A trip back in time to think about the dancing shadows in the tent during Mirri Maz Duur's ritual.

[Macgregor of the North]

This is a topic I have always found interesting but haven't had the chance to talk about it because it is ancient history now and by the time I came on forums the subject threads have been long archived.

I'm interested to know what people's views are on the Great wolf and man in flames shadows who appear in the tent during Mirri Maz Duur's ritual. 

I must admit on first read of AGOT I never gave it massive thought but on rereads I gave it more thought each time and after reading Dany's last 3 chapters in AGOT recently I found myself thinking the same thing I have before. 

On research of older threads others have thought the same as me and people have also thought different and I think it simply boils down to different interpretations so I wondered what people nowadays think as obviously the books are being read by more and more people all the time. 

My view is that the shadows are spirit shadows of the dead, made able to appear to collect the death that must pay for life by the power that has been awoken due to MMD's spellsong. 

The spirits who have chosen to appear are Brandon and Rickard Stark with obvious angry grievances against house Targaryen and Aerys' line. 

I'll place the quote for reference although we all know the descriptions.

 "She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames."

This is how I view it mostly although the other way my mind sees it is with a slight variation but I'll admit I think I view it this way because I try to give Dany's dream of Rhaego some meaning in regards to the ritual. 

In this instance I think it may be the Great wolf is a manifestation of Brandon and Rickards spirits and the man wreathed in flames is Rhaego as per Dany's dream we see after. 

Quote for reference:

"She could feel the heat inside her, a terrible burning in her womb. Her son was tall and proud, with Drogo's copper skin and her own silver-gold hair, violet eyes shaped like almonds. And he smiled for her and began to lift his hand toward hers, but when he opened his mouth the fire poured out. She saw his heart burning through his chest, and in an instant he was gone, consumed like a moth by a candle, turned to ash. She wept for her child, the promise of a sweet mouth on her breast, but her tears turned to steam as they touched her skin."

I'll add, I tend to sway to my first opinion and like I said upon reading again recently it's what I still thought was happening. 

Anybody else have any different views on what's going on? Or does anybody agree and is this what they also thought? 

Or better yet! Is there a sly GRRM SSM out there anybody can guide me to that I've not yet seen where George explains or hints at what's going on?.

 

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

The wolf is Lyanna. She's "wrestling" with Rhaegar, a man wreathed in flames. They are conceiving Jon Snow. His is the song of ice and fire. 

[Macgregor of the North]

5 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The wolf is Lyanna. She's "wrestling" with Rhaegar, a man wreathed in flames. They are conceiving Jon Snow. His is the song of ice and fire. 

As in conceiving Jon before they both died? 

I think the shadows are spirits of dead people but cant know for sure.

"You must. Once I begin to sing, no one must enter this tent. My song will wake powers old and dark. The dead will dance here this night. No living man must look on them."

If it is Lyanna and Rhaegars dead spirits why would they choose to come through during a ritual that is malicious in intent toward Dany? 

Cheers for commenting btw, I'd like to see   a few different views on this.

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

What the author has Daenerys describe for usare not the actual demons summoned but a hint at the underlying plot. 

[Macgregor of the North]

3 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

What the author has Daenerys describe for usare not the actual demons summoned but a hint at the underlying plot. 

Have you a link where GRRM states this? I would love to read anything he has to say on this topic but can't find nothing.

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

26 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Have you a link where GRRM states this? I would love to read anything he has to say on this topic but can't find nothing.

 

The George didn't say it. I did. But for some reason, there is no collection of So Spake Lost Melniboneans. 

Seriously, I was expressing an opinion. I apologize for giving you the impression that I was stating a fact from an SSM. 

[Macgregor of the North]

13 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The George didn't say it. I did. But for some reason, there is no collection of So Spake Lost Melniboneans. 

Seriously, I was expressing an opinion. I apologize for giving you the impression that I was stating a fact from an SSM. 

Cool, it seemed like you were in on some info I wasn't by the way you were stating  it quite matter of factly, the SSM's can be hard to find and maybe I had missed one. But if that's your view on it cheers for sharing. 

Why would you see Rhaegar as a man wreathed in flames though I'm curious? I get the Lyanna wolf bit, but not the Rhaegar part at all. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I always am reminded of Patchfaces ditty. 

