Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 2 minutes ago, briantw said: And come on...Kevin Love is indisputably a better player than Andrew Wiggins right now. Can't say I agree with that. Has Love figured out how to play defense yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 7 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: Can't say I agree with that. Has Love figured out how to play defense yet? Has Wiggings done it? Honest question - the few times I've watched he looked awful on D for all his athleticism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DunderMifflin Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 They definately should have been aware of the 50/50 chances of Love injuries. Of his 4 years as a starter in Minnesota he played a full season two of them. The other 2 he played 55 games and 18 games. I've always believed staying healthy is a skill just as much as any other basketball skill. Injuries aren't always just fluke things that happen that's totally dependent on luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 1 hour ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: Can't say I agree with that. Has Love figured out how to play defense yet? Sometimes we let our emotions cloud our judgement =P Currently, as it stands, there is NO QUESTION that Love is a better player than Wiggins. 19.08 PER for Love, 16.61 for Wiggins. And Love passes the eye test as well, as a stretch 4, even a 5, who can bomb threes. There is really no debate on who the better player is CURRENTLY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briantw Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 1 minute ago, DunderMifflin said: They definately should have been aware of the 50/50 chances of Love injuries. Of his 4 years as a starter in Minnesota he played a full season two of them. The other 2 he played 55 games and 18 games. The season he played 55 games there were only 66 total games. Acting like Love is injury-prone is ridiculous. He had one season where he got hurt and missed most of it. Other than that he's missed more than 12 games once, and that was his sophomore year in the league. He's played 75 or more games each of the past three seasons. 17 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: Can't say I agree with that. Has Love figured out how to play defense yet? You can agree to be wrong, then. Kevin Love is indisputably better than Andrew Wiggins right now, and all the stats back it up. Like, literally all of them. It's obvious that Love is a better passer and rebounder (Wiggins is poor at both, especially for a tall athletic wing), but he also has a higher PER (listed in a post above), a higher VORP (2.8 to -0.1), a better BPM (2.5 to -2.1), better OBPM and DBPM (1.7/0.9 to 0.4/-2.5), and higher offensive and defensive win shares (4.7/3.8 to 3.4/0.7). Love is better in basically every advanced stat that exists, usually significantly so. As far as defense goes, based on advanced stats, not only is Love a net positive on defense, but he's a lot better defensively than Wiggins is. This idea that Love doesn't play defense needs to die a quick death. It's never really been true, and it's definitely not true right now. Love is not a rim protector, and thus he generally doesn't try to block shots when someone else's man cuts to the rim, but he's a very solid man-to-man defender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeu Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 14 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: Yeah, going 73-9 involves an incredible amount of luck. Actually, it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 52 minutes ago, David Selig said: Has Wiggings done it? Honest question - the few times I've watched he looked awful on D for all his athleticism. To be fair, I think I've watched 3 T-Wolves games all season, but it seems to me he's a better overall defender than Love. And he just finished his 2nd season. I agree that CURRENTLY Love is the better player, but I don't think it's by all that much. When you factor in the cap hit, I'd have to say that Wiggins is the better value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briantw Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 1 minute ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: To be fair, I think I've watched 3 T-Wolves games all season, but it seems to me he's a better overall defender than Love. And he just finished his 2nd season. I agree that CURRENTLY Love is the better player, but I don't think it's by all that much. When you factor in the cap hit, I'd have to say that Wiggins is the better value. Based on every advanced stat that exists, Wiggins is not a good defender. He probably will become one, but he's generally a net negative on the floor right now defensively. That's not true of Love. Love is a net positive defensive player according to stats, and he passes the eye test as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 1 hour ago, aeu said: Actually, it does. It really really does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DunderMifflin Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 Kevin Love 2010 season - broken hand misses first 18 games of the season. 2011 season - missed the final six games and nine of the last 11 games of the season due to the injury. 2013 season - played in 18 total games This is enough IMO to see a player is at risk for injury. Really only the 2012 and 2014 seasons are really all that there is here as far as injuries not being a huge factor. They were stellar solo statistical seasons for Love no doubt, but they didn't sniff the playoffs while he was top dog there. I know there's a million excuses for why not but I'll not buy them. I remember when the trade hit the rumor mill people immediately started questioning Loves durability. It's certainly not some ridiculous notion. Then surprise, he didn't complete the season with Cleveland. [Insert excuse] but he didnt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 17 minutes ago, briantw said: Based on every advanced stat that exists, Wiggins is not a good defender. He probably will become one, but he's generally a net negative on the floor right now defensively. That's not true of Love. Love is a net positive defensive player according to stats, and he passes the eye test as well. Again, I've seen about as much of Love as I have of Wiggins this season, so I'll defer to those that follow their teams. I still think that was a bad trade given the circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briantw Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 4 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said: Really only the 2012 and 2014 seasons are really all that there is here as far as injuries not being a huge factor. They were stellar solo statistical seasons for Love no doubt, but they didn't sniff the playoffs while he was top dog there. I know there's a million excuses for why not but I'll not buy them. You won't buy that his team blew every other draft pick for half a decade and he didn't make the playoffs because he was in the West and dragging his shit teammates to .500 wasn't enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DunderMifflin Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 15 minutes ago, briantw said: Yeh it's unfair to blame twolves lack of postseason on Love. But him leading them to a .500 season is not enough IMO to trade away the possible potential you have with Wiggins. Especially when you add in Loves injury concerns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted April 26, 2016 Author Share Posted April 26, 2016 1 hour ago, David Selig said: Has Wiggings done it? Honest question - the few times I've watched he looked awful on D for all his athleticism. He's a very good 1 on 1 defender, but has been bad in a team concept. I expect that to change under Thibs. That said, I think Cleveland would be better with Wiggins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted April 26, 2016 Author Share Posted April 26, 2016 17 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: Again, I've seen about as much of Love as I have of Wiggins this season, so I'll defer to those that follow their teams. I still think that was a bad trade given the circumstances. Well you did just see him drop 32 points/ 5 rebounds/ 4 assists/ 6 steals on your Dubs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 16 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: Well you did just see him drop 32 points/ 5 rebounds/ 4 assists/ 6 steals on your Dubs Yeah, and I thought he played really well in their first game against the T-Wolves as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhom Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 Push notification from ESPN just told my phone that Blake Griffin is out for the rest of the playoffs with his quad injury. Boy... for all the changes over the years... the Clippers are still the Clippers aren't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DunderMifflin Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 I need to see a couple of cellar dwelling seasons before I say they are still the Clippers. The Clippers tradition is winning a max of 20-30 games a season. Not bad luck in the playoffs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted April 26, 2016 Author Share Posted April 26, 2016 16 minutes ago, Rhom said: Push notification from ESPN just told my phone that Blake Griffin is out for the rest of the playoffs with his quad injury. Boy... for all the changes over the years... the Clippers are still the Clippers aren't they? Time for DJ to get exposed. Can the Blazers beat a Curryless Warriors? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted April 26, 2016 Author Share Posted April 26, 2016 30 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: Yeah, and I thought he played really well in their first game against the T-Wolves as well. He has a really good all around game. His biggest flaw is that he doesn't move well off the ball, which was true of the entire team though, so that makes me think it might just be coaching. And Thibs will change that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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