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Marvel Cinematic Universe General Discussion 5: Getting some Strange


GallowKnight

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Had a thought while posting in Suicide Squad thread.

So in this thread I've been told that red hair is a description not a character trait... But why all the fuss over Joker having tattoos?  They also would be a descriptor not a character trait, no?

What if the Joker didn't have green hair?

There are some characters who are so uniquely attached to their physical description that I believe anything short of that is selling the character short.

RE:. Lois Lane.  I said nothing of her hair.  I don't believe that to be a major descriptor.  I was speaking of what character is most closely identified with a superhero to the point that non comic fans would know them.  I'd say it's Robin to Batman.  Lois to Superman.  And I would say Mary Jane to Spidey,

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54 minutes ago, Rhom said:

Had a thought while posting in Suicide Squad thread.

So in this thread I've been told that red hair is a description not a character trait... But why all the fuss over Joker having tattoos?  They also would be a descriptor not a character trait, no?

 

The decision to get a tattoo is a character trait.

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34 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

 

The decision to get a tattoo is a character trait.

All comes down to the overall appearance.  Joker has green hair and white skin.  He typically doesn't have tattoos.  Mary Jane is a redhead.

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1 minute ago, Rhom said:

All comes down to the overall appearance.  Joker has green hair and white skin.  He typically doesn't have tattoos.  Mary Jane is a redhead.

I'm guessing Leto kind of drew from Miller's Joker in All-Star Batman in Robin. He was tattooed, although not in the same manner as Leto.

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9 minutes ago, Rhom said:

All comes down to the overall appearance.  Joker has green hair and white skin.  He typically doesn't have tattoos.  Mary Jane is a redhead.

 

Yeah, but Joker's appearance is a direct part of his backstory and symbolic of his persona as the evil clown. That isn't true of MJ, who is just ginger.

I mean, I do think it's an iconic thing about the character but it isn't part of her character. It would be cool if they died her hair red in some way but what she's actually like is more important and I'd be more worried that the actress is apparently describing her as 'kind of awkward' than that she's not redhead.

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3 hours ago, polishgenius said:

 

Yeah, but Joker's appearance is a direct part of his backstory and symbolic of his persona as the evil clown. That isn't true of MJ, who is just ginger.

I mean, I do think it's an iconic thing about the character but it isn't part of her character. It would be cool if they died her hair red in some way but what she's actually like is more important and I'd be more worried that the actress is apparently describing her as 'kind of awkward' than that she's not redhead.

Would be a travesty.  Mary Jane is a lot of things, but awkward is not one of them.

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5 hours ago, Rhom said:

Had a thought while posting in Suicide Squad thread.

So in this thread I've been told that red hair is a description not a character trait... But why all the fuss over Joker having tattoos?  They also would be a descriptor not a character trait, no?

Well, I'm the person that said that, and I'm also the person who said in that thread that the tattoos were not a big deal.

I found the Joker in SS disappointing because he had green hair and so on but didn't really show many of the character traits of the Joker.

But it is, still, an apples and oranges comparison, because the Joker's appearance is not an accident of birth (or, actually, a random choice by an artist) in the way that MJ's hair colour is.

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There are some characters who are so uniquely attached to their physical description that I believe anything short of that is selling the character short.

Sure: the Thing being rocky, for example. But it would be absurd to say that Mary-Jane Watson is one of those.

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On 19/08/2016 at 5:09 AM, Rhom said:

I dunno.  It's not powers, but red hair has pretty much been the defining aspect of her character since inception.  I don't think it's racist to want to stick with the interpretation of the character that has always been in place.

Sure but Zendaya can dye her hair red. Here she is with red hair: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CJhWEliVEAQCyEw.jpg she looks great. I haven't really seen her act but I'm confident in Marvel's casting here. It's a different continuity which has had far larger changes to the source material than changing MJ's race.

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Seriously though does anybody know anyone named Mary-Jane who is remotely that young? (or at all?) That's all that's bothering me. It seems to me more an old-timey slang term for pot than a name for a human girl. 

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1 hour ago, RumHam said:

Seriously though does anybody know anyone named Mary-Jane who is remotely that young? (or at all?) That's all that's bothering me. It seems to me more an old-timey slang term for pot than a name for a human girl. 

That's the case with all comic-book characters given the sliding origin time - names that were common when the character was first created are not so now. How many non-Australian men called Bruce do you know?

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On 19/08/2016 at 10:59 AM, WolfOfWinter said:

I feel the same way. Have we had any South Asian/Middle Eastern characters yet except for those terrorists in the first IM movie? Is it just me misremembering or has that not happened (yet)?