The shadows come to dance, my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord. The shadows come to stay, my lord, stay my lord, stay my lord

when I re read the tent scene. However I am inclined to think MMD was using the same spell that Thoros uses to raise Beric, but has added something which causes him to come back without his mind. We know she has learnt many magics and knowledge. We know the "prayer" Thoros says involves some words and a flame, and MMD calls for a brazier and she sings. She deliberately creates a theatrical element to her spell casting, she uses the fear powder Mellisandre describes, and gives that dire sounding warning. I've long felt that the Spell was not in fact intended to kill Rhaego.  But that it was coincidental. No other Targ babies born with his features survived, and there have been several recorded in their history. I think it was just coincidence and that MMD chose to let Dany believe she caused it. 

MMD kills the horse, and we see these shadows. these are elements we know Thoros didn't tell us are used for the Prayer, it seems highly unlikely too that they are.  So it is MMD adding in another spell or just theatre. Given Drogo comes back to life and is altered, unlike Beric, who doesn't really change much until he has been resurrected several times, and Drogo isn't just missing little bits of his memory, he is completely catatonic. I'm inclined to think the real mischief MMD was performing was to bring him back without his mind. So think the horses blood was used for that, and the shadows either a part of that ritual, or maybe even just more smoke and mirrors?? could be just a trick? maybe she also cast a powder onto the braizer prior to everyone leaving the tent which causes hallucinations? 

These are just a few musings. Thoughts, ideas, I'm interested in discussion here. open minded and explorative of the less obvious interpretations of that scene. 

 

[Macgregor of the North]

2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I always am reminded of Patchfaces ditty. 

The shadows come to dance, my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord. The shadows come to stay, my lord, stay my lord, stay my lord

when I re read the tent scene. However I am inclined to think MMD was using the same spell that Thoros uses to raise Beric, but has added something which causes him to come back without his mind. We know she has learnt many magics and knowledge. We know the "prayer" Thoros says involves some words and a flame, and MMD calls for a brazier and she sings. She deliberately creates a theatrical element to her spell casting, she uses the fear powder Mellisandre describes, and gives that dire sounding warning. I've long felt that the Spell was not in fact intended to kill Rhaego.  But that it was coincidental. No other Targ babies born with his features survived, and there have been several recorded in their history. I think it was just coincidence and that MMD chose to let Dany believe she caused it. 

MMD kills the horse, and we see these shadows. these are elements we know Thoros didn't tell us are used for the Prayer, it seems highly unlikely too that they are.  So it is MMD adding in another spell or just theatre. Given Drogo comes back to life and is altered, unlike Beric, who doesn't really change much until he has been resurrected several times, and Drogo isn't just missing little bits of his memory, he is completely catatonic. I'm inclined to think the real mischief MMD was performing was to bring him back without his mind. So think the horses blood was used for that, and the shadows either a part of that ritual, or maybe even just more smoke and mirrors?? could be just a trick? maybe she also cast a powder onto the braizer prior to everyone leaving the tent which causes hallucinations? 

These are just a few musings. Thoughts, ideas, I'm interested in discussion here. open minded and explorative of the less obvious interpretations of that scene. 

 

Good mention on Patchfaces wee song. It certainly brings that to mind. 

On the powders, I think the powders these sorceress types use are mainly just for fire or smoke effects or have a purpose for the ritual in regards to the fire side of it, I don't think they play a part in what shadows are roused or seen by spectators like hallucinations etc.

Mel says herself her powders are running low but she will not need them anyway since her power is so strong at the Wall and even without the powders the shadows she will bring forth will be terrible etc., So I think MMD's powder was just a wee extra for the fire to be roused as it seems these rituals need fire as well as blood. 

The fear powder is something different I think, it was just one potion Mel had that created smoke for fear, incidentally not the same one MMD is using I don't think. 

So if Mel can bring shadows forth without her powders then I think that MMD is doing the same thing, she has actually awoken powers so strong with her spellsong and shadow spirits of the dead have came to take part in the ritual but not due to the powders.

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I 

"And quickly."

While the boy was gone, Melisandre washed herself and changed her robes. Her sleeves were full of hidden pockets, and she checked them carefully as she did every morning to make certain all her powders were in place. Powders to turn fire green or blue or silver, powders to make a flame roar and hiss and leap up higher than a man is tall, powders to make smoke. A smoke for truth, a smoke for lust, a smoke for fear, and the thick black smoke that could kill a man outright. The red priestess armed herself with a pinch of each of them. 

The carved chest that she had brought across the narrow sea was more than three-quarters empty now. And while Melisandre had the knowledge to make more powders, she lacked many rare ingredients. My spells should suffice. She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture was more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them. With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need of the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers.

