an argument that cuts both ways, though. How many people in that demographic do you think have heard of Mary-Jane Watson? How many of them know that she's a redhead in the comics? How many feel it's important that she be a redheaded white person in the movie? Not that many, I'm guessing. I would argue that the moviegoing audience don't know or don't care.

[Bastard of Boston]

1 hour ago, Rhom said:

How many people in the average moving going demographic do you think had ever heard of Gwen Stacy?

I would argue that for most comic book properties, even the most iconic, the vast majority of movie goers wouldn't know if a character was new or old.

So, what does it matter if MJ is Black? Using your own rationale.

[Rhom]

Perhaps I should have clarified.  I do think most people know about Mary Jane.  She's his Lois Lane.  She's iconic.  I don't think they knew about Harry or Gwen prior to the movies.

If you only knew Spidey on a surface level prior to the Raimi movies; I think you'd know him, Doc Ock, Mary Jane, and maybe Perry.

[mormont]

3 hours ago, Rhom said:

Perhaps I should have clarified.  I do think most people know about Mary Jane.  She's his Lois Lane.  She's iconic.  I don't think they knew about Harry or Gwen prior to the movies.

If you only knew Spidey on a surface level prior to the Raimi movies; I think you'd know him, Doc Ock, Mary Jane, and maybe Perry.

... do you mean J. Jonah Jamieson?

I think a lot more people know and care about Jonah's moustache than MJ's hair. Like, a lot. And it still isn't a significant number.

[Rhom]

10 minutes ago, mormont said:

... do you mean J. Jonah Jamieson?

I think a lot more people know and care about Jonah's moustache than MJ's hair. Like, a lot. And it still isn't a significant number.

Yeah... Typo.  Was thinking Jonah and typed Perry White obviously.

I disagree though.  I think the red hair is a major feature.  

[Bastard of Boston]

I'm not sure what they're planning, but the bait/switch is apparently written into the script. That said, when it comes time for the name reveal, they can just as easily reveal her, in all her red-headed glory.

I liked James Gunn's response to all of this.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 hour ago, Rhom said:

Yeah... Typo.  Was thinking Jonah and typed Perry White obviously.

I disagree though.  I think the red hair is a major feature.  

Yeah, I have to agree. Any Spidey fan worth his or her salt knows MJ is a redhead, Tiger!

[sperry]

People getting angry about changing a fictional character, in a medium where the characters are killed off, rebooted and changed all the fucking time.

 

If the defining characteristic of a character is that they have red hair, that's not a particulary worthwhile character.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

5 minutes ago, sperry said:

People getting angry about changing a fictional character, in a medium where the characters are killed off, rebooted and changed all the fucking time.

 

If the defining characteristic of a character is that they have red hair, that's not a particulary worthwhile character.

Not necessarily 'the" defining characteristic, but certainly "a" defining characteristic.

That said, I agree that it's not anything to get angry about. 

[James Arryn]

15 hours ago, Which Tyler said:

 

The only thing I would comment on, is that it'd be nice if Hollywood's idea of diversity wasn't always to cast African-American, almost mever to go East Asian, or South Asian, Arabic, North African, Euro-Mediteranean or Latino etc; it seems ot be black, white, or some combination of the two. Maybe it's my European bias, where we have different Ethnic mixes, but it really stands out to me.

Yes, absolutely.

[James Arryn]

6 hours ago, Rhom said:

Perhaps I should have clarified.  I do think most people know about Mary Jane.  She's his Lois Lane.  She's iconic.  I don't think they knew about Harry or Gwen prior to the movies.

If you only knew Spidey on a surface level prior to the Raimi movies; I think you'd know him, Doc Ock, Mary Jane, and maybe Perry.

Lois Lane's hair colour has been all over the place, though. Mostly back, but also lighter brown, auburn, red...basically everything but blonde. Not sure it's much of a defining characteristic.