There was an Asian-American Howling Commando in the first Captain America film but I can't think of many others in the films (Agents of Shield does better in this respect).

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I was reading Spiderman in the 70's ... (Both myself, and Peter Parker are from Queens) .... Mary Jane's defining characteristic isn't that she's a Redhead... it's that she is way-too-pretty for a nerd like Peter... and that she's also such a terrific kid that she is drawn to him anyway...  That said, I trust Marvel's casting... they have a pretty good track record

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On 20/08/2016 at 11:22 AM, Bastard of Boston said:

I'm not sure what they're planning, but the bait/switch is apparently written into the script. That said, when it comes time for the name reveal, they can just as easily reveal her, in all her red-headed glory.

I liked James Gunn's response to all of this.

Ummmm

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As per usual, whenever the casting of a traditionally white character is given to a person of color, the internet’s reaction can get pretty interesting to say the least. Examples that come to mind are Michael B. Jordan’s casting as Johnny Storm inFantastic Four as well as Tilda Swinton’s casting as the Ancient One in Doctor Strange

I didn't realise Tilda Swinton is a person of colour, and that the Ancient One is a traditionally white character. :-D

The dumb thing about complaining about hair colour is that hair colour is pretty much the easiest of all physical attributes to change, because y'know, wigs and hair dye. 

My concerns over Zendaya are: I have an automatic scepticism about a celebrity her age who has no surname; and what has she been in that's any good? I look at her filmography and I am wholly unimpressed. Is she actually any good, or is she just a pretty face, who can sing and dance, neither attributes being at all relevant to this movie?

One might say that super hero movies don't need talented actors, but if some hack had done Iron Man instead of RDJr we might not even have a MCU today. MJ may be merely a supporting character, but she's THE supporting character for Spider Man so the movie needs a quality actor in this role, dependin on how they write the movie she could be more the female lead rather than a supporting character. Kirsten Dunst had been in some quality stuff before the Maguire Spider Man movies. And Emma Stone had also proved herself on the big stage before ASM.

But maybe my concerns are all because I'm old and had never heard of her before she was announced as being cast in Homecoming.

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1 hour ago, williamjm said:

There was an Asian-American Howling Commando in the first Captain America film but I can't think of many others in the films (Agents of Shield does better in this respect).

There are a few more South Asian/Middle eastern character in the Marvel movies, but not huge roles.  

Iron Man had the guy helping Tony in the cave who wasn't a terrorist, as well as the villagers he saves.  

Thor movies have Hogun,

Age of Ultron has Dr. Cho.

Winter Soldier, one of the Council members overseeing SHIELD

Don't remember any others.

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11 minutes ago, Martini Sigil said:

I was reading Spiderman in the 70's ... (Both myself, and Peter Parker are from Queens) .... Mary Jane's defining characteristic isn't that she's a Redhead... it's that she is way-too-pretty for a nerd like Peter... and that she's also such a terrific kid that she is drawn to him anyway...  That said, I trust Marvel's casting... they have a pretty good track record

Yeah, that's every nerd's dream, right? And since superhero comics are either written by nerds or mostly read by nerds, it's a fantasy that permeates a lot of this literature, I think.

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53 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Is she actually any good, or is she just a pretty face, who can sing and dance, neither attributes being at all relevant to this movie?

Hey now we don't know that. I seem to remember a fair amount of dancing in Spider Man 3.

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I have nieces, and have had to sit through Shake It Up, the Disney show that she is/was on. It's a horrendous abomination and I basically can't stand her.......but, you know, I'm sure Marvel know what they're doing. I'm just gonna struggle to rid that show from my brain. Seriously, I wonder how many people are aware that the once wholesome and healthy Disney pump out this utter dross on their channel.

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3 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

I have nieces, and have had to sit through Shake It Up, the Disney show that she is/was on. It's a horrendous abomination and I basically can't stand her.......but, you know, I'm sure Marvel know what they're doing. I'm just gonna struggle to rid that show from my brain. Seriously, I wonder how many people are aware that the once wholesome and healthy Disney pump out this utter dross on their channel.

Disney has pumped out shows like that for a long while now. They were never really my thing but they do appeal to certain kids. I know what you mean about it being difficult to rid an image of an actor/actress from your mind once they have been in something terrible, but it doesn't necessarily mean they are bad at acting (Please note I've not actually seen this woman act. For all I know she will be Marvel's Henry Cavill)

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