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

The reason people think that MMD uses the Fear powder, and as far as I recall we are not told she uses any, but it is widely theorised she uses this one, is because everyone runs from the tent and is overwhelmed with a sense of fear. 

The idea that she may have a hallucinogenic powder also, is just an off the cuff idea. 

To be quite honest for the most part. I wondered if the Shadows in the tent are shadow babies of a sort. We know MMD studied in Asshai too, and will likely have learnt shadow binding. We don't know all the ins and outs of shadow binding. Only one method, which Mel uses. But surely these mysterious women have more than one trick up their sleeves? And besides MMD had recently had sex. She may well have used the Rapists sperm to create a few monstrosities of her own? Again just spit balling. 

[Macgregor of the North]

8 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

The reason people think that MMD uses the Fear powder, and as far as I recall we are not told she uses any, but it is widely theorised she uses this one, is because everyone runs from the tent and is overwhelmed with a sense of fear. 

The idea that she may have a hallucinogenic powder also, is just an off the cuff idea. 

To be quite honest for the most part. I wondered if the Shadows in the tent are shadow babies of a sort. We know MMD studied in Asshai too, and will likely have learnt shadow binding. We don't know all the ins and outs of shadow binding. Only one method, which Mel uses. But surely these mysterious women have more than one trick up their sleeves? And besides MMD had recently had sex. She may well have used the Rapists sperm to create a few monstrosities of her own? Again just spit balling. 

Mirri does use a powder and upon reading the quote of Mels it may back up actually that it's a fear smoke powder, cool. I'm quite settled with that now upon rethinking actually. 

"Braziers were lit. Mirri Maz Duur tossed a red powder onto the coals. It gave the smoke a spicy scent, a pleasant enough smell, yet Eroeh fled sobbing, and Dany was filled with fear. But she had gone too far to turn back now. She sent her handmaids away."

It is mentioned it effects the smoke and Mel says the same. 

As to the shadows, I am sure they are the dead dancing. Actual spirits of the dead from the grave(lol that sounds dramatic I know).

"That may be as it may be," answered Mirri Maz Duur, "yet the creature that came forth from your womb was as I said. Death was in that tent, Khaleesi."

"Only shadows," Ser Jorah husked, but Dany could hear the doubt in his voice. "I saw, maegi. I saw you, alone, dancing with the shadows." 

"The grave casts long shadows, Iron Lord," Mirri said. "Long and dark, and in the end no light can hold them back."

That's interesting about MMD being raped earlier and the shadows possibly something from that but wouldn't MMD need to birth the shadows herself like Mel did? 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Ah, it does say she uses one. Excellent. 

 

I'm inclined to take everything MMD ever says with a gigantic pinch of salt. Basically I think she is full of shit. For a start only death does not pay for life. 

We see several other examples of resurrections without any death. Yet often people take it as absolute that she is correct. 

MMD has a definite agenda and everything she does and says is suspect. Her use of the fear powder say a lot. As does her damning sounding prophesy for Dany, who it turned out wasn't infertile at all. 

I'll admit, I am not one for spirits and what not. So I tend to want to find explanations for these things. The actual dead being present in the form of spirits doesn't sit very well with me. So I look for magic. But really when you look at most things in this series they turn out to be explainable with the use of Magic. 

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

6 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Cool, it seemed like you were in on some info I wasn't by the way you were stating  it quite matter of factly, the SSM's can be hard to find and maybe I had missed one. But if that's your view on it cheers for sharing. 

Why would you see Rhaegar as a man wreathed in flames though I'm curious? I get the Lyanna wolf bit, but not the Rhaegar part at all. 

Dragons are fire made flesh. 

[Macgregor of the North]

2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Ah, it does say she uses one. Excellent. 

 

I'm inclined to take everything MMD ever says with a gigantic pinch of salt. Basically I think she is full of shit. For a start only death does not pay for life. 

We see several other examples of resurrections without any death. Yet often people take it as absolute that she is correct. 

MMD has a definite agenda and everything she does and says is suspect. Her use of the fear powder say a lot. As does her damning sounding prophesy for Dany, who it turned out wasn't infertile at all. 

I'll admit, I am not one for spirits and what not. So I tend to want to find explanations for these things. The actual dead being present in the form of spirits doesn't sit very well with me. So I look for magic. But really when you look at most things in this series they turn out to be explainable with the use of Magic. 

 

I'm not sure i follow you in regards to the part you mention about the damning sounding prophesy about Dany and her being infertile. We know she wasnt infertile before the birth of Rhaego but doesnt MMD refer to Dany being infertile after the birth etc. which we havent seen confirmed yet or no?

Yes i certainly think magic is the cause of everything thats going on with the shadows but ive saw it as the magic in the spellsong has actually conjured the dead to appear. So yes, dead spirits, but conjured by magic.

What do you think of the shadows themselves and what they represent?

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

1 minute ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I'm not sure i follow you in regards to the part you mention about the damning sounding prophesy about Dany and her being infertile. We know she wasnt infertile before the birth of Rhaego but doesnt MMD refer to Dany being infertile after the birth etc. which we havent seen confirmed yet or no?

Yes i certainly think magic is the cause of everything thats going on with the shadows but i've saw it as the magic in the spellsong has actually conjured the dead to appear. So yes, dead spirits, but conjured by magic.

What do you think of the shadows themselves and what they represent?

Danaerys isn't infertile, she has a miscarriage at the end of ADWD. 

Inorder to conjure the dead to appear, you kind of have to believe in ghosts, and spirits. Which comes hand in hand with afterlives and gods neither of which I think are true here or in ASOIAF. 

The shadows themselves I think must either be hallucinations (though given Jorah and Dany see them I doubt it, as with hallucinogenics no two people tend to see the same thing.) or Shadow binding of some description. 

As to what they represent, I'm not entirely certain, burning man, great wolf and others, we are told that not all are shaped as humans, so that means that some are. Basically I'm uncertain about them. But I do know that MMD is not to be believed and the chances are that much of what she said was bollocks. Here's a recent thread on the subject in which I explored ideas on this topic a bit more. 

 

[DarkSister1001]

3 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Ah, it does say she uses one. Excellent. 

 

I'm inclined to take everything MMD ever says with a gigantic pinch of salt. Basically I think she is full of shit. For a start only death does not pay for life. 

We see several other examples of resurrections without any death. Yet often people take it as absolute that she is correct. 

MMD has a definite agenda and everything she does and says is suspect. Her use of the fear powder say a lot. As does her damning sounding prophesy for Dany, who it turned out wasn't infertile at all. 

I'll admit, I am not one for spirits and what not. So I tend to want to find explanations for these things. The actual dead being present in the form of spirits doesn't sit very well with me. So I look for magic. But really when you look at most things in this series they turn out to be explainable with the use of Magic. 

 

Thank YOU!  I've always disliked that being the law of the land when we see Thoros bring Beric back without death. 

To the OP, the shadows nagged at me too.  They could have been any other tokens but to be a wolf and a man wreathed in fire is peculiar.  I even asked about it a few weeks ago on Small Questions.  Thank you made it a topic bc I think it's worth discussing.

Obviously the wolf is a Stark...but which one?  Does it being a shadow mean that it must be a dead Stark?  Ned, Lyanna, Brandon, Rickard are all dead.  Benjen is missing.  One was her "enemy", one her sister-in-law and a partial cause of the rebellion that lead to the downfall of her House, two killed by her father.  Or is it just a manifestation of her fear of the usurpers dogs caused by the fear powder? 

The man wreathed in fire has been more difficult for me.  Is it her dad that liked to burn people?  Her dead brothers?  Her nephew (f)Aegon or Jon?

Sorry that I have more questions than answers. 

[Macgregor of the North]

16 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Danaerys isn't infertile, she has a miscarriage at the end of ADWD. 

Inorder to conjure the dead to appear, you kind of have to believe in ghosts, and spirits. Which comes hand in hand with afterlives and gods neither of which I think are true here or in ASOIAF. 

The shadows themselves I think must either be hallucinations (though given Jorah and Dany see them I doubt it, as with hallucinogenics no two people tend to see the same thing.) or Shadow binding of some description. 

As to what they represent, I'm not entirely certain, burning man, great wolf and others, we are told that not all are shaped as humans, so that means that some are. Basically I'm uncertain about them. But I do know that MMD is not to be believed and the chances are that much of what she said was bollocks. Here's a recent thread on the subject in which I explored ideas on this topic a bit more. 

 

Has the miscarriage ever been confirmed anywhere? 

In any event MMD's damning words also contained the sentence "bear a living child" which hasn't happened yet so we can't really say MMD was bullshitting there until Dany births a living child. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

the M/C isn't "confirmed" but it's pretty damn obvious to anybody with a vague knowledge of the pregnancy, and menstrual cycles. 

She is having a lot of unprotected penetrative sex, she hasn't had her moons blood for about three cycles, she is bleeding at the wrong time of the month, she is experiencing cramps and it is a lot heavier than usual. 

To deny it is a M/C seems, well a bit foolish. 

Now did it happen because there is something wrong with her Cervix and it no longer is capable of keeping tight shut once her womb expands enough to exert pressure on it? is it just a random M/C, is it caused by her having contracted dysentery or is it due to the berries she ate? 

Now if she has an incompetent cervix, MMD would have to be a HELL of a MW to spot it, as even in the modern world it usually is not picked up upon until a woman has had several M/C's. I'm inclined to think she isn't some sort of super midwife with mad skills. 

She does say until you bear a living child. And I am inclined to wonder if the Dany dies in childbirth crowd may be correct, and that MMD is saying she will only be reunited with Drogo upon her death. After all her being a practitioner of many magics doesn't rule out her believing in an after life. I've met many perfectly rational people who believe in god after all. In which case does MMD know something we don't? I mention it in one of my posts on the above thread. But might MMD have seen Dany die after giving birth in a vision, we know from TP&TQ that non red priests can scry in the flames and other elemental manifestations. 

[Macgregor of the North]

4 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

the M/C isn't "confirmed" but it's pretty damn obvious to anybody with a vague knowledge of the pregnancy, and menstrual cycles. 

She is having a lot of unprotected penetrative sex, she hasn't had her moons blood for about three cycles, she is bleeding at the wrong time of the month, she is experiencing cramps and it is a lot heavier than usual. 

To deny it is a M/C seems, well a bit foolish. 

Now did it happen because there is something wrong with her Cervix and it no longer is capable of keeping tight shut once her womb expands enough to exert pressure on it? is it just a random M/C, is it caused by her having contracted dysentery or is it due to the berries she ate? 

Now if she has an incompetent cervix, MMD would have to be a HELL of a MW to spot it, as even in the modern world it usually is not picked up upon until a woman has had several M/C's. I'm inclined to think she isn't some sort of super midwife with mad skills. 

She does say until you bear a living child. And I am inclined to wonder if the Dany dies in childbirth crowd may be correct, and that MMD is saying she will only be reunited with Drogo upon her death. After all her being a practitioner of many magics doesn't rule out her believing in an after life. I've met many perfectly rational people who believe in god after all. In which case does MMD know something we don't? I mention it in one of my posts on the above thread. But might MMD have seen Dany die after giving birth in a vision, we know from TP&TQ that non red priests can scry in the flames and other elemental manifestations. 

I wasn't saying anything 'foolish' like denying the miscarriage I was only asking if it was confirmed lol, nothing more. I have a more than vague knowledge of pregnancy and what comes with it, my partner funnily enough is expecting our next child but that isn't the topic of discussion, neither is it really if she miscarried or not. It's whether MMD is bullshitting with everything she says and we can't really say she's a full on bullshitter at all can we?

[Macgregor of the North]

16 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

the M/C isn't "confirmed" but it's pretty damn obvious to anybody with a vague knowledge of the pregnancy, and menstrual cycles. 

She is having a lot of unprotected penetrative sex, she hasn't had her moons blood for about three cycles, she is bleeding at the wrong time of the month, she is experiencing cramps and it is a lot heavier than usual. 

To deny it is a M/C seems, well a bit foolish. 

Now did it happen because there is something wrong with her Cervix and it no longer is capable of keeping tight shut once her womb expands enough to exert pressure on it? is it just a random M/C, is it caused by her having contracted dysentery or is it due to the berries she ate? 

Now if she has an incompetent cervix, MMD would have to be a HELL of a MW to spot it, as even in the modern world it usually is not picked up upon until a woman has had several M/C's. I'm inclined to think she isn't some sort of super midwife with mad skills. 

She does say until you bear a living child. And I am inclined to wonder if the Dany dies in childbirth crowd may be correct, and that MMD is saying she will only be reunited with Drogo upon her death. After all her being a practitioner of many magics doesn't rule out her believing in an after life. I've met many perfectly rational people who believe in god after all. In which case does MMD know something we don't? I mention it in one of my posts on the above thread. But might MMD have seen Dany die after giving birth in a vision, we know from TP&TQ that non red priests can scry in the flames and other elemental manifestations. 

Also, the way I read it, MMD means that when Drogo will return to his former self, not when him and Dany will be reunited. That wasn't the question Dany asked either. 

 

"When will he be as he was?" Dany demanded. 

